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#440872 - 07/14/13 03:53 PM the gospels in history
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 5417
Loc: O Kanada
University Lecture about New Testament Manuscripts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnr6qU9FOZ4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xH93PSZ6fQ

Bart D. Ehrman is an American New Testament scholar, currently the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

'Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why' is a book by Bart D. Ehrman, a New Testament scholar at University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. The book introduces lay readers to the field of textual criticism of the Bible. Ehrman discusses a number of textual variants that resulted from intentional or accidental manuscript changes during the scriptorium era. This book made it to the New York Times Best Seller list.
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#440885 - 07/14/13 05:42 PM Re: the gospels in history [Re: victor-victim]
nltsaved Offline


Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 893
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If God can handle making ALL of this I am sure what he wanted in the bible would be and is in the bible. It is all fine and dandy for all the other books that have been translated and preserved through time as historians have always done through the centuries , But o no not the bible it is not reliable but the others are
Come on please
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#440898 - 07/14/13 08:52 PM Re: the gospels in history [Re: nltsaved]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 5417
Loc: O Kanada
i did some research on what he said.

here is the first thing i have looked into.

the translation from greek by John Mill,
Novum Testamentum Graecum,
cum lectionibus variantibus MSS (Oxford 1707)

http://www.csntm.org/printedbook/viewbook/JohnMillNovumTestamentum1707

which led me to here:
An introduction to the critical study and knowledge of the Holy Scriptures (1828)
Volume 1
http://archive.org/details/introductiont01horn
http://archive.org/download/introductiont01horn/introductiont01horn.pdf

Volume 2
http://archive.org/details/introductiontho02horn
http://archive.org/download/introductiontho02horn/introductiontho02horn.pdf

which led me to the Textus Receptus
http://dbwf.net/images/TRStephanus.pdf
http://archive.org/details/TextusReceptusscrivener1860
http://archive.org/download/TextusReceptusscrivener1860/TextusReceptus-StephensScrivener1860.pdf
http://bitflow.dyndns.org/greek/Bible/Greek-New_Testament_Scrivener_Textus_Receptus_1894.txt

lots of reading to do now smile

Textual criticism and the Textus Receptus

"John Mill (1645–1707), collated textual variants from 82 Greek manuscripts. In his Novum Testamentum Graecum, cum lectionibus variantibus MSS (Oxford 1707) he reprinted the unchanged text of the Editio Regia, but in the index he enumerated 30,000 textual variants.[11]
Shortly after Mill published his edition, Daniel Whitby (1638–1725), attacked his work. He claimed that the autographs of the New Testament were identical to the Textus Receptus, and that the text had never been corrupted. He believed the text of the Holy Scripture was endangered by the 30,000 variants in Mill's edition. Whitby claimed that every part of the New Testament should be defended against these variants.[12]
Johann Albrecht Bengel (1687–1752), in 1725 edited Prodromus Novi Testamenti Graeci Rectè Cautèque Adornandi, in 1734 edited Novum Testamentum Graecum. Bengel divided manuscripts into families and subfamilies. He favoured the principle of lectio difficilior potior ("the more difficult reading is the stronger").
Johann Jakob Wettstein. His Apparatus was fuller than of any previous editor. He introduced the practice of indicating the ancient manuscripts by capital Roman letters and the later manuscripts by Arabic numerals. He published in Basel Prolegomena ad Novi Testamenti Graeci (1731).
J. J. Griesbach (1745–1812) combined the principles of Bengel and Wettstein. He enlarged the Apparatus by considering more citations from the Fathers, and various versions, such as the Gothic, the Armenian, and the Philoxenian. Griesbach distinguished a Western, an Alexandrian, and a Byzantine Recension.[13] Christian Frederick Matthaei (1744–1811) was a Griesbach opponent.
Karl Lachmann (1793–1851), was the first who broke with the Textus Receptus. His object was to restore the text to the form in which it had been read in the ancient Church about A.D. 380. He used the oldest known Greek and Latin manuscripts. Tischendorf's Editio Octava Critica Maior based on Codex Sinaiticus.
Westcott and Hort, published The New Testament in the Original Greek in 1881, in which they rejected Textus Receptus. The text is based mainly on Codex Vaticanus in the Gospels.[14]
The majority of textual critical scholars since the late 19th Century, have adopted an eclectic approach to the Greek New Testament; with the most weight given to the earliest extant manuscripts which tend mainly to be Alexandrian in character; the resulting eclectic Greek text departing from the Textus Receptus in around 6,000 readings. A significant minority of textual scholars, however, maintain the priority of the Byzantine text-type; and consequently prefer the "Majority Text". No school of textual criticism now continues to defend the priority of the Textus Receptus; although this position does still find adherents amongst the King-James-Only Movement, and other Protestant groups opposed to the discipline of text criticism—as applied to scripture.
"
http://www.bible-researcher.com/kutilek1.html
http://textus-receptus.com/wiki/Textus_Receptus
http://www.power4deliverance.org/books/Textus%20Receptus%20scan.pdf
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#440901 - 07/14/13 09:57 PM Re: the gospels in history [Re: victor-victim]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 480
Loc: USA
So, what exactly is the point?
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#440909 - 07/15/13 01:03 AM Re: the gospels in history [Re: victor-victim]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 5417
Loc: O Kanada
becoming more informed.
getting the details.
checking the facts.
doing the research.
looking at sources.
seeking the knowledge.
digging for wisdom.
enlightenment?
curiousity?
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#440930 - 07/15/13 09:32 AM Re: the gospels in history [Re: victor-victim]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 480
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: victor-victim
becoming more informed.
getting the details.
checking the facts.
doing the research.
looking at sources.
seeking the knowledge.
digging for wisdom.
enlightenment?
curiousity?


Personally, I come here to find healing from 15+ years of abuse. My faith helps a lot in that regard. I don't come here to get slammed as being uninformed, unenlightened, unwise, uneducated, etc. about being a believer.
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#440956 - 07/15/13 04:36 PM Re: the gospels in history [Re: victor-victim]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 5417
Loc: O Kanada
who is slamming you?
i am talking about myself.

as a believer, i want access to the most accurate historical and spiritual information i can find.
as a survivor, i am very interested in the story of the bible.
it is a very important book in my life.
therefore, i believe, exploring the various versions of the gospels and understanding how the scriptures originated is essential to my faith.
i have no less then 10 different bibles in my library, and no two are the same.
somewhere between all those translations is the wisdom.

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#440958 - 07/15/13 04:55 PM Re: the gospels in history [Re: victor-victim]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 480
Loc: USA
Ok I can accept that. It came across as: this is what others need to do. So I'm sorry I misread that.

The guy in the video is clearly a non-believer, and takes a very condescending approach to believers. That much I got very clearly and for me anyway, I can't take direction from someone about faith who thinks it's a joke to begin with.
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#440961 - 07/15/13 05:34 PM Re: the gospels in history [Re: victor-victim]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 5417
Loc: O Kanada

bart ehrman's facts are solid.
they stand up to study and scrutiny.
that is the bottom line.
i have no idea whether he is a believer, but he knows what he is talking about.
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#440964 - 07/15/13 05:56 PM Re: the gospels in history [Re: victor-victim]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 480
Loc: USA
Thank you for clarifying.
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#441019 - 07/16/13 05:08 AM Re: the gospels in history [Re: victor-victim]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 5417
Loc: O Kanada
bart ehrman also says during his lecture, that almost all of the "variations" are insignificant and irrelevant.
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#442259 - 07/26/13 06:47 PM Re: the gospels in history [Re: victor-victim]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
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Loc: O Kanada
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#442263 - 07/26/13 07:24 PM Re: the gospels in history [Re: victor-victim]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 5417
Loc: O Kanada
had a good long talk with my pastor about these variations in the greek new testament.
he said he was aware of them,
but they do not significantly change the message of the gospel.

i agree.
the variations are insignificant.
unless some scribe changes the core of the message,
(i.e. thou shalt NOT love thy neighbour as thyself)
this is not a threat to my belief or faith.
it had little or no influence.

my pastor pointed out some important points to remember:

when jesus refers to not changing one word of the bible...
matthew 5:18
http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-18.htm
he is talking about the old testament.
he is NOT talking about the new testament, which, of course, did not exist yet.

when we are warned against changing the word of god
revelation 22:18-19
http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Re22.18-19
the verse is specifally referring to the book of revelation.

Deuteronomy 4:2
http://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/4-2-compare.html
this talks about commandments from god.

proverbs 30:6
http://www.biblestudytools.com/proverbs/30-6.html
refers to false prophecy

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#442285 - 07/26/13 11:05 PM Re: the gospels in history [Re: victor-victim]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 480
Loc: USA
There is some debate about your conclusions. Since Jesus knew the new and old testaments would exist. Some also believe that the reference in Revelation refers to the entire bible, and others say just for that book alone. Have heard interesting arguments on both sides, so you make good points I think.
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#443594 - 08/07/13 02:34 AM Re: the gospels in history [Re: BuffaloCO]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 5417
Loc: O Kanada
i don't ever really come to conclusions.
that is far too final.
but planning requires parameters and paradigms.

so... for practical purposes,
i do create operating systems
based on best estimates
subject to constant revision.

i am always seeking new confirmation information.
trying to build on a firm foundation.

"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." Romans 12:2
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#449252 - 10/05/13 05:30 AM Re: the gospels in history [Re: victor-victim]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 5417
Loc: O Kanada
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5uR75rxgks

The Bible and Christianity


interesting lecture on new testament history by Manly P. Hall.
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#452936 - 11/08/13 02:34 PM Re: the gospels in history [Re: victor-victim]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 5417
Loc: O Kanada
here is an interesting approach.
The Five Gospels
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/det...ader_006063040X
brought to you by the "Jesus Seminar"

Their Mission...
according to Jesus Seminar founder Robert W. Funk.

"We are about to embark on a momentous enterprise. We are going to inquire simply, rigorously after the voice of Jesus, after what he really said.

In this process, we will be asking a question that borders the sacred, that even abuts blasphemy, for many in our society. As a consequence, the course we shall follow may prove hazardous. We may well provoke hostility
."

they did provoke my curiousity.

http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Five_Gospels.pdf
http://www.bible-researcher.com/5gospels.html


here is the supposed "5th gospel"
http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~rfrey/PDF/166/Judaism%20Christianity/166Thomas.pdf

you can call me a doubting thomas smirk

some related research
http://www.westarinstitute.org/projects/the-jesus-seminar/
http://www.westarinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/Jesus-Seminar-Opening-Remarks.pdf
http://www.equip.org/PDF/JAR011.pdf
http://www.ccel.org/p/pink/gospels/cache/gospels.pdf
http://www.churchathome.org/pdf/A%20Harmony%20of%20the%20Gospels.pdf
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#453143 - 11/10/13 03:00 PM Re: the gospels in history [Re: victor-victim]
JustScott Offline
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Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2591
A good study of the members of the "Jesus" seminar will reveal that their real purpose was to promote their opinion that what is mostly in the Bible is a bunch of made up bunk and petty much would take a passage and they vote based on their mostly opinions on if they thought Jesus said something or not.

We did a pretty good study on it when I was in college.

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#453175 - 11/10/13 09:44 PM Re: the gospels in history [Re: victor-victim]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 5417
Loc: O Kanada
that is the impression i got, from their own words.
mostly the founder... funk.
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#474858 - 01/11/15 01:15 AM Re: the gospels in history [Re: nltsaved]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 5417
Loc: O Kanada
here are some apocryphal texts.
for those who wish to venture beyond the bible.






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