Newest Members
mossTI, E35, 1975, Lucy, StacyR
12337 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
deaddreamer (41), hkkim (55), tony watashi (44)
Who's Online
0 registered (), 15 Guests and 5 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12337 Members
74 Forums
63427 Topics
443416 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#447529 - 09/18/13 10:25 AM Thoughts of a non-thiest
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 728
Loc: NJ
Thankfully when I started my journey of healing here at MS there was a group of men who I was able to connect with who had no interest in religion, like I do. Some of them come from a religious background but for whatever reason mostly our own transference (which isnt a bad thing) religion does not play a part in our lives. It is also my feeling that at that time , the boundries on the board were a little more stringent against religious mentions or thoughts in posts in the main section and over the years the line certainly seems to have changed.

While I know it has helped/helps some; on the flip side so many men have been hurt by religious personal and persecution and it continues to be a big trigger through thier lives and healing journey. Respectfully, some people just dont care about triggering others. Open blessings and quotes about god are all mentions that while they inspire some hurt and turn away others. It was my main goal here to connect with men whome were abused. I found a great deal of "blindness" to the healing. We talked, we shared, we cried, we were just men who were hurt. it was more inclusive vs exclusive, while identifying, even with a simple blessing, might be more divisive rather than inclusive.

While offering blessings in daily life might be "regionalized and accepted" to some its just plain rude and offensive. It has happened to me more and more often here in NJ, and rather than start a fight or make a big deal I walk away, for my own health and wellbeing. I rather say right there in the supermarket "Some of us don't want or appreciate being blessed or offered something we don't want or brings angst, anger and resentment by being blindly offered something that you feel the need to perpetuate".

While not limiting this to Christians, it seems that this group of people are the most in your face about it. I don't understand why religion has to be forced upon people. While you might suggest that signing something "blessings to you" is just reflectiong one owns faith, it at the same time is an overt way of adding religion into the conversation and topic. I think the overtness and lack of care for others who don't feel the same, whom might even be harmed by it, specifically here at MS is what bothers me the most. Also the most hurtful aspect of it.

So, while I'm the minoroty and only talk for myself I'll have to continue to ignore overt abuse, even unintentional but well documented. Maybe next time at Whole Foods/Home Depot, Ill take the time and gently say to the manager that not everybody wants to be blessed by the cashier. I suspect that if I worked as a cashier and said " Have a very athiestic day today" with a smile it wouldn't be very accepted by people. Similarly if I signed every post I wrote here with my old anti religion tag, I wouldn't be welcome here anymore and people would complain to managment again.

I dont suspect behavior is going to change, but I want my feelings of hurt out there too. When I see it, it brings me pain and sorrow. It makes me feel like I dont belong here. That there is a group within a group that separates the healing. Exclusive rather than inclusive.

I much rather post this in the main section, but I adhere to the boundries of MS to post religious topics here.
_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

Top
#447537 - 09/18/13 11:26 AM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 420
Loc: USA
Castle, I fully support your choice to not believe as is your right. Finding healing is a individual path for everyone. I would say however that to tell others "keep it to yourself as some are offended" applies in many discussions, not just theology. That is why I post my spiritual beliefs in this thread and try not to take them elsewhere, and I also simply do not visit some threads because for me I can't support the ideas there. Still, others need a place to be able to speak up freely without being attacked. For that reason, I'll stay away from the conversation in those threads as arguments add little to anyones progress. I'm not perfect at it but trying to get better at it.

I also try not to speak about my beliefs in the chat room, for the reasons you mentioned. If I'm asked I usually will take it into a PM, again for the reasons you state about it being a possible trigger for others. However, there does seem to be no problem for some atheists when it comes to openly slamming people of faith there, so I'm learning to ignore it. It is certainly not all members of either group who try to promote heated discussions, just some, so I think the majority of members try to be respectful here.

So, for me I think it's a good idea to keep discussions of faith in this thread as much as possible. Yet some have come in previously simply to attack an entire group too, and that also does not add to healing. I don't see this post by you as an attack, because you outline a polite discussion about your concerns and I respect that. As far as businesses go, they have a right to operate under any business model they like. If it causes them to loose customers that may bring a change in the practices. I simply would not shop there if I found the place uncomfortable.

Now the waiting for me begins, to see if this response is considered an attack as well. I really don't mean it that way, and again very much respect your right to your own ideas and chosen path for healing.
_________________________
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.” - Plato

Top
#447543 - 09/18/13 12:28 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 728
Loc: NJ
I'm not looking to attack, nor do I feel attacked.

Both " sides" ( which is the paradox) should leave it outside as to prevent sides. We're all just survivors here.

I could shop elsewhere however I don't think it's a corporate allowable greetings and it just shows poor personal boundaries at the work place. Im not debilitated by it, just personally offended.

I do believe we work at not trying to trigger other members here...I see little to no political discussion s which is great. Religious division is just more inherent. Im asking to consider the trigger effect of adding/ signing " blessings" or other connotation in the main forum.


I certainly am not telling anybody to be or not to be religious ( sorta definition of a nonthiest)


Edited by Castle (09/18/13 12:40 PM)
_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

Top
#447552 - 09/18/13 03:25 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: BuffaloCO]
nltsaved Offline


Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 842
Loc: Kc,Mo
Very well said sir
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-uYCAfpxrY
TRIGGER WARNING
Video of me telling my story
you are not alone never were
WRITTEN FORM
http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=339159#Post339159
Why i hate Religion but love Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY

Top
#447556 - 09/18/13 04:17 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3333
Loc: O Kanada
_________________________
Victor|Victim

War
Love
Poetry

Top
#447560 - 09/18/13 04:53 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3333
Loc: O Kanada
Originally Posted By: Castle

Both " sides" ( which is the paradox) should leave it outside as to prevent sides.


even a line with zero thickness, and only one dimension (length), still has two "sides" and an infinite number of points.



even if the line is curved into a loop and the "opposite endpoints" are joined and thereby eliminated,
two dimensions are still required, and two "sides" still remain... in "side" and out "side".
_________________________
Victor|Victim

War
Love
Poetry

Top
#447562 - 09/18/13 05:07 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 420
Loc: USA
Guess I am not sure what you are talking about so would need an example perhaps. If you are talking about eliminating this particular thread I'd be opposed to that. In other general discussions, clearly not intended for a specific topic like world news, I think any triggering comments should be left out of those areas too, not just ones referring to faith issues.
_________________________
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.” - Plato

Top
#447594 - 09/18/13 11:40 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: BuffaloCO]
nltsaved Offline


Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 842
Loc: Kc,Mo
I think he is saying that there are 2 sides regardless
you can not have one without the other. I think also there is room for all as long as love is the motivating factor.

I do not believe forcing anything on anyone nor do i believe if someone says have a blessed day is forcing anything on anyone . I just think that we are expressing ourselves the only way we know how as people.

You never know what will or will not offend someone because everyone has had their own walk in this life . Everything can be considered an offense now a days . So to say by not doing this for one person it will somehow alleviate the problem for all will not solve the issue because by doing so even that will cause offense because solving a problem for one in some instances creates another problem for the other. I know that is not what is being said directly in this thread but in a way it is .

Considering that if we just Respect one another whether we agree or disagree I think would solve the majority of the whole religion issue .

I do not look at a persons belief as a religion for it is the obsession and unwillingness to view ones own belief without correction or an unwillingness to see even your own views as possibly wrong that defines religion.
I personally can not stand religious people in the sense that ,they are bound by their own belief or what they view as the only way or their way is the best way. I also do not think you can lump "Christians" into one group because there are Christians that live out the life with love and compassion . Than there are Christians that live out the life with hatred and bigotry. The westboro baptist church is the best example i can think of . I would not consider myself a christian to be lumped in with the whole broad spectrum "Christian" because of so called Christians like westboro .

I think it all boils down to respect and knowing yourself what you can and can not handle where you can and can not go. No one forces anyone to read any of this stuff . If i see a thread not going in a place i do not agree with or see a thread taking a direction i do not like , i simply exit out . And above all show respect . Even exiting out of a thread you disagree with is a sign of respecting yourself really. My 2 cent
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-uYCAfpxrY
TRIGGER WARNING
Video of me telling my story
you are not alone never were
WRITTEN FORM
http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=339159#Post339159
Why i hate Religion but love Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY

Top
#447595 - 09/19/13 12:52 AM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: nltsaved]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3333
Loc: O Kanada
you explained my position very well, nltsaved.
especially...
Originally Posted By: nltsaved

Considering that if we just Respect one another whether we agree or disagree I think would solve the majority of the whole religion issue.


if i may change just one word...
Considering that if we just Love one another whether we agree or disagree I think would solve the majority of the whole religion issue.

_________________________
Victor|Victim

War
Love
Poetry

Top
#447656 - 09/19/13 04:08 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 728
Loc: NJ
Assuming everybody wants to blessed and that's their problem if they don't appreciate the thought is the primary issue.... especially after knowing it's an issue for some. It shows a total lack of respect, exactly the opposite of what you write.

I know it wouldn't change around here, and my feeling respectfully is you have no respect for me as a survivor should you choose to overtly " push" a belief system.

Luckily I'm not a debilitated survivor and my day w ill go on... I choose not to connect with any survivor here who shown me a lack of respect or common courtesy.
_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

Top
#447657 - 09/19/13 04:09 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: victor-victim]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 728
Loc: NJ
I completely disagree.
_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

Top
#447658 - 09/19/13 04:19 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3333
Loc: O Kanada
all my life i knew how to give and take,
but, through years of therapy, i have learned to share and receive.

if you consider a blessing as a gift of love,
that may help you avoid being offended by good intentions.
_________________________
Victor|Victim

War
Love
Poetry

Top
#447661 - 09/19/13 04:48 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3333
Loc: O Kanada
Originally Posted By: Castle
Im asking to consider the trigger effect of adding/ signing " blessings" or other connotation in the main forum.

I certainly am not telling anybody to be or not to be religious ( sorta definition of a nonthiest)


both of those are impossible to do.

i am not here to convert or control other people.

i guess that makes me a nontheist, too?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/blessing
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

the word blessing is inherently religious.
i used to get offended every time someone said the word "god" or "bless" or even "love".
it caused me all kinds of frustration and grief.
it provoked all kinds of negative reactions in me.
there was no way to stop it from happening.
i couldn't get around it, so i had to get over it to get past it.

_________________________
Victor|Victim

War
Love
Poetry

Top
#447665 - 09/19/13 05:09 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
traveler Online   confused
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3378
Loc: somewhere in Africa
Castle –

I think one of the misunderstandings here is that many non-believers seem to think that a believer’s faith is something optional that can be “worn” or not like an accessory. As if – when you know that someone hates hats – you can just not put one on when you are going to be around them. In reality, those of us who are trying to be followers of Jesus rather than a member of a religion, consider our faith to be not only a core value – but part of our hearts and souls and the deepest part of our identities.

For me to deny or divorce or hide or ignore that part of myself would be like attempting to erase huge chunks of my life history and memories and emotions. It is not something that I can do. It is not something I should be expected or asked to do. It is not something that I would ever ask of another survivor. And I don’t think that all my interactions should be relegated and limited to this spirituality forum as if it is a ghetto for my particular minority that I dare not set foot outside.

I know that religions and churches and religious people are often guilty of abuse and mention of them can cause triggers. I was abused by a very religious step-dad. And I was emotionally and verbally and financially and spiritually abused by a religious cult that I was in for 7 years. But I do not blame all religious people for the suffering I endured or expect no one to ever mention such things in my presence.

Some of my worst abuse was at the hands of the step-dad and took place in the family home. I do not expect everyone to censor all mention of families or step-parents or homes from their conversations.

More of my abuse was perpetrated by athletes and scouts at school and camp-outs. Again – I am careful in reading about such scenarios and am prepared for triggers – but I don’t insist on such themes and topics being edited from the forums for my comfort.

One perp in my history was a gay man – I do not lash out at every gay man because of that. Nor do I accuse gays on the forum to be an exclusive clique. They are obviously a sub-category – but so what? so are left-handed people, members of the Republican party, red-haired people, those who are allergic to peanuts, and those who hate tomatoes.

I think you are being hyper-sensitive and taking your own issues out on a small minority. Why does “blessing” even have to be an issue? Take it to mean “best wishes” – which I think is what is really intended. And if you can’t separate the word from a religious context, consider it to be meaningless – since you don’t believe in a deity anyway.

I agree that no one should “push” or “force” their religion on others – and I hope I have never done anything that could be construed in that way – I consciously attempt to reserve discussion of my faith for this forum – unless some passing mention is so integral a part of a bigger story’s context that it would be dishonest to leave it out. but what you have described is far from proselytizing or insisting that everyone accept or believe the same way .

I do not mean to be confrontational or argumentative or disrespectful of your views. But I hope you will consider that other’s views have equal validity.

lee


Edited by traveler (10/02/13 09:51 PM)
_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


Top
#447667 - 09/19/13 05:15 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: traveler]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3333
Loc: O Kanada
Originally Posted By: traveler
Castle –

I think one of the misunderstandings here is that many non-believers seem to think that a believer’s faith is something optional that can be “worn” or not like an accessory. As if – when you know that someone hates hats – you can just not put one on when you are going to be around them. In reality, those of us who are trying to be followers of Jesus rather than a member of a religion, consider our faith to be not only a core value – but part of our hearts and souls and the deepest part of our identities.

For me to deny or divorce or hide or ignore that part of myself would be like a an Afro-American pretending not to be black or a gay man acting as though his orientation was not important, or like attempting to erase huge chunks of my life history and memories and emotions. It is not something that I can do. It is not something I should be expected or asked to do. It is not something that I would ever ask of another survivor. And I don’t think that all my interactions should be relegated and limited to this spirituality forum as if it is a ghetto for my particular minority that I dare not set foot outside.

Why does “blessing” even have to be an issue? Take it to mean “best wishes” – which I think is what is really intended. And if you can’t separate the word from a religious context, consider it to be meaningless – since you don’t believe in a deity anyway.

I agree that no one should “push” or “force” their religion on others – and I hope I have never done anything that could be construed in that way – I consciously attempt to reserve discussion of my faith for this forum – unless some passing mention is so integral a part of a bigger story’s context that it would be dishonest to leave it out. but what you have described is far from proselytizing or insisting that everyone accept or believe the same way .

I do not mean to be confrontational or argumentative or disrespectful of your views. But I hope you will consider that other’s views have equal validity.

lee



ditto
_________________________
Victor|Victim

War
Love
Poetry

Top
#447691 - 09/19/13 08:55 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 728
Loc: NJ
We each have our opinions.

I'm happy not to have religion/religious people in my life or recovery.

It would be easier for me to "get over it", if it was equal and those who have negative feelings twords religion were allowed to express it.
_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

Top
#447692 - 09/19/13 09:02 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 728
Loc: NJ
It doesn't mean "best wishes" that's why.... why not just say. " best wishes" If that's what you mean.

I believe in the big bang and monkeys and stuff...I don't believe and let there be light... because somebody wrote it in a book.

I saw some great quotes from Einstein and some other really enlightened people about religion...I would post them but suspect they would get pulled.

Enjoy your healing.
_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

Top
#447700 - 09/19/13 10:12 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
Jacob S Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 594
Castle,

I agree with you. I don't want to have a "blessed" day. Because the "blessing" is from a source that:
1. I don't think exists
2. I wouldn't want anything to do with if he did exist. If I went into specifics about why, it would be considered debating, but Thomas Paine has a couple of quotes that sum up the reasoning nicely if people care to read him.

I would like people to understand and respect that. There is a difference between saying "I want you to have a good day" and "I want the God of I Sam. 15:3, the God of Num. 31:15-18, to give you a good day." I would want nothing from such a creature if he existed. I do not say that to argue or insult, just to it make clear that it is something I feel strongly about. I wish people would respect me and not try to give me what I do not want.

I don't find this place equally respectful of both positions.

I find the community here very supportive, except when it comes to assumptions about non-theists. I've been told that non-theists are more prone to be immoral, that they are more likely to be perverts, and that they cannot be healed. I'm the kind of guy that if there was any evidence behind these claims I'd be ok with them. But its not factual. Its just as prejudicial as people who assume priests are more likely to be pedophiles. But I have to be very careful how I express that here, because someone says something like that and everyone just nods . . . and if I try to make a fuss about it, I'm the one who gets shot down for being argumentative (or worse, just ignored like my opinion doesn't matter). Even though I think I have a right for being angry in those cases, just as a Christian would if the situation was reversed. So now (unless I find it really egregious) I try hard to say one thing about it and move on, because I have decided I just can't fix it. I did almost leave this site over it before deciding that. So now I purposefully avoid topics made by certain people who I know talk mostly about religion and do so in a way that heavily implies it is the ONLY valid perspective. I am deciding to ignore certain very big problems I see with the attitudes here in order to focus on the things that can help me (though I always wonder about the people who have been hurt by religion who wander to this site, see that stuff, and run).

But that is how I personally deal with it. I would hate for someone to have told me I *have to* deal with it that way.



Edited by Jacob S (09/19/13 10:14 PM)
_________________________
Like a spent gladiator
crawling in the colosseum dust
who can count on his remaining limbs
all the people he can trust.
Like the one who stands behind him
cheering him on
Estatic when he stands defiant,
wild with abandon when he's gone

just stay alive.
do whatever you need to.
you are worth it.

Top
#447732 - 09/20/13 09:32 AM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 420
Loc: USA
There is an old saying about it matters only when your own ox is being gored. Maybe the truth is we only see the things that others do when our own ox under attack, and equally true that we are blinded to seeing when we are goring someone else's ox.

I try to keep my thoughts about faith in the Spirituality discussion thread. I don't go to preach in other threads to attack some of the ideas here I don't agree with, and there are definitely some ideas promoted at this site that I don't agree with. Yet, people come to this thread to attack those of faith and craft their words carefully so that an individual member is not targeted, instead they target a whole group. There are some posts in here that do exactly that in this thread...attack a group. They are easy enough to find. To me attacking a group is just as bad as attacking a single member.

So to say only non-believers are silenced is untrue, just as believers are not silenced either. The Mods are then put in a situation where they have to try to show balance and respect, and I don't envy that job.

Let me ask this. What good does it do for healing to vent hate at others with whom we disagree? I have found it doesn't make me feel better, so to me it means it adds nothing to my healing. Even if I'm attacked personally, and I have been in the chat room, I learned responding in kind only seems to make me more angry, so now I ignore it and tell the other person to leave me alone. If they don't I'll report them and let the Mods deal with it. What I do not do is seek out non-believers and say "you are going to hell if you don't change your ways". Yet nonbelievers have attacked my faith as somehow being a bad path to healing because it is not their path and they are smarter then I am. Guess what, it works for me, and my own healing is what I'll focus on. If it does not work for others, I respect that.

If a member does not want to hear from a person of faith and they bother you, block them or report them. I have done that with some who come after me simply because they see what I post here and feel a need to tell me Im not "enlightened" or progressive enough in my ideas. I'm not stupid, and those who want to make comments like that are doing, in fact, exactly what they accuse me of doing. Yet somehow they have a right or entitlement to that, and if I don't accept it Im just a hater or a phobic of some kind.

If people don't like expressions of faith, don't read the topic. No one can force another member to read something, so it's a member's choice to go there and I have learned not to do that. Getting myself angry doesn't help me. Finally, if you don't like a how a store operates, don't shop there. They have a right to run a business as they like, at least in the US. It's there business, their money put at risk running it and people can shop elsewhere. It's the shoppers choice to go in the store and into topics here. We are responsible for what we read, just as we can choose where we shop or not shop.

So I'll post my thoughts on faith here, try to keep it respectful too, but no one is going to tell me to leave my faith at the door either, just as I will not tell others they can only heal if they believe like I do.
_________________________
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.” - Plato

Top
#447735 - 09/20/13 10:15 AM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2575
I find this thread interesting.

I think what Buffalo here says about your own ox being gored is close to the truth.

I used to visit and post here VERY frequently, but I don't now.

Why? Because of the absolute hate, and venom and intolerance here that was spewed AT people of faith and was tolerated and allowed while those decrying it were silenced and posts deleted. In fact at one time there was a mod here who made it his personal mission to silence, delete posts, and even regularly read through private messages of people of faith for no reason other than to attack them. That person was removed ONLY after he said and posted things that would have gotten MS is LOTS of legal trouble if they had allowed him to remain.

My personal experience is that MS is NOT a safe place for people of faith and so because of that, I rarely visit, and when I do it's usually only to check in with a few people here.

Top
#447737 - 09/20/13 10:50 AM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
Jacob S Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 594
Looks like there is bad blood on both sides. That's too bad.
_________________________
Like a spent gladiator
crawling in the colosseum dust
who can count on his remaining limbs
all the people he can trust.
Like the one who stands behind him
cheering him on
Estatic when he stands defiant,
wild with abandon when he's gone

just stay alive.
do whatever you need to.
you are worth it.

Top
#447747 - 09/20/13 02:42 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 728
Loc: NJ
Nice ron/sans ref.

He didn't have boundaries either.

Sad that nobody feels safe.
_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

Top
#447748 - 09/20/13 02:43 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 728
Loc: NJ
ty Jacob, for sharing your feelings.
_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

Top
#447750 - 09/20/13 03:46 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Jacob S]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3333
Loc: O Kanada
to the nontheists:

i, personally, don't say god bless you as a habit.
only god can bless, and i do not pretend to know what god is, or what he does to whom, for whom, or why.
sometimes, i will respond in kind when someone "blesses" me.
but, like i say, after 50 years as a nontheist (i started following jesus about 2 years ago) it is not a natural instinct.

i know exactly how Jacob and castle feel.
exactly.
i used to feel exactly the same way.
i understand. i get it.

i was that person.
still am on occasion.
i have cursed my creator and dared him to smite me.
i am ashamed to admit the ungrateful things i have said to and about god.

a large percentage of the 50 songs my band recorded and released were attacks on organized religion.
i was devoted for decades to decadence, detachment, death, and destruction. i was somehow convinced that i was in a position to judge and criticize my creator, his creation, and his creatures (including me).

i denied god and whenever i was forced to acknowledge his existence, i was angry at him.
i despised people who were all smug and righteous about their relationship with the creator.
i was jealous that they were able to deceive themselves into such a state of certainty and contentment.
i saw them as simple minded fools who were willing and able to believe in fairy tales.
i called religion a placebo, not a crutch,
because i considered a crutch a concrete, necessary and useful tool.
placebos were dangerous, because they kept people from real cures.
i didn't need god to be happy, i was happy.
that was my placebo.

i clung to my nontheism with a passion, and began to read the bible so i could find the flaws and continue my attack by using scripture against believers.
boy... did that backfire.

i am a seeker of secrets, and a student of life.
i have read sutras, vedas, unpanishads, ramayana, the qur'an, the bhagavad gita, guru granth sahib, enuma elish, The Secret Teachings of All Ages, Meditations on First Philosophy, mein kampf, das kapital, the wealth of nations, morals and dogma, isis unveiled, egyptian book of the dead, the satanic bible, dianetics, the book of lies, magick in theory and practice, the necronomicon, etc.
i still have all those books, and many more, in my own personal library.
i studied eckankar, theosophy, thelema, baha'i, etc.
i did lsd, pcp, and dmt ritually.
i spent 6 months in the jungles of southeast asia, smoking opium and learning to meditate.
i entered the hermetic order of the golden dawn.

not bragging, but i have spent my entire life searching for proof of absolute truth and fixed morals,
or else proof of error and nonexistence.
i had come to conclude that truth and love did not exist.
human concepts of good and evil, wright and rong were relative as time and space.
they were illusions and therefore irrelevant.
the human experience was meaningless and futile, without purpose.
NO RULES. NO MORAL ABSOLUTES.
everything was grey.


it took too much faith to maintain a firm unwavering opinion that the universe was not the result of intelligent design,
so i gravitated toward thinking that the creator, if any, was cruel and sadistic or uncaring and indifferent.
not worthy of worship or gratitude or simply impossible to contact. i called it antitheism.

anyway, my experience with the bible has been a complete transformation.
just from absorbing the wisdom in that book,
i have improved my mental and emotional and spiritual health so completely and continuously,
people who have known me all my life do not recognize me.
i am happy. i love people. i love myself.

that all happened without my desire, knowledge, permission or cooperation.
when i realized how much better i was getting,
then i began to give god permission.
the transformation continued, it increased, it accelerated.
after 2 solid years, i am beginning to think this new personality might be real and permanent.
it feels real.
it is better than any drug or ritual i have tried.
it is better than the pleasures of sex.
it is better than "getting my own way".
it is better than "getting what i want".

spirituality is a subjective science.
if i get specific results from exact procedures (rituals),
and those results are the same every time i repeat the experiment... that is good enough "empirical evidence" for me.

these are my own personal experiences and opinions.
each individual must come to their own conclusion independently or it has no value whatsoever.
each individual must make their own decisions independently for the same reason.
each person must build their faith on firm foundation.
would you build a house on someone else's foundation without first confirming the integrity of it's construction?

i learned in the occult that magick is the art of bending the universe of matter to your own free will.
i also learned that there is a law of spiritual non-interference.
if you use your free will to dominate or manipulate others, especially without their consent or knowledge,
you are practicing "black" magic. it is forbidden.
any damage done to the subject will come back on the dealer, compounded with interest.
even they know you cannot change people spiritually, and meddling only produces negative results.
you can control the mind, the body, but never the soul.
i could not convert anyone, even if i tried.
we all know it doesn't work that way.
so all you nontheists have nothing to fear from me.
i can't change you, even if i tried.

to all theists:

MATTHEW 5:9-12
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca, (contempt)’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Matthew 5:29
But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

Matthew 5:44-48
But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Luke 6:37-42
“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
He also told them this parable: “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into a pit?
The student is not above the teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher.
“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.


and last but not least...
Matthew 22:36-40
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Deuteronomy 6:5
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

Leviticus 19:18
Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.

there you have it...

MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE
should you choose to accept it.

i do.

all i have to do now is accomplish it.
_________________________
Victor|Victim

War
Love
Poetry

Top
#447756 - 09/20/13 06:13 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3333
Loc: O Kanada
Originally Posted By: Castle
Sad that nobody feels safe.


i feel safe.
_________________________
Victor|Victim

War
Love
Poetry

Top
#447778 - 09/20/13 10:12 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
mattheal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/10/12
Posts: 142
Loc: Ohio
A


Edited by mattheal (09/20/13 11:34 PM)
_________________________
It's okay to find the faith to saunter forward
With no fear of shadows spreading where you stand
And you'll breathe easier just knowing
that the worst is all behind you
And the waves that tossed the raft all night
have set you on dry land
- The Mountain Goats - "Never Quite Free"

Top
#449289 - 10/05/13 06:50 PM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
Bluedogone Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/03/13
Posts: 193
Loc: Southeast US
Originally Posted By: Castle

It would be easier for me to "get over it", if it was equal and those who have negative feelings twords religion were allowed to express it.



Since this thread and, as far as I can tell, none of the posts in the thread have been deleted it would seem negative feelings towards religion ARE allowed to be expressed. And you, and others, have expressed them.

It's not only various expressions of a Religious nature that are allowed (and maybe encouraged). One of my abusers constantly used the expression "have a nice day!" So To me, hearing that expression whether from a non-religious person or at Home Depot gets me highly agitated and a little irritated, or rather it could if I allowed it to do so. But I recognize it for what it is. They are not trying to rattle me by reminding me of abuse or trying to do anything to instill faith. They are sending me cheerfully on my way. I can choose to get upset about it, or in fact have a nice day. It's entirely my choice.

It's regrettable that there are expressions you don't want to hear, but I personally hope the day never comes when only words or expressions used on this or any forum or topic must be so sanitized that nothing will ever be said that someone somewhere will not find offensive.

CJ
_________________________
Never, never, never, never give up....Winston Churchill

Top
#449402 - 10/07/13 09:23 AM Re: Thoughts of a non-thiest [Re: Castle]
ModTeam Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 691
Originally Posted By: ModTeam
It appears this topic has reached the end of it's course. Using the discussion board to explore situations, thoughts and emotions is beneficial and healthy, until such time that the discussion becomes contrary to the goals and purposes of MaleSurvivor. This topic has been discussed and for the purposes of recovery has been thoroughly answered. It is important to understand that not all of the facts are made public about this issue, it is important to have patience. Each of us, as we interact with our community can be reassured that those who have all the facts are working to promote as safe an environment as possible in this public setting. Site management continually strives to provide an environment safe for the purpose of pursuing one’s recovery from the effects of past sexual abuse. Please do not attempt to repost this topic, as doing so may be cause for further action by site management.

Your cooperation on this matter is appreciated.

Regards

The Moderators
_________________________
Private messages sent to this account are checked irregularly due to personnel and time constraints. Please send messages to one of the moderators for the forum that is concerned by user name, or if there is no named moderator, send a PM to any moderator.

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  ModTeam 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.