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#450785 - 10/21/13 10:21 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Still]
SoccerStar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 915
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Still
Serious Question:
If a person does not believe in God or some deity, what do/ought we believe-in?


That since this life is all you get, it matters. Since earthly justice is the only justice you can ever hope for, work towards it ever harder. That community, empathy, learning, kindness, and sustainable / non-destructive behaviors should be encouraged.

Honestly, the emotional life and day-to-day values spectrum of your typical atheist is no different from your typical believer. Chocolate cake still tastes good regardless.
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#450787 - 10/21/13 10:24 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 411
Loc: USA
I don't agree that earthly justice is all you can hope for. Nor do I accept that the day to day values spectrum of an atheist and a believer are the same. Sorry, but not buying into either one.
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#450788 - 10/21/13 10:29 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
SoccerStar Offline
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Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 915
Loc: New York
What evidence (like, behavioral outcomes) leads you to believe their day-to-day emotions and values are different?
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#450807 - 10/21/13 12:34 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
tbkkfile Offline


Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 112
Loc: Surrey, United Kingdom
BuffaloCo - You have your beliefs and I guess that one of them is that God will judge you by your actions. I happen to believe that there is no God but my actions and my day to day values are no less than one who believes that there is.
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#450810 - 10/21/13 01:13 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: SoccerStar]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6317
Loc: 2 NATO Nations
Originally Posted By: SoccerStar
That since this life is all you get, it matters. Since earthly justice is the only justice you can ever hope for, work towards it ever harder. That community, empathy, learning, kindness, and sustainable / non-destructive behaviors should be encouraged.


Looks like we have the beginnings of an outline:

I - All to be encouraged: Below

A. Community
-
-
-
B. Empathy
-
-
C. Learning
-
-
D. Kindness

My very non-sarcastic, non-"oh yeah???" question regarding this outline thus far: "Based on what?"

It seems we have a basic understanding of "good" items. A muslim may say "learning? Learning the Koran and the women don't learn....or drive."

"Kindness? To whom?" the Nazi asks.

"Community?....yeah....the marketing whiz comments..."a ready-made market!" Wrings his clammy hands and dollar-signs appear over his head.

The Pedophile would say "hey...I really need this kid and I truly don't think it hurts him to have such a fine elder in his life." So he's right??? or is he wrong?

Where did our fundamental behaviours come from?

What I'm getting at, is; the atheist adheres to some codes of human conduct. But I'm wondering where they think those ideas came from? A communal basic idea of good-and-bad, right-and-wrong have to have an original source.
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#450811 - 10/21/13 01:24 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: tbkkfile]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 411
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: tbkkfile
BuffaloCo - ...my actions and my day to day values are no less than one who believes that there is.


I did not say they were less, I said they are not the same. There is a difference.
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“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.” - Plato

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#450813 - 10/21/13 01:34 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: SoccerStar]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 411
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: SoccerStar
What evidence (like, behavioral outcomes) leads you to believe their day-to-day emotions and values are different?


Kind of a broad question and more then a little off topic as well. I won't be dragged down a road of comparing this vs. that either. Clearly to me, people of all walks have different values and emotions even within the same "groups".
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“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.” - Plato

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#450821 - 10/21/13 02:35 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
SoccerStar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 915
Loc: New York
Quote:
It seems we have a basic understanding of "good" items. A muslim may say "learning? Learning the Koran and the women don't learn....or drive."

"Kindness? To whom?" the Nazi asks.

"Community?....yeah....the marketing whiz comments..."a ready-made market!" Wrings his clammy hands and dollar-signs appear over his head.

The Pedophile would say "hey...I really need this kid and I truly don't think it hurts him to have such a fine elder in his life." So he's right??? or is he wrong?


This is a different discussion: instead of "what do you believe in if you don't believe in God?," we have an example of a Muslim who presumably does, a pedophile of which there are no shortage among the devout (not just the Catholic clergy conspiracy issue but also Ultra-Orthodox / Haredi Jews and the Amish have institutionalized pederasty and the protection thereof - and that's just in the U.S.).

So since a believer and an atheist can each do good or evil things, the question really is:

"What makes some beliefs better than others?"

Once you accept the underlying premises of empathy, respect, order, and the value of life, a supernatural agent makes no difference.

Quote:
Where did our fundamental behaviours come from? What I'm getting at, is; the atheist adheres to some codes of human conduct. But I'm wondering where they think those ideas came from? A communal basic idea of good-and-bad, right-and-wrong have to have an original source.


Humans are social animals - it is part of our evolutionary history. We are safest, we thrive, physically and emotionally, in communities. Those communities are best maintained with a minimum of in-group violence, theft, and dishonesty - and for the life of me I cannot think of a single human culture that does NOT forbid in-group violence, theft, and dishonesty.

Highly intelligent, we are not only self-aware but able to conceptualize that other humans have feelings like we do - our ability to sympathize with them reflects our own mental health and proper socialization.

If we had evolved as sentient, oh, crocodiles, which are independent, antisocial, and cannibalistic, those would have been our norms - our "good." Instead we evolved from highly social creatures and have adapted towards behaviors that for the most part keep that society going, by seeing other people as we see ourselves.

I've highlighted "in-group" many times because humans are also aggressive and warlike, in most cases extending no sympathy to their enemies when crime and slaughter are quicker alternatives. The more mentally-healthy people can properly conceptualize the emotional lives of others, the larger that "in-group" becomes: hence, white abolitionists.

Our big evolved brains are complicated things, and complicated things can go wrong. People in all cultures, of any faith or none at all, can be psychotic, sadistic, clinically lacking in empathy.

But if you want to know where "good behavior" can come from for most people (including most atheists), that's where.


Matt
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#450824 - 10/21/13 02:43 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6317
Loc: 2 NATO Nations
Well, I just got a call that my 4-year-old step-niece is at death's door from a respiratory and systemic sepsis. I know to whom I will petition for healing, miracles, or intersession.

And I have seen miracles with my own two eyes.
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#450826 - 10/21/13 02:55 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: SoccerStar]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 411
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: SoccerStar
[quote]
...a pedophile of which there are no shortage among the devout (not just the Catholic clergy conspiracy issue but also Ultra-Orthodox / Haredi Jews and the Amish have institutionalized pederasty and the protection thereof - and that's just in the U.S.).
Matt


I think this statement is the real reason behind the comment. That being to say yet again to believers that "there are pedophiles in your ranks!" Seriously? We know that. We also know pedo's are in the ranks of every group of people, not just people of faith, so what's the point? To come into the spirituality thread just to attack believers for that reason? A lot of people find healing through their faith, and I don't say that has to work for anyone who is not a believer. It works for me and many others however. Why is that a problem?
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