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#42313 - 06/19/03 06:51 PM Re: Constructive Anger
godsrabbit Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 98
marc,

sorry to be so picky...i guess we all have our salted spots...

your said: "...only the strongest of us survivors can wear it on our sleeve EVERY SINGLE DAY"

good heavens...maybe this, to me, is waving a red flag in front of the bull because it gets me in a place where i say: strength comes in many forms...and that may be your idea of "strong" marc, but that is not my meaning of "strong" and what about all those people who have not developed a definition for themselves? do you see how threatening such a statement is?

i am sure you do not mean it the way i am reading into it and so i am sorry to belabor this, but i think sensitivity to language is one thing all survivors struggle with: a phrase like this very possibly indicates to some people that if you are not wearing it on your sleeve you are not the strongest, and so then must be "weak" and whatever else negative connotation is implied by not being included among the strongest.

forgive me...i just think inclusive language is really important...as you said, we are together in this...raging against the machine is one thing, but raging against the machine and imply that those who do not are "not the strongest" is another...

and i concede that we all have different strengths...i am a weak human being, period. physically, emotionally, intellectually...but i am so hard on myself, and many others are too...i do not think the challenge is healthy...

sorry...i am not trying to argumentative...i will stop...


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#42314 - 06/19/03 07:26 PM Re: Constructive Anger
outis Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 2260
Loc: Maryland USA
Quote:
a phrase like this very possibly indicates to some people that if you are not wearing it on your sleeve you are not the strongest, and so then must be "weak"
Godsrabbit,

I can see the point you make, and I hope you were not offended by my earlier post where I wrote of gathering strength.

I suppose there are different kinds of strengths for different tasks. I desire the kind of strength Marc mentions. I know I will have it, if I keep working. To me it simply means that having cut loose the shame I never deserved, I will have found the strength to speak out against this particular ugliness in our society.

For now I have the strength to continue trying to heal. I thank each of you for helping me find that strength and nuture it. It grows with and within me.

Thanks,

Joe

_________________________
"Telemachos, your guest is no discredit to you. I wasted no time in stringing the bow, and I did not miss the mark. My strength is yet unbroken…"—The Odyssey, translated by W.H.D. Rouse

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#42315 - 06/19/03 07:28 PM Re: Constructive Anger
godsrabbit Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 98
sorry...i really am not offended...

i am perhaps over cautious...that is all...

i will be quiet and try to learn something...


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#42316 - 06/19/03 07:42 PM Re: Constructive Anger
outis Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 2260
Loc: Maryland USA
Godsrabbit,

I certainly don't want to silence anyone, far from it. Please feel free to speak your mind to me at any time.

I just felt that I didn't want to offend you with my post about "strength" which talked mostly about the same "strength" Marc mentions. That kind of strength means a lot to me, because I don't know if a boy was hurt last night because I have been a coward, even now in recovery. I struggle with my right to recover at my chosen pace and the possibility that some other innocent will be looking for this site tomorrow.

That is how I feel about me and the things I want to do. It has no validity outside what I give it for myself.

Thanks,

Joe

_________________________
"Telemachos, your guest is no discredit to you. I wasted no time in stringing the bow, and I did not miss the mark. My strength is yet unbroken…"—The Odyssey, translated by W.H.D. Rouse

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#42317 - 06/19/03 07:54 PM Re: Constructive Anger
godsrabbit Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 98
thank you joe...it is not you...

i have a real problem with anger...i understand where it comes from, but perhaps it is a bit overwhelming to be around so much of what seems "hostility" to me...i had this same difficulty in group therapy...

i am sure it is my problem...i just am not sure what i can do about it...my impulse is to want to "fix" everything and i know that your healing and marc's healing and everyone else's healing is not my own and even on many levels none of my business...

i may to be empathetic to deal with this...sorry...i will try to toughen my skin...


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#42318 - 06/19/03 08:22 PM Re: Constructive Anger
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Quote:
..only the strongest of us survivors can wear it on our sleeve EVERY SINGLE DAY"
Quote:
but i think sensitivity to language is one thing all survivors struggle with: a phrase like this very possibly indicates to some people that if you are not wearing it on your sleeve you are not the strongest, and so then must be "weak" and whatever else negative connotation is implied by not being included among the strongest.
That's a good point well made there Godsrabbit. and I mean no offence to Marc who made a good point as well.
Reading this excellent topic made me fully realise that we just use our strengths in different ways.

Some of us shout and bang on the tables, and others go about their lives quietly, same strength - different ways.

The origional question raised the problem of banging tables and getting the word out to those who haven't heard, and I think that that because it's "SEXUAL" abuse it's pushed back and ignored.

Look at how high profile Physical Abuse charities are, and how much money they raise.
Sex is still sleazy for most people.

How long has the Gay & Lesbian community been fighting for true recognition ?
How about Clinics for STD's compared to other diseases ?
The list goes on, and 'liberation' isn't in sight yet I don't think.

The media and society still hold such repressed views about all kinds of sexual topics, unless two Holywood stars are shagging each other then it's front page news !

Here in the UK the chain of Anne Summers shops ( similar to Victoria's Secrets ) wanted to advertise for staff at the Government run 'Department of Employment', they wanted shopgirls - not prostitutes.
But the DoE said "NO" - because selling racy lingerie in smart hight street stores was part of the "Sex industry"
Anne Summers took them to court and won, and rightly so.

With that sort of attitude around what chance have we got of telling our stories "like it is" ?

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#42319 - 06/19/03 09:02 PM Re: Constructive Anger
Marc Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 256
Loc: Tucson, AZ
godsrabbit

Quote:
who is standing by doing nothing?
i find that generalization disturbing...
are we doing nothing?
and yet...

Quote:
good heavens... maybe this, to me, is waving a red flag in front of the bull because it gets me in a place where i say: strength comes in many forms...and that may be your idea of "strong" marc, but that is not my meaning of "strong" and what about all those people who have not developed a definition for themselves? do you see how threatening such a statement is?

i am sure you do not mean it the way i am reading into it and so i am sorry to belabor this, but i think sensitivity to language is one thing all survivors struggle with: a phrase like this very possibly indicates to some people that if you are not wearing it on your sleeve you are not the strongest, and so then must be "weak" and whatever else negative connotation is implied by not being included among the strongest.

forgive me...i just think inclusive language is really important...as you said, we are together in this...raging against the machine is one thing, but raging against the machine and imply that those who do not are "not the strongest" is another...

and i concede that we all have different strengths...i am a weak human being, period. physically, emotionally, intellectually...but i am so hard on myself, and many others are too...i do not think the challenge is healthy...
We can not have it both ways. Yes godsrabbit, I believe that you are weak at this time in your life. (Speaking my mind and not attacking. \:\) ) I believe this is also a temporary issue however. Do you have difficulty with confrontation? With anger? By your own words, yes you do. You are not by any manner of speaking a 'slave' to it however. With your healing will come strength and with that strength, I would hope a sense of responsibility. For it is this and only this ability to act which can save others. As I mentioned earlier, I do believe that I am my brothers keeper. I choose to carry the burden at this time and I wrap myself in that flag and comfort myself with the warmth of these convictions. Again... my choice. Somewhat martyristic and sh^t who's asking me? No one... except the millions or more crying little boys and girls that I refuse silence on behalf of.

I realize that I tend to be a very dominant personality sometimes. I have even been told before by some that they have felt 'steam rolled' by me and so I am aware of this though often unaware when it is occurring.

It is because I do have passion. It is my salvation. Sometimes the ONLY thing that gets me through is my conviction in what I believe is 'right' and my ability to charge into the windmills. Foolish sometimes but again, that is me. Occasionally it is best for me to temper that and this is where someone like you has strength that I do not (Called restraint). I ask for people like you to help me to find a balance somewhere in the middle of this duality. Understand?

Joe (Outis)

You honor me that you believe I have any validity in my words.

I often lose faith quickly in my self and in my beliefs. Though I may know that pragmatically, what I believe and what I say is correct, I lose steam in the fight quickly. I'm afraid after a nervous breakdown that I suffered many years ago while trying to be a 'gay' activist, I became a ghost at the hands of the very community I sought to protect and nuture. Without form or substance. No offense to the gay and lesbian community but we can be a canibalistic lot. That is to say, we eat our own. I believe that it is at least partially because of my effort to be so inclusive, as godsrabbit earlier mentioned, that the breakdown occurred. I became highly sensitive to ANY confrontation after that for many years. I was left personality-wise a confrontation eunuch.

In lieu of the above, I would claim victim status if only this one time in my life because my body and worse my mind TRULY betrayed me. So I have had a great fear of another breakdown since then though none has ever occuerred and the panic attacks I grew up with have all but disappeared.

Again, thank you for believing in me.

P.S. godsrabbit, don't you dare back down now!

You are already becoming a very valuable member of the pack and if I become too intimidating I shall back down because including you on the site and allowing you a voice is more important to me than anything else. I WON'T eat my own. ;\)


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#42320 - 06/19/03 09:48 PM Re: Constructive Anger
godsrabbit Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 98
Quote:
Originally posted by Lloydy:
Reading this excellent topic made me fully realise that we just use our strengths in different ways.
precisely lloydy, thank you for recognizing that.
Quote:
Originally posted by Marc:
We can not have it both ways.
please let me clarify...i am not contradicting myself...i say i am weak because i believe all human beings are weak...i am speaking in terms of comparing to a higher power...and i am not weak at this time in the way you think i am...nor irresponsible....and you do not know me to know whether i am weak, and you do not frighten me, and i will not be baited into a argument (and i am not being defensive, i am just telling you that i disagree with you)...
Quote:
P.S. godsrabbit, don't you dare back down now!

You are already becoming a very valuable member of the pack and if I become too intimidating I shall back down because including you on the site and allowing you a voice is more important to me than anything else. I WON'T eat my own. ;\)
if i leave it is because i have made a prayerful decision to do so for my own health and wellness...not for anything anyone says here...and thank you for not eating others...

i do not disrespect your feelings marc, i take issue with your word choices because they seem disregarding of others' feelings. you are being an alpha male in the wolf pack and some of us who have been dominated by other men our whole lives, do not appreciate it...

that is not to say i do not love you (like a brother, if i must qualify it)...just to say: ease up on the shift, you are stripping the gears.


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#42321 - 06/19/03 10:31 PM Re: Constructive Anger
Marc Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 256
Loc: Tucson, AZ
It is becoming apparant that I am coming across as hostile which is not my intent. I'll choose for the sake of keeping the peace to discontinue further discourse on this topic.

I apologize if I have offended you godsrabbit.

Again, welcome to the site. Please do stay, grow and teach brother. \:\)


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#42322 - 06/19/03 10:40 PM Re: Constructive Anger
godsrabbit Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 98
i am not offended marc, bless you...

we have very different ways of looking at the world...i hope between the two of us we can find some balance...

and i apologize if it seems i got my hackles up...no, i do not like "confrontation" it is not personally useful to me...

thank you for your patience....


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