Just consider who you're talking to, dude.

You *know* there are sensitive people here, and you *know* some of your comments can and have incited anger. You acknowledged it in previous posts, its happened numerous times, and yet you do it anyway ... and then complain it happened again. You're never going to make folks less sensitive. You're going to have to accept it as a reality of life.

Stop touching the hot stove. That's all I'm saying.

No. I refuse to be judged an inadequate parent, without any proof, simply because my daughter's mom died. Sure, I cannot be a female role-model, but my daughter comes into contact with enough adult females in her day-to-day life to fill that void. I am not bringing her up in isolation. She does not lack female role-models.

I'm betting I can do a lot better than many two-parent families, simply because it is the most important thing in my life. And I will not let you, or anyone else, make me feel inadequate. Ever. I'm done with letting other people dictate what I am able or unable to do.

So when you say stop touching the hot stove you mean i should have a magical crystal ball to be able to tell who is going to be offended
or triggered . This is why it is called an opinion . I honestly did not try to push anyone's buttons I did not try to offend anyone . So by saying
stop touching the hot stove you are Assuming that I know what topics to stay away from.
I do have an idea of topics to stay away from . No one is perfect when i do offend i man up and admit it .

Trust me i have held my tongue many a times
wanting to just put it out there on some of Your threads .

I no you will not be able to handle the comments so I just say nothing at all. If there ever was a stove i no not to touch it is yours .

And knowing that I say nothing ,so really there is no way of knowing
when someone ask for your opinion and you give it
that it is going to offend someone because everyone is in a different place .
But one needs to understand that people have different views they have different opinions and if they do not want to here them they should not ask for them .

I am just so frustrated by the fact that when people do not like what you have to say people start piling on .When I disagree I just move on from the thread because I know i just disagree with it does not have to turn into a war.

When someone ask for an opinion than when one is given and someone does not agree with it they freak out .The original thread starter
said that is good enough for me,only after people started boo hooing than the whole thread changed to a
different tone .
Than he started to unleash his own offenses . In the beginning he held them back if he was offended , this is the approach i take
i just back off even if i feel differently I keep it respectful . But when people start calling me out and saying i am this or that than i finally
snapped and lost it . That i admit .

I gave so many opportunities for open interpretation after the question was asked . So which is it that I am suppose to magically know what topic is so hot?

I gave NUMEROUS opportunities for one to come to their OWN conclusions







AND THE KICKER



So that being said I just do not care to go into these silly little back and fourth sessions worrying about peoples opinions when the thread gave permission





So I guess my levels are not included

get my point ?

Now maybe this thread can go back to the original question

I hope the next guy that answers is included in EVERYONE
And is allowed to give his different LEVELS of interpretation
without being piled on

peace I am out
I will go back to the spirituality forum were I usually dwell at

Lets take a step back gentlemen. We are all survivors who need support and forgiveness for our idealisms.

i've been following this thread with interest and finally was able to put words to what i think. thanks to all who contributed. your input has helped me work out my own stand on the issue.

What is a Man?

This question has puzzled me for some time.

It obviously has more than one meaning – or at least has several connotations. And it has to be more than just having a penis and testicles and having completed puberty. Many boys have the equipment and ability to impregnate a female and reproduce – but few people would call them "men" in the full sense of the word at 13-17. I was sexually mature at 11 or 12 but far from being a man. Legally – 18 is the dividing line in many countries – and some males do seem to be mature in more than the physical sense at that age – but it is probably a small percentage – especially in western developed cultures. As young people have easier lives and more comforts, leisure and wealth, it seems that their maturity level seems to decrease even as their physical and sexual maturation occurs earlier. A Jewish boy is apparently called a “man” at about 13 when he has his bar mitzvah – but that is a spiritual or ethical designation – not a physical or character description. However, I think that each of these aspects needs to be considered and combined in our definition – sexual/physical maturity, legal responsibility, spiritual/ethical/character maturity.

So far, little of that description follows the stereotypical image of the macho man. It doesn’t seem to be about big biceps, a bulging basket, a hairy chest, stiff upper lip, steely unflinching eyes, a square set jaw, strong, silent demeanor, a fighting attitude, sports prowess, owning enviable guns and cars, indulging an insatiable sex drive or a Don Juan playboy lifestyle. But those are the things that our popular culture, the entertainment media, and the advertising industry have brainwashed us into buying into. The most up-to-date version would probly include, “rich, powerful,influential and owning all the best of the latest electronic gimicks” as well.

Now for the personal spin:
The step-father was the first role model – and also the first abuser - in my life. He fit quite a few of the stereotypical macho man traits – hairy, unemotional, non-communicative, physically strong, independent, loved sports and cars and tools, active and violent. A “self-made man,” he had “pulled himself up by his own bootstraps” and become a successful executive, without benefit of a college education. He was cruel and angry and I feared and despised him. He feminized me by his demeaning, emasculating treatment, forced me to be “mommy’s little helper” and perform many household chores that in those days were considered “women’s work,” and then called me names like “sissy, girly and queer” - for being what he had created. I wanted to be nothing like him. I knew from a very early age what mature male genitals looked like. When puberty started to happen to me – at too early an age – I did not want to be like him in that way either. I wonder now if that reluctance and resistance to my own development might have made me act and appear less masculine to others. I shied away from the typical male activities that I could never perform at a skill level that satisfied him – sports, mechanics, science. instead i spent my time improving my art, acting, writing and reading. Thus – I became even more extremely the opposite of him – and in his eyes – and therefore in mine – I was even less of a man.

When other abusers – the jock bullies at school and scouts - impacted my life and self-image, surprisingly, I experienced a reversal of feelings. I now struggle to understand why that was. I felt the same humiliation and conflict and degradation. But this time I wanted to be like them. I almost wanted to be them. They, too, were stereotypical macho “role models:” sports stars, muscular, confident, self-centered and tough. But I saw them as admirable and desirable. So why the difference? They were certainly younger, more handsome, popular and admired than the step-dad. But they had many of the traits that I hated in the him: disregard for others’ feelings, shallowness, dominance and a craving for power and control. All of these – both the positive and the negative – were diametrically opposite to me. I started to consciously imitate some of the outward traits that I found more masculine in them – tones and patterns of speech, gestures, styles of moving and walking. But I was selective; I kept my own ways of thinking and feeling.

Now that I am analyzing it all – I have come to a conclusion – that the stereotypical macho “manly” set of values and characteristics are not ones that I find even the slightest bit valuable or desirable. I cherish a whole different menu of traits to define my ideal of MAN: integrity, faithfulness to ones’ ideals, moral courage, responsibility, humility, dependability, sincerity, honesty, inter-dependency, empathy, compassion, self-sacrifice, a strong drive for justice and a desire to protect the weak and oppressed.

I was a failure at meeting the step-dad’s and society’s definition of manhood. at this point in my life - i don't give rip for that. i am finished with their lies. I may not totally achieve my own ideals either – but at least the effort will be more worthwhile. It reminds me of the code of chivalry of King Arthur’s knights or of the “Impossible Dream” of Don Quixote.

And that’s how I see it.
Lee

As the starter of this thread, I think it appropriate for me to express support for Sam's suggestion to "take a step back," not to mention that Sam is a moderator - so it is within the whole of proper form to heed that advice.

It is clear which side of this side-tracked argument everyone is on. It is equally clear no one is going to "win" it. I learn something from everyone here. I learn a lot even from those I disagree with - but only when my curiosity is stronger than my sensibility.

Gentlemen, the topic at hand as described in the original post to this thread is still open for discussion. It's not an easy thing to discuss, and I really appreciate the many sensitive insights offered. It feels good to be back here once again, sharing things with you I could never even bring to my partner. Each and every one of you who responded I consider a friend.

Good parenting makes a man.

Healhy Rites of passage make a man.

Support and nurturing make a man.

A boy will grow into adulthood regardless of these things- but a man learns from others and hopefully has the benefit of good role models, teachers, and mentors throughout his life. These are people who show emotional honesty, safety, and numerous other good values.

I did a powerful men's training several years ago designed to follow tradition rites of initiation our cultures used to bring boys into manhood. It was safe, affirming, challenging and helped me grow in ways my upbringing never did. It gave me tools to navigate my emotional world. I learned to Be vulnerable around other men who are safe and nurturing- regardless of our differences (political, social, sexual).

Men learn by doing. We are wired differently than women and need to be working on good wiring our whole lives - there is no strict definition of what makes a man.

I know I no longer feel like a boy because if the work I've done-
that is my wish for everyone here.

I can help and not hurt others - I affirm life and hope and love.

Responding to THIS only: I read the initial post nearly more as "why are some chosen?" Minutes before reading this however, I wrote the following to my T, as I have had realizations that morph or challenge the "it was not your fault" doctrine:

This world looks at complaining as a sin; both secular and biblical. I feel so very wrong in expressing any of it any longer. people of character dont talk about their stuff. there's no way to magically shape or paint a mass of evil into something other than what it is, and people don't want to know.

There is a certain truth to "it being my fault." If you take a heard of zebras, the lions make a choice. Even for the lions there is a choice. They choose one. That "one" has attributes that drives the fateful selection. He's weak, slow, looks unique, stupid, naive...too stupid to survive...he's different from the balance of the heard. The kill may not be the decisiosn of the chosen zebra, but the reasons he is chosen are fully his to own. He did not decide to have a weak leg, or ugly stripes or a weak brain...but they are his legs, stripes and brain.

And the chosen zebra does not rise from the dead and give a fkg TV interview to the Animal Planet cameras. He has the good taste to stay down and rot quietly. No one wants to see a rotten carcass walking around the normal zebras, and they don't want to hear what he has to say. They don't want to hear complaints about the lions devouring me.

Sorry if its too off topic. I just saw the "why chosen" parallel.

There are a lot of zebras still walking around alive with big claw marks on their asses.

I'm sorry if anyone interprets this as a slam on any of us who talk about their stuff. HERE, we can vent, describe, talk, think out-loud, on and on and on, and it is fully acceptable. Also above, I am not literally slamming our badly needed vents and essays. I'm just trying to illustrate what I see as a reality in our "public relations."

I'm of the school that "no one gives a flip" about what happened to us "back then." They see what I do as unbecoming (going public to call-out the bad-guys) and breaking the myths where possible.

In reading what draws the lion to the chosen zebra is said to not be physical appearance, like "wow...nice zebra..." Rather its first and foremost conditions of opportunity.