The topic of Jesus.

I am not subscribed to any religion. I am a free thinker, a skeptic, agnostic. My beliefs are based on quantum physics, philosophy, and self revelation; among other outward sources of wisdom and intellect. I do believe in a greater good, and the abyss that pulls the good toward negativity and bad. Much like the old Cherokee Indian tale of the two wolves. However, this is not really so much about me in particular, although this subject deeply affects me as an individual. It is the religion of Christianity, or more importantly, the people of whom subscribe to it's beliefs. I have a few questions, questions of deep importance within today's society. Questions that beg to be asked, questions that are of impertinence to be pondered. Questions that will force Christians, be that you or someone you know, to face the unknown, and their own fear of God himself. Because that is what it is, Fear. Fear of damnation. Which is in and of it's self an ironic and contradictory idea, considering God is all loving and all forgiving. I want only to ask these questions, and supply some facts, not to tell Christians they're wrong, but only to supply them with some knowledge and self-reflection over what is truly right, and what is merely an idea, an opinion, or a misinterpretation of messages or scriptures you've been taught.

Homosexuality.

Firstly, what is said about this, is confined only to that of the old testament. Jesus himself never said anything relating to homosexuality.

Secondly, in science, many discoveries have been made that would point to homosexuality being a born quality of men and women (and has been observed in nearly 1,500 species besides just humans). Also, in a recent scientific discovery, it appears that epigenetics actually underlies homosexuality.

Universal Morality and Ethics.

Firstly, why is it, that an all fogiving and all loving God would condemn an otherwise wholly good and just soul to hell, simply for not, key word, "Believing" in Jesus Christ as the savior? Because, without belief, how can one possibly "Accept" this supposed fact? And also, why would he do the same, for an unknowing soul, who's never learned or heard of Jesus, send them to hell as well?

Secondly, and more importantly, why would you assume to know how God would judge any of us? The God who is most incomprehensibly and ever more Omniscient and all knowing than that of any one of us could ever possibly be, ever. Especially when Jesus taught us to love one another without judgement.

Thirdly, I propose this idea to Christians, is it possible that God would forgive a good and just soul, who is open to that forgiveness & deserving of that forgiveness, for being inable to believe that Jesus was in fact the savior, the Messiah? Therefore being in-able to accept him as so.

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Why did I bring this up?

I have known Christians all my life, many Christians I have learned to love. However they pass their judgement onto me because I do not believe Jesus Christ was the savior as well as the fact that I am gay. Many of them say they still love me, yet tell me I need saving. That I will burn in hell because of who I am, when I know in my heart of hearts I am a good person. I'm sure many of you can understand this feeling of being told you will burn in hell from someone you love.

However, speaking for myself, it causes a deep and pungent hurt inside of my heart like no other. It bothers me to in irrefutable amount to hear this from someone I so dearly love and care for. And it also hurts to know there are people around the world who have already condemned me, without even knowing me. Another way to word that is, that society has made it clear, I am not worthy of goodness, I am destined for hell. The effect this has had on me growing up, and on other kids growing up is indescribably horrendous. It's horrendous because of the scale such a perceived cut and clear simplicity can hurt such a wide scale of children who will grow up realizing in themselves they have for whatever reason not met the requirements to be loved, or to deserve good, from the most parental and impertinent figure in a child's world, God. Millions of children will grow into adulthood feeling forsaken because of the cut and dry requirements of religion. And there are limitless ways one can come to this point without any will of it ever happening.

This leads me to describe why one would come to such a point. But for the sake of simplicity, and speaking on my behalf only, I will use the road my life has taken me. I was raised Catholic, much similar to Christianity, and I was abused and raped for so long, it's nearly impossible for me to believe in such a God. And to add to that fact, I am gay, and at least by the cold hard facts of Catholicism (which for some reason are adopted by Christians as well) God doesn't love me for who I was born as. I had no choice in any of this, but from what I've learned I do not deserve to go to heaven. How can I believe in that religion which tells me I shall burn in hell when I strive to have nothing but good in my heart? I am after all only human, as we all are. But the one thing I did choose is to live a life devoid of hate, and a life full of love, with the intent to help as many people as I can and to leave this world a better place than I entered it.

I would love to have this conversation , but unfortunately this is in the wrong section and I dare not even try to touch this in this section . If and when this moves to the correct forum where I could actually elaborate without infuriating the masses who come to this section specifically to avoid people like me , than I would love to try
understand this God is drawing you to himself and i love it

Actually I specifically posed this here, because religion has touched various survivors in one way or another, be it positive or negative. At the very least Catholicism/Christianity played a part in my CSA, therefore I think that makes it appropriate to be discussed it in this forum.

I fully intend to have an open discussion without accusations and without any dismissal of any one persons believes or a group of people's beliefs as a whole. I want to have an enlightening discussion on this topic. Something we can all learn from, in one way, or in another.

Deleated my post. I got a bit of a gut check on this.. I rely need this support structure and dont want to mess it up. I think my belief in Jesus is troubling for many who beleave in God and feel he has rejected or abandon them. I don't want to hurt any one. I would be glad to PM on this one. Sorry to any one if needed. We have a common bond and reason for being here.
I'm not shure if this is going to be a change agent for good or just drive pain deeper. That would be very sad if that happens. Like any of us needs more pain.

First I don't really think this belongs here but that's just my opinion.


Fuck them.

That's another of my opinions.

I believe those that you are talking about have one view of Christianity that is based on fear (as you state) and not love. But they may not see it that way.

This thread is ripe for flaming. Please, please be kind to one another.

Hi CloudyFalls

I am a Jew and probably have A perspective on Christianity that is prejudiced. Particularly Catholicism, which until 1963 thought we were Christ Killers and damned to hell for this untrue past sin.

However, the basis of anti-homosexuality in the new testiment is in Corinthians, ( II I think). There is an error in the translation. What is presented as homosexual, is infact pederast. And I believe and I believe a man who has sex with a boy, particularly anal penatration is a perpetrator, and should be shunned.

However, as you know there is no basis to confusing child rapers with homosexuals.

As G K Chesterton said: I have nothing against Christianity, it's just that no one has tried it yet.

Every institution has hippocrits, broken people, self righteous misinformed and opinionated people. Do you really expect that a church or any house of worship will avoid all of them?

Yes, God was not there to protect me from abuse, physical, sexual, or being turned into a narcisitic supply. But, perhaps you have to reconsider you understanding of God. My God does not prevent free will, nor does he decide who will get cancer, and which babies will have such tortured deforities that life is impossible.

Perhaps your God is involved in such active direction of torture. In which case, yes, I would condemn such a God. I see no evidence of the malevalence of such a power whether God or Devil.

May He Bless you and keep you, may His countenance shine upon you and grant you peace.

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Sorry old chap but it is mentioned in 1:Cor 6 V 9 and again in 1 Tim 1 v 10. But it is a debate that will rage forever.
What most people forget is Grace, and more so these "Christians" that hold up dumb signs like "turn or burn" or "God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve" and the likes, well lets just say that they to shall face judgement. Being a Christian does not mean that you can spread your hatred and silly opinions around because you think you are right. In fact it is the opposite, you need to know Gods word well and then tell people in Love.

What is most important here is Jesus loves you, regardless of what you have done. He has esteemed Fornicators, murders, adultery, and people that have done a lot worse than what we have done, so why should he not forgive and love us. I Mean one of his favorite children was David, and believe me David was not sin free, Same for Solomon, same for Abraham, and the list continues.

I know this is controversial, but hey the Bible is the bible, and what most people forget is that it is the only word of God, this has been proven Scientifically mathematically and otherwise. What some idiotic pastor says from a pulpit is not Gods word.
I cannot judge you, nor can your friends. the only one that can convince you is yourself.

Its odd how two people that have traveled a similar journey have ended up on polar opposites. I, having suffered the same as you have turned to God, even after blaming him for so long, and you have chosen a different path.

My 2 cents worth, and by no means the ultimate and final word on the subject. If you want that then you should take the time to discover what Gods word says on the matter, not any of the "religious people" that claim to know all.

As Jude said earlier. BE KIND TO ONE ANOTHER OR BE GENTLE WITH ONE ANOTHER.

Martin