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#447657 - 09/19/13 04:09 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: victor-victim]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 734
Loc: NJ
I completely disagree.
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My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

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#447658 - 09/19/13 04:19 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3598
Loc: O Kanada
all my life i knew how to give and take,
but, through years of therapy, i have learned to share and receive.

if you consider a blessing as a gift of love,
that may help you avoid being offended by good intentions.
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Victor|Victim

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#447661 - 09/19/13 04:48 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3598
Loc: O Kanada
Originally Posted By: Castle
Im asking to consider the trigger effect of adding/ signing " blessings" or other connotation in the main forum.

I certainly am not telling anybody to be or not to be religious ( sorta definition of a nonthiest)


both of those are impossible to do.

i am not here to convert or control other people.

i guess that makes me a nontheist, too?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/blessing
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

the word blessing is inherently religious.
i used to get offended every time someone said the word "god" or "bless" or even "love".
it caused me all kinds of frustration and grief.
it provoked all kinds of negative reactions in me.
there was no way to stop it from happening.
i couldn't get around it, so i had to get over it to get past it.

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Victor|Victim

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Poetry

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#447665 - 09/19/13 05:09 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
traveler Online   confused
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3518
Loc: somewhere in Africa
Castle –

I think one of the misunderstandings here is that many non-believers seem to think that a believer’s faith is something optional that can be “worn” or not like an accessory. As if – when you know that someone hates hats – you can just not put one on when you are going to be around them. In reality, those of us who are trying to be followers of Jesus rather than a member of a religion, consider our faith to be not only a core value – but part of our hearts and souls and the deepest part of our identities.

For me to deny or divorce or hide or ignore that part of myself would be like attempting to erase huge chunks of my life history and memories and emotions. It is not something that I can do. It is not something I should be expected or asked to do. It is not something that I would ever ask of another survivor. And I don’t think that all my interactions should be relegated and limited to this spirituality forum as if it is a ghetto for my particular minority that I dare not set foot outside.

I know that religions and churches and religious people are often guilty of abuse and mention of them can cause triggers. I was abused by a very religious step-dad. And I was emotionally and verbally and financially and spiritually abused by a religious cult that I was in for 7 years. But I do not blame all religious people for the suffering I endured or expect no one to ever mention such things in my presence.

Some of my worst abuse was at the hands of the step-dad and took place in the family home. I do not expect everyone to censor all mention of families or step-parents or homes from their conversations.

More of my abuse was perpetrated by athletes and scouts at school and camp-outs. Again – I am careful in reading about such scenarios and am prepared for triggers – but I don’t insist on such themes and topics being edited from the forums for my comfort.

One perp in my history was a gay man – I do not lash out at every gay man because of that. Nor do I accuse gays on the forum to be an exclusive clique. They are obviously a sub-category – but so what? so are left-handed people, members of the Republican party, red-haired people, those who are allergic to peanuts, and those who hate tomatoes.

I think you are being hyper-sensitive and taking your own issues out on a small minority. Why does “blessing” even have to be an issue? Take it to mean “best wishes” – which I think is what is really intended. And if you can’t separate the word from a religious context, consider it to be meaningless – since you don’t believe in a deity anyway.

I agree that no one should “push” or “force” their religion on others – and I hope I have never done anything that could be construed in that way – I consciously attempt to reserve discussion of my faith for this forum – unless some passing mention is so integral a part of a bigger story’s context that it would be dishonest to leave it out. but what you have described is far from proselytizing or insisting that everyone accept or believe the same way .

I do not mean to be confrontational or argumentative or disrespectful of your views. But I hope you will consider that other’s views have equal validity.

lee


Edited by traveler (10/02/13 09:51 PM)
_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


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#447667 - 09/19/13 05:15 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: traveler]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3598
Loc: O Kanada
Originally Posted By: traveler
Castle –

I think one of the misunderstandings here is that many non-believers seem to think that a believer’s faith is something optional that can be “worn” or not like an accessory. As if – when you know that someone hates hats – you can just not put one on when you are going to be around them. In reality, those of us who are trying to be followers of Jesus rather than a member of a religion, consider our faith to be not only a core value – but part of our hearts and souls and the deepest part of our identities.

For me to deny or divorce or hide or ignore that part of myself would be like a an Afro-American pretending not to be black or a gay man acting as though his orientation was not important, or like attempting to erase huge chunks of my life history and memories and emotions. It is not something that I can do. It is not something I should be expected or asked to do. It is not something that I would ever ask of another survivor. And I don’t think that all my interactions should be relegated and limited to this spirituality forum as if it is a ghetto for my particular minority that I dare not set foot outside.

Why does “blessing” even have to be an issue? Take it to mean “best wishes” – which I think is what is really intended. And if you can’t separate the word from a religious context, consider it to be meaningless – since you don’t believe in a deity anyway.

I agree that no one should “push” or “force” their religion on others – and I hope I have never done anything that could be construed in that way – I consciously attempt to reserve discussion of my faith for this forum – unless some passing mention is so integral a part of a bigger story’s context that it would be dishonest to leave it out. but what you have described is far from proselytizing or insisting that everyone accept or believe the same way .

I do not mean to be confrontational or argumentative or disrespectful of your views. But I hope you will consider that other’s views have equal validity.

lee



ditto
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#447691 - 09/19/13 08:55 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 734
Loc: NJ
We each have our opinions.

I'm happy not to have religion/religious people in my life or recovery.

It would be easier for me to "get over it", if it was equal and those who have negative feelings twords religion were allowed to express it.
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#447692 - 09/19/13 09:02 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 734
Loc: NJ
It doesn't mean "best wishes" that's why.... why not just say. " best wishes" If that's what you mean.

I believe in the big bang and monkeys and stuff...I don't believe and let there be light... because somebody wrote it in a book.

I saw some great quotes from Einstein and some other really enlightened people about religion...I would post them but suspect they would get pulled.

Enjoy your healing.
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My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

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#447700 - 09/19/13 10:12 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
Jacob S Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 614
Loc: where the shadows lie
Castle,

I agree with you. I don't want to have a "blessed" day. Because the "blessing" is from a source that:
1. I don't think exists
2. I wouldn't want anything to do with if he did exist. If I went into specifics about why, it would be considered debating, but Thomas Paine has a couple of quotes that sum up the reasoning nicely if people care to read him.

I would like people to understand and respect that. There is a difference between saying "I want you to have a good day" and "I want the God of I Sam. 15:3, the God of Num. 31:15-18, to give you a good day." I would want nothing from such a creature if he existed. I do not say that to argue or insult, just to it make clear that it is something I feel strongly about. I wish people would respect me and not try to give me what I do not want.

I don't find this place equally respectful of both positions.

I find the community here very supportive, except when it comes to assumptions about non-theists. I've been told that non-theists are more prone to be immoral, that they are more likely to be perverts, and that they cannot be healed. I'm the kind of guy that if there was any evidence behind these claims I'd be ok with them. But its not factual. Its just as prejudicial as people who assume priests are more likely to be pedophiles. But I have to be very careful how I express that here, because someone says something like that and everyone just nods . . . and if I try to make a fuss about it, I'm the one who gets shot down for being argumentative (or worse, just ignored like my opinion doesn't matter). Even though I think I have a right for being angry in those cases, just as a Christian would if the situation was reversed. So now (unless I find it really egregious) I try hard to say one thing about it and move on, because I have decided I just can't fix it. I did almost leave this site over it before deciding that. So now I purposefully avoid topics made by certain people who I know talk mostly about religion and do so in a way that heavily implies it is the ONLY valid perspective. I am deciding to ignore certain very big problems I see with the attitudes here in order to focus on the things that can help me (though I always wonder about the people who have been hurt by religion who wander to this site, see that stuff, and run).

But that is how I personally deal with it. I would hate for someone to have told me I *have to* deal with it that way.



Edited by Jacob S (09/19/13 10:14 PM)
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#447732 - 09/20/13 09:32 AM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 441
Loc: USA
There is an old saying about it matters only when your own ox is being gored. Maybe the truth is we only see the things that others do when our own ox under attack, and equally true that we are blinded to seeing when we are goring someone else's ox.

I try to keep my thoughts about faith in the Spirituality discussion thread. I don't go to preach in other threads to attack some of the ideas here I don't agree with, and there are definitely some ideas promoted at this site that I don't agree with. Yet, people come to this thread to attack those of faith and craft their words carefully so that an individual member is not targeted, instead they target a whole group. There are some posts in here that do exactly that in this thread...attack a group. They are easy enough to find. To me attacking a group is just as bad as attacking a single member.

So to say only non-believers are silenced is untrue, just as believers are not silenced either. The Mods are then put in a situation where they have to try to show balance and respect, and I don't envy that job.

Let me ask this. What good does it do for healing to vent hate at others with whom we disagree? I have found it doesn't make me feel better, so to me it means it adds nothing to my healing. Even if I'm attacked personally, and I have been in the chat room, I learned responding in kind only seems to make me more angry, so now I ignore it and tell the other person to leave me alone. If they don't I'll report them and let the Mods deal with it. What I do not do is seek out non-believers and say "you are going to hell if you don't change your ways". Yet nonbelievers have attacked my faith as somehow being a bad path to healing because it is not their path and they are smarter then I am. Guess what, it works for me, and my own healing is what I'll focus on. If it does not work for others, I respect that.

If a member does not want to hear from a person of faith and they bother you, block them or report them. I have done that with some who come after me simply because they see what I post here and feel a need to tell me Im not "enlightened" or progressive enough in my ideas. I'm not stupid, and those who want to make comments like that are doing, in fact, exactly what they accuse me of doing. Yet somehow they have a right or entitlement to that, and if I don't accept it Im just a hater or a phobic of some kind.

If people don't like expressions of faith, don't read the topic. No one can force another member to read something, so it's a member's choice to go there and I have learned not to do that. Getting myself angry doesn't help me. Finally, if you don't like a how a store operates, don't shop there. They have a right to run a business as they like, at least in the US. It's there business, their money put at risk running it and people can shop elsewhere. It's the shoppers choice to go in the store and into topics here. We are responsible for what we read, just as we can choose where we shop or not shop.

So I'll post my thoughts on faith here, try to keep it respectful too, but no one is going to tell me to leave my faith at the door either, just as I will not tell others they can only heal if they believe like I do.
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“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.” - Plato

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#447735 - 09/20/13 10:15 AM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2590
I find this thread interesting.

I think what Buffalo here says about your own ox being gored is close to the truth.

I used to visit and post here VERY frequently, but I don't now.

Why? Because of the absolute hate, and venom and intolerance here that was spewed AT people of faith and was tolerated and allowed while those decrying it were silenced and posts deleted. In fact at one time there was a mod here who made it his personal mission to silence, delete posts, and even regularly read through private messages of people of faith for no reason other than to attack them. That person was removed ONLY after he said and posted things that would have gotten MS is LOTS of legal trouble if they had allowed him to remain.

My personal experience is that MS is NOT a safe place for people of faith and so because of that, I rarely visit, and when I do it's usually only to check in with a few people here.

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