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#433288 - 05/02/13 11:50 AM There's no point denying anymore, I'm still hear!
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1901
Loc: durham, north england
So, despite all the stuff I've been doing, despite applying for music school, I'm back hear again, "hello darkness my old friend" back with my own feelings of worthlessness, just like I was months ago.

Why is it that whatever I do, however high I jump I always end up back hear again? Back in the cruel sun looking at emptinesss.

What is the point of trying anyway if your just on a road to no where?Of all the things I've done, of all the progress I've made this year, the experiences I've had, it means sod all if I just end up in this place.

Oh yes, it'll pass, it always does, the circle starts again, and again, and again!

Heck, even this meditation on circularity is something I've done before. Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

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#433295 - 05/02/13 01:02 PM Re: There's no point denying anymore, I'm still hear! [Re: dark empathy]
peroperic2009 Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 3599
Loc: South-East Europe
Originally Posted By: dark empathy
So, despite all the stuff I've been doing, despite applying for music school, I'm back hear again, "hello darkness my old friend" back with my own feelings of worthlessness, just like I was months ago.

Hang on Luke - I'm greeting your negative self image who is almost screaming here. Please don't be offended but I would like to talk a little bit with it here wink

Hello! we hear you, we know that nothing is good in you, there is no point in anything and everything is bleak. To be honest we were expecting you and wondering when you'll show up hurting Luke, making him looking fragile, weak and not worthy... You are not the only one negative image present here; we all have it and we can't avoid occasional clash with your brothers. Heavy battles are everywhere present here. Well it is good that you at least have place to scream out and to let your voice being heard even there is nothing constructive in it.
Hm, I need to ask you after all are you still so negative?

Originally Posted By: dark empathy
Why is it that whatever I do, however high I jump I always end up back hear again? Back in the cruel sun looking at emptinesss.

What is the point of trying anyway if your just on a road to no where?Of all the things I've done, of all the progress I've made this year, the experiences I've had, it means sod all if I just end up in this place.

Oh yes, it'll pass, it always does, the circle starts again, and again, and again!

Why?
As for many of us survivors being perfectionist it means looking to have control in every situation as we used to be hurt without it, to manage our lives in tiniest details, to do unimaginable, to get complete control of our feelings and emotions.
And you know what?
When and if we will accept that paradox is everywhere around our nature in this case meaning accepting that we can't feel according to some our wishes than we will get freedom of that trap.
When we would be connected in full to our inner self we will be synchronized and balanced. Even in some negative place we will be satisfied as we would be kindly attached to everything we are including imperfections. And what is love if not acceptance, so I'm raising here question, how come that is so easy for us to waste many words battling with our rationalities when there is simple solution to feel ourselves in full , to accept it and to love it? For others we would feel it immediately, but for us I'm not so sure?
Well I guess the answer is again in some paradox.

Originally Posted By: dark empathy
Heck, even this meditation on circularity is something I've done before. Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

To be honest I've never seen that humans learned something good from history. Otherwise we wouldn't have wars, economic crises because of greed, unemphatic societies, very bad and and insufficient legal systems totally different in it's core but totally same in it's weaknesses and mistakes made to victims and in the end it wouldn't be abuse.

So dear Luke's negative self image, I'm glad that we have had chance to chat, I know that you'll show again and nothing will changed as after all you are just fragile human.
But yo know what?
I'm full with paradoxes too.
So I'd say that I like you a lot and want to be your friend even it could be easily that you don't believe in love and friendships!
well In any case I'm sending my warmest hug to you

(((Luke)))

_________________________
My story

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#433296 - 05/02/13 01:03 PM Re: There's no point denying anymore, I'm still hear! [Re: dark empathy]
ACRoberts Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/07/10
Posts: 242
Loc: New Jersey (recently moved fro...
I totally understand your situation! I like the analogy my therapist provided me. He said the journey is like peeling an onion. Once I finish with one layer, it provides me with another layer to tackle. This has helped me to be more understanding of myself.

Others, including those in my survivor group, can see the progress that I am unaware of.

Hang in there and be kind to yourself!
_________________________
Allan
________________________
WOR Sequoia 2011--it has changed my life!

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#433346 - 05/02/13 11:32 PM Re: There's no point denying anymore, I'm still hear! [Re: dark empathy]
Jude Offline


Registered: 08/09/12
Posts: 1469
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: dark empathy
So, despite all the stuff I've been doing, despite applying for music school, I'm back hear again, "hello darkness my old friend" back with my own feelings of worthlessness, just like I was months ago.

Hey DE,

I've had to accept that I will never be "cured" from the after-effects of CSA in my life. There are some things that just can't be overcome. However, I am learning to live with that, and trying to forge some kind of meaningful life as I do. There are good days and not so good days, but even my worst days now are better than my life was when I was in denial and numbing myself with sex, drugs, and alcohol.

Jude
_________________________
"But now old friends are acting strange,
they shake their heads, they say I've changed.
Something's lost but something's gained in living every day
....it's life's illusions I recall, I really don't know life at all. "
Joni Mitchell

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#433390 - 05/03/13 12:21 PM Re: There's no point denying anymore, I'm still hear! [Re: dark empathy]
csasurvivor1992 Offline


Registered: 03/25/13
Posts: 132
Loc: Texas
Hey Jude, based on your experiences, what do you figure cannot be overcome through therapy? I understand the concept of assimilation, but i'm just curious what will always be with us even on the other side of recovery?
_________________________
May your past be the sound of your feet upon the ground, carry on. ~Fun.

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#433392 - 05/03/13 12:35 PM Re: There's no point denying anymore, I'm still hear! [Re: dark empathy]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3007
Loc: O Kanada
Originally Posted By: dark empathy
So, despite all the stuff I've been doing, despite applying for music school, I'm back hear again, "hello darkness my old friend" back with my own feelings of worthlessness, just like I was months ago.

Why is it that whatever I do, however high I jump I always end up back hear again? Back in the cruel sun looking at emptinesss.

What is the point of trying anyway if your just on a road to no where?Of all the things I've done, of all the progress I've made this year, the experiences I've had, it means sod all if I just end up in this place.

Oh yes, it'll pass, it always does, the circle starts again, and again, and again!

Heck, even this meditation on circularity is something I've done before. Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.


dear fellow traveler.

when you are climbing up a spiral staircase, it often feels like you are going in circles.
if you take your eyes off of your feet and look out every window you find, you will see that you are improving your world view, step by step, level by level, layer by layer.

if you cannot find any windows, look straight ahead and you will notice that the reason it is so difficult is because you are going UP UP UP the stairs. that is why it is so difficult. going up takes effort and purpose.
it is much easier to go down. you don't even have to use your feet... you can just fall or throw yourself. if you are tired, just sit down and take a rest. the stairs aren't going anywhere.

you cannot tell how high you are just by looking at the sky.
it always seems to be the same distance, forever far and out of reach.
although it is a beautiful sight to behold, it sucks as a reference point.

what is at the top of the stairs? i don't know. but i am going to find out.

this i, too, learned the hard way.
hope this helps.
_________________________
Victor|Victim

War
Love
Poetry

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#433399 - 05/03/13 01:18 PM Re: There's no point denying anymore, I'm still hear! [Re: dark empathy]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1901
Loc: durham, north england
Thanks people.

@Pero, addressing my worthlessness is a nice thought, though to be honest sitting here on the other side of things it doesn't literally feel like another person. It's still me. I know it's unreliable, has no cause, has no authority, but it's still me, which is really the problem, my self perception is just wrong. I can enjoy the moment, enjoy what is in front of me, and recently I've been able to go out and find such things, but when all those things pass I'm still left alone looking in that same mirror. people can tell me (because a lot of people are fundamentally decent), I'm so incert complementary adjective, but actually perceiving or believing this is something I cannot do.

It's as Jude unfortunately says.

I've come to the conclusion that I can only change what I do, not what I feel, whehter that's genophobia, worthlessness, isolation or whatever.

I will completely agree that altering my reactions to all of those things helps a lot, being able to recognize that they are not something that should! have an effect on me, but that doesn't stop them happening.

I used to think recovery was sort of like lancing a boil. it hurts, all the bad stuff comes out, and then at most your left with a scar. Now however I'm beginning to realize that recovery is living with an incurable desease like arthritis. you can be sensible about it, you can alter your own activities around it, and there are some days when you just need to push on and get through it, but ultimately it's not going away and there will always be points your absolutely crippled by it.

This is why I'm still on ms after ive years. i visit less often, things are better, but there are still these moments, there's still the genophobia etc, and there are still days when this happens.

That is what irritates me! getting no where, but that's pretty much life, and whether it's a spiral staircase or just a tread mill theree's ultimately no way of knowing until you get somewhere else, if you ever do (something I'm not sure of), and the only answer is the same bloody minded stubborn persistance as always.

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#433402 - 05/03/13 01:34 PM Re: There's no point denying anymore, I'm still hear! [Re: dark empathy]
Casmir213 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 845
Loc: Northeast, USA
I've come to the conclusion that I can only change what I do, not what I feel, whether that's genophobia, worthlessness, isolation or whatever.

Hi Luke,

Well I can see here you are making progress to realize that what you do will not change how you fundamentally feel about yourself. It may change your mood for the better though. But I don't think you are 100% accurate either. If you set out to change how you fundamentally feel about yourself by "doing" things, well then you've barked up the wrong tree (and this you've realized, which I'm calling progress), so to speak, but I do think it is possible to change how we fundamentally feel about ourselves...not by doing however, but by being in healthy relationships with others. It's a paradox, but one that holds true, to say that we first must be accepted by others and accept ourselves as we are if we want to change who we are. I believe this fundamental truth about human beings holds true even when we are talking about how we fundamentally feel about ourselves. I don't know if I've lived this myself, but it is a big part of what keeps me going to therapy.

warmest regards,

Rocco


Edited by Casmir213 (05/03/13 01:35 PM)
_________________________
I see recovery as a lifelong journey rather than a final destination, a journey, though, which can have many successes along the way.

WoR Alumnus - Hope Springs, OH, October 2009

My avatar is the farmhouse at the Hope Spring, OH WoR. It's a nice place.

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#433414 - 05/03/13 07:05 PM Re: There's no point denying anymore, I'm still hear! [Re: dark empathy]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1901
Loc: durham, north england
Hi Rocco.

Well "warm relationships with others" is easy to say when your surrounded by friends, and still easier when you've got a partner or wife or whatever who's always with you, indeed even on a basic, experiencial level I'm coming to the conclusion that a lot of the issues I have with touch, genophobia etc would be eased if I could just have another perspective on things namely that from! an intimate relationship even temporarily, but unfortunately when your alone none of those things will happen, ---- particularly when your alone with others as I so often am.

I have realized I cannot completely cut others out of my life for all isolation can be a very potant drug, however equally actually interacting with others is so much work for only occasional bennifits, particularly since circumstances always dictate others either leave, change their focus or the like and I end up alone again, or still worse, have to start up with a new set of people.

This year I had a lot of things go right in terms of interaction with others, indeed better than things have gone for a long time. however, the production finished and people left. Then, two weeks ago I went to a maskerade ball with those self same people, ---- but things had just been lost and I was the outsider again, The amazing blind man who's got a fantastic voice and a doctorate and is so entertaining to talk to, so talented and who anyone can share their troubles with, ---- but who sits in a corner when people start getting physical or dancing and who everyone forgets when they walk out the door, (how appropriate I went dressed as the Phantom of the Opera).

Yes, I can do it again, and I will do it again, but it doesn't make any difference in the end, I'm still the one people marval at at the time, the one people say "I' don't know why I'm telling you this but ---" , the one people shower with complements, then forget about!

"oh yeah, --- I remember him, he's amazing, no I don't have his phone number"

And the worst thing is, there's bugger all I can do about it, because yes, if I look away from that worthlessness mirror, that is! what I am, talented, empathic, exceptional, and alone!

god I hate the normals, the pretty, stupid, prejudiced, wonderful normals!

And to the above list we might as well add self pittying, needy, and ridiculously arrogant as well, indeed I'd better submit this before I go and hit escape.

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#433532 - 05/04/13 04:41 PM Re: There's no point denying anymore, I'm still hear! [Re: dark empathy]
Casmir213 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 845
Loc: Northeast, USA
Hi again Luke,

Yes, of course, you are more likely to have a healthy healing relationship if you have someone there with you, but it by no means guarantees it. Just ask all those who are married but yet still feel alone. To perceive the outward appearance of a relationship or marriage and then think that they are healthy is just our perception, it's not the truth.


As Pero said earlier, and I hope that someday you can really get this, and that it really sinks in, you are not alone in how you feel. I'm not just saying this in a general sense either. Although our circumstances and countries differ, we are not that much different in how we experience life. And believe me, I know enough about you, from what you've told us over the years, to say this with confidence. And I believe it's important for you to believe and to realize that someone, and ocean away, understands how you feel and how you experience life....because our shared humaness, needs, loneliness, and beliefs about ourselves makes it easy for me to understand you. There is no denying this for me. Your physical disability does not in any way prevent me from understanding or relating to you. In fact, your physical disability, along with our shared CSA experience, makes it easier for me to relate to you.

Please know that I haven't forgotten you. And honestly, I don't think I'll ever forget you. Believe this...because it's true. Yes, this is a computer screen with words on it, but we are living humans with our own, and a lot of times similar, feelings and experiences putting the words on the screen.

It seems to me those around you have perhaps used and neglected you, as you are indeed someone with the same needs that everyone else has, and should be treated the same. People and societies can be cruel and I'm very sorry this has been your experience. Please realize too, and this may be difficult to hear, that with your resolution you may be sending off signals that what all people (not just normals) need isn't for you. In this way, you are actively setting yourself apart from others.

As I mentioned earlier, I don't think feelings and beliefs about our worthlessness are set in stone. I do, however, think that for you, me, and others here, the fundamental belief of our total lack of value has prevented us from pursuing intimate relationships and perhaps our own sexuality in healthy ways. To me, it's the beliefs of our own worthlessness that is at the heart of our difficulties. You've helped me realize this with your post. Who, with no sense of worth, can approach another in any vulnerable way? I doubt anyone would attempt to do such a thing. And rightly so.

It is the belief of our worthlessness that needs to be addressed and corrected if we are to fulfill the basic human needs that we all have...you, me, and others here. I don't know of any other way to address this except to go where we fear to go, and to, little by little, come to believe that we have value in and of ourselves. I personally think you have made progress in this area. Otherwise I don't think you could be as blatantly honest about yourself as you have been here.

Thank you, Luke, for being here and for helping me along in my own recovery from worthlessness.

Rocco
_________________________
I see recovery as a lifelong journey rather than a final destination, a journey, though, which can have many successes along the way.

WoR Alumnus - Hope Springs, OH, October 2009

My avatar is the farmhouse at the Hope Spring, OH WoR. It's a nice place.

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