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#44652 - 06/24/03 03:43 PM Defining Your Sexual Abuse
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Quote:
What is sexual abuse? Mic Hunter writes,
"But I am not writing about data or evidence in the legal sense. I am writing about people and their pain. My definition is based on what people have told me hurt them." (Abused Boys, pp 4 & 5).

Bottom line: If someone has been hurt & says they have been hurt by the sexual behaviors of others, they have by definition been sexually abused. Period.
So what do you say? What is your definition as a male survivor of sexual abuse?

For starter help, here is the list (not meant to be complete but it is comprehensive) from Mic Hunter originally posted in the thread "Why Define
Sexual Abuse?" at http://www.malesurvivor.org/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002130#000022 :

Quote:
According to Mic Hunter, sexual abuse (of children; also applies to anyone in a position of relative powerlessness in relation to someone else) can include:


  • The adult sexually touching the child
  • Having the child touch the adult sexually
  • Photographing the child for sexual purposes
  • Sexualized talk
  • Showing the child pornographic materials or making them available to the child
  • Making fun of or ridiculing the child's sexual development, pereferences, or organs
  • The adult exposing his or her genitals to the child for sexual gratification
  • Masturbating or otherwise being sexual in front of the child
  • Voyeurism
  • Forcing overly rigid rules on dress or overly revealing dress
  • Stripping to hit or spank, or getting sexual excitement out of hitting
  • Verbal and emotional abuse of a sexual nature
  • Having the child be sexual with animals
  • Engaging the child in prostitution
  • Witnessing others being sexually abused

("Abused Boys" pp 8 & 9)
You may copy & paste this list to your own post in this thread, add to it as you may need to and respond to the ones that apply to you.

Please don't share anything you're not ready to share, and please be aware this exercise could be triggering. But it could well be worth it.

You may want to read the thread "Why Define Sexual Abuse?" (link above) before doing this exercise. This exercise could be very important for each of us & all of us in naming, disclosing & overcoming our SA.

The next post will be an example of this exercise originally posted by Ron in "Why Define Sexual Abuse?" and copied here to get us started...

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#44653 - 06/24/03 03:50 PM Re: Defining Your Sexual Abuse
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
[This post by Ron aka Sans Logos copied here with permission by moderator Waumei aka Victor. Thanks Ron for the inspiration! \:\) ]

Friends, [>>>>>>TRIGGER WARNING!!!!!!!!!!!!]

We need to share the details of our abuse most especially in arenas such as these where concerned parties are watching and gathering info for use in support of our progressive recoveries.
These parties, our saviors, have the power to help us change the course of events which transpired from our having been victimized, and to take that info, synthesize it into a public plan of action, and credibly establish a platform from which the stories of our emotional, psychological and spiritual devastation might be recounted. Our lives as survivors can be changed, the lives of future victims might not be aborted so tragically and with such far reaching results as we have known.
In light of this I respond to Victor's list and propose to supply the specific details of how each of the points in the list have occured for my experience. Perhaps this could become a new thread that might be better placed in a different forum, but if moderators choose to do so, then so be it. A tip of the hat ( yeah, I got the hat AND the T-shirt) to Mic:


  • The adult sexually touching the child; An older brother who was placed in charge took advantage of me and nearly all my 7 brothers and sisters, by initiating us sexually before our time. The abuse continued until he graduated from high school and left the home. Unless someone helps unpacks this, how will the world ever asses the extent of the damage that this caused?
  • Having the child touch the adult sexually;.....This occured as an ongoing part of the abuse
  • Photographing the child for sexual purposes.....N/A
  • Sexualized talk;..........My mother once said to me in a conversation "I never turned your father down". Another time she told me that she had discovered evidence that one of my younger brother's had been masturbating.
  • Showing the child pornographic materials or making them available to the child........N/A
  • Making fun of or ridiculing the child's sexual development, pereferences, or organs; Being gay, I always lived in fear of being discovered; it was the society in general that ridiculed my preferences. When I later came out, the parents further ridiculed this preference by being vacant about it and refusing to acknowledge it.
  • The adult exposing his or her genitals to the child for sexual gratification;...... Don't know what to make of this, but once as a small child I remember that my mother's mother came into the bathroom while I was drying myself off after taking a bath. Without knocking she came in, lifted her dress and prodeeded to use the toilet!? What the F***!
  • Masturbating or otherwise being sexual in front of the child;..... Older brother used to sit in my father's recliner when the parents were not home and masturbate through his jeans while the rest of us were sitting watching TV
  • Voyeurism; No incidences to report, but surely it follows that there was a lot of covert "watching" going on in this family.
  • Forcing overly rigid rules on dress or overly revealing dress;...... We were not allowed to be seen in public areas of the house in our underclothes. However, my father would sleep nude and leave the bedroom door open just a crack............. This was confusing and seemed incongruous to the puritanical rule of enforced modesty.
  • Stripping to hit or spank, or getting sexual excitement out of hitting;..... This was the parents favorite form of punishment. First, of course you had to fetch your instrument of torture, then you were told to drop your pants. there was a lot of cruelty involved.
  • Verbal and emotional abuse of a sexual nature;.....
    I found out about a romantic fling my mother was having one day when I discovered cards from her "lover" in her dresser drawer, I knew the guy and confronted him, and said it was "pure". Hell, I was only 15 and here I am asking about this.........
    Also, my younger sister was abused by a neighbor and the parents did absolutely nothing about it!
  • Having the child be sexual with animals;..... n/a
  • Engaging the child in prostitution;..... n/a
  • Witnessing others being sexually abused; ..... I frequently walked in on my older brother having sex with other siblings. It freaked me out.



I want to see the effects of abuse publicized to all the world, so that unhealthy shame around this issue might begin to subside. It will not be until we become vocal, and let out the BIG secrets, that we will begin to establish credibility, initiate a new consciouness around the whole subject of sex, and create new legislation that will cause people to think twice before thinking that they can get away with these and other types of behaviors. Once others begin to understand how they have been sexually abused then true healing can begin.

I have to admit that in this post I have triggered myself, so I need to slink off and lick some wounds. Thanks for the opportunity to share,

Ron

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#44654 - 06/24/03 04:58 PM Re: Defining Your Sexual Abuse
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
According to Mic Hunter, sexual abuse (of children; also applies to anyone in a position of relative powerlessness in relation to someone else) can include:

  • The adult sexually touching the child:
    Where would I begin? All of my perps did this, anything from brief sexual touches to intercourse v*ginal, *nal & *ral. Some once or twice, some for
    months or even years, my mother for most of my childhood.
  • Having the child touch the adult sexually:
    See above...
  • Photographing the child for sexual purposes:
    Not that I know of or remember.

    Sexualized talk: Frequently, especially from my mother, my prime perp who made me a surrogate husband.
  • Showing the child pornographic materials or making them available to the child:
    My mother made pornographic photos of herself available to me. \:o
  • Making fun of or ridiculing the child's sexual development, pereferences, or organs:

    My mother made fun of me any time I showed any clue of liking a girl. Especially as I got older. She was coming to realize she would not be able to have & control me as I got older & stronger & more rebellious.

    So she would always try to steer me toward & keep me around men, especially gay men. She was trying to make me gay so that if she couldn't have me no other female could either. :p

    This culminated in her selling me to a gay couple that was supposed to be friends who raped me. It didn't work. (Note: this is NOT a knock on being gay, just on her trying to make me gay--becuz I wasn't & didn't want to be--period!)
  • The adult exposing his or her genitals to the
    child for sexual gratification:
    My mother, and my father and some of her boyfriends, would walk thru our apartments freely nude or near-nude, which is what my mother was most of the time.
    :rolleyes:
  • Masturbating or otherwise being sexual in front of the child:
    Sexual activity in rooms with open doors or even out in the open was not uncommon in my "home."
  • Voyeurism:
    No not per say...
  • Forcing overly rigid rules on dress or overly
    revealing dress:
    No not on me...
  • Stripping to hit or spank, or getting sexual excitement out of hitting:
    Oops, they missed that one!
    :p
  • Verbal and emotional abuse of a sexual nature:
    Yes the verbal & emotional incest was ongoing & perhaps the worst part.
  • Having the child be sexual with animals:
    Thank God no.
  • Engaging the child in prostitution:
    Just the one time when my mother sold me to the gay couple--as far as I can remember...
  • Witnessing others being sexually abused:
    No, thank God.


("Abused Boys" pp 8 & 9)

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#44655 - 06/25/03 11:36 AM Re: Defining Your Sexual Abuse
The Dean Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 2080
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
While Mic Hunter's list is all clearly abuse, I spelled it out this way in an article I wrote:

Secondly, many people say they do not know what we are talking about when we speak of this sexual betrayal/violation. (abuse) Let me make it clear! We are speaking about any of the following: an adult who makes a child/teen strip naked; touches him when naked or puts his hands over the genitals inside of or on top of, the child’s clothes, which in this instance includes the buttocks, takes pictures of the naked child, hugs, kisses or cuddles the child even when the child makes it clear they do not want this. It includes felatio and sodomy, (oral and/or anal sexual penetration). It includes taking pornographic video or other forms of photo exploitation of the child. And it includes making the child/teen touch, kiss or in any other way give pleasure to the perpetrators penis, masturbating the adult, or having to permit the perpetrator take the boys penis out of the child’s clothes and either suck on it, touch it, or masturbate the child. Caressing, massaging, or “playing with” the boy’s buttocks is also a violation.

It is further betrayal and violation to “sell” or “trade” the child for some other adult to violate in any of the ways mentioned above. It is also a felony in most if not all states, distinct from the crime of the exploitation itself.

At the time I wrote that I was thinking only of male on male abuse. I would include what Vic wrote about female on male abuse now.

POSSIBLE TRIGGER

My perp made me take all of my clothes off, he squeezed, pinched and slapped my butt, he sodomized me and made me give him oral sex until he was hard and could rape me. He also made me give oral sex to orgasm to one of his buddies.

END OF POSSIBLE TRIGGER

It sure would be difficult to see that anyone would consider any of this to NOT be abuse. I might add that he tried mightily to make me think that I had seduced him!!! That was abuse as well and even though I have known it to be a mile high pile of BS, I have asked myself many,many times: "What did I do to make him do this?" What a joke.

BOB

_________________________
If we do not live what we believe, then we will begin to believe what we live.

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#44656 - 06/25/03 02:17 PM Re: Defining Your Sexual Abuse
godsrabbit Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 98
i am going to try to answer this...

i do not know how to define sexual abuse except to call it anything done to you with sexual intent without your wanting it done...i also think that we have control over a certain degree of power in an abusive situation if we keep our heads about us.

[edited for feeling generally icky for every posting it in the first place]....

this is a hard story to explain...my point being that INTENT is crucial, i think...abuse is relative, but so is self-victimization...i was damaged to the point of seriously hurting someone else because of my own paranoia...

i think it is important to recognize that we do not have to be ruled by the impact of every unfortunate thing that befalls us...some people are evil and do evil things and are well aware of it...some people are just insensitive, ignorant, or intent on something they may even perceive as truly "good"...and wind up damaging or destroying others in the process...


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#44657 - 06/25/03 04:52 PM Re: Defining Your Sexual Abuse
The Dean Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 2080
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
well rabbit, that is good news. There are several really beautiful women that I think I better check out to make sure that they are not cutting themselves!

You were used and abused BOTH times. What a freaky world we would have if we went around feeling everyone up to make sure they don't have any bandages.

If the mediatro let him get by on that s/he had betteer get out of the mediation business.

Bob

_________________________
If we do not live what we believe, then we will begin to believe what we live.

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#44658 - 06/25/03 04:54 PM Re: Defining Your Sexual Abuse
The Dean Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 2080
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
Quote:
Originally posted by TheDean:
well rabbit, that is good news. There are several really beautiful women that I think I better check out to make sure that they are not cutting themselves!

You were used and abused BOTH times. What a freaky world we would have if we went around feeling everyone up to make sure they don't have any bandages.

If the mediator let him get by on that s/he had betteer get out of the mediation business TODAY, even better, before you were subject to blatant idiocity

Bob


_________________________
If we do not live what we believe, then we will begin to believe what we live.

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#44659 - 06/25/03 05:03 PM Re: Defining Your Sexual Abuse
godsrabbit Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 98
....sigh....

thank you all...i give up...i am clearly incapable of expressing myself in this arena...

God understands...nothing else really matters...

i will pray for you all...


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#44660 - 06/25/03 05:18 PM Re: Defining Your Sexual Abuse
outis Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 2260
Loc: Maryland USA
Whoa, rabbit, don't go anywhere just yet. If there is a miscommunication, we need people on both ends to get things right.

I got the impression from your de>
_________________________
"Telemachos, your guest is no discredit to you. I wasted no time in stringing the bow, and I did not miss the mark. My strength is yet unbroken…"—The Odyssey, translated by W.H.D. Rouse

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#44661 - 06/25/03 05:31 PM Re: Defining Your Sexual Abuse
godsrabbit Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 98
joe,

thank you for your patience...
i do not understand why i must accept that it IS abuse...i do not feel abused...

i think bob's characterization (forgive me bob) is inaccurate and insensitive....and that is clearly the fault of my inability to show you that the second scenario was a miscommunication to BEGIN with...

we are human beings for God's sake...we send out mixed signals to one another all the time because of the complexity of our emotions...

it would have been criminal on MY part to press charges for assault in the matter...

i am not an idiot. i know what abuse is. why am i not permitted to define it here? every time i open my mouth someone is telling me i am wrong and "in denial" and that i have been "violated"...

i do not carry this sort of anger or resentment or pain that the rest of many of you here seem to carry...i fear my presence would be an irritant to you and my need for healing is a need for peace, not agitation...

i love you all very much and would help you if i could, but every time i try to share, if just seems to agitate YOU, and that agitation makes me requestion everything i have been through AGAIN...who is raping who here? so what is the point?

i apologize if this post seems angry...it is not...i am frustrated because i feel that if i do not conform to your definitions of abuse then i have no voice here...and that, clearly, is not the intent of this "ministry"....

since i seem to be the only one with this problem, then it is simple enough for me to go elsewhere...i have a strong support system in real life...i need, in my next step of healing, to reach out to other people...but i do not need to be told what to think by them...i only came here for myself but also to be supportive and share my story in the hopes of helping others...but as i said, i appear to be doing neither...

i am not an idiot, i am not a child, and i am not self-deceived. i want my opinion treated with respect...

i am sorry...i am a reasonable human being...i am also a sensitive human being...i do not think i make unreasonable demands on others...i certainly do not judge the experience of any of you....but take at face value what anger, hurt, joy, or desire you wish to share.


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#44662 - 06/25/03 05:58 PM Re: Defining Your Sexual Abuse
godsrabbit Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 98
p.s.

andrew said in the "trapped" thread:
Quote:
In my humble opinion, the worst thing an SA survivor can do is give the SA experience an importance it doesn't deserve by attributing to it all future failings and fallibilities. Doing this breathes life in the SA, reopening the wound continually. It is also, in my opinion, a total cop out ... an excuse, and a very convenient one.
this is the most sensible thing i have seen here...

what is the point of calling something abuse if it is not? it is mine to define. my body. my head. my health. and i am responsible for it. no one else.


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#44663 - 06/25/03 06:06 PM Re: Defining Your Sexual Abuse
outis Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 2260
Loc: Maryland USA
Godsrabbit,

You are correct. I apologize for "speaking for you." It is a character flaw of mine.

If it didn't and doesn't hurt the recipient, I do not think it is abuse.

Thanks,

Joe

_________________________
"Telemachos, your guest is no discredit to you. I wasted no time in stringing the bow, and I did not miss the mark. My strength is yet unbroken…"—The Odyssey, translated by W.H.D. Rouse

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#44664 - 06/25/03 06:22 PM Re: Defining Your Sexual Abuse
andrew-almost52 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 243
Loc: canada
Hold on now Rabbit! I don't mind being quoted, but I'm not sure that what I said is actually supportive of what you are saying. I was suggesting that SA should not be allowed to rule and destroy our lives. The second scenario you described certainly could be perceived as abuse. It may not have bothered you, and if it didn't ... then fine. It seems that you are quite comfortable to accept the mediator's findings. And if you are now convinced in your own mind that you were not abused, then who am I not to accept that.
Peace, Andrew


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#44665 - 06/25/03 06:37 PM Re: Defining Your Sexual Abuse
andrew-almost52 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 243
Loc: canada
Agreeing with Mic Hunter's list is a no brainer.

Having said that, I would propose that the following is NOT abuse:
A male adult is propositioned/approached by another male either verbally or through escalating contact. The male being propositioned
goes along with the sexual contact and completes the sex act. Later the propositioned/approached male claims he was the victim of sexual abuse. I don't believe this is abuse. In my opinion, he is just feeling guilty for having had a homosexual sexual encounter. I take the same view of teen experimentation and preteen experimentation, provided there are no physical threats and the participants are reasonably close in age, competance & maturity. Peace, Andrew


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#44666 - 06/25/03 06:43 PM Re: Defining Your Sexual Abuse
godsrabbit Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 98
thank you joe...i am soory if i seem at my wits end...this is very frustrating...

andrew, i apologize for decontextualizing your quote...what i really meant by posting it is that yes, i am a survivor of sexual abuse...but in this instance i nearly let my previous victimization make a very horrible decision for me...i nearly let it cloud my head so completely that i would lash out on anybody...even someone trying to help (misguided though it was...and he admitted that much)...we all need to be sensitive of other people's boundaries...he did not know i had been abused...he was simply naive...

is not the point of all of this (among MANY points) to try to teach other people to BE MORE SENSITIVE to one another and respect boundaries? even amongst ourselves...?

we are all survivors but in different ways. we need to respect our differences and not leap to conclusions about one another...

i am sorry for all of this...


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#44667 - 06/25/03 09:20 PM Re: Defining Your Sexual Abuse
dwf Offline
Moderator/BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 1223
Loc: Austin, Texas USA
Dear godsrabbit,

Your posting about the two episodes seemed quite reasonable to me.

I also appreciate your continuing to put the focus (not necessarily the blame, but the focus) back on yourself, where you actually have the possibility of making some change.

It took me a long time to be able to admit that I was sexually abused. I was compelled to admit it intellectually when the story of my life matched EXACTLY the definition of abuse I saw over and over again.

It took me even longer to get angry about it--I'm still working on that as a matter of fact.

Getting stuck in the anger would IMHO be perhaps more dangerous than when I got stuck in denial.

Anger and blaming are a stage in my progress to recovery--getting stuck there can have really negative consequences for myself.

I may start seeing abuse everywhere, even where it is not; might begin to blame my own weaknesses on the abuse when in fact the weakness existed before the abuse and was only exacerbated by it.

It can start to make me sicker, rather than well.

I'm reminded of the story from a friend in recovery.

Being absorbed with anger and hatred towards the perpetrator is like a man drinking poison and expecting the hated person to die.
That's not how poison works; that's not how anger works.
So getting angry about the abuse and giving up responsibility for the abuse that is not rightfully mine, is an critical step for me.

I think of my anger as adrenalin; vital to saving my life in measured amounts, but toxic to my system as a way of life.

My anger at the abuse certainly does not give me carte blanche to accuse anyone who vexes me of abuse. These are things that are to be decided on an individual basis in consultation with professionals and/or spiritual advisors.

My thinking in regards to abuse and many other things is damaged and I must recognize the need to seek and accept help from trustworthy people.
Sounds like exactly what you did--it's your call.

I also give myself the right to change mind..... or not.

The story I tell myself of what happened in my life has changed dramatically in just a small amount of time. It is likely to change, grow , expand again.

The black/white dichotomy that is so tempting for me as a survivor to adopt is not a plan for living because it does not reflect the truth of life.

Your experience is your experience. No one elses.

We can argue about theories, but as survivors we must be allowed the opportunity to honor our truth.

Coming to a forum like this gives me a chance to bounce my version of what happened off other people's world view.

I honestly don't believe that anyone here meant to berate you or minimize the reality of your experience. Still I can appreciate that it certainly felt that way to you. And I'm sorry for any hurt you might be feeling.

Sounds like you went to hell and back with this stuff, and for that you have my complete respect.

Keep challenging me, keep questioning my motivations. It's good for me. It's healthy.

It's part of the normal give and take of human interaction.

It's beautiful.

It's also the antithesis of the dialectic of power that dehumanizes human beings through the sickness that is sexual abuse.

When I was alone and being abused, I never questioned out loud, I never disagreed with the point of view of the perpetratror.

Part of my recovery is allowing that part of myself to grow and flourish.

Your comments here tonight have helped me do that.

I appreciate your presence here, and ask you to please continue to post--not just for your sake, but for mine.

Thank you.

Grateful for diversity of opinion,

I remain,

Your fellow survivor,

_________________________
"Poke salad Annie, 'gators got you granny
Everybody said it was a shame
'Cause her mama was aworkin' on the chain-gang"

-Tony Joe White

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#44668 - 06/25/03 11:39 PM Re: Defining Your Sexual Abuse
The Dean Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 2080
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
Quote:
Originally posted by TheDean:
There are some things we are not free to decide on our own. For instance, sexual harassment. If any person feels uncomfortable by what someone does, says, jokes about etc. the person who is uncomfortable needs to say; "STOP, I do not appreciate what you are doing and you are not to do it again!" Anything done after that is sexual harassment, according to the law.

This may make us really angry. We may think it is not fair. We may want to work really hard to change the law. But, at the seminar I attended, I was told that harassment is harassment, it is defined and explained by others and we have to obey those laws or be willing to suffer the consequences.

I have had women tell me some jokes that really embarassed me. I did not tell them, and did not ask them, to stop it. When they told some more, really salacious stories, it was not harassment because I had not told them that they were to cease and desist. Had, I done so, it would have been harassment, not because I said it was harassment, but because the law says so. I do not have to report harassment against me. But if I do, I do not get to call the shots--the law has already done that--at least in so far as the workplace is concerned.

Dr. Gartner, in his book speaks about people being betrayed and violated, but not FEELING abused, nor traumatized. e.g. the 15 year old boy who has wild passionate sex with his 32 year old female teacher. He will insist that he was not abused, that he wanted it and it is no one else's business. He's in LOVE!

Sorry Lad, that is not your call. The law in almost all, if not all, 50 States of the USA, says that, until one is 18 years old, they can not statutorially make a decision to have sex--not with a 32 year old teacher and not with his 15 year old girl friend.

I am sorry if you were angered and disillusioned by my remarks godsrabbit. I admit, I had a very visceral reaction. I feel badly that you are feeling so misunderstood here, and certainly by me. I try to understand and see what the picture is of what a poster is saying. I did feel, apparently very incorrectly, that you did not feel yourself abused, even though you had said that he should not put his arm around you and that you were uncomfortable. My reaction is based on my own experience of thinking that some of what occurred in the 50 or 60 rapes I had, was not abuse. I have come to see that it was all abuse in my case. It would be abuse if it happened to any teenage boy. So, I reacted strongly, probably being overly protective of you and just the opposite happenen you felt denigrated and talked down to. For that I am certainly sorry. I never meant to imply that you are an idiot. But I really do not think that we have the right to decide what is and is not abuse. That would get very dangerous indeed.

We do not need to loosen what is deemed abuse, we need to make it emminently clear, what the boundaries are that society has set. And it appears society may well want to loosen or broaden those boundaries.

I do not watch a lot of TV. I am not a parent. If I were a parent I would give myself over full time, to trying to have a class action suit brought against dozens of so called "sit coms" that pervert the morals of our children, who make kids think that sex is no more a moral matter than drinking a glass of water. Words, sooner or later, have to mean something or we cannot communicate.

I may not have felt betrayed and violated in certain aspects of the abuse I endured. However, as kind and understanding and compassionate as I want to be, I could not say that it was ok, because I say it was ok, and I really didn't mind all that much. The man broke the law in a serious way and deserved to be punished for his crime.

We have been told many times that if we have a hard time seeing what happened to us as abuse, just ask ourselves if it would be abuse, if it happened to someone else. I have found that helpful.

godsrabbit, I may well have not understood well enough what you were saying. I may well have reacted without thinking it through. If you feel good about what happened to you with your fellow employee and are satisfied by the results of the mediation then it apparently did you no harm. I do have to tell you though, that if the same thing, under the same circumstances had happened to me, I would have filed charges and insisted, after his admission that he had indeed violated your boundaries, that he be penalized in some way as stated by the law. I do not think that makes me right and you wrong, I think it just means that we have different attitudes towards people touching our persons. For me, that is VERY limited.

Discussions like this certainly broaden my mind and point out to me the differences we all have in boundaries. I think it is helpful for me to see that some of you give much more latitude than I would. I probably have some work to do on that.

Bob


_________________________
If we do not live what we believe, then we will begin to believe what we live.

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#44669 - 06/26/03 12:23 AM Re: Defining Your Sexual Abuse
godsrabbit Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 98
i have been trying to respond to this and cannot, though there is so much i want to say...

thank you danny and bob for your words...i will sleep on this and try to put together some coherent words tomorrow...i am sorry to be such trouble...i try to listen very openly...but i have always had a hard time putting together words and people seem to misunderstand me a lot, so i am sure it is no fault of anyone here...forgive me...i am just tired....

caritas all,

~ rabbit


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#44670 - 06/26/03 01:53 AM Re: Defining Your Sexual Abuse
ScottyTodd Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/12/03
Posts: 1561
Loc: Pennsylvania
godsrabbit - "I'm sorry to be such trouble" you said. I am sorry you feel that you are trouble here. EVERYONE HAS A RIGHT to speak their mind. I respect your right to hold your beliefs and state them WITHOUT APOLOGY or feeling like you are "fighting" uphill. This areana is one in which we speak our own minds from our own experiences and AGREE TO DISAGREE without any winners or losers - right/wrongs, etc. We speak our honest feelings and thoughts; respect where we each are in our respective places. There is no right and wrong feelings - just our own personal feelings without judgement.

One of the really beautiful aspects of this site, is I can read all sides to an issue... study it against my own experiences...make up my own mind...without expecting anyone to agree or disagree with me but have always encountered respect for my feelings, thoughts and conclusions.

Please don't be upset at disagreements, we are all interested in the same thing - healing - from what we all shared in our past.

Keep talking and sharing, guys! I look forward to ALL of us participating in our healing! Thanks!

Howard \:\)

_________________________
If you think you can or you can't - you're right!.......anon
It's never too late to have a happy childhood!.....anon
You're very normal for the abnormal situation you've been through..............S. Todd

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#44671 - 06/26/03 01:00 PM Re: Defining Your Sexual Abuse
The Dean Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 2080
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
godsrabbit, I wrote a not to you on your pm's I won't repeat that here.

We do not need to apologise for sharing what we feel and believe and have experienced. As I mentioned to you, I think you are a most gentle man and it is great to have you here. You offer a very good, stable and comapssionate view.

Bulls in the china shop like me, if there are any others here, desperately need men like you to help us slow down, back off and think things through. You are a gift to MS. I really hope you won't apologise again for giving what you give. It is not a problem, it is a gift.

You are a good man rabbit--you help me a lot in your patience and gentle ways. I think many of the guys here feel that same way.

We don't argue sports here--this is much more important than such ephemeral things. So we will disagree, but don't confuse disagreements with lack or respect or appreciation of a different viewpoint.

Peace to you rabbit.

Bob

_________________________
If we do not live what we believe, then we will begin to believe what we live.

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#44672 - 06/26/03 03:25 PM Re: Defining Your Sexual Abuse
godsrabbit Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 98
bless you howard and bob...

and thank you, all of you for your patience..i will try very hard to not take so much of this so personally...i am feeling so vulnerable, but you are helping me to learn to deal with these kinds of responses, which is what i need perhaps...

and i am sorry to always be saying i am sorry (see, i cannot stop)...!...ha

bob, thank you for your pm...i will respond, but i wanted to say here that i appreciate your support, it has been immensely helpful...i was upset because yes, i just made a silly assumption that you and i would share a worldview (which we probably do), but that does not mean either one of us is not fully human and prone to respond from the sensitive places in our hearts...particularly on topics so close to painful wounds...

to try to take this back on topic, i think the most difficult part of defining abuse for me is that i get discouraged at knowing however one defines it, it is a part of you for life...and that sometimes, no matter how much therapy or love or spirituality or whatever you have done to try to heal the core of your being, you cannot hammer all the dents out of your anima...however much i remind myself that i am NOT damaged goods, i also know that, like a truck engine, once you wreck the vehicle, it never really quite runs the same...

so there is defining the abuse and then there is redefining oneself in the aftermath of the abuse...we do not have to live lives defined by the hurt and the grief we feel, but it will somehow always be part of the definition...

i for one want to make sure that it is not always the first definition: hi i am rabbit and i am a survivor of sexual abuse...

i would much rather be: hi i am rabbit and i really like pie...

i know i disagree with many of you very strongly about this and i do not denigrate the advocacy work that you do...i think it is a very powerful and positive thing...but i do not believe that everyone is called to it just because they are survivors...no more than every woman is called to be a feminist or every gay man is called to march in a pride parade or pick your cause...i am not a victim who needs to draw attention to me...i have had enough shame and humiliation in my life...and there are a hundred ways to be an advocate without draping yourself in a banner...

for me, dignity is found in humility and in acceptance and in dedication to righting the wrong in whatever manner you are called to, never in anger...not even that which is righteous...and never in the agendas of others....

(i have gone way off topic...have a head full of words and cannot seem to focus...and i am trying very hard not to apologize...)...ha....


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#44673 - 06/26/03 03:26 PM Re: Defining Your Sexual Abuse
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
I try to answer this one.

The adult sexually touching the child-----This happens of course very much with my coach. It is actual, I realize that he touch us all in that
way. He would touch us in private areas, tell us he is making sure our clothes fit right, not too tight to perform at our sport. But he would
linger his hands on us in those areas. Then for me, and for others I am sure, it goes past that into much more serious things.

Having the child touch the adult sexually------This is how he start to take it beyond just him touching me wrong. He would make me to touch him,
and then go more to do other things for him in sexual way. This one worries me, I think there is more of this one, and the one above, with another
person also. Have to talk more at my friend who brings it up at me. Do not want to say more of this now

Photographing the child for sexual purposes-----He does not do this in sexual way. But I see him sometimes, he will watch video of our practice
work, and watch it in his office as he does his self-pleasure.

Sexualized talk-----I do not know that this happens from him. He speaks always most vulgar, but I do not know that he does what this includes.

Showing the child pornographic materials or making them available to the child-----No, I do not think this happens with him

Making fun of or ridiculing the child's sexual development, pereferences, or organs-----This, this happen much. He was watch us shower, and change clothes, no one liked that very well. He will watch us close with this, and sometimes he make comment about other people's body parts. And he always call me "queer" and "faggot". He say that at some other people too.

The adult exposing his or her genitals to the child for sexual gratification-----Yes, of course this must happen with him, he does much more than this

Masturbating or otherwise being sexual in front of the child-----Yes, this happens some, but not often, he do more than this at me

Voyeurism-----I do not know what this is

Forcing overly rigid rules on dress or overly revealing dress-----No, I do not think of this that he does. But as I say, he does touch us and he choose what we wear to compete

Stripping to hit or spank, or getting sexual excitement out of hitting-----Who is it that has clothes off? This means that the adult takes
clothes off to hit or spank the child? Or that the child has pants down for spanking? My father, he will do that sometimes before he leaves us

Verbal and emotional abuse of a sexual nature-----I can not say it all, but yes, this is big part of what he does at me. And it is not of sexual
part, but he always call me fat, ugly also

Having the child be sexual with animals-----No

Engaging the child in prostitution-----Do not wish to speak of this

Witnessing others being sexually abused("Abused Boys" pp 8 & 9)-----No, other than as I say before


I am sorry, this is most I respond at a post, I need to leave now for a while. To think of all this, it makes me stay thinking.

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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