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#450831 - 10/21/13 03:12 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: BuffaloCO]
SoccerStar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 915
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: BuffaloCO
[quote=SoccerStar]
Quote:

...a pedophile of which there are no shortage among the devout (not just the Catholic clergy conspiracy issue but also Ultra-Orthodox / Haredi Jews and the Amish have institutionalized pederasty and the protection thereof - and that's just in the U.S.).
Matt


I think this statement is the real reason behind the comment. That being to say yet again to believers that "there are pedophiles in your ranks!" Seriously? We know that. We also know pedo's are in the ranks of every group of people, not just people of faith, so what's the point?


That was not my meaning at all and I apologize if it came out that way.

I was not the person who brought up pedos at all. We had been talking about the atheist argument for morality, and that led to someone else's counterpoint that, hey, everybody believes in SOMETHING - even Muslims, pedophiles, Nazis, and ad execs. Which cannot lead to anything other than pointing out that *this only further decouples the purported religious requirement for morality*. I also pointed out that the Muslim was a believer; I neglected the ad exec and the Nazi, and they could go either way.

My point was that there are material, evolved explanations for what we call morality, based on the human need for protection in groups. That is "where it comes from," from that perspective.


And Still - regardless of this academic matter, you and your family are in my thoughts and I hope your step-niece has a full and rapid recovery.


Matt

_________________________
My story

"Don't think it hasn't been a little slice of heaven just because it hasn't!" --Bugs Bunny

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#450841 - 10/21/13 04:12 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 415
Loc: USA
Yet, no direct link to any other groups with pedophiles, just believers, with the "there are no shortage in the ranks of the devout" added in for emphasis, so that's why it feels like an attack to me, and still does.

Then there is the decoupling the purported religious requirement for morality comment. I don't claim that you have to be a person of faith to have morals, and I don't know anyone who does. Our faith, however, is a source of morality for us in how we understand and define it, and every bit as valid as an academic argument. You don't have to agree. Again, not saying you have to have faith to be a moral or good person.

"My point was that there are material, evolved explanations for what we call morality, based on the human need for protection in groups. That is "where it comes from," from that perspective."

On that last point it seems to be you are saying a sense of morals or values can only come from a human experience, needs, etc. and from no where else. For me it comes from that and also my faith. If that means we both treat each other with kindness, why is the source of my moral view a problem? If either of us broke the law and harmed another person, we would face the same penalty, well depending on the judge or jury maybe.
_________________________
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.” - Plato

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#450857 - 10/21/13 05:56 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: BuffaloCO]
SoccerStar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 915
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: BuffaloCO
Yet, no direct link to any other groups with pedophiles, just believers, with the "there are no shortage in the ranks of the devout" added in for emphasis, so that's why it feels like an attack to me, and still does.


Then that was a case of me being too subtle for my own good. "No shortage within the faithful" is deliberately not the same as "exclusive to the faithful" - it leaves implicit that pedos can be among the irreligious as well. Again, for not having made that point clear I am sorry.


Quote:
Then there is the decoupling the purported religious requirement for morality comment. I don't claim that you have to be a person of faith to have morals, and I don't know anyone who does.


See, funny thing - that was what I was taking as the message of several prior posts.

Quote:
"My point was that there are material, evolved explanations for what we call morality, based on the human need for protection in groups. That is "where it comes from," from that perspective."

On that last point it seems to be you are saying a sense of morals or values can only come from a human experience, needs, etc. and from no where else. For me it comes from that and also my faith. If that means we both treat each other with kindness, why is the source of my moral view a problem?


It isn't. I said "from that perspective" in order to specify that I was answering the question of how someone with an atheist perspective could explain morality. I did not mean to cast any aspersions on other methods and hope my word choice did not cause bad feelings.



Matt
_________________________
My story

"Don't think it hasn't been a little slice of heaven just because it hasn't!" --Bugs Bunny

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#450908 - 10/21/13 11:32 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 415
Loc: USA
All fair enough I think. This whole path to healing is so different for everyone. We have different stories, and shared hurts, would be nice if we could find a shared path, or share a path for a while. Maybe that's one more thing abuse takes from us, the ability to share a path safely. Still, we talk and that's a start.
_________________________
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.” - Plato

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#450912 - 10/22/13 12:04 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3101
Loc: O Kanada
i have a hope that people come into the "spirituality" forum to bring more spirituality in their lives.
why else would someone be curious enough to come to this section of the website?

even if someone feels the need to resist and ridicule it,
as i once did...
it is still a good thing to experience exposure to god's love, (if only a dim reflection).

a believer is like the moon, trying to reflect sun shine to the night side of the planet.
the moon has it's own dark side, and cannot continuously provide light.
it can only function according to the position it holds relative to the sun, that is the source of the light it wishes to reflect.
even at maximum, the imperfect light reflected by the moon can never compare to direct sunshine.
at minimum, the moon is a black hole in the sky, that will even deny you the tiny light of distant stars.
it is hard to for any mortal to confirm or deny the existence of immortal beings.
even those who worship gods cannot understand them, let alone explain them.

i have always believed that any definition of god is blasphemy.
to claim a monopoly on morality is not only presumptuous, it is preposterous and perilous.

we can only wonder and ponder the beauty and horror of this life and death, as measured by our own experience.
the creature cannot even comprehend the creation, let alone the creator.
_________________________
Victor|Victim

War
Love
Poetry

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#450922 - 10/22/13 02:35 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: victor-victim]
Jacob S Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 592
Originally Posted By: victor-victim
i have a hope that people come into the "spirituality" forum to bring more spirituality in their lives.
why else would someone be curious enough to come to this section of the website?


Views of religion/spirituality can affect healing. Being able to process our views of spirituality in light of what we have been through might be useful. I would think the purpose of this forum should be as much about helping us shake off unhealthy aspects of this issue, since that is a necessary step in coming to a more healthy position. I know when I first started being interested in this forum I was hoping for a place where I could deal with how UNhelpful religion/spirituality has been to me. I have since realized attempting to articulate that in a way that doesn't make people mad is too difficult to be worth it. But, at least for me, that was the reason I first became interested in this forum.
_________________________
Like a spent gladiator
crawling in the colosseum dust
who can count on his remaining limbs
all the people he can trust.
Like the one who stands behind him
cheering him on
Estatic when he stands defiant,
wild with abandon when he's gone

just stay alive.
do whatever you need to.
you are worth it.

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#450970 - 10/22/13 11:12 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 415
Loc: USA
I'm not sure Jacob, but maybe it's better to focus on things that do work and not those that are unhelpful. I don't post in several areas of the site as some of the ideas there get me angry, frustrated, whatever. So now I don't even go and read there now. Those other threads help people, and my thought is why add to their pain but adding comments that are negative about how the topic has not or could not work for me? It would not help me, and make others angry, so there is no benefit either way. Just my thoughts, but I am sorry you feel slammed in this thread.
_________________________
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.” - Plato

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#450996 - 10/22/13 04:10 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: BuffaloCO]
Jacob S Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 592
Buffalo,

I appreciate the response. I don't feel slammed in this thread but thank you for the sensitivity (and yes I have chosen to become mostly inactive on this forum for reasons similar to what you state). I was responding to Victor-Victim's question about why besides wanting to increase spirituality someone might be curious about this part of the site. A spiritual/religious background can still have influence and be something needing to be worked through even if we are not currently religious.
_________________________
Like a spent gladiator
crawling in the colosseum dust
who can count on his remaining limbs
all the people he can trust.
Like the one who stands behind him
cheering him on
Estatic when he stands defiant,
wild with abandon when he's gone

just stay alive.
do whatever you need to.
you are worth it.

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#451022 - 10/22/13 10:10 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
ModTeam Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 690
This topic is closed.

It appears this significant topic has reached the end of it's course. Using the discussion board to explore opinions, situations, thoughts and emotions is beneficial and healthy, until such time that the discussion undermines the goals and purposes of MaleSurvivor, which is to co-create a comfortable and safe environment for the healing recovery of male sexual abuse victims. This topic has been thoroughly discussed, delving into academic issues in debate does not promote the mission of this site. Site management continually strives to provide an environment safe for the purpose of pursuing one’s recovery from the effects of past sexual abuse. We strongly feel that while religious topics will be posted, debating on the site in any forum needs to be secondary to healthy community building, that any difference in belief or thoughts be shared, then respectfully deferred for the community, save for private conversations between equitable parties.

Your cooperation on this matter is appreciated.

Regards

The Moderators
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