Jude started a thread in the Gay/Transgendered section and I am bringing it here to the general forum. I hope that's OK and isn't a form of hijacking, but his points are really important not just for the gay members but for everyone. And I have experienced a particular resonance with this issue as recently as this past week (another reason I wanted to post separately - to avoid hijacking).

The question is simple: What makes a man? There are many answers of course, at many levels. My answer is the XY sex chromosome. I am not being flip. I just got word from my doctor that he wants to have me karyotyped for XXY. He was wondering if my testosterone levels were low, tested them, and while he found them to be normal, he also found an unexpected but strong female hormonal signature (elevated FSH/LH levels). He said it was not a trivial elevation - that my levels were twice over normal, and is thinking about ruling out a condition called Klinefelter's syndrome.

From what I understand, KF syndrome can present anywhere from no symptoms to very overt ones. In general, KF boys MAY be heavier, have breast enlargement and underdevelopment of the male reproductive organs. They may also show broader hips, weaker bone structure, delayed or truncated male development, look younger than their age, and be generally less muscularly coordinated than their peers (read: picked last for basketball). There may be many XXY males who showed such subtle symptoms they were never diagnosed.

In my case, I was slender rather than heavy, definitely did not have broad hips (I was actually nicknamed "Snake Hips" in the military), and my breasts were normal and flat. But I always looked younger than my age and never developed much body hair or male "bulk" despite all the athletics I participated in. I've said before here that as a 12-year-old boy I was co-victimized with a bunch of 7-8-year-old girls and in part blamed my physical countenance at the time. I wanted so badly to be the Brawny Paper Towel guy - to the point of painting charcoal beards on my face when I was going through the early stages of my abuse. The closest I ever got to the Brawny guy was having his paper towels in my kitchen. Frankly, I like Viva better, but that's another topic.

The implications of this - IF in fact it is KF - seem huge. Could one be genetically predisposed to abuse? Is that a topic that has ever been addressed here? Could I have been sending out hormonal signals back then? I'm not really freaking about this, but damn - it seems any time I think I find insights and perspective, I suddenly learn just how deep this rabbit hole goes.

I would assume that anything effecting your chromosome count would lead to cognitive / communication difficulties that you most decidedly do not display. Plus, you say you didn't have boobs.

Mentality wise or physical ?
Things that have to do with chromosomes can determine a lot but their is a level of choice that comes into play . Your feelings do not have to determine how you choose to live your life .

There are other factors also for example a female can Not raise a boy to be a man regardless what people say . Are there good mothers sure but she can Not teach a boy to act like a man it has to be taught . There will be elements missing from the boys life .

The same goes for a man can Not raise a female to be woman
He can not teach how to be a woman because he is not a female he does not have the feelings & emotions of a female the same with a female can not teach a male to be a man she lacks the mindset of a male .

So if you are raised by a female with no male in the hone you will inevitably have more feminine qualities about yourself like it or not . The same for a female raised by a male.

That is why the 2 parent home is vital there must be a balance. But in todays society this is almost unheard of and we are all paying the consequences .

Not to say we can not seek out male figures or place ourselves in position to learn and grow around males . There are ways to gain knowledge and we are able to get an understanding of the role of a man and what a man looks like.

I have had to do that because there were no male figures besides the ones who molested me .
So i have placed males in my life strong men . My pastor being one of them . His influence in my life is huge even though he is not my father he is the closes thing i have and it is someone i highly respect and i love his character .

So choosing the ones to place in that role also can determine the way you perceive for yourself as a man . A lot of it is perception who do you want to see yourself as a man ?
What does the ideal man to you look like ?
Like i said there is an element of choice in the matter .

Really it boils down to your own desire to live the way you want to live . How masculine do you want to be? How feminine do you want to be ? Was there s balance of both to learn from?

This rabbit hole goes real deep . We are all structured or conditioned to a point by our upbringing . This however does not have to be the final word. This does not have to be the end game .
We have choice we have the ability to CHANGE and adapt . We do not have to live the way we were raised we do not have to stay a product of the environment we came from.

The question is really what do you as a man want to look like ? Cause everyone has their own ideal of what that is .
For me i want to be Christ centered and accountable to him . I want to be a great husband and father . Responsible & strong but someone who can be stable enough and confident enough to show my feelings not just cover them up .
The man i am becoming is ever growing thirsty for knowledge and always seeking ways to improve .
I do not shy away from challenges instead confront them .

Was i always like this hell no.

But my thirst to be a better man and to want to find the answers to questions instead of settling in comfortableness
Staying stagnant is not an option . These are what make a man up in my mind for me .
Some are cool with just providing for their families , that makes up a man in their eyes . Some think moving out of their parents house makes them a man.

So i ask again what is your idea of a man .

I appreciate what you are saying and - yes - so many different factors go into to making us who we are, from genetics to traumas to pleasures to personal role models to even movie characters or sports heroes. I do not debate it, but rather mention that after wading through all that stuff, this new variable is thrown into the equation. For all I know, I well may NOT have KF syndrome, or the hormone thing may not have been an issue back at the time I was molested, or if it was an issue it may not have had any true effect or influence on events. Those answers won't come in this thread, nor do I expect them to. I only share the realization (for me at least) that the universe is still unfolding itself in enough little pieces every now and then to keep me humble about what I think I know. One of my favorite quotes goes something like this: "I am fairly certain that I know much of what I think I know, and am even more certain I am wrong about something I am sure I know."

That said, I felt like a girl during the abuse years - even when I wasn't with my abuser. Has anyone else experienced those feelings? It's hard to explain, but I never saw myself as tough or strong or big or macho as much as I desperately wanted to be so. I was convinced people saw me as effeminate despite acting the role of what I imagined a real man was supposed to be. And so I inhabited my childhood as little as I could - preferring fantasy instead. Most of it was spent trying to be someone I was not. My life was little snippets of humiliation, shame, secrets and self-reproach, floating in a sea of day dreams.


Perhaps because I never could see myself as a man - or maybe because I never knew what being a "man" really meant - I settled for just being a good person. It seems to be working fine so far.

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Eric,

No hijacking here...just go with it, its a good topic.

Jude

This offends me as a gay male or rather concerns me. What do you think will happen to a child who is raised by two men or two women? Much of what "men" and "women" are is just stereotypes that have almost nothing to do with our biological makeup. Men can wear make-up and love theater just like women can have short hair and love sports. I can't stand constricting stereotypes like this. The only difference between men and women is biological and how their anatomy affects their psychology or the outcome of that person as a whole has nothing to do with whether or not they're "raised correctly" to BE a man or a woman. You are BORN a man or a woman, not raised to be a man or woman.

I think this is why this question was posed in the "Gay/Bi/Trans Survivors" section. As to avoid the stereotypical straight man descriptions that have been pounded into our brains our whole lives. And when we don't meet these specific qualities somehow we feel like we're "less of a man" or more importantly less of a person. This is a serious and real question to people questioning their gender, ie transgendered people, ie the "Trans Survivors" section. Of which I have posed this question to myself, and it is not an easy question to answer BECAUSE of how many things relating to gender actually have nothing to do with gender.



Yes I can relate to you. I never ever felt like a man (or boy) growing up, and to this day when I hear "Man" the first thing I think is, well that's just not me. I used to look in the mirror and wonder why don't I feel like a man? It causes me great confusion, I want to know why I feel this way. Is it because I'm gay? Is it because I could possibly be transgendered? Is it because I was born this way or something is causing it biologically? And why does it bother me? It's all a part of finding out who I really am. But most importantly knowing whatever it is, there's nothing wrong with not fitting the "normal" stereotype.

I won't hold it against you, and I'll let bygones be bygones. You're right our beliefs are just two different beliefs and while you took some jabs at me, I'll make none at you. And you make it damn well hard not to make a rebuttal, but since you brought up the idea of weakness, I will say I am much stronger than you will ever comprehend, and I say that with 100% confidence in myself.

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