If this conversation were occurring in India, the question would be about Hinduism.

If this conversation were occurring in Tibet, the question would be about Buddha.

Culture seems to reign supreme over what people 'choose' to believe. Those that decide to believe differently than what is generally accepted in their culture are usually judged, pretty harshly. In the not too distant past, this resulted in being accused of being a witch, and burned at the stake.

The fundamental truth of most of the world religions, I believe, is to practice letting go of fear and anger, embrace forgiveness, learn to let go of judgments, and to love each other unconditionally.

In Christian terms "Love one another as you love yourself". This is the second greatest commandment. (Matthew 22:37-39.)

My 3 cents.

May I just point out that the New Testament does NOT call upon His followers, His children to be 'Bible Police.' Nowhere does does it tell us to "persecute, belittle, insult, shun, reject, hurt, kill, beat and marginalize the man that sleeps with men."

Hit ANY pretend Christian with THAT reality, all you get in response is a dance of wrong-hearted "justification."

Hand them a New Testament and say FIND IT!! FIND the section that tells you to make MY salvation part of YOUR business. Show me where in this New Testament hat it tells you to treat me this way, or to even judge me? I usually like to wave a $100.00 bill into the scene daring them to find it...but that's me. Find where it tells you to do this to me, to them, to anyone.

They had also better be able to justify why they choose Gays to massacre. Why not thieves? Why not adulterers? Why not divorce lawyers?

Don't take it from them in a crowd. Don't take it from them in a train. Do not take it from them in a plane, a church, a church coffee group or a relative that claims to hold something over you...cuz they have NOTHING over you! They will never ever be able to show you biblical justification for their horrid ways.

Tell them "you are not God's cop and you have no right playing "enforcer!.

I think this is all I can comment on and maintain a civil nature - nerves and emotions are raw from therapy right now - but I really felt a need to address this one statement.

While it is correct that Jesus himself never said anything about homosexuality, the New Testament does - most notably by Paul. And, as a firm believer that the Word of God was God breathed {inspiried if you prefer}, and written down by men - granted men of emotion - there is information beyond just the Old Testament to be found. And that's as deep as I think I should go.

...... and just for the record, I am a gay male, learning to be proud of who I am - and also firmly convinced I was "hand molded" by God for His purposes .....

Good topic ... though I'm not sure this is the right forum......

Here again I want to insist this stay here. I have a huge point to bring to the table, and as this thread has evolved, I think I have an even greater purpose for this thread.

Maybe I should just have said religion and not called out Christians, it's just that that particular morning I was told by someone I love, someone who appears good in all outwardly forms, told me "If I don't accept Jesus, I will go to hell" And she didn't allow herself to think about it, she accepted the things she learned as LAW. She didn't even WANT to tell me that, she felt obligated like she had to or else. I think it was fear.

But here's what I bring to this thread. As I've said, religion has affected almost all survivors in one way or another, it deserves to be in the leading forum on this site. I think we need to learn how to discuss religion without prosecution, prejudice, accusations, or "flaming". How can we, not only as a group of survivors, but as a world society learn to freely and OPENLY discuss our beliefs, without harming others? Moving it to the spirituality forum would almost certainly give it an unfair advantage against non-believers and most likely lead to much more preaching, which is not what I intended this thread to be about. I intended this thread for knowledge, insight, validating feelings (in a non offensive way), and healing. Maybe I'm nieve, but I believe in people, I believe in a working world, I believe in peace, and if all religious topics do is bring up flame wars, how can it have a place in a peaceful world let alone a peaceful forum? I'm working for change.

Might I suggest the following?

Ask questions, if they're question that will have backlash, rewrite them as rhetorical questions, just questions to ponder.

Submit ideas, not laws. If it has scientific or factual backup, allow yourself to post it, and allow yourself to consider it. Many religions were written thousands of years ago, by men. That's not to say they're wrong, but how could they have written certain things correctly whilst missing facts? Symbolism is used in many cases.

No pointing fingers, no saying, "You're wrong" without an absolute necessary reason, if you get angry leave the topic and come back, if you can't handle this subject in this point in time, avoid it.

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My questions have been answered, In my interpretation of Christianity and Catholicism, God will not condemn me, but forgive me. This is my idea, it's neither right or wrong, it is just my interpretation. So I now feel at peace with the books that used to cause me great trouble, because I realized that it is in fact the people who use these books who are the root of my problems, not the books themselves, I understand that now.

If this thread has no more use now, so be it. I made my point, I proposed an idea, and it's out there to think about for each any every one who reads it. To reiterate, my goal is peace between religions, because without peace between religions, there is no peace to be had.

The irony hurts to contemplate.

Amen.

there will be no peace - but that's another story.

I do {strongly} believe this thread belongs in Spirituality and Survivors' forum.

M

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I believe peace will exist, I'm sure it exists somewhere in the universe in some civilization. When you stop believing in peace, you might as well give up hope, we might as well die right now and forget about what it is to be alive. Growth, and I think where we are growing towards is peace, something better. Now I know some of you might not believe in evolution, but that is a premise of it.

I guess if you believe in heaven, you don't have to worry about this, because death is peace. That's just a luxury some of you guys have. But I don't have that luxury, and for those of us who don't, we want world peace for us and our children here on earth.

That's just my idea of peace, something to ponder. Neither right or wrong, just a theory.

Again, moving it to the spirituality forum strips this thread of all non-spiritual views pertaining to the world and an outside view of religion looking in. And also restricts the spiritualists from looking outside to try and understand another point of view. This is an analysis from all points of view not just the view of spirituality. I suppose those who want this in another forum simply just don't want to look outside of their box or don't want another point of view.

I don't mean that to offend, but why else would you want it there? And if that's the case, maybe this is in fact not the thread for you to participate in. Because this is a free thinking open thread pertaining to religion, spirituality, agnosticism and atheism (and everything else) to understand all points of views, and how they affect each other. I know it can be scary or even offending to be asked to question your faith, but in and of itself it's not offensive. An honest question can't really be offensive in nature, it's up to the recipient to attach a perceived ulterior motive to it and to see it as offensive.

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Jesus himself never said a thing about homosexuality. So anything in the new testament otherwise is hearsay. I don't really care if you or him or her thinks it's a sin, because there is no clear interpretation of that. It's all how you decide you understand it from the words that have been passed down for thousands of years and translated hundreds of times. There's no clarity. It's mailable, ever changing, which breeds humans prejudice into prosecution. So even considering Christianity is true, there's no clear cut word from the son of God himself. There's no way to know. So why concern yourselves with it?

Homosexuality would actually seem to come down to a human issue. How humans perceive it. Sin or not, there's no reason to hold it above any other sin, sin is sin and according to what I've learned from a Christians point of view, we're all sinners. Homosexuality, the more I learn about it in religion, the more I come to believe it's just people who prosecute it.

And again, there's scientific facts that support homosexuality is not a choice. So that begs you to ponder your law. Why would a, to be very blunt, "a birth defect" be a sin? Also to clarify something I said before, about homosexuality in animals, my point was not that it was right, but that it is natural, not unnatural.

Now I don't care anymore about this, I really don't care to discuss it, because now I've come to believe it's the individual person's hate and conviction against homosexuality that fuels their religious tyraids, and not their actual books or religions.

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To my second question I posed, I came to another thing to speak about.

"If I don't believe in Jesus Christ as the savior, I will go to hell"

Just ponder this,

Belief and Knowing go hand in hand. You can know something to be true but not believe it, and you can in believe something you know is not true. But in order to truly Know, you must believe as well, so my interpretation of sin is that God says, one who does not know they are sinning is not sinning, In order for it to be a sin, they must know it is a sin and do it willingly.

What I'm telling you is that you can believe without knowing and it is truth to you. However, you can know but not believe, and it is not the truth for you. I do not believe in Jesus Christ, and I do not believe quite a many "sins" are actually sins. But I do, in the literal sense, know of Jesus and sins, I just cannot believe it to be true. I do have morals, and I stand by my morals not because God told me so, but because in my heart of hearts I want goodness, and I want to put out goodness in the world.

Some people can believe in something without any knowledge, and that is faith, a huge part of religion. It is not in my being, my personality, to have faith in things I do not know. I need facts, I need probability, I need something to ratify what is being told to me. It's not because I choose it, but it is to protect myself from propaganda and lies. You may argue this is an excuse to continue my sins, but in my own heart, I BELIEVE, that it is not my choice, it is part of who I am. I BELIEVE I am incapable of believing in Jesus Christ, given the facts of the world and the history I know of him (even outside of the bible).

In my head, I am open however. I talk to God, because I do have a certain level of faith that grew into me as a kid, and from my belief system based on my own philosophies. One thing I talk to God about is Jesus, I ask him, God, if I am wrong, please forgive my inability to have faith, please forgive me for being wrong. I ask him for that forgiveness, because in my heart of hearts like I said I believe in goodness, and if I can put a tangible thing or picture of what goodness is, I would call it God.

Now that you've pondered that, you can see how it's all part of interpretation, it's not absolute. We don't have a religion absolute enough to know for sure how to handle anything with any certainty. So why preoccupy yourselves with all of this preaching and concern for people who do not believe what you believe? Nobody's individual faith is the same as another's, not even two Christians.

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These questions are answered for me, I feel at peace with myself and my knowledge. If anyone else feels this is inadequate for them, bring it up for yourself, but not for me. I have come to my conclusion, yet if you must tell me something new, I will listen for the sake of learning and growing.