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#440062 - 07/04/13 03:45 PM Should not be a trigger.
ThisMan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/22/13
Posts: 767
Loc: upper south
Not a trigger... If it is, uh-oh. Come back later and read again... .. seriously.

From a posting of about a month ago, one of members of the site just expressed his views on the questioning of the existence of God. It is the age old question that men of faith have asked for millennia. I understand his question. I understand his frustration. Simply put, I understand. Most of us do understand.

One of the responses he received was the following:

"If you live your life, true to God, then you will indeed reap the rewards, that you deserve." I don't remember who said this, etc., and it is irrelevant. The thread had advanced into 13 or 14 pages... so...

Never do I step into a debate regarding God or spiritual matters, one way or the other. But I feel compelled to share my feelings regarding this one posters struggles and views.

If this is true... reaping the rewards we deserve... are we to assume that the rewards of CSA and ASA are just and willful punishment handed down from a spiritual level? I will assume that is a no. Hopefully, it is a no.

I will take it to a personal level for ME ONLY. Therefore, no one should feel threatened by the thoughts I share. I - as in ME - only in my thoughts- could not have deserved to have been molested, then raped, at the age of 4 and 5. Or the ensuing years and not at 13 and 14 and continuing. And not at 50 - just ain't no way a good man who does good things in life - deserves to have his reward to be sexually and physically assaulted. Ain't no way. And, just for the record, I no longer question, "why me?" I have come to realize, I could have also died-

Come, if you will, to the early part of my middle age... say around 40. At the age of 21, I was baptized... in a creek.. none the less. How old fashioned is that? Almost 20 yrs later, I was a church deacon in a well-known denomination. A standard of middle American society. Helping the weak, the elderly, doing the family thing, giving to the poor, and stepping up and talking about the abuse in church and on and on..... even my career of choice was one of helping others. AND I was a Sunday School teacher along with my spouse... I believed it all and did the perfectly molded thing to do.

... I was doing good and believing good....the whole family was doing the work set before us.

And so what was the reward. One of the most horrific cancers came to claim the spouse. The manifestation of the brains cells into a malignancy in the grey matter destroyed all semblance of sanity. Behavior, emotion, everything...changed. This was not the reward one would expect for loving and working and doing good on a spiritual nature. It was a nightmare that continued for years and years. And then one day it was over.

It was as horrible for me- worse for my boys- and doubly worse for the wife... she eventually realized how the tumor had changed her and what had taken place i the family... and then of course the tumors returned. And she eventually died- blind, unable to speak, knowing not me, the children, her family or friends- and totally out of touch with reality. It was again, the saddest experience.. well, you get the picture... . It was not a just reward for a life well spent.

I say this just to point out that the love of God is not so easily black and white. I myself am not angry with God. I had my moment when I finally acknowledged the inner anger, then it was over. It was during this almost decade of dealing with the spouse and her cancered behavior that my spiritual gifts became their most keen. Just incredible. And at the end of this phase of life's journey that I witnessed the spiritual events that changed my perception of traditional, in-the-church, from pulpit to pew, view of God and all things spiritual.

I won't go into how I have changed. But on a spiritual level, I have. My belief has just intensified.

I just want to say again and again that not always are our rewards in line with how we live or what we believe. They just aren't. They just ARE NOT. Most of how I view things of the spiritual nature are pulled from the Bible because that is my most readily available source of information to help explain what I have experienced. Most of the Bible is "good stuff" when it is used to love and accept and teach and learn.

To all of us, I urge compassion. True, honest, heart-felt compassion. Be not readily available to use the Bible to underscore your opinions. The world itself is full of various beliefs and experiences and groups.

Another quick posting that I choose not to copy and paste stated that without this narrow inclusion of God (as per this belief) we are left with a life of condemnation and shame and guilt and deservedly so.

No. A thousand times no. Calmly, peacefully, lovingly, I am telling you no. We are created for love in our lives. To receive the love of the Christ, the God. To receive the love of our fellows in this world and on this journey. The shame and the guilt is given to us by those that have abused us- the abusers. It is bestowed upon us by our families. It is even given to us by our churches or our synagogues or ... even our government.

It should never be given to us by believers and followers of the teachings of Christ.

And yes, I am different now. How wonderfully awesome for me. Some will pause and say, "hmmm. Food for thought." Others will say, "yeah, but look at his open admittance of his now sexuality". It's all okay with me. The goodness of God is around me, about me, a part of me. And yes, I even pray again.

I wish you nothing but love and faith and many, many blessings... and a moment to ponder the words I shared. I probably rambled a bit, so forgive me on that.

b
_________________________
For now we see through a glass, darkly.



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#440071 - 07/04/13 05:46 PM Re: Should not be a trigger. [Re: ThisMan]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3007
Loc: O Kanada
concerning "getting what one deserves"...
i recommend a deep study and exploration of the book of job.

i have found answers to all MY questions in the bible.
i cannot say if it will resonate spiritually for others.

again... religion is not the bible.
but the bible is better than religion, drugs, violence, or dangerous risky behaviour.

i am still not 100% sure that the bible is THE "word of god" but it sure has helped me understand life.
and life is full of death.
_________________________
Victor|Victim

War
Love
Poetry

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#440079 - 07/04/13 08:04 PM Re: Should not be a trigger. [Re: ThisMan]
GoldStone Offline


Registered: 05/28/13
Posts: 220
Loc: Far East
Fantastic. Thank you.

From where I stand some are called to mediate the massive debt humankind has incurred. If Jesus paid for all of it as some christians insist, then why are we still paying? And why would Jesus say "carry your cross"?

You have shown it. You have paid it. You know it and now we know it.

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#440121 - 07/05/13 10:02 AM Re: Should not be a trigger. [Re: ThisMan]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 413
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: ThisMan

If this is true... reaping the rewards we deserve... are we to assume that the rewards of CSA and ASA are just and willful punishment handed down from a spiritual level? I will assume that is a no. Hopefully, it is a no.


I don't believe that our abuse is a reward or punishment handed down by God. I believe that rewards talked about in scripture refer to those we get in the Spiritual, not necessarily the natural. I know for certain that I do not understand everything in scripture, and that is why I keep trying to learn more about it by connecting with other believers.

I also know that we live in a world of free will, and even children are not free from the free will of others. Why? I don't have the answer but I think the Book of Job does explain as well as I can understand God's will. Almost like you could sum up God's message in that book with the words "because I said so." God's will is just beyond me to understand all of it. However, as survivors we can help stop abuse because we know how they operate, the predators, and we can fight them on their own level as they operate in the shadows, so free will runs in a good direction too.

I do know this too, even though we are subject to free will, God can take what is meant for our harm and turn it to our good. I will do that by turning this around and speaking publicly about abuse. In that, I hope others can see that they can find healing in places like MS, through T and yes, through a relationship with God. That may not work for others, but it is working for me. If I can help destroy the myths about abuse, and help others find healing just by speaking, then I'll be turning this bad into a good thing and it means "they" will not win in the end. I grew up with verbal, physical and sexual abuse so I can do more then just feel bad for others, I can relate on a personal level. Our stories may not be the same, but I have felt the hurts just the same. I hope can try to use that experience to help others find healing.

Most of all, it will mean that all the times I was told I would never have any human value was a lie that I will prove wrong. That means I win, they loose.
_________________________
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.” - Plato

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#440125 - 07/05/13 12:49 PM Re: Should not be a trigger. [Re: ThisMan]
genedebs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/12
Posts: 283
Loc: MO
To This Man, GoldStone, Buffalo, victor-victim:

Thank you for your sharing of your spiritual discoveries.

For myself, It is God's Mercy, that was woven into all existance. Just as it says the sins of the father will be visited unto the third and fourth generation. For what we learn from our ancestors we have the free will to repeat of not. One third will repeat, two thirds will not. Within 4 generations less than 1% of the abused will abuse others. The same capacity that makes us learn at the hands of our abusers, allows us to learn from the good (and the good unto the righteous for a thousand generations.)

So it is not that we receive what we deserve, but that we experience the world as it is, including the free will of others to terrorize, abuse and violate us. I do not believe this is God's will for us, no do I believe that getting cancer is an experienced earned by our behavior. (I do not doubt that smoking and other behavior contribute to cancer; but they are not all that determines the outcome)

What I believe is that the world is full of experiences and steps on our journey. The spiritual aspects infuse the physical world. All events can occur without any intervention. Other events cannot occur without a spiritual explanation. My father was brain dead in 1984. From before 2 am in the morning, when the doctors called, until 6:50 AM. After prayers for him from my wife, children, and myself, he awoke. The nurse called me down the hall in the hospital. My father lived for 17 more years.

You can accept that this is a spiritual experience, or as my mother explained it, just an error by everyone in the hospital and errors on all the machines.

I know that my God has mercy for all, and forgives us not for our selves but for the sake of the covenant He made with our ancestors.

May the Lord Bless You and Keep you may His countenance shine upon you and grant you peace,

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#441186 - 07/17/13 05:12 PM Re: Should not be a trigger. [Re: BuffaloCO]
ThisMan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/22/13
Posts: 767
Loc: upper south
Quote:
[/quote] I can relate on a personal level. Our stories may not be the same, but I have felt the hurts just the same. I hope can try to use that experience to help others find healing.quote]


I know our stories are different, but the same. All of us are connected that way. I hope I didn't indicate that I don't understand that or that I was somehow special in all the world. If I did, I apologize.

I have read Job a kathousand times it seems. Each time I find myself wondering the same... who is the villain ?.... the devil for his work, God for His indifference and experimentation in wanting to see Job's reaction, his friends for their condemnation, Job's for his whining? And I wonder who the victims truly are... is it Job? or his sons? or daughters? or his animals perhaps?

You get the picture. It seems to me to be a circular story in which many, many views may be drawn. Basically, I draw from it to say, there is no "rhyme or reason" in life. Some may continually prosper, some may not. Bad things happen to good people. And I'll leave it at that. Any questions I have regarding my life, I will find the answer to ... probably never, so I don't dwell on that often.

The most important thing to me is in the original post. And that is that I believe in the compassion and love of the teachings of Christ. I want to be lifted up. I want to read about the GOOD things in others life. I want to have more opportunities to teach art classes to AIDS survivors, or to plant the gardens for the residences of the Solomon House, and a thousand other things that show the love of God.

I want to hear things about reaching out to the world and showing kindness and experiences that help others. I don't want to be preached at, slammed into, shamed into the shadows, or told where my heart is. Being a man of CSA and ASA, very few know where my heart is. But the God does. Ah... beginning to ramble....... but thank you for your kindness in the postings. I needed to feel that and I did.



Edited by ThisMan (07/17/13 05:15 PM)
_________________________
For now we see through a glass, darkly.



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#441203 - 07/17/13 09:12 PM Re: Should not be a trigger. [Re: ThisMan]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3007
Loc: O Kanada
ThisMan,

your JOB summary is pretty much in tune with mine.

"deserve" is a loaded word, and even more so for survivors of child abuse.

we are not unique however, in our desire to question god's apparent indifference to the suffering of innocents and the so-called "success" of sociopaths. even as a believer in god, the creator, i still consider doubt a healthy defense habit.
doubt leads to questions.
questions lead to research which very often lead to answers, which usually lead to more questions.
this process of discovery eventually leads to knowledge, which leads to power. and after all, that is why we are here on this website... to reclaim our spiritual power.

isn't that what sexual abuse is mostly about: power?

and if we are careful, once we have recovered our lost power, this power will not corrupt, but lead us to wisdom and peace.
_________________________
Victor|Victim

War
Love
Poetry

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#441267 - 07/18/13 06:01 PM Re: Should not be a trigger. [Re: ThisMan]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 413
Loc: USA
My understanding of the Book of Job comes down to two sets of four words:"Because I said so..." or "Because I love you..." I do not think we have the ability to understand the mind of God, and know that he sees all of time at once where we only see part of it.

Am not sure I agree that sexual abuse is mostly about power. It may be power sometimes, but the people who got to me clearly had a lust motive for boys. I think often it is as much about lust as it is about power. Yeah I know that goes against conventional thought, but I question the motives behind that thinking.

I can only speak for me, and knowing what I heard from "them" as they used me but lust was clear for them.
_________________________
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.” - Plato

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#441274 - 07/18/13 07:05 PM Re: Should not be a trigger. [Re: ThisMan]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3007
Loc: O Kanada
i echo your thoughts as well, BuffaloCO.
whenever i get too spiritually rebellious and catch myself becoming critical of god,
i usually get a big slice of humble pie served up.

who am i to question the authority of the creator of the universe?
i can't even manage my own department efficiently.

as far as lust vs. power.
"Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac."
- Henry Kissinger

i sort of think that lust is the feeling of intoxication that i experience when i have the sensation or the illusion of power.
it is a poor substitute for love,
but ultimately preferable to the dread, fear and panic which occurs when i feels powerless, vulnerable, and/or threatened.
the true power and love of god trumps all these earthbound emotions,
if and when i can find it.
unfortunately i am unable to sustain that mood for any substantial length of time.
i have to keep going back to the source to get a refill.
i wish i could stay tuned to the love/god/creator frequency
all the time,
but life comes with many challenges and distractions.
_________________________
Victor|Victim

War
Love
Poetry

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#441275 - 07/18/13 07:08 PM Re: Should not be a trigger. [Re: ThisMan]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 413
Loc: USA
maybe power was a turn on too for them, but the lies they told me for years are no longer chains around me either
_________________________
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.” - Plato

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