***Possible triggers*** I know this may sound stupid and I especially don't want to offend any of the therapists who are on here that work with survivors but do CSA Ts ever say "nope this was normal experimentation and not abuse." when it truly wasn't abuse? Now obviously there are clear cut cases where it definately was abuse like a 30 year old giving a 8 year old oral sex. But what happens in those grey cases such as my own where I don't remember much and the incident happened with a brother who is only 3 years older and I'm 13. I don't know it just is confusing especially when I don't remember much. I don't know how to explain it but I'm putting this out there anyway

Thanks for listening.
Jason

Hi Jason

I'm not a therapist - I'm a survivor who's been on the journey of recovery for nearly 9 years now. I've spent a fortune on my recovery - seen a few therapists; read many books; read loads of online articles; spent 100s of hours talking in person and in chatrooms with survivors from all over the world. Here's what I've learned that may come close to answering the questions that you have.

First of all: If you were the recipient of unwanted attention that had a sexual component to it and you wanted it to stop but it didn't stop; then you my friend were mistreated (the literal meaning of abuse) ie you were sexually abused.

Unfortunately, the laws in the majority of the world are made by men more like your brother than like you and me. What they have decided is that (remember that laws differ in various parts of the world)there has to be a minimum of two years difference in the ages of the parties involved and / or clear evidence of the older person having an authoritarian position over the younger.

The key thing with the therapists I've worked with and also the survivors that I've talked with, is to look at the feelings and the effect that those incidents have had on you.

It is also worth remembering that when we are traumatised, one of the defense mechanisms that our brains employ to try and lessen the trauma, is to try and find ways of making it seem normal or that the traumatic event was, in some way, wanted. This is why so many of us have all sorts of confusion.

Can I also point out to you that if you have difficulty in remembering the events it is just as likely that the reason for not being able to recall them is that the brain considered it important to bury them to keep them safe until you were in a better position to deal with them.

That is why so many of us have memories that come back to us when we are on our journey of recovery, in the way of flash backs, body memories and recovered memories. The general advice is: don't go looking for memories. When you in a good place to deal with what returns; that is the time that the memories will surface.

I hope that some of this might be of help. Bare in mind, that this is my opinion - others may well have a different opinion.

ADen

This is something that ultimately you have to examine and answer for yourself - relevant questions are: what this behavior forced or introduced to you without your consideration or affirmation? (The age difference you shared btwn you and your brother is a red flag- he was almost an adult while you were in your first teenage year- he had more power .) Once it began , did your consent or attitude towards it change? Who was in charge of the activity? How long and many times did it continue? How has it affected your sexual development and your relationships among your family, friends, and romantic interests?

I sexually experimented with a slightly older boy who knew a lot more than I did when I was 11-12 years old. (He was one year older) This wasn't really abuse, but it was harmful in light of how I developed and how sexuality was modeled to me in my upbringing. I often wondered how and where this kid got his information and learned this stuff-

You might ask the same question of your brother- where did he learn the stuff he did with you?

My real abuse was repressed for a long time and was perpetrated a few years earlier by some teens who were six years older- that was definitely abuse and did the deepest damage.

Hi Jason. The three years difference concerns me. It is not insignificant. I agree with Mountainous Buck. You will need to determine for yourself if it was abuse.

The friend who abused me was about three years older. There is/was no doubt in my mind that it was abuse.

hi jason,

I agree with exopm. **Trigger**

My older brother was 12, I was 10, my little brother was8. My experience was that the first time it was certainly abuse against my younger brother. however his masturbating on our bodies was clearly under his control. I probably would not count this if there were no other experience, but he manipulated me when he was 14 and I was 12. After he had me suck him, he berated me for being a homosexual.

While legally, this is probably not abuse, but it was.

Initial Question:

YES. They do. There are in reality VERY VERY few "CSA Experts." And in reality, very few Ts are even "trauma-adept." Doesn't that seem FUBAR to you?

T's are as human as you and I...(or maybe you). MANY I have met and talked with, reveal their old ruins of a mental city that we all call "Myth Town." The trouble is, Myth Town may be in ruin, but they then tried to build their "new, educated T-self," upon the old ruins. Some of those new structures of belief, only come from text books and seminars.

I've been told:

"Still...this happens to everyone in one way or another."
"kids mess around"
"Kids explore and experiment and discover"

Total and complete bullshit! BULLSHIT I claim!!!! Bullshit!

If its SO darned normal, if its SO non-risky, SO accepted, why does the Alpha child ensure that the events will not be discovered?

Now, I understand that children do all that experimentation, and exploration and yada yada yada... BUT...if its truly in the natural sprit of acceptable and non-coercive, the parents or adults ought not be in shock or react as if it were "bad."

Your initial question: Do CSA experts ever say "it wasn't abuse," is in reality a question of culpability (IMO) or invalidation of your reactive life.

It was abuse if it could not be discovered. It was abuse if YOU never thought of doing it and seeking it when an older child is involved. It was abuse if YOU were satifying the wants of another child.

Thank you all for your responses, I guess it's hard to answer those questions when I don't remember details. I guess the fact that I don't remember possibly means that I don't want to and I'm blocking out details because they are traumatic. Or maybe they never happened (sorry, my doubts don't want to let to I guess had to get that one in.) I guess the best way to deal with this is to get back into therapy with someone with Male CSA experience see what I can remember with a bit of the proper questions and then decide whether it would be wise to focus on the details or more treating the symptoms. To answer MBs question I believe he had a copy of the book "The Joy of Sex" but I don't recall when he got it before or after the abuse started. Also I wonder where he got it, it wasn't like you could go online to Amazon.com and have one shipped.

I have been told that what my brother did was abuse by Ts with Male CSA experience but I guess I was thinking that a CSA might be influenced by their expertise. Probably not. Anyway thanks again for the replies