The topic of Jesus.

I am not subscribed to any religion. I am a free thinker, a skeptic, agnostic. My beliefs are based on quantum physics, philosophy, and self revelation; among other outward sources of wisdom and intellect. I do believe in a greater good, and the abyss that pulls the good toward negativity and bad. Much like the old Cherokee Indian tale of the two wolves. However, this is not really so much about me in particular, although this subject deeply affects me as an individual. It is the religion of Christianity, or more importantly, the people of whom subscribe to it's beliefs. I have a few questions, questions of deep importance within today's society. Questions that beg to be asked, questions that are of impertinence to be pondered. Questions that will force Christians, be that you or someone you know, to face the unknown, and their own fear of God himself. Because that is what it is, Fear. Fear of damnation. Which is in and of it's self an ironic and contradictory idea, considering God is all loving and all forgiving. I want only to ask these questions, and supply some facts, not to tell Christians they're wrong, but only to supply them with some knowledge and self-reflection over what is truly right, and what is merely an idea, an opinion, or a misinterpretation of messages or scriptures you've been taught.

Homosexuality.

Firstly, what is said about this, is confined only to that of the old testament. Jesus himself never said anything relating to homosexuality.

Secondly, in science, many discoveries have been made that would point to homosexuality being a born quality of men and women (and has been observed in nearly 1,500 species besides just humans). Also, in a recent scientific discovery, it appears that epigenetics actually underlies homosexuality.

Universal Morality and Ethics.

Firstly, why is it, that an all fogiving and all loving God would condemn an otherwise wholly good and just soul to hell, simply for not, key word, "Believing" in Jesus Christ as the savior? Because, without belief, how can one possibly "Accept" this supposed fact? And also, why would he do the same, for an unknowing soul, who's never learned or heard of Jesus, send them to hell as well?

Secondly, and more importantly, why would you assume to know how God would judge any of us? The God who is most incomprehensibly and ever more Omniscient and all knowing than that of any one of us could ever possibly be, ever. Especially when Jesus taught us to love one another without judgement.

Thirdly, I propose this idea to Christians, is it possible that God would forgive a good and just soul, who is open to that forgiveness & deserving of that forgiveness, for being inable to believe that Jesus was in fact the savior, the Messiah? Therefore being in-able to accept him as so.

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Why did I bring this up?

I have known Christians all my life, many Christians I have learned to love. However they pass their judgement onto me because I do not believe Jesus Christ was the savior as well as the fact that I am gay. Many of them say they still love me, yet tell me I need saving. That I will burn in hell because of who I am, when I know in my heart of hearts I am a good person. I'm sure many of you can understand this feeling of being told you will burn in hell from someone you love.

However, speaking for myself, it causes a deep and pungent hurt inside of my heart like no other. It bothers me to in irrefutable amount to hear this from someone I so dearly love and care for. And it also hurts to know there are people around the world who have already condemned me, without even knowing me. Another way to word that is, that society has made it clear, I am not worthy of goodness, I am destined for hell. The effect this has had on me growing up, and on other kids growing up is indescribably horrendous. It's horrendous because of the scale such a perceived cut and clear simplicity can hurt such a wide scale of children who will grow up realizing in themselves they have for whatever reason not met the requirements to be loved, or to deserve good, from the most parental and impertinent figure in a child's world, God. Millions of children will grow into adulthood feeling forsaken because of the cut and dry requirements of religion. And there are limitless ways one can come to this point without any will of it ever happening.

This leads me to describe why one would come to such a point. But for the sake of simplicity, and speaking on my behalf only, I will use the road my life has taken me. I was raised Catholic, much similar to Christianity, and I was abused and raped for so long, it's nearly impossible for me to believe in such a God. And to add to that fact, I am gay, and at least by the cold hard facts of Catholicism (which for some reason are adopted by Christians as well) God doesn't love me for who I was born as. I had no choice in any of this, but from what I've learned I do not deserve to go to heaven. How can I believe in that religion which tells me I shall burn in hell when I strive to have nothing but good in my heart? I am after all only human, as we all are. But the one thing I did choose is to live a life devoid of hate, and a life full of love, with the intent to help as many people as I can and to leave this world a better place than I entered it.

I would love to have this conversation , but unfortunately this is in the wrong section and I dare not even try to touch this in this section . If and when this moves to the correct forum where I could actually elaborate without infuriating the masses who come to this section specifically to avoid people like me , than I would love to try
understand this God is drawing you to himself and i love it

Actually I specifically posed this here, because religion has touched various survivors in one way or another, be it positive or negative. At the very least Catholicism/Christianity played a part in my CSA, therefore I think that makes it appropriate to be discussed it in this forum.

I fully intend to have an open discussion without accusations and without any dismissal of any one persons believes or a group of people's beliefs as a whole. I want to have an enlightening discussion on this topic. Something we can all learn from, in one way, or in another.

Deleated my post. I got a bit of a gut check on this.. I rely need this support structure and dont want to mess it up. I think my belief in Jesus is troubling for many who beleave in God and feel he has rejected or abandon them. I don't want to hurt any one. I would be glad to PM on this one. Sorry to any one if needed. We have a common bond and reason for being here.
I'm not shure if this is going to be a change agent for good or just drive pain deeper. That would be very sad if that happens. Like any of us needs more pain.

First I don't really think this belongs here but that's just my opinion.


Fuck them.

That's another of my opinions.

I believe those that you are talking about have one view of Christianity that is based on fear (as you state) and not love. But they may not see it that way.

This thread is ripe for flaming. Please, please be kind to one another.

Hi CloudyFalls

I am a Jew and probably have A perspective on Christianity that is prejudiced. Particularly Catholicism, which until 1963 thought we were Christ Killers and damned to hell for this untrue past sin.

However, the basis of anti-homosexuality in the new testiment is in Corinthians, ( II I think). There is an error in the translation. What is presented as homosexual, is infact pederast. And I believe and I believe a man who has sex with a boy, particularly anal penatration is a perpetrator, and should be shunned.

However, as you know there is no basis to confusing child rapers with homosexuals.

As G K Chesterton said: I have nothing against Christianity, it's just that no one has tried it yet.

Every institution has hippocrits, broken people, self righteous misinformed and opinionated people. Do you really expect that a church or any house of worship will avoid all of them?

Yes, God was not there to protect me from abuse, physical, sexual, or being turned into a narcisitic supply. But, perhaps you have to reconsider you understanding of God. My God does not prevent free will, nor does he decide who will get cancer, and which babies will have such tortured deforities that life is impossible.

Perhaps your God is involved in such active direction of torture. In which case, yes, I would condemn such a God. I see no evidence of the malevalence of such a power whether God or Devil.

May He Bless you and keep you, may His countenance shine upon you and grant you peace.

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Sorry old chap but it is mentioned in 1:Cor 6 V 9 and again in 1 Tim 1 v 10. But it is a debate that will rage forever.
What most people forget is Grace, and more so these "Christians" that hold up dumb signs like "turn or burn" or "God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve" and the likes, well lets just say that they to shall face judgement. Being a Christian does not mean that you can spread your hatred and silly opinions around because you think you are right. In fact it is the opposite, you need to know Gods word well and then tell people in Love.

What is most important here is Jesus loves you, regardless of what you have done. He has esteemed Fornicators, murders, adultery, and people that have done a lot worse than what we have done, so why should he not forgive and love us. I Mean one of his favorite children was David, and believe me David was not sin free, Same for Solomon, same for Abraham, and the list continues.

I know this is controversial, but hey the Bible is the bible, and what most people forget is that it is the only word of God, this has been proven Scientifically mathematically and otherwise. What some idiotic pastor says from a pulpit is not Gods word.
I cannot judge you, nor can your friends. the only one that can convince you is yourself.

Its odd how two people that have traveled a similar journey have ended up on polar opposites. I, having suffered the same as you have turned to God, even after blaming him for so long, and you have chosen a different path.

My 2 cents worth, and by no means the ultimate and final word on the subject. If you want that then you should take the time to discover what Gods word says on the matter, not any of the "religious people" that claim to know all.

As Jude said earlier. BE KIND TO ONE ANOTHER OR BE GENTLE WITH ONE ANOTHER.

Martin

If this conversation were occurring in India, the question would be about Hinduism.

If this conversation were occurring in Tibet, the question would be about Buddha.

Culture seems to reign supreme over what people 'choose' to believe. Those that decide to believe differently than what is generally accepted in their culture are usually judged, pretty harshly. In the not too distant past, this resulted in being accused of being a witch, and burned at the stake.

The fundamental truth of most of the world religions, I believe, is to practice letting go of fear and anger, embrace forgiveness, learn to let go of judgments, and to love each other unconditionally.

In Christian terms "Love one another as you love yourself". This is the second greatest commandment. (Matthew 22:37-39.)

My 3 cents.

May I just point out that the New Testament does NOT call upon His followers, His children to be 'Bible Police.' Nowhere does does it tell us to "persecute, belittle, insult, shun, reject, hurt, kill, beat and marginalize the man that sleeps with men."

Hit ANY pretend Christian with THAT reality, all you get in response is a dance of wrong-hearted "justification."

Hand them a New Testament and say FIND IT!! FIND the section that tells you to make MY salvation part of YOUR business. Show me where in this New Testament hat it tells you to treat me this way, or to even judge me? I usually like to wave a $100.00 bill into the scene daring them to find it...but that's me. Find where it tells you to do this to me, to them, to anyone.

They had also better be able to justify why they choose Gays to massacre. Why not thieves? Why not adulterers? Why not divorce lawyers?

Don't take it from them in a crowd. Don't take it from them in a train. Do not take it from them in a plane, a church, a church coffee group or a relative that claims to hold something over you...cuz they have NOTHING over you! They will never ever be able to show you biblical justification for their horrid ways.

Tell them "you are not God's cop and you have no right playing "enforcer!.

I think this is all I can comment on and maintain a civil nature - nerves and emotions are raw from therapy right now - but I really felt a need to address this one statement.

While it is correct that Jesus himself never said anything about homosexuality, the New Testament does - most notably by Paul. And, as a firm believer that the Word of God was God breathed {inspiried if you prefer}, and written down by men - granted men of emotion - there is information beyond just the Old Testament to be found. And that's as deep as I think I should go.

...... and just for the record, I am a gay male, learning to be proud of who I am - and also firmly convinced I was "hand molded" by God for His purposes .....

Good topic ... though I'm not sure this is the right forum......

Here again I want to insist this stay here. I have a huge point to bring to the table, and as this thread has evolved, I think I have an even greater purpose for this thread.

Maybe I should just have said religion and not called out Christians, it's just that that particular morning I was told by someone I love, someone who appears good in all outwardly forms, told me "If I don't accept Jesus, I will go to hell" And she didn't allow herself to think about it, she accepted the things she learned as LAW. She didn't even WANT to tell me that, she felt obligated like she had to or else. I think it was fear.

But here's what I bring to this thread. As I've said, religion has affected almost all survivors in one way or another, it deserves to be in the leading forum on this site. I think we need to learn how to discuss religion without prosecution, prejudice, accusations, or "flaming". How can we, not only as a group of survivors, but as a world society learn to freely and OPENLY discuss our beliefs, without harming others? Moving it to the spirituality forum would almost certainly give it an unfair advantage against non-believers and most likely lead to much more preaching, which is not what I intended this thread to be about. I intended this thread for knowledge, insight, validating feelings (in a non offensive way), and healing. Maybe I'm nieve, but I believe in people, I believe in a working world, I believe in peace, and if all religious topics do is bring up flame wars, how can it have a place in a peaceful world let alone a peaceful forum? I'm working for change.

Might I suggest the following?

Ask questions, if they're question that will have backlash, rewrite them as rhetorical questions, just questions to ponder.

Submit ideas, not laws. If it has scientific or factual backup, allow yourself to post it, and allow yourself to consider it. Many religions were written thousands of years ago, by men. That's not to say they're wrong, but how could they have written certain things correctly whilst missing facts? Symbolism is used in many cases.

No pointing fingers, no saying, "You're wrong" without an absolute necessary reason, if you get angry leave the topic and come back, if you can't handle this subject in this point in time, avoid it.

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My questions have been answered, In my interpretation of Christianity and Catholicism, God will not condemn me, but forgive me. This is my idea, it's neither right or wrong, it is just my interpretation. So I now feel at peace with the books that used to cause me great trouble, because I realized that it is in fact the people who use these books who are the root of my problems, not the books themselves, I understand that now.

If this thread has no more use now, so be it. I made my point, I proposed an idea, and it's out there to think about for each any every one who reads it. To reiterate, my goal is peace between religions, because without peace between religions, there is no peace to be had.

The irony hurts to contemplate.

Amen.

there will be no peace - but that's another story.

I do {strongly} believe this thread belongs in Spirituality and Survivors' forum.

M

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I believe peace will exist, I'm sure it exists somewhere in the universe in some civilization. When you stop believing in peace, you might as well give up hope, we might as well die right now and forget about what it is to be alive. Growth, and I think where we are growing towards is peace, something better. Now I know some of you might not believe in evolution, but that is a premise of it.

I guess if you believe in heaven, you don't have to worry about this, because death is peace. That's just a luxury some of you guys have. But I don't have that luxury, and for those of us who don't, we want world peace for us and our children here on earth.

That's just my idea of peace, something to ponder. Neither right or wrong, just a theory.

Again, moving it to the spirituality forum strips this thread of all non-spiritual views pertaining to the world and an outside view of religion looking in. And also restricts the spiritualists from looking outside to try and understand another point of view. This is an analysis from all points of view not just the view of spirituality. I suppose those who want this in another forum simply just don't want to look outside of their box or don't want another point of view.

I don't mean that to offend, but why else would you want it there? And if that's the case, maybe this is in fact not the thread for you to participate in. Because this is a free thinking open thread pertaining to religion, spirituality, agnosticism and atheism (and everything else) to understand all points of views, and how they affect each other. I know it can be scary or even offending to be asked to question your faith, but in and of itself it's not offensive. An honest question can't really be offensive in nature, it's up to the recipient to attach a perceived ulterior motive to it and to see it as offensive.

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Jesus himself never said a thing about homosexuality. So anything in the new testament otherwise is hearsay. I don't really care if you or him or her thinks it's a sin, because there is no clear interpretation of that. It's all how you decide you understand it from the words that have been passed down for thousands of years and translated hundreds of times. There's no clarity. It's mailable, ever changing, which breeds humans prejudice into prosecution. So even considering Christianity is true, there's no clear cut word from the son of God himself. There's no way to know. So why concern yourselves with it?

Homosexuality would actually seem to come down to a human issue. How humans perceive it. Sin or not, there's no reason to hold it above any other sin, sin is sin and according to what I've learned from a Christians point of view, we're all sinners. Homosexuality, the more I learn about it in religion, the more I come to believe it's just people who prosecute it.

And again, there's scientific facts that support homosexuality is not a choice. So that begs you to ponder your law. Why would a, to be very blunt, "a birth defect" be a sin? Also to clarify something I said before, about homosexuality in animals, my point was not that it was right, but that it is natural, not unnatural.

Now I don't care anymore about this, I really don't care to discuss it, because now I've come to believe it's the individual person's hate and conviction against homosexuality that fuels their religious tyraids, and not their actual books or religions.

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To my second question I posed, I came to another thing to speak about.

"If I don't believe in Jesus Christ as the savior, I will go to hell"

Just ponder this,

Belief and Knowing go hand in hand. You can know something to be true but not believe it, and you can in believe something you know is not true. But in order to truly Know, you must believe as well, so my interpretation of sin is that God says, one who does not know they are sinning is not sinning, In order for it to be a sin, they must know it is a sin and do it willingly.

What I'm telling you is that you can believe without knowing and it is truth to you. However, you can know but not believe, and it is not the truth for you. I do not believe in Jesus Christ, and I do not believe quite a many "sins" are actually sins. But I do, in the literal sense, know of Jesus and sins, I just cannot believe it to be true. I do have morals, and I stand by my morals not because God told me so, but because in my heart of hearts I want goodness, and I want to put out goodness in the world.

Some people can believe in something without any knowledge, and that is faith, a huge part of religion. It is not in my being, my personality, to have faith in things I do not know. I need facts, I need probability, I need something to ratify what is being told to me. It's not because I choose it, but it is to protect myself from propaganda and lies. You may argue this is an excuse to continue my sins, but in my own heart, I BELIEVE, that it is not my choice, it is part of who I am. I BELIEVE I am incapable of believing in Jesus Christ, given the facts of the world and the history I know of him (even outside of the bible).

In my head, I am open however. I talk to God, because I do have a certain level of faith that grew into me as a kid, and from my belief system based on my own philosophies. One thing I talk to God about is Jesus, I ask him, God, if I am wrong, please forgive my inability to have faith, please forgive me for being wrong. I ask him for that forgiveness, because in my heart of hearts like I said I believe in goodness, and if I can put a tangible thing or picture of what goodness is, I would call it God.

Now that you've pondered that, you can see how it's all part of interpretation, it's not absolute. We don't have a religion absolute enough to know for sure how to handle anything with any certainty. So why preoccupy yourselves with all of this preaching and concern for people who do not believe what you believe? Nobody's individual faith is the same as another's, not even two Christians.

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These questions are answered for me, I feel at peace with myself and my knowledge. If anyone else feels this is inadequate for them, bring it up for yourself, but not for me. I have come to my conclusion, yet if you must tell me something new, I will listen for the sake of learning and growing.

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Over 2000 years how many copies of the New Testament do you think have been produced and distributed? Ever hear of the game telephone? Things are bound to be misinterpreted and miscommunicated. If I really wanted to I could argue in Christian terms that homosexuality is not a sin, and I'm sure there are Christian branches or churches or denominations that will say homosexuality isn't a sin. So it's all a word game and people will manipulate their scriptures to fit the meaning they want, so really it isn't religions fault for causing hate or spreading lies its people. Something I've finally come to realize, so with this knowledge I am now relieved because I know things will change. 100 years from now homophobia will be frowned upon just as much as racism or any prejudice before it. So it's no longer an arguement of religion for me, so I'm done discussing homosexuality and religion. That was only one of two questions I posed.

Blasphemy WARNING!!!






Seriously; Blasphemy WARNING!!!







Really, Seriously, Blasphemy WARNING!!!






I could be wrong but you’re actually asking this from 2 points of view, faith or religion.

Religion is the easy one, it’s something created by man to help explain everything he can’t; and that’s most of everything right. So the follow up is if it’s created by man then its neither right nor wrong, it’s just man’s ideas about everything. There is a lot of good in religion, it brings people together, its helps codify right and wrong, but on the bad side its used as a societal control, its used to start wars and other atrocities, it’s the sum of everything evil and bad about us and at the same time everything good that we strive to be. Christianity always seemed really wacked from a theological perspective, I know Jesus was a Jew but continually harassed the rich and powerful of his people, to look beyond themselves to see their evil, I could only figure that Christians took the book of the Jews and added it as dogma because you can’t have the people running around “peace/love” all the time, someone has got to go kill the heathens? It was all about control, and if you read just the words of Jesus, he knew control is just an illusion. The word Christian means today those that follow Christ, not Jesus, Jesus was a man like you or me, Christ was the son of God, Jesus never said he was God, Jesus was comparing the common man to the gods of the day, all leaders were gods right, look at them wrong, say the wrong thing and your dead right, the power of life and death in the last century BC made you god, all Jesus was referring to was the revolutionary idea that we are all God, we are all equal, we are all the same. Some made him into a religion, he did not, and it’s why the Gnostic Gospels and the Dead Sea Scrolls are problematic for Christians. Religion especially Christianity rails about any type of deviancy anything not prescribed in the “good book” ; I always interpreted it as utter non-sense how can someone be a Christian say its ok to kill other Christians (war)? So if they the “believers” can condone killing other like “believers” then neither can be right so when they preach this or say that, if it’s not killing is wrong period or love everyone or turn the other cheek, then they are neither a Christian or a follower of Jesus, so let them say whatever they want their homophobia is their issue not yours; at least not directly. Jesus never preached hate, not in the Bible or in the Gnostic Gospels. He preached love and we are all God.

Faith is something entirely different; faith is personal, a man of religion will flee when there is trouble a man of faith just digs his heals in and waits. Faith is why I know that god is in us, we are god, everything we see or touch or here or think about is god; god is as much us as is the sand or a tree or the moon. God cannot answer our prayers not because he can’t hear us because he can but because our voice is microscopic in terms of the universe. The universe cannot hate, is it hate when you hunt or fish to eat, is it hate when you have to do what you do to survive. Survival is an act of god an act of love an act that reaffirms your humanity, your self-worth, your part no matter how small of being god. I could give you personal example after example of faith; cats have 9 lives, I’ve lost count, something has kept me around for a reason, that reason still remains an utter mystery to me, but I’m still alive. It’s kinda weird the last time my mother saw me she thought she saw scars on my wrists? I know I’ve been really eff’d up more then she’ll ever know, but if I was ever going to do it, god would make sure I was successful, I’ve never failed at something my heart was into, what a bitch. See the faith in knowing that you need to be here, that you have to be here is what empowers you to help, to be yourself, I have seen it, I’m part of it, as are you, you need to be here, you are god, as we all are. Its why I’ve started to call them el diablos, what other term fits the creatures that can destroy lives before they even begin, they can’t be human can they, I know they are part of god, but in no way can they be people, people who feel, people who know pain, who know suffering, but more importantly you know they cannot love, cause if you love there is no way el diablos could do what they do, to deny love is to deny your humanity, and to deny your humanity is to deny god and your connection to the rest of the universe, how else can you rationalize their actions?

Cee

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Okay, well according to the Old Testament, if Jesus was not in fact the messiah, and instead was a false prophet, then you will go to hell for worshipping a false idol. So how do you know which is right? This is what causes wars. Physical wars, with killing and death. Just think about that. There is absolutely no way to know if Jesus was the Son of God. The devil is tricky, what if the devil sent Jesus? There's no solidity to your beliefs, there is no absolute truth. It's based on a whim.

Like I said I'm done discussing those two questions, they're too easy to crumble, morph, and change. I realize you nor anyone else has any Real answers. I don't mean to offend, but that just seems to be the case.

Really I don't even think this is offending in nature, maybe threatening, but your religion (and many others) threatens everyone in the world so I can't really be doing much different by saying any of this.

did you know there were three distinct words for homosexual back in the days of Christ and the Koine Greek.

funny thing is - Paul didn't use ANY of them. He coined his own words, or spoke of the boy prostitutes in the temples and the men that "paid homage" in those temples.

From my underestanding (granted - my understanding) and my faith - no Perfect God is going to write a book about how to live a life for Him ... and never mentioned the word that has everyone up in arms. Of course - they used the bible against blacks, for slavery, you name it - the Word of God has been used wrongly for it.

and as for what is "real" - I can only go by what I have experienced. and most of it has only strengthened my faith - up and including my heart attack.

Nobody wants to offend anyone. We only want our opinion to be the last one stated. And loudest if we can.

I will just use the words of my Lord to build a new phrase for the internet generation.

He said "He who has ears to hear, let him hear"
My take on that - "He who has eyes to see, let him see"

I wish there could be peace - but if I believe as I do about the end times - then there will be wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, men staring at the heavens fearing the stars falling to earth (read in 2013 as "meteors"). Time grows short, and I do fear for those who I believe are "lost". I just praise the Almighty that I'm not the one who will be making that final decision. I care for you all so much... my body can't express it .. and my spirit knows no words that will convey it. But you are all loved - SO MUCH.

We are fellow wounded. Yet we will be the death of us all.

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What makes me sad is that the Word Of God has been watered down, Society today says that there are many different religions all worshiping the same God. This is all part of the big lie. This is part of the complacency that is developing around Christianity. I mean there are churches that have so changed the word of God that the bible means nothing to them, Mormon and Jehovah's witnesses are some of those, then you get the Anglican and Catholic Church who don't even encourage their members to buy a bible, you use one of their books that does the same thing year in and year out.

We can get into the discussion of whether Jesus is or isn't the messiah, my answer is then why is the entire western worlds time based on the birth of this "fictitious" Messiah, why do the Muslims call him a prophet but deny that he is the Savior. Why does the entire world embrace any wacky religion and shun True Christianity. why is everyone trying to prove that God doesn't exist and that this is all an elaborate lie. Why???

Truth is that most of us are afraid to face the truth, we would rather debate till we are crazy, but refuse to serve a awesome living forgiving loving God. Its easier to to bemoan and d=cry about the hand that we have been dealt, to cry because its "Hard" to live a righteous life.
Who said being righteous was easy. One thing that we need to remember is that this Life on earth is but a vapor, but the life here after is for eternity.
This is a dress rehearsal for eternity, so a little suffering now is worth the effort.

Its been fun Guys

Martin

Why I don't believe in Jesus or God is because no human can comprehend or know God. Everything written about him is written by humans, therefore I am agnostic, I neither believe nor disbelieve in the existence of a God, for more information on agnosticism here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

I don't trust human intentions, I personally think most religion is tainted by human kind. Much of it is contradictory, much of it does not coincide with history or facts. Therefore with an open heart I let fate decide where I end up in my faith in God, be there one or not. I will not fear a loving & forgiving God either, it sounds ridiculous to me. So with that in mind, and since this is in the spirituality forum now, just try and respect my beliefs and have faith your God will forgive me, as I do. If you can't then just don't tell me I'm going to hell. Hell does not scare me, because I don't believe in hell, yet it hurts my feelings to think someone thinks I deserve to burn in eternity. Enough to make me ambivalent towards you.

On a side note, wasn't one of Jesus's apostles a nonbeliever after Jesus died until Jesus was resurrected and asked to see the holes in his hands? He didn't go to hell did he? He had to see to believe. That is how I am.

And if you wonder why I care so much about Christianity it's simply because even though I don't believe in it, I am surrounded by a world majority (as in largest world religion) of Christians and their denominations.

As I respect your right. It is a right given by God - part of that "free will" thing that gets us in so much trouble.

I will end on my thougths of the Romans 1 passage:

"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts.

Because of what? Let's look to the earlier passage to find out:

21) For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22) Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23) and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. .... and in 25) They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised.

I do my best to glorify God and give thanks to him constantly (especially when I work out a bad piece of code at work). I do not worship images made to look like men or birds or reptiles ... And I am **positive** I had done none of that before I knew I was gay at age 9. (I knew I was "different as early as age 5 - I just couldn't put a "label" on it until later) So I'm also certain Romans 1 does not pertain to me. I don't fit the "because" reasons. Also, because of the limited scope (non-glorifying God) - my faith says God's punishment was to give them lusts unnatural TO THEM so THEY would be shamed. Not that the act itself is "shameful". The passage is not about same-gender sex - it's about not glorifying God. Just like Sodom's sin wasn't homosexuality - it was lack of compassion to strangers.

Again - in love ... I just think we try too hard to put a box around God's love - and it's too big and keeps pushing down the sides. It has in the past, and I believe it is doing so now on the issue of same-gender love. Man is just, as is typical of man, many many years (centuries) behind God.

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Gentlemen and fellow survivors,

Please be careful with the feelings and beliefs of your peers. On the one hand we have the exact translation of the Holy Scriptures, on the other we have the belief in interpretation. It is imperative that BOTH of these perspectives be held in the highest regard here in this healing place. Be assertive without being aggressive. Please remember that when replying to a post, respond in support or offer your thoughts as your own, not in contradiction to the perceptions of other survivors. While we may not agree, we agree that this place is positive, encouraging and supportive of each other. When it becomes more important to attempt to contend than to empathize, it may be time to step back from this topic.

I am encouraged personally as I have witnessed careful wording and special care not to offend here in the replies. Please continue to care for your fellow survivors and for yourselves.

Sam

The Moderator Team

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i'm just glad my salvation is in my Lord's hands.
.... exit - stage left.

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