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#433412 - 05/03/13 05:14 PM Re: was it abuse? [Re: victor-victim]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3427
Loc: O Kanada
i wish it wasn't disgusting.
i would love to crawl back into my old paradigm, but i cannot do that on purpose.
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#433466 - 05/04/13 04:55 AM Re: was it abuse? [Re: victor-victim]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2024
Loc: durham, north england
Well one thing to bare in mind is that it was the event! that was disgusting, not you.

For me that's been one of the major battles, and no, it isn't easy, but it is possible with enough persistance.

"paradigm" is actually a good word, indeed if I remember rightly what I read of Thomas Kuhn and his theory of paradigm shift in science, he literally talked about people's hole landscape moving and people walking through completely new worlds afterwards, ---- so one set of scientists would literally "see!" the sun setting behind the flat earth, while the others would literally "see!" the earth turning away from the sun.

One thing to remember though, (and one thing Kuhn himself actually got wrong), is that there is an active element of will in perception as well. It is just as possible to consciously and forceably change the way something appears as it is to be unconsciously and irrationally affected by it, that's why I personally tend to think of recovery as a voluntary process and one that requires active persistance and participation, not just being at the whim of my own unconscious.

It does! get better, albeit I know there are points when it doesn't seem so, (heck, I still run into those points myself).

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#434380 - 05/11/13 05:29 PM Re: was it abuse? [Re: victor-victim]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3427
Loc: O Kanada
* TRIGGER WARNING *

this issue is becoming a bottomless pit for me.

careful reflection on this topic has led me to my earliest memories of sexual activity. preschool age, i was seduced by my female cousin. she had been abused by our uncle (she later disclosed but that is another story). we called it "playing house", and it was something we did at every available secret opportunity.

this was my first sexual contact with a female, and it has haunted me ever since. i had no idea what she was doing, but it was so intensely pleasurable, i cannot think about it without becoming aroused. so i avoid thinking about it.

she was definitely in control. she initiated. she set the rules and defined the roles. i was the "daddy" and she was the "mommy".

i can't remember why or when it stopped, but i know we did it numerous times. it was not actual sx, but we tried, in our ignorance to perform as "mommy and daddy".

i used to think that her and i shared something special.
my memories of this time in my life were once fond, but now it hurts to write this. once, i tried to confront her about it as an adult, but she said she did not want to discuss it. she blamed my uncle. when she disclosed this incest abuse to the police and they began an investigation, my family rallied around the uncle and attacked the victim. i have vivid memories of my mother screaming "liar" and "wh*re!" at her. i lost whatever trace of respect i had for my mother at that moment. there was not much respect there, but it disappeared. i knew i had to get away from her for my own survival. i have been trying unsuccessfully to live without my mother since i was 12 years old (1973).

i was the only person in the entire family who stood by my cousin, because i knew she was telling the truth. i told her that i believed her and would stand by her, but she has long since left town and cannot be reached.

the rest of the family that did not actively attack her, did not want to get involved.
they refuse to "take sides" or even discuss the situation, and to this day they act like it never happened.
if i bring it up, they tell me they do not wish to dwell on negative subjects and prefer to mindlessly discuss mundane meaningless matters.

i have not seen my cousin in almost 20 years.
the uncle has been in the hospital for about five years, with my sisters and his sisters looking after his emotional needs.

he has a substantial net worth, and they are all making sure that they get their share. he has never married, never even had a girlfriend, has no children, and plans on leaving his money to only those family members that have stood by him.

needless to say, my female cousin is not in the will, nor am i.

and so it goes.
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#435085 - 05/18/13 10:09 PM Re: was it abuse? [Re: victor-victim]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3427
Loc: O Kanada
Originally Posted By: victor-victim
* TRIGGER WARNING *

this issue is becoming a bottomless pit for me.

careful reflection on this topic has led me to my earliest memories of sexual activity. preschool age, i was seduced by my female cousin. she had been abused by our uncle (she later disclosed but that is another story). we called it "playing house", and it was something we did at every available secret opportunity.

this was my first sexual contact with a female, and it has haunted me ever since. i had no idea what she was doing, but it was so intensely pleasurable, i cannot think about it without becoming aroused. so i avoid thinking about it.

she was definitely in control. she initiated. she set the rules and defined the roles. i was the "daddy" and she was the "mommy".

i can't remember why or when it stopped, but i know we did it numerous times. it was not actual sx, but we tried, in our ignorance to perform as "mommy and daddy".

i used to think that her and i shared something special.
my memories of this time in my life were once fond, but now it hurts to write this. once, i tried to confront her about it as an adult, but she said she did not want to discuss it. she blamed my uncle. when she disclosed this incest abuse to the police and they began an investigation, my family rallied around the uncle and attacked the victim. i have vivid memories of my mother screaming "liar" and "wh*re!" at her. i lost whatever trace of respect i had for my mother at that moment. there was not much respect there, but it disappeared. i knew i had to get away from her for my own survival. i have been trying unsuccessfully to live without my mother since i was 12 years old (1973).

i was the only person in the entire family who stood by my cousin, because i knew she was telling the truth. i told her that i believed her and would stand by her, but she has long since left town and cannot be reached.

the rest of the family that did not actively attack her, did not want to get involved.
they refuse to "take sides" or even discuss the situation, and to this day they act like it never happened.
if i bring it up, they tell me they do not wish to dwell on negative subjects and prefer to mindlessly discuss mundane meaningless matters.

i have not seen my cousin in almost 20 years.
the uncle has been in the hospital for about five years, with my sisters and his sisters looking after his emotional needs.

he has a substantial net worth, and they are all making sure that they get their share. he has never married, never even had a girlfriend, has no children, and plans on leaving his money to only those family members that have stood by him.

needless to say, my female cousin is not in the will, nor am i.

and so it goes.


was this abuse?
was i abused?
certainly not by my cousin who was also a child and the same age as me.

this would seem to be some sort of extended form of sexual abuse,
collateral damage brought upon me by my uncle via one of his child victims (there were more than one).
i can hardly blame her, and in fact i do not hold any grudge against her. none whatsoever.


does anyone here have any comments that might help me?
feel the need for feedback.
accepting PM's on this topic. very confused by these memories.
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#435679 - 05/24/13 06:22 PM Re: was it abuse? [Re: victor-victim]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3427
Loc: O Kanada
help?
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#435680 - 05/24/13 07:03 PM Re: was it abuse? [Re: victor-victim]
genedebs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/12
Posts: 287
Loc: MO
Victor-victim.

You ask a series of complicated questions. First, in most states the age of consent is 16. Anyone under the age of 16 and having sex with someone who is 5 years older than they are is being raped. The fact that you were 15 meant you could not give consent and the adult knew that. The issue of drugs and alcohol are other violations and betrayals of your life, but not sex abuse.

One out of very three children who are abused will abuse other children. Is the child who initiates sex with a child when they are both under the age of consent is a very unclear problem. Virtually no where when there is less than 2 years difference in age is this considered abuse, but rather sexual experimentation.

I know men who have faced the same issue you are struggling with. In one case he was 12 and the girls were 16 or so (high school) and he was sure he had been lucky. But, at the age of 50 he looked at it for the first time in the context of abuse. He acknowledged that they had had him perform to meet their desires. That he really didn't know what they were doing. That he did not even know there was oral sex until it was performed on him, and then whem he was pressured to return the oral performance.

I was 16 when I had my first non-abusive sexual encounter. She was 21. She felt that she was committing statutory rape. In fact, I was of the age of consent and it was consensual. Because I performed oral sex on her to initiate the experience, she knew that I was experienced. I was scared to death to tell her about my sexual abuse experiences since I thought of them as homosexual at the time.

Now the fact that you were fucking a married woman obviously has not been presented in your discussion. But, you knew that "society" would have found that a disgrace.

How can you enjoy sex and still be abused? Are you kidding. You think that your body does not respond regardless of where the stimulus comes from. That it was enjoyable, that you felt you were prostituting yourself for drugs and alcohol, that to make it O K with the drugs and alcohol, the sex had to be O K is just the normal kind of rationalizing we all do. How many 15 year olds think of themselves as prostitutes when they are exploring sex with a neighbor. But, whether you verbalized it or not you knew you were being paid to perform the sex acts she desired.

I have no idea if this helps. But it is what I think and what my experience tells me.

We all have different stories and we all are just the same.

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#435690 - 05/24/13 10:17 PM Re: was it abuse? [Re: victor-victim]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3427
Loc: O Kanada
thanks, genedebs, you were able to see and say things about this that i could not. thank you. i am still confused, but i feel a little bit closer to the truth of this situation. i have never discussed this part of my childhood with anyone. not even my therapist. this is more unpleasant to think about, than the serial killer rape that occured in my teens. probably why i have avoided examining it before.
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#435700 - 05/24/13 10:34 PM Re: was it abuse? [Re: victor-victim]
genedebs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/12
Posts: 287
Loc: MO
Victor victim

Sometimes I feel so screwed up because of my experiences and my friends. I am glad it was helpful. There are times, like this one, when I wish I was so experienced and kinda just matter a fact about it all.

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#435732 - 05/25/13 04:30 AM Re: was it abuse? [Re: victor-victim]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2024
Loc: durham, north england
Hi Victor.

To be honest, even though my experience was radically different I very much understand the problem.

My own experiences as a teenager were at the hands of gangs of girls (never less than four), around my own age or a year older betwene 13 and 15. This involved some pretty intensive forms of s/xual humiliation, public stripping, forced mastavation (including having my own sperm slapped in my face), and inforced mastavating of girls.

I never however could use the word abuse about this. I'd experienced physical violence, insults etc,but "s/xual abuse" was something I assumed that girls ccouldn't do to a boy. It wasn't until I was 19, and I literally screamed when my mum tried to walk in on me in the bathroom with my shirt off that she quite casually said "oh you were raped"

This was not a judgement I'd made before, or something I'd asume, since the idea of gang rape by several girls of one boy is so alien to our concepts of gender it is hugely difficult to conceive. Yet, the term did fit my state of mind, the way my body responded, and the damage that has been done (particularly with reference to my genophobia).

For me at least, this judgement was a relatively easy one to make. I was after all forced, insulted, publically humiliated, the experiences were in no way pleasurable, indeed the separation of the ways my body responded to the stimulation and my mind have been some of the hardest things to come to terms with, yet, when i started recovery one phrase during my abuse really troubled me:

"I like you!"

Not the insults, the accusations, but that one phrase, the idea tht within those irriduceably bad experiences at least one of the girls regularly involved had actually "liked" me, ---- even writing this now makes me feel slightly sick.

Yet, what I determined is that their feelings did not matter. I! was the one who was hurt, I! was the one who was humiliated and I! am the one who has been left a mess because of it, and it's me who must pick up the peaces.

Perhaps this is the state your at yourself, stil concerned over the feelings of this woman, despite what she did, as your concerned over the feelings of your cousin, but perhaps it's not their feelings you need to concern yourself with.


Luke.

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#435733 - 05/25/13 04:57 AM Re: was it abuse? [Re: victor-victim]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3427
Loc: O Kanada
I! think you are right, dark empathy.
I! will turn these thoughts around.
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