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#432615 - 04/27/13 04:39 AM was it abuse?
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3329
Loc: O Kanada
when i was about 15 years old, my friend's mother got me alone, gave me alcohol and pills, and started a sexual affair with me that lasted for a couple months.
i saw it coming, and i let it happen.
in fact, i welcomed it, but did not encourage it.
i allowed her take control of the situation.

she was an alcoholic and an addict, who would secretly supply me with drugs and sex whenever the opportunity presented itself.

i was never attracted to her. truthfully, i did not really enjoy the act, although i was able to function. what kept me coming back to her was the constant flattery. she fed my starving ego.

i had already been sexually active since i was about six years old, so i saw nothing wrong with having sex with my friend's 36 year old mother. in fact, i thought society was wrong, with all the puritanical rules and double standards.
i was already 100% amoral by this time.

to avoid trouble with my friend, i never told anyone about this. i was worried he would be mad about me sleeping with his mom. i did not want to be embarassed, ridiculed, rejected, attacked, or in any way chastised by my peers.

this affair went on until my own mother started getting suspicious and began to ask me questions about why this woman was calling me at odd hours and so often.

then we almost got caught in the act by her violent husband. fortunately, because of my young age, he had trouble believing what was right in front of his eyes, and instead chose to believe her lies.

i never allowed myself to be alone with her again, although she propositioned me several times.

for years, i cherished these private memories with pride.
but i never spoke of them, because i was ashamed.
this is a paradox and a contradiction.
how can both be true?

now, rationally, i consider what she did to me as sexual exploitation of a vulnerable minor. especially supplying the booze and dope, which is outright illegal in this country.

perhaps she did not know any better, considering her constant state of intoxication and inebriation.
she later died of a heroin overdose.
if this had been some isolated incident, i might be aware of any emotional problems it caused me, but i am not.

however, in context, my life was so terrible at that time, it still feels like a fond memory. but i know it was WRONG.

all i have to do is imagine her as an adult man (a father of a friend) and me as a messed up 15 year old girl.
suddenly it does not seem so cool.
why is that? why is gender relevant to me in this case?

up until i discovered this particular forum (Survivors of Female Abuse), i had not really given this much thought or consideration.

any feedback?
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#432651 - 04/27/13 04:53 PM Re: was it abuse? [Re: victor-victim]
TJ jeff Offline

Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 3365
Loc: Northern Wisconsin
Yes - it most certainly is abuse

I can only guess that the reason it feels worse to you if the gender roles where reversed is because of "historical society" saying that young guys are "lucky" to have sex with an older female at such a young age

times are changing though - society is starting to wake up to the damage that is being done
_________________________
Who will cry for the little boy? - I will... - Antwone Fisher

Abuse happens in silence/isolation - Recovery happens only when that silence/isolation is broken...

TJ's History

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#432652 - 04/27/13 05:03 PM Re: was it abuse? [Re: victor-victim]
BraveFalcon Offline
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Registered: 02/25/13
Posts: 1096
Loc: The ATL
Originally Posted By: victor-victim

all i have to do is imagine her as an adult man (a father of a friend) and me as a messed up 15 year old girl.
suddenly it does not seem so cool.


No, it wouldn't have been cool. It would have been totally fucked up and the things she did to/with you were definitely abuse in my eyes. Sure, you may have "consented", but a 36 year old person, regardless of their gender, should never put a 15 year old kid the position of having to consent or not, regardless of their gender. Also, what kind of a 36 year old adult gives a 15 year old drugs and alcohol? That's fucked! I wouldn't have a problem with an adult being cool and allowing a kid that age to have A beer, one maybe, but that's different. Her sick and selfish behavior endangered you and came at the expense of your heath and well being.

Remember that most young teens who wind up in these adult-teen relationships, don't normally see the relationship as abusive while it's going on. They often feel like the relationship makes them grown up and ahead of their friends. Adults who prey on kids that age know this, and take advantage of it. Sure, those relationships may not be abuse in the same way that they would be if the kid involved was 10, but they're still abuse and there really is no way around that. Take care. Peace,

Ken

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#432671 - 04/27/13 10:03 PM Re: was it abuse? [Re: victor-victim]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3329
Loc: O Kanada
i knew it wasn't ok, but i don't seem to register any damage.
as i said, i had already been victimized prior to this, molested and raped, so what happened with my friend's mother did not feel bad compared to previous sexual experiences.

those things TJjeff and BraveFalcon say about me
"young guys are "lucky" to have sex with an older female at such a young age" and "young teens who wind up in these adult-teen relationships, don't normally see the relationship as abusive while it's going on. They often feel like the relationship makes them grown up and ahead of their friends." pretty much sums up my attitude the way i remember it. that was 35 years ago.

i know that if some adult woman was sexually propositioning my teenage son (he is 13), with or without alcohol or drugs, i would NOT allow it to happen. i would consider it a criminal act and put a stop to it immediately.

i am now confused about my own double standard.
how can two mutually exclusive and opposite points of view exist simultaneously in the same mind?

i wish i had never lifted the lid on this.
because it has created a conflict in me.
or maybe it has only revealed what was already there.

this must be the damage then.
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#432769 - 04/28/13 05:50 PM Re: was it abuse? [Re: victor-victim]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1963
Loc: durham, north england
Originally Posted By: victor-victim
i knew it wasn't ok, but i don't seem to register any damage.
as i said, i had already been victimized prior to this, molested and raped, so what happened with my friend's mother did not feel bad compared to previous sexual experiences.
i wish i had never lifted the lid on this.

Again, considder that in the light of a female victim of sa who had violent experiences then was coerced by a 36 yo man at fifteen. Same rule applies.

The double standard isn't just yours, it is society's as well. equally however one thing I do wonder is if it's not just your male genrder here.

Myself, my own abuse (by teenaged girls), I considdered as okay not just because the people involved were girls my own age, but also because it was "me", and something I deserved.

My experiences were not coerced at all and were uncompromising bad due to humiliation, insults and violence, but one thing I do realize is that they have left me with a less than reliable evaluation of myself and anything I do.

The fact that you agree that were this your son, you'd think of it as abuse, yet do not have the same judgement for yourself strikes me as important and I do wonder if that's something you could considder.

I might be utterly wrong here, but it was something that occurred to me while reading this topic.

while society's double standard and intrinsic sexism towards men isn't something that it's particularly easy to change individually, there are things you can do to change your thinking regarding yourself, or at least to come to a better understanding about it.

Hope you find something that works.

Luke.
because it has created a conflict in me.
or maybe it has only revealed what was already there.

this must be the damage then.




Edited by dark empathy (04/28/13 05:53 PM)

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#432850 - 04/29/13 11:42 AM Re: was it abuse? [Re: victor-victim]
TJ jeff Offline

Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 3365
Loc: Northern Wisconsin
Victor

I was in no way trying to say that you where "lucky" in any way to have those things happen to you - I was only trying to say that years ago when we where younger "society" did not understand the hurt that was being done...
_________________________
Who will cry for the little boy? - I will... - Antwone Fisher

Abuse happens in silence/isolation - Recovery happens only when that silence/isolation is broken...

TJ's History

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#432932 - 04/29/13 09:31 PM Re: was it abuse? [Re: TJ jeff]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3329
Loc: O Kanada
Originally Posted By: TJ jeff
Victor

I was in no way trying to say that you where "lucky" in any way to have those things happen to you - I was only trying to say that years ago when we where younger "society" did not understand the hurt that was being done...


did not mean to imply that you called me lucky.
i totally understand what you are saying, and i agree with you.
the double standard of "society" is what clouds this issue.
this memory is no longer a happy one.
now, when i reflect on it, which i am trying not to do anymore, i feel disgusted and ashamed.
yuck! gross!
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#432964 - 04/29/13 11:40 PM Re: was it abuse? [Re: victor-victim]
BraveFalcon Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/25/13
Posts: 1096
Loc: The ATL
Originally Posted By: victor-victim

now, when i reflect on it, which i am trying not to do anymore, i feel disgusted and ashamed.


Shame is not something you should feel about what happened. I know it's hard not to, and this is something I wish I could take my own advise on, but try remembering that the shame is/was 100% hers to bear. She took advantage of you. She should not have done any of that. She was wrong for it, not you. Let the shame be hers, even though she's not still around to bear it. Take care. Peace,

Ken

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#433018 - 04/30/13 11:04 AM Re: was it abuse? [Re: victor-victim]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3329
Loc: O Kanada
when i say ashamed... i mean...
i don't want friends or family to know about it.
maybe i mean embarassed blush

now that i have teens of my own at home... i can see just how immature i must have been, because it seems that no matter how hard you teach them... they still have poor judgement and make many bad decisions.

i forgive them daily.

this topic (Survivors of Female Abuse) has given me a lot on insight into my own personal experience with my friend's mother. it has triggered a whole flood of feelings. i did not realize how compartmentally retarded i was about the whole thing.
the truth is that which insists on existence regardless of what you believe.

thanks for all your words of encouragement
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#433403 - 05/03/13 01:38 PM Re: was it abuse? [Re: victor-victim]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1963
Loc: durham, north england
Hi Victor, I'm glad some of this helps.

One thing I discovered myself, is that remembering and being aware of something is not half the same as actually perceiving that something. Back when I first discovered ms, I thought I was fine, since I! knew what had happened to me at secondary school. I assumed "recovery" was all about those people who didn't remember things, ---- which wasn't me, since I did! remember, so was okay right?

It took the emotional iquivolent of being hit by a two tonne articulated lorry to convince me I wasn't in late 2007, and once I started looking into this I realized just how many things were a result of that experience, fear of crowds, genophobia, total inability to start any sort of relationship whatsoever.

Just because your aware of something doesn't mean your aware of all it's ramifications, and to be honest while I'm sorry your feeling so much disgust (believe me, I have memories that make me feel sick), at least to me that is a more healthy response, ---- since heck, what happened to you was! disgusting!

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