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#437855 - 06/11/13 06:50 PM What is the love of a male?
David Mac Offline


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 57
Loc: Pacific North West
An article from a bibliography someone posted caught my eye. I found it at the library, "Response Patterns in Children and Adolescents Exploited Through Sex Rings and Pornography." The contributers presented research data on 66 children and adolescents involved with 14 male adults in 11 sex rings. They interviewed the youth and grouped their responses in categories.

One of the so-called response patterns is , "Identification with the exploiter." I would sum it up this way: the adolescent feels loved by the male adult preditor and loves him in return. A bond has been forged. Other bonds between family and peers are out of necessity, severed. (In an anology, the youth prefers a steady diet of pure candy and wants nothing of a well balanced meal.)

This made me think of a post I read recently: "For a child abandonment feels worse than abuse - that is pure gold."

The youth lives by 3 simple laws, principles which he will take into adult life:

1)Live 4 today.

2)Get what you can.

3)Sex is good.

It seemed to me the research team might have challenged this "response pattern" group because in short the youth defiantly stated basicly,

This is my reality.
It is true for me.
Therefore it is true.

Whose to argue?

Mac

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#438011 - 06/13/13 05:10 AM Re: What is the love of a male? [Re: David Mac]
focusedbody Offline


Registered: 02/03/13
Posts: 363
Loc: NY
Hi, David Mac.

Although I was never used in child pornography, in my teens I was an actor and was interviewed for a porn magazine. This was an example of identification with the exploiter. The interviewer was my sister's boyfriend. He had been a somewhat positive influence on the family up until that point, but used my fame for his own purposes.

Your post is clear on how it feels to live the reality you described. Is there perhaps a bigger reality to consider, however? For me it has been important to consider my underlying confusion of what it means to be needed vs. what it means to be wanted.

A lot people appear to make clear choices in this regard. For instance, when someone is "wanted" in a relationship, they appear to be happy. When someone is "needed" in a relationship however, you don't see it as much. Being "wanted" seems closer to your experience. The predator "wants" the prey but can also easily discard it. Therefore the experience of being "needed" in a positive way is absent.

Where a lot of people get my story wrong is that they project onto me that I enjoyed being "wanted". That's why I was an actor, that's why I did the interview, etc. This is inaccurate, because when you are young, you can't completely distinguish between these two impulses. The predator takes advantage of you by creating the illusion of relationship of mutual need, when it is in reality just exploitation. What this has left me with is a constant intense need for intimacy that has no ability to distinguish between what's "wanted" and "needed" in a healthy way.

I know this sounds a bit involved, but I find that thinking it through helps me know what actually happened.

Hope this might help. Look forward to reading more of your posts.

Focused
_________________________
Lose the drama; life is a poem.

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#438194 - 06/14/13 04:32 PM Re: What is the love of a male? [Re: David Mac]
bodyguard8367 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1159
Loc: ""
""


Edited by bodyguard8367 (02/27/14 04:32 PM)

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#438202 - 06/14/13 05:12 PM Re: What is the love of a male? [Re: David Mac]
David Mac Offline


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 57
Loc: Pacific North West
Hey brothers, thanks for your posts. I could use a little time to think about them before I respond.

Geoff, the article was in the American Journal of Psychiatry, 1984, micro fische (sp) #14 I believe. The problem of my post is that I cut out facts and summed up findings to keep the post brief. Maybe you might sum things up differently.

Do you feel the question, "What is the love of a male?" inappropriate? Or do you feel the questions the research group asked the youths inappropriate?

Thanks again guys.

Mac

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#438208 - 06/14/13 06:29 PM Re: What is the love of a male? [Re: David Mac]
bodyguard8367 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1159
Loc: ""
""


Edited by bodyguard8367 (02/27/14 04:32 PM)

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#438286 - 06/15/13 03:34 PM Re: What is the love of a male? [Re: David Mac]
David Mac Offline


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 57
Loc: Pacific North West
Hey guys,

Focused, you are true to your name dude. For me, there is a bigger reality to consider.

20 yrs. ago I had a dream that I went looking for my true self. I found him hanging out. He was basically good, but a bit of a juvenile delinquent. I embraced him and from the depths of my heart I cried asking, "What happened?"

20 yrs. later the memories began to trickle in. Now I seek to discover what happened, not so much the sequence of events as who am I as a result of the sexual abuse. What kind of person am I?

I believe that sensuality and lust are highly contagious. The researchers discovered a group of older boys who identified with their abuser. In other words, they have in their persons those qualities of character which predators are made of. I am very sorry to write this. The research team highlighted their concern. They documented that one of the youths had pressed a girl for sex and when she refused, he struck her repeatedly on the head with a hammer.

Live for today.
Get what you can.
Sex is good.

No mature, loving male would live by these three principles. Yet those males who have identified with their abusers do. With relative moral values ruling the day, whose to say to this group, "you are on the wrong path."? Thus my question, "Whose to say?"

Mac

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#438345 - 06/16/13 05:24 AM Re: What is the love of a male? [Re: David Mac]
Jacob S Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 613
Loc: where the shadows lie
Morality is like nutrition. There may be things that people disagree on, there are adjustments that need to be made for different situations, and everyone needs to take ownership of their own path. But none of that means it is valid to say "I eat whatever I want, who is to say that is bad?" Objective observations show that is harmful. Same thing with morality. We can't force our morality onto other people, but they are certain things that any objective person would say "observations about the world show this harms people." So people can live how they want, but they don't get to call it moral. By definition, morality is concerned with the well-beings of others.
_________________________


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#438381 - 06/16/13 04:27 PM Re: What is the love of a male? [Re: David Mac]
David Mac Offline


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 57
Loc: Pacific North West
Hey focused,

To the distinction between needs and wants which you wrote, I would add that ultimately we are greater than the sum of our needs and wants.

For example, everybody wants to live. Nobody of sound mind wants to die. Yet there are those who might sacrifice their life to save another. Remember a couple years ago that black guy who jumped down into the rails of a NY subway to cover a person who fell into it?

A sex addict in withdrawl might feel the need to cruise all night on line. The addict in his obsessive thinking wants a hot guy. Overriding his needs and wants, he makes a phone call and makes a real connection with another fellow sufferer to stay sexually sober.

Hey, it's Father's Day. A great example is a man who goes to work faithfully every day. He brings his paycheck home to support his family. Maybe he doesn't make enough, so the days of nice clothes, gym memberships and fancy electronic toys are over. He doesn't mind. He lives for the well being of others whether they appreciate it or not. He is satisfied with what he has.

The willingness to generously sacrifice for another or for a greater good is in direct opposition to the philosophies "live for today" and "get what you can."

Mac

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#438491 - 06/17/13 07:38 PM Re: What is the love of a male? [Re: David Mac]
focusedbody Offline


Registered: 02/03/13
Posts: 363
Loc: NY

David Mac:

The very subject of desire brings up the fact that relationships are a two-way street. Where I get into trouble is in how I am desired. It is difficult for me to make a distinction between being needed and wanted because I don't hear the other person clearly. I have become too used to looking the other way and thinking that being needed for something (like sex) is more important than being wanted for who I am.

Originally Posted By: David Mac

Hey, it's Father's Day. A great example is a man who goes to work faithfully every day. He brings his paycheck home to support his family. Maybe he doesn't make enough, so the days of nice clothes, gym memberships and fancy electronic toys are over. He doesn't mind. He lives for the well being of others whether they appreciate it or not. He is satisfied with what he has.

Mac


The potential problem here is that there are men who will act as if they are the great sacrificers. They do something wonderful for us and in return, we are supposed to allow them a little exploitation. Yes, sorry, but that is how it was with my Dad and the man got me in the porno mag. As a boy, I was convinced they needed a little giving up of some dignity on my part, so that they would have the satisfaction of being a man. I suppose I thought they deserved it because somewhere along the line they had done more for me than I had ever done for them. Where I got that idea I'm not sure but it is clearer to me now that this is how the child rationalizes a distorted situation. The situation is not healthy and needs to be confronted for what it is--an unhealthy desire on the part of the older male to be wanted in a way that disregards the needs of a child.

Yes, being a Dad involves a change from the ease and comfort of focusing on yourself to the balancing act of looking after everyone in the family. But being a saint about one's own desires can obscure the reality of creating day to day happiness as well. I think that as men who have lost something in our boyhood, the courage to heal that loss is important so that our kids don't end up without a positive role model for being loved.

Focused


Edited by focusedbody (06/17/13 08:06 PM)
Edit Reason: additional thoughts

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#438575 - 06/18/13 05:26 PM Re: What is the love of a male? [Re: David Mac]
David Mac Offline


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 57
Loc: Pacific North West
Hey Focused,

I am really sorry to learn that it was your father who sold you out. My father incested me as a toddler and to pay off thugs, sold me, a 5.5 year old, to a child porn ring. Then after creating an ungodly relationship with me, left for a new life 3,000 miles away. If it wasn't over seas, I would have walked to be with him again.

Now I am in my early 50's. It has taken 30 yrs. of searching with God to get where I am now, and that's not saying much!

A couple years ago, I had a dream. I dreampt that I saw my dad sleeping. Suddenly, he breathed his last breath. His last exhale was very pronounced. Then I saw his soul leave his body and ascend. I was standing about two feet from his bed. I was the last person he saw on earth - a 5.5 yr. old boy. At that moment I was flooded with peace.

The dream was so vivid that I thought my dad actually had died. I made calls to my brothers who assured me that he was very much among the living. Months later I began to realize that that dream had severed me from any duties or obligations I as a son may have had towards a father. I have not seen him nor spoken to him for almost a year now. I am at peace.

Of course not all men are like our fathers. However,there are many men who are just as you quoted above and I have had the honor of knowing them. But more importantly, I do not need my father to come clean, admit fault, apologize or anything like that for my recovery.

So what kind of person am I? That's my focus. What are the areas in my life that need purification and healing? You say you confuse being needed and being wanted. I isolated from others and cultivated only the most superficial of relationships. So I needed nobody and nobody needed me. I met my need to be connected with others through cruising. It wasn't until I entered SA, sexaholics anonymous, that I exchanged isolating and self-destructive behaviors with real connectedness.

Now I enter into relationships that are non-sexual. I need their (the members of SA) comfort and support, and I want their friendship. I have both. Dude, they like me for who I am. Go figure. (It does spook me somewhat still.) I don't have to give up a little dignity in exchange for anything.

You are right about the way a child thinks, perceives and reasons. But I am not a child anymore, so I leave the distorted and convoluted thinking behind. I am an adult male and I am sexually sober. I am free to love others just as the male example above loves. I am no longer bound to that dreadful sense that I am not like others, or that I have missed the boat or lost something in boyhood.

I hope the same for you Focused. You strike me in your posts as a sincere person with a big heart, capable of loving and being loved in return.

Mac

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#438604 - 06/18/13 10:51 PM Re: What is the love of a male? [Re: David Mac]
focusedbody Offline


Registered: 02/03/13
Posts: 363
Loc: NY
Thanks, David Mac.

Will chew on that for a good while.

Best to you too,

Focused
_________________________
Lose the drama; life is a poem.

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