Newest Members
SiegmundNYC, TheGreatWhat, MyNameIsPaul, serenity38, vivo
12486 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
Can-tex (45), cbchorn (41)
Who's Online
2 registered (2 invisible), 23 Guests and 10 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12487 Members
74 Forums
64149 Topics
447618 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#450414 - 10/16/13 10:24 PM Acting Out IN Childhood
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6601
Loc: FEMA Region 1
you know...during the hell-years. How do we justify peer-to-peer "activity" when it is actually acting-out and the axiom of "children cannot consent" remains true as granite mountains?

How do we explain US? OUR actions? There was a complete absence of malice, but so what? How does that help the kids from the hood?

This is on the front-burner of my stove and its one big-ass grease-fire, threatening to take me down...and I do mean "down!"
_________________________
I'm "that guy."

Top
#450415 - 10/16/13 10:38 PM Re: Acting Out IN Childhood [Re: Still]
SoccerStar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 918
Loc: New York
Children cannot consent to sex acts with adults - the level of maturity, responsibility, and understanding has been accepted by society as fundamentally different.

This does not NECESSARILY follow for sexualized behavior between young people themselves, as in many cases the intellectual / emotional levels are equal and no one is being taken advantage of or manipulated. There's a reason why so many states have "Romeo and Juliet" laws on the books and why "playing doctor" is not illegal.

Obviously that is NOT the case in instances of true peer-to-peer abuse.

I think we can "justify" childhood horseplay if all such behaviors are:
-consensual
-mutual
-enjoyable and meant to be enjoyed by all involved
-avoidable / end-able by all involved

It's when one person gets forced into it, restrained, hurt, or is always in the servicing role for another, that you find so many more cases of abuse and damage. That isn't sharing experimentation - that's domination, control, selfishness, cruelty.

When I hear "acting out in childhood," I think of a Law & Order:SVU episode where a ~13-year-old boy who has been raped by his mom's boyfriend later gets one of his same-aged friends alone and rapes the other boy - with confusion, trauma, shock, fear, complaints to parents, the whole horror show. The original young victim is then the subject of the entire episode but in a near-totally sympathetic light; the show wanted it to be understood that he was just careening on a course that the perp had thrown him down. There was no further mention of the boy who had been peer-raped, no consequences for it, at all. THAT's acting-out... and it's not the right way to handle it.

I am not a healthcare professional, so I don't really know what the right way to handle it IS. I just know it's important to draw distinctions between harmless homoerotic horseplay and inescapable and unwanted exploitation.


Matt
_________________________
My story

"Don't think it hasn't been a little slice of Heaven just because it hasn't!" --Bugs Bunny

Top
#450425 - 10/16/13 11:24 PM Re: Acting Out IN Childhood [Re: Still]
Jude Offline


Registered: 08/09/12
Posts: 1596
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: Still
How do we justify peer-to-peer "activity" when it is actually acting-out
Hey Still,

My guess is that the "activity" you describe, was not forced on the other parties.

If it was through force or manipulation, perhaps you need to acknowlege what it really was and work on forgiving yourself. You were a kid yourself, perhaps acting out of what you were taught was "normal" behavior. Your moral compass was way off of true north, through no fault of your own.

Of all the burdens we carry, I think the fear of being abusers ourselves is the most horrible and insidious. Please try not to make this a bigger burden than it has to be.

Jude
_________________________
Seems I've got to have a change of scene
Every night I have the strangest dreams
Imprisoned by the way it could have been
Left here on my own or so it seems
I've got to leave before I start to scream
Joe Cocker

Top
#450436 - 10/17/13 05:16 AM Re: Acting Out IN Childhood [Re: Still]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6601
Loc: FEMA Region 1
****POSSIBLE TRIGGERS****


Thank you for the reply guys. I had alway thought it was within bounds of 'normal' child sex-play. I've researched the psych articles and studies on it for decades just trying to make sure it was OK.

There was no force. I don't recall any coercion, except that I would talk them right into it. Without failure, I would talk the other party into 'activity.' So if it were normal childhood sex-play, I sure initiated a lot of it.

As for age; the two friends that would engage in it most regularly with me were older by one year and one was less than a year younger but one school-grade down. My problem with this is that I knew what I was doing, and I knew it because of the psychotic, violent, abject, rapes that I was regularly dragged to by boys that were 4-years older. So I was passing along the torch, virus, addiction, interest, whatever... But whenever I got together with either one of my two friends (separately, as neither one knew the other), for any reason...help with math, spanish, model car building...even outdoor stuff like skateboarding or bikes ... sex would break-out without failure.

A therapist said that when children engage in sex-play, its not a 'sexually charged' event, as it is for people past puberty. Well...it was for me...and likely them, as it went on from about age ten to fading-away at 18. They hit puberty at 11 or 12, leaving me in the dust (physically). They seemed as driven to 'get the job done' as much as Dean (perp #1) or the other much older boys as I did not even begin puberty until 15.5. I think that aspect of me was most appealing to Dean.

When I spoke with the ADA in charge of sex crimes, she explained that what happened to me from the violent gang-of-four was not even 'rape' back then...there was no such crime in the statutes. Rather, it was 'simple juvenile assault' and would probably never see a courtroom - ever.

But am I using the same lame excuses that even Dean might bring to a confrontation or a courtroom? Did I lead others down a damaging path by introducing "what I knew" and did with the perps? I'm an absolute wreck over this.
_________________________
I'm "that guy."

Top
#450440 - 10/17/13 06:09 AM Re: Acting Out IN Childhood [Re: Still]
Jacob S Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 614
Loc: where the shadows lie
From what I know of your story, Still, you can't at all compare what you did to what your perps did to you. They were much older, they persisted even after you attempted to stop them, and they used violence and alcohol. That is not at all the same thing as what it sounds like you did with your friends (I apologize of course if I'm remembering and understanding any of that wrong. I don't mean to assume anything).

You were doing your best to make sense of a situation you shouldn't have been placed in. Its not your fault. I want to say more but its all sticking and won't come out. Just know that I also acted out as a kid and I've asked myself the same question. If a kid drives a car and hits another kid, its neither kid's fault. Its the bastard who forced the kid behind the wheel in the first place. You didn't ask to be put in the seat of a vehicle you couldn't possibly manage, but once your there the doors lock and there is no way out. The only thing to do is to try to figure out how to deal. That's what you did and no one can blame you for it.
_________________________


Top
#450448 - 10/17/13 08:31 AM Re: Acting Out IN Childhood [Re: Still]
newground Offline
Chatroom Moderator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 10/11/11
Posts: 811
Loc: michigan
still man
I think this is one more way that we tend to take on the perps responsibility. I see it as very similar to the arguments that parents have made when their child takes a gun and hurts someone. the fact is they did that. the child was no more than an extension of their own arm. the abusers set you up with feelings that you didn't understand in a way that you could not control emotionally.you didn't come close to having the tools to manage that, none of us did. I know I couldn't and I'm amazed the acting out was not much more probably a really good thing we lived such an isolated kind of existence. it really was not you fault man though I know always feel some responsibility because the actions were ours. The place of healing comes when we understand that because we had no way of putting that stuff in context. is it normal? is it bad or good? If it is bad am I bad? it is all a part of trying to make sense out of insanity
hope that helps
jeff
_________________________
Either I will find a way, or I will make one.
Philip Sidney

Top
#450452 - 10/17/13 09:52 AM Re: Acting Out IN Childhood [Re: Still]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6601
Loc: FEMA Region 1
Back then I never heard my name: I was "fagboy, Looney-Tune, Bugsy (as in the bunny), little fagit." My self-worth (I don't know what self esteem is) was non-existent. I mean it. I had zero, zed-zip self-worth...thus I would do anything for anyone. I had to, as the entire neighborhood was primed to destroy me at-will. That was a whole lot different than proactive quests for 'buddy-sex.'

I see what you are saying guys...but someone dumped a load of 'potential' on me. That is, there is potentially a load of guilt waiting to get me. And now I'm fearful that I worked to attain my worldly dreams and had them torturously taken from me, because of this.

I feel like the names, hatred and gang-mentality thrown at me were justified. I Still hold that little boy I was. I rescued him, but we've got chains that will only let us go so far away from this crap.
_________________________
I'm "that guy."

Top
#450497 - 10/17/13 07:40 PM Re: Acting Out IN Childhood [Re: Still]
Onesimus75 Offline


Registered: 08/22/13
Posts: 158
Loc: Minnesota
I'll say this much, still.

The names were not justified. You did not deserve a single one. You deserved kindness, compassion, and inclusion!

The hatred was horrible, and not your fault! Little kids can be vicious to one another even without abuse wounds, and what was done to you just cracked the shell of your defenses to make you that much more vulnerable, but that isn't your fault, it's the fault of the boys who cracked it. It isn't deserved, because you deserve love, not hatred. You deserved the exact opposite of what happened. You were worth the exact opposite.

When you had sexual realtions branded on your innocent kid's brain, that was not your fault! Not! Your! Fault! When those patterns showed up, 'cause you didn't have the tools available to choose another way... I don't blame you.

Please hear me on that.

One of the sayings that I keep going back to is that "someone who is full hates honey, but someone who is starving thinks that even what is bitter seems sweet". You were socially isolated, rejected, and starving for a connection, and the counterfeit sexual connection of abuse was all you had to go on. What other human decision could you at such a young age make? To starve to death at heart? I would no more ask that of an abused kid then I would ask someone in a wheelchair to walk!

I'm so sorry that you feel chained to this guilt and shame, because it isn't yours.

It isn't yours.

It's not your fault.
_________________________
We are not defined by our faults, or our wounds, but by the truth within us, which nothing can take away.

Top
#450500 - 10/17/13 07:56 PM Re: Acting Out IN Childhood [Re: Onesimus75]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6601
Loc: FEMA Region 1
Originally Posted By: Onesimus75


When you had sexual realtions branded on your innocent kid's brain, that was not your fault! Not! Your! Fault! When those patterns showed up, 'cause you didn't have the tools available to choose another way... I don't blame you.

Please hear me on that.

One of the sayings that I keep going back to is that "someone who is full hates honey, but someone who is starving thinks that even what is bitter seems sweet". You were socially isolated, rejected, and starving for a connection, and the counterfeit sexual connection of abuse was all you had to go on. What other human decision could you at such a young age make? To starve to death at heart? I would no more ask that of an abused kid then I would ask someone in a wheelchair to walk!

I'm so sorry that you feel chained to this guilt and shame, because it isn't yours.

It isn't yours.

It's not your fault.


This is beyond "the hard-part." But you guys are the first to hear it and the first to say what you are saying. I've felt locked into shame-n-blame for participation in everything since I tried to use a knife to defend myself.

That was the true end of me. I died that die. I really did. I can flashback that day at-will...in perfect Polaroid detail. I can see, feel and smell everything. I remember where I hid. How wet and chapped my face was. How I tried to figure out where to stab myself to take my 8-yo life in settling the score for the neighborhood. Other children and adults hunting me like a dog. From then-on, I would have paid anything to BE a dog. That is when and where I learned guilt...learned to draw and assume guilt like a Death-row inmate.

I truly don't know why this is coming back now. I don't even know if I'll survive it.

Init sad that no one even thought to send me to therapy or something? anything? too late.
_________________________
I'm "that guy."

Top
#450501 - 10/17/13 08:28 PM Re: Acting Out IN Childhood [Re: Still]
Onesimus75 Offline


Registered: 08/22/13
Posts: 158
Loc: Minnesota
Not too late, Still. You're alive. You can survive this. There is hope for you, for all of us.

Hang in there!

I know what you mean about the Polaroid thing. Me too.

And I know that saying "it isn't your fault" feels like it bounces off like water on rock.

Keep enduring. please keep hearing that it isn't your fault. It takes time, like water eroding rock.

I have wanted to die because of the abuse many times. But I'm glad now that I didn't because there has been some progress, some hope. Everything didn't go away, but I am coping much better these days.

You're not alone. It wasn't your fault. I wish I could go back and take all that happened to you away, but I can't do that for myself or anyone else. All I can do is say the truth as I think about it. Hang in there.
_________________________
We are not defined by our faults, or our wounds, but by the truth within us, which nothing can take away.

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  ModTeam, TJ jeff 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.