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#421126 - 01/05/13 11:51 AM What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy...
Chase Eric Offline
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Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1308
Jude started a thread in the Gay/Transgendered section and I am bringing it here to the general forum. I hope that's OK and isn't a form of hijacking, but his points are really important not just for the gay members but for everyone. And I have experienced a particular resonance with this issue as recently as this past week (another reason I wanted to post separately - to avoid hijacking).

The question is simple: What makes a man? There are many answers of course, at many levels. My answer is the XY sex chromosome. I am not being flip. I just got word from my doctor that he wants to have me karyotyped for XXY. He was wondering if my testosterone levels were low, tested them, and while he found them to be normal, he also found an unexpected but strong female hormonal signature (elevated FSH/LH levels). He said it was not a trivial elevation - that my levels were twice over normal, and is thinking about ruling out a condition called Klinefelter's syndrome.

From what I understand, KF syndrome can present anywhere from no symptoms to very overt ones. In general, KF boys MAY be heavier, have breast enlargement and underdevelopment of the male reproductive organs. They may also show broader hips, weaker bone structure, delayed or truncated male development, look younger than their age, and be generally less muscularly coordinated than their peers (read: picked last for basketball). There may be many XXY males who showed such subtle symptoms they were never diagnosed.

In my case, I was slender rather than heavy, definitely did not have broad hips (I was actually nicknamed "Snake Hips" in the military), and my breasts were normal and flat. But I always looked younger than my age and never developed much body hair or male "bulk" despite all the athletics I participated in. I've said before here that as a 12-year-old boy I was co-victimized with a bunch of 7-8-year-old girls and in part blamed my physical countenance at the time. I wanted so badly to be the Brawny Paper Towel guy - to the point of painting charcoal beards on my face when I was going through the early stages of my abuse. The closest I ever got to the Brawny guy was having his paper towels in my kitchen. Frankly, I like Viva better, but that's another topic.

The implications of this - IF in fact it is KF - seem huge. Could one be genetically predisposed to abuse? Is that a topic that has ever been addressed here? Could I have been sending out hormonal signals back then? I'm not really freaking about this, but damn - it seems any time I think I find insights and perspective, I suddenly learn just how deep this rabbit hole goes.
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#421129 - 01/05/13 12:14 PM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Chase Eric]
SoccerStar Offline
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Registered: 10/15/12
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Loc: New York
I would assume that anything effecting your chromosome count would lead to cognitive / communication difficulties that you most decidedly do not display. Plus, you say you didn't have boobs.
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#421137 - 01/05/13 01:24 PM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Chase Eric]
nltsaved Offline


Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 842
Loc: Kc,Mo
Mentality wise or physical ?
Things that have to do with chromosomes can determine a lot but their is a level of choice that comes into play . Your feelings do not have to determine how you choose to live your life .

There are other factors also for example a female can Not raise a boy to be a man regardless what people say . Are there good mothers sure but she can Not teach a boy to act like a man it has to be taught . There will be elements missing from the boys life .

The same goes for a man can Not raise a female to be woman
He can not teach how to be a woman because he is not a female he does not have the feelings & emotions of a female the same with a female can not teach a male to be a man she lacks the mindset of a male .

So if you are raised by a female with no male in the hone you will inevitably have more feminine qualities about yourself like it or not . The same for a female raised by a male.

That is why the 2 parent home is vital there must be a balance. But in todays society this is almost unheard of and we are all paying the consequences .

Not to say we can not seek out male figures or place ourselves in position to learn and grow around males . There are ways to gain knowledge and we are able to get an understanding of the role of a man and what a man looks like.

I have had to do that because there were no male figures besides the ones who molested me .
So i have placed males in my life strong men . My pastor being one of them . His influence in my life is huge even though he is not my father he is the closes thing i have and it is someone i highly respect and i love his character .

So choosing the ones to place in that role also can determine the way you perceive for yourself as a man . A lot of it is perception who do you want to see yourself as a man ?
What does the ideal man to you look like ?
Like i said there is an element of choice in the matter .

Really it boils down to your own desire to live the way you want to live . How masculine do you want to be? How feminine do you want to be ? Was there s balance of both to learn from?

This rabbit hole goes real deep . We are all structured or conditioned to a point by our upbringing . This however does not have to be the final word. This does not have to be the end game .
We have choice we have the ability to CHANGE and adapt . We do not have to live the way we were raised we do not have to stay a product of the environment we came from.

The question is really what do you as a man want to look like ? Cause everyone has their own ideal of what that is .
For me i want to be Christ centered and accountable to him . I want to be a great husband and father . Responsible & strong but someone who can be stable enough and confident enough to show my feelings not just cover them up .
The man i am becoming is ever growing thirsty for knowledge and always seeking ways to improve .
I do not shy away from challenges instead confront them .

Was i always like this hell no.

But my thirst to be a better man and to want to find the answers to questions instead of settling in comfortableness
Staying stagnant is not an option . These are what make a man up in my mind for me .
Some are cool with just providing for their families , that makes up a man in their eyes . Some think moving out of their parents house makes them a man.

So i ask again what is your idea of a man .
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#421142 - 01/05/13 02:50 PM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: nltsaved]
Chase Eric Offline
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Originally Posted By: ntlsaved
So i ask again what is your idea of a man .

I appreciate what you are saying and - yes - so many different factors go into to making us who we are, from genetics to traumas to pleasures to personal role models to even movie characters or sports heroes. I do not debate it, but rather mention that after wading through all that stuff, this new variable is thrown into the equation. For all I know, I well may NOT have KF syndrome, or the hormone thing may not have been an issue back at the time I was molested, or if it was an issue it may not have had any true effect or influence on events. Those answers won't come in this thread, nor do I expect them to. I only share the realization (for me at least) that the universe is still unfolding itself in enough little pieces every now and then to keep me humble about what I think I know. One of my favorite quotes goes something like this: "I am fairly certain that I know much of what I think I know, and am even more certain I am wrong about something I am sure I know."

That said, I felt like a girl during the abuse years - even when I wasn't with my abuser. Has anyone else experienced those feelings? It's hard to explain, but I never saw myself as tough or strong or big or macho as much as I desperately wanted to be so. I was convinced people saw me as effeminate despite acting the role of what I imagined a real man was supposed to be. And so I inhabited my childhood as little as I could - preferring fantasy instead. Most of it was spent trying to be someone I was not. My life was little snippets of humiliation, shame, secrets and self-reproach, floating in a sea of day dreams.

Quote:
...my thirst to be a better man...

Perhaps because I never could see myself as a man - or maybe because I never knew what being a "man" really meant - I settled for just being a good person. It seems to be working fine so far.
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#421181 - 01/05/13 10:44 PM * [Re: Chase Eric]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
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Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/29/13 01:51 PM)

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#421183 - 01/05/13 10:57 PM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Chase Eric]
Jude Offline


Registered: 08/09/12
Posts: 1513
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: Chase Eric
Jude started a thread in the Gay/Transgendered section and I am bringing it here to the general forum. I hope that's OK and isn't a form of hijacking,


Eric,

No hijacking here...just go with it, its a good topic.

Jude
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#421191 - 01/05/13 11:38 PM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: nltsaved]
CloudyFalls Offline
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Originally Posted By: nltsaved
So if you are raised by a female with no male in the hone you will inevitably have more feminine qualities about yourself like it or not . The same for a female raised by a male.

That is why the 2 parent home is vital there must be a balance. But in todays society this is almost unheard of and we are all paying the consequences .


This offends me as a gay male or rather concerns me. What do you think will happen to a child who is raised by two men or two women? Much of what "men" and "women" are is just stereotypes that have almost nothing to do with our biological makeup. Men can wear make-up and love theater just like women can have short hair and love sports. I can't stand constricting stereotypes like this. The only difference between men and women is biological and how their anatomy affects their psychology or the outcome of that person as a whole has nothing to do with whether or not they're "raised correctly" to BE a man or a woman. You are BORN a man or a woman, not raised to be a man or woman.

I think this is why this question was posed in the "Gay/Bi/Trans Survivors" section. As to avoid the stereotypical straight man descriptions that have been pounded into our brains our whole lives. And when we don't meet these specific qualities somehow we feel like we're "less of a man" or more importantly less of a person. This is a serious and real question to people questioning their gender, ie transgendered people, ie the "Trans Survivors" section. Of which I have posed this question to myself, and it is not an easy question to answer BECAUSE of how many things relating to gender actually have nothing to do with gender.

Originally Posted By: Chase Eric

That said, I felt like a girl during the abuse years - even when I wasn't with my abuser. Has anyone else experienced those feelings? It's hard to explain, but I never saw myself as tough or strong or big or macho as much as I desperately wanted to be so. I was convinced people saw me as effeminate despite acting the role of what I imagined a real man was supposed to be. And so I inhabited my childhood as little as I could - preferring fantasy instead. Most of it was spent trying to be someone I was not. My life was little snippets of humiliation, shame, secrets and self-reproach, floating in a sea of day dreams.


Yes I can relate to you. I never ever felt like a man (or boy) growing up, and to this day when I hear "Man" the first thing I think is, well that's just not me. I used to look in the mirror and wonder why don't I feel like a man? It causes me great confusion, I want to know why I feel this way. Is it because I'm gay? Is it because I could possibly be transgendered? Is it because I was born this way or something is causing it biologically? And why does it bother me? It's all a part of finding out who I really am. But most importantly knowing whatever it is, there's nothing wrong with not fitting the "normal" stereotype.


Edited by CloudyFalls (01/05/13 11:56 PM)
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#421201 - 01/06/13 12:45 AM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: CloudyFalls]
nltsaved Offline


Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 842
Loc: Kc,Mo



Edited by nltsaved (01/06/13 04:03 AM)
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TRIGGER WARNING
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you are not alone never were
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#421202 - 01/06/13 01:00 AM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: nltsaved]
CloudyFalls Offline
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Registered: 07/18/12
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Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: nltsaved
There will be no apology because this is an opinion you do not have to like it you do not have to agree with it .

You believe what you want and i will believe what i want .
I stand by what i believe just as you can do as well.

I will not debate because it is not going to go anywhere it will only cause anger and reply's that go on and on and are not productive . This my friend is going down the proverbial "rabbit hole" it can take you many places . Does this mean you have to agree with it no .

This is a place that allows people to voice there thought get offended go ahead that was not the intention. Every one gets offended over the littlest shit now a days frankly i am sick of it .

I really wanted to go to a different place with my OPINION involving God but sens there are so many dam sensitive people that just can not handle the thought of someone voicing their OPINIONS and views with out acting like childish men I left it alone because of the inevitable backlash. WE are all human we are all raised in one way or another it effects how we think of ourselves and others . So what ever get all sensitive and claim fowl play or what ever it is you want to claim i am .

A stereo typer person who bashes gays or has a skewed view of life because i have an opinion that is not the same as yours.

I will apologize for being so blunt and honest You just happen to be the straw that broke the camels back .

I am just sick of people being weak minded and can not handle someone else s views or opinions . Instead of just disagreeing with the subject matter in a respectful way they have to label people and call names and on and on.

The reason Most people are offended is because they are weak . If it is not true for them it should not effect them . They should be able to see it for what it is to them . If it is not true for them what the hell is the problem

My pastor told me that and it stuck if you are offended you are the weak one you are the problem you are giving people to much power over your life . It offends you because you have something to work on in your life that is not worked out . Or you do not want to face the reality of the offense. Ask yourself why am i offended is it worth the time and energy and effort or the stress.

This just happens to be my view on offenses . It usually tears up relationships and it takes people to ugly places because they let the offense literately take over their lives .

I like you CloudyFalls Do not let this destroy your view of me anyone on here knows I am never trying to offend anyone . I always try to give honest input and if that offends it is never the intention . I give the best advice I can give no one says you are forced to take it or like it .

HOW ABOUT WE JUST AGREE TO DISAGREE

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT ?????


I won't hold it against you, and I'll let bygones be bygones. You're right our beliefs are just two different beliefs and while you took some jabs at me, I'll make none at you. And you make it damn well hard not to make a rebuttal, but since you brought up the idea of weakness, I will say I am much stronger than you will ever comprehend, and I say that with 100% confidence in myself.
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#421204 - 01/06/13 01:09 AM * [Re: nltsaved]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
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Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/29/13 01:52 PM)

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#421206 - 01/06/13 01:22 AM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Chase Eric]
SoccerStar Offline
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I thought this website exists precisely because we are offended. And not weak for it.


Edited by SoccerStar (01/06/13 01:34 AM)
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#421216 - 01/06/13 02:23 AM * [Re: Chase Eric]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
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Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/29/13 01:53 PM)

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#421232 - 01/06/13 09:03 AM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Chase Eric]
SamV Offline
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Registered: 12/13/09
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Loc: Talladega, Alabama, USA
This topic focuses on us, the survivor, as advertising for abuse because he was too feminine, raised in a one parent house or identified as one gender or another. These are all fine points that have value in understanding the internal workings of our thoughts and feelings, but in my opinion, does not address the issue. Whether we advertise as a male or female with some or all the accouterments is not what caused the abuse.

We were attacked because of poor personal boundaries and willful predatory activities. These people, I say that tongue-in-cheek, have perpetrated dominative abuse, felonious stampeding over our God and man mandated right to safety, comfort and dare I say, encouragement. Abuse happens because these people had an opportunity to relive their own abuse history, because they wanted to try something, because their peers told them, because they felt it was right for them to abuse or whatever their motivation. This abuse, was done TO us, whether we wore short shorts or a suit of armor. They saw in us an opportunity and instead of being shocked about those thoughts and getting help like we have, they took advantage of and severely handicapped innocent, caring, naive children and young men. They accosted, they abused, they absconded, they attacked us.

Our little, uncertain selves at 7 or 27, our features, our manner of communication, how we dressed and walked are not to be ashamed of or counted as a weakness. Uncertain people need support and encouragement, praise for success and celebration for victories.
We were abused because of their predilection for their CRIMINAL intentions to satiate cravings that created this harm.

Fellow survivors, continue to find ways to prevent abuse and keep safe, but realize that these people were not encouraged to abuse us, rather that they had opportunity and took it. Were we surrounded by loving, supportive, protecting people, be them true friends, siblings, parent or parents, teachers, police or co workers we would not have been taken advantage of and abused. This trauma in our life was not created or sustained by us, we were just innocents that were took in by a dominant, overwhelming force.
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#421265 - 01/06/13 03:24 PM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Chase Eric]
Chase Eric Offline
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Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1308
This thread has taken an unexpected turn, but interestingly enough still goes back to the question "what makes a man?".

Originally Posted By: ntlsaved
...a female can Not raise a boy to be a man regardless what people say.

Hmmm. So let's see then - Bill Clinton is not a man. Neither is Barack Obama. Or Jack Nicholson. Or that little wimp Alex "A-Rod" Rodriguez. Or Samuel L. Jackson. Or Laird Hamilton (I'm a surfer - what can I say smile ). Or Jon Stewart. Or Jay-Z. I'll stop here because quite frankly I could fill a page with exceptions to your rule.

I respect what you have to contribute, ntlsaved, and appreciate the good in many of the things you say. But I admit cringing when I read this. As much as I don't like to see ANYONE taken to task over what they say here, absolute statements like that tend to be lightening rods and are almost guaranteed to push buttons. So you probably shouldn't be surprised at the backlash. Many of us here have dealt with similar judgmental proclamations and you don't have to look very far to see what I mean. And as far as same-sex parenting, the gay couple I know in my own neighborhood have raised two terrific boys (who are both heterosexual - not good nor bad but certainly dispels another myth from a similar line of conservative reasoning). I suspect they will ultimately emerge with far less dysfunction than I did from my own very loving - yet conventional - parents.

Originally Posted By: Gary
This traditional family crap needs to go. Many survivors came from so-called traditional families and were in many cases abused by the very people who were supposed to be teaching them proper gender whatever. We do great harm by perpetuating outdated stereotypes that are easily refuted by countless studies and simply by looking around and observing with our own eyes.

That entire post, Gary, strikes a solid harmonic with my own thoughts. And I suspect that many of the agents promoting those traditional tenets in the most conservative organizations - from the Catholic Church to the Boy Scouts of America - have collectively visited more harm on children than single or same-sex parents ever have. Furthermore, in a level of hypocrisy I still cannot get my thoughts around, these same organizations protect and essentially perpetrate the criminality within their ranks while attacking single and same-sex parenting as a greater evil.

Meanwhile, back on topic...

Originally Posted By: Sam
This trauma in our life was not created or sustained by us, we were just innocents that were took in by a dominant, overwhelming force.

Thank you so much for this, Sam. I look back and, yes, I know this. I wish I knew it back when it all happened.

Originally Posted By: Me! smile
I felt like a girl during the abuse years

I suppose it makes more sense to say I felt "girlish". I didn't sit around thinking I was truly a girl, but I certainly felt like a magnet for more mature males, certainly a fear well founded on established precedence. My abuser made no secret that he liked my soft skin, delicate build, curved back, and "cute bottom" - really all the things you'd associate with girls instead of guys. I was the boy he picked among a LOT of 7-8 year old girls - I suppose it's no wonder I felt like just another girl. And all through the abuse, even though I knew he was wrong, I was absolutely convinced I was just as wrong for somehow enticing him. I can't begin to say how deeply these feelings have infiltrated every aspect of my life. Even today, if someone does something mean or unfair to me, I always look first to myself for fixing blame: What did I do to bring that on? Is that not messed up or what? My abuser - God I should just finally say his name! - took away all the tools I needed to define myself as a MAN in this world. He took away my manhood simply by making me feel convinced I was girlish - engaged me in the kind of sexual interplay that defined me in that role in the most intimate and physical sense, made me own the responses I was powerless to control or even understand, and then blamed me for the physical enticement he was simply unable to resist.

Yes - I know now that it is not the hair or the brawny build that defines a man - although if you asked little Eirik, he'd argue that. And I wouldn't blame him. But I'm an adult now. I look back at it all and see that my abuser was not the man that I was. Yeah, I get that. He was weak, he lacked any inner strength to stem the tide of his sexual desires. And I was navigating this labyrinth alone, all while trying my best to protect the girls including my little sister, and trying to keep unfathomable secrets - thinking I was saving the sensibilities of the neighborhood, saving our very hides. I get it all, now. Yet the role I was forced to play has worn deep grooves in my heart and they won't go away. They don't heal or fill in as you get older - they just stay there. Every time I try to drive out of those ruts I cannot - despite the traction I would expect my adult insights to give me.


Edited by Chase Eric (01/06/13 03:54 PM)
Edit Reason: Removed the name of my abuser - his other victims may not appreciate it
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#421268 - 01/06/13 03:36 PM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Chase Eric]
Magellan Offline
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Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1402
Loc: California
I'll add my support to the notion that it was the failings of our guardians that made us prey to the predators that abused us.

I know for a fact that if my mom and dad had loved me the way I needed to be loved, and included me in their lives, and participated in my life, that I would not have fallen into the arms of my cousin 5 years older - because I sought the love and attention that he gave me that my parents would not.

And nltsaved - you stepped in it again, I see. Please be careful with your declarative, bold statements that have no bearing on the rest of our experiences and lives. History is replete with "non traditional" families, the "nuclear/traditional" is a recent invention, less than 70 years old.

As for "what makes a man"? Here's my 2 cents - Humans are the most adaptable species on the planet, capable of inventing and creating nearly anything we desire. As a result, this notion of "man" (aside from the biological) can be left for us to invent for ourselves.

There is no "normal" when the potential for variation and creativity is taken into account.

Each of us is uniquely different, and perhaps some day, humanity will see that attempting to shove people into boxes with labels has been a very detrimental undertaking, and has not resulted in anything beneficial; .. has it?

It is the people who break the molds; who step outside of the boxes and labels imposed on them that change history, and alter the evolutionary course of humankind.

D

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#421290 - 01/06/13 07:01 PM * [Re: Chase Eric]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
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Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/29/13 01:54 PM)

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#421293 - 01/06/13 07:26 PM * [Re: Magellan]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
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Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/29/13 01:54 PM)

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#421324 - 01/06/13 11:56 PM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Chase Eric]
nltsaved Offline


Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 842
Loc: Kc,Mo
Don't really care if you guys agree with me or not . If you do not want an OPINION
Than do not ask for it . I can make what ever statement i want Period .


There's so much more would love to say but it will only cause drama
But I will say I do not voice my opinion on topics that I know will cause drama
Such as a two parent gay household or gay marriage or any of that
Those are topics I will stay away from
but in general all I try to do is give my honest opinion
no one said you had to like it
so as far as saying try not to talk about this or that is absurd.

I guess as long as everyone agrees with one another it is okay
But boy do not let someone's opinion that you do not agree with
Come into the topic of discussion then all rights of freedom of speech go out the window

So whatever I will agree to disagree

I almost forgot about the comment a female cannot raise a boy into a man

Did you seriously believe that I was talking a bout it not being a possibility
Because clearly females do raise boys and they do become grown
All I was trying to convey is their mentality will be different
The same as if a man raises a female
They would probably be more into sports or do more manly type things this argument is completely asinine. If you want to get that damn detailed into stuff
giving a list off names of all men who have been raised by a female is completely
Unnecessary I did not know I would have to explain every piece of this opinion
But I guess if it would've been in line with everybody else's thinking
it would be okay




Edited by nltsaved (01/07/13 12:04 AM)
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-uYCAfpxrY
TRIGGER WARNING
Video of me telling my story
you are not alone never were
WRITTEN FORM
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Why i hate Religion but love Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY

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#421329 - 01/07/13 12:25 AM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Chase Eric]
Magellan Offline
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Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1402
Loc: California
There's a saying among us filmmakers - "Don't insult your audience".

IE: If you know the stove is hot, then don't touch it.

D
_________________________
It's a heroes journey, and you are the hero.

Loving Kindness Meditation will dramatically improve your spirits; give it a try for just 3 days: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz7cpV7ERsM

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#421334 - 01/07/13 12:38 AM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Chase Eric]
nltsaved Offline


Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 842
Loc: Kc,Mo
And this yo your list

"Don't ask for an opinion if you do not want feed back "
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-uYCAfpxrY
TRIGGER WARNING
Video of me telling my story
you are not alone never were
WRITTEN FORM
http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=339159#Post339159
Why i hate Religion but love Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY

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#421336 - 01/07/13 12:42 AM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Chase Eric]
Magellan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1402
Loc: California
Just consider who you're talking to, dude.

You *know* there are sensitive people here, and you *know* some of your comments can and have incited anger. You acknowledged it in previous posts, its happened numerous times, and yet you do it anyway ... and then complain it happened again. You're never going to make folks less sensitive. You're going to have to accept it as a reality of life.

Stop touching the hot stove. That's all I'm saying.
_________________________
It's a heroes journey, and you are the hero.

Loving Kindness Meditation will dramatically improve your spirits; give it a try for just 3 days: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz7cpV7ERsM

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#421351 - 01/07/13 03:05 AM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: nltsaved]
crazy gecko Offline


Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 309
Originally Posted By: nltsaved
The same goes for a man can Not raise a female to be woman

No. I refuse to be judged an inadequate parent, without any proof, simply because my daughter's mom died. Sure, I cannot be a female role-model, but my daughter comes into contact with enough adult females in her day-to-day life to fill that void. I am not bringing her up in isolation. She does not lack female role-models.

I'm betting I can do a lot better than many two-parent families, simply because it is the most important thing in my life. And I will not let you, or anyone else, make me feel inadequate. Ever. I'm done with letting other people dictate what I am able or unable to do. mad
_________________________
I guess what I'm trying to say
Is whose life is it anyway because livin'
Living is the best revenge
You can play
-- Def Leppard

My Story, Part 2

My blog

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#421353 - 01/07/13 03:13 AM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Magellan]
nltsaved Offline


Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 842
Loc: Kc,Mo

So when you say stop touching the hot stove you mean i should have a magical crystal ball to be able to tell who is going to be offended
or triggered . This is why it is called an opinion . I honestly did not try to push anyone's buttons I did not try to offend anyone . So by saying
stop touching the hot stove you are Assuming that I know what topics to stay away from.
I do have an idea of topics to stay away from . No one is perfect when i do offend i man up and admit it .

Trust me i have held my tongue many a times
wanting to just put it out there on some of Your threads .

I no you will not be able to handle the comments so I just say nothing at all. If there ever was a stove i no not to touch it is yours .

And knowing that I say nothing ,so really there is no way of knowing
when someone ask for your opinion and you give it
that it is going to offend someone because everyone is in a different place .
But one needs to understand that people have different views they have different opinions and if they do not want to here them they should not ask for them .

I am just so frustrated by the fact that when people do not like what you have to say people start piling on .When I disagree I just move on from the thread because I know i just disagree with it does not have to turn into a war.

When someone ask for an opinion than when one is given and someone does not agree with it they freak out .The original thread starter
said
Quote:
"I appreciate what you are saying"
that is good enough for me,only after people started boo hooing than the whole thread changed to a
different tone .
Than he started to unleash his own offenses . In the beginning he held them back if he was offended , this is the approach i take
i just back off even if i feel differently I keep it respectful . But when people start calling me out and saying i am this or that than i finally
snapped and lost it . That i admit .

I gave so many opportunities for open interpretation after the question was asked . So which is it that I am suppose to magically know what topic is so hot?

I gave NUMEROUS opportunities for one to come to their OWN conclusions


Quote:
"The question is really what do you as a man want to look like ?"


Quote:
"Cause everyone has their own ideal of what that is"

"So i ask again what is your idea of a man"


"We are all structured or conditioned to a point by our upbringing"


"A lot of it is perception who do you want to see yourself as a man ?"

"What does the ideal man to you look like ?"

"Like i said there is an element of choice in the matter"



AND THE KICKER

Quote:
"Really it boils down to your own desire to live the way you want to live"


So that being said I just do not care to go into these silly little back and fourth sessions worrying about peoples opinions when the thread gave permission

Quote:
but his points are really important not just for the gay members but for EVERYONE

Quote:

The question is simple: What makes a man? There are many answers of COURSE, at MANY levels.



So I guess my levels are not included

get my point ?

Now maybe this thread can go back to the original question

I hope the next guy that answers is included in EVERYONE
And is allowed to give his different LEVELS of interpretation
without being piled on

peace I am out
I will go back to the spirituality forum were I usually dwell at
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-uYCAfpxrY
TRIGGER WARNING
Video of me telling my story
you are not alone never were
WRITTEN FORM
http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=339159#Post339159
Why i hate Religion but love Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY

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#421360 - 01/07/13 05:45 AM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Chase Eric]
SamV Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5942
Loc: Talladega, Alabama, USA
Lets take a step back gentlemen. We are all survivors who need support and forgiveness for our idealisms.
_________________________
MaleSurvivor Moderator Emeritus 2012 - 2014

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#421386 - 01/07/13 10:37 AM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Chase Eric]
traveler Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3377
Loc: somewhere in Africa
i've been following this thread with interest and finally was able to put words to what i think. thanks to all who contributed. your input has helped me work out my own stand on the issue.

What is a Man?

This question has puzzled me for some time.

It obviously has more than one meaning – or at least has several connotations. And it has to be more than just having a penis and testicles and having completed puberty. Many boys have the equipment and ability to impregnate a female and reproduce – but few people would call them "men" in the full sense of the word at 13-17. I was sexually mature at 11 or 12 but far from being a man. Legally – 18 is the dividing line in many countries – and some males do seem to be mature in more than the physical sense at that age – but it is probably a small percentage – especially in western developed cultures. As young people have easier lives and more comforts, leisure and wealth, it seems that their maturity level seems to decrease even as their physical and sexual maturation occurs earlier. A Jewish boy is apparently called a “man” at about 13 when he has his bar mitzvah – but that is a spiritual or ethical designation – not a physical or character description. However, I think that each of these aspects needs to be considered and combined in our definition – sexual/physical maturity, legal responsibility, spiritual/ethical/character maturity.

So far, little of that description follows the stereotypical image of the macho man. It doesn’t seem to be about big biceps, a bulging basket, a hairy chest, stiff upper lip, steely unflinching eyes, a square set jaw, strong, silent demeanor, a fighting attitude, sports prowess, owning enviable guns and cars, indulging an insatiable sex drive or a Don Juan playboy lifestyle. But those are the things that our popular culture, the entertainment media, and the advertising industry have brainwashed us into buying into. The most up-to-date version would probly include, “rich, powerful,influential and owning all the best of the latest electronic gimicks” as well.

Now for the personal spin:
The step-father was the first role model – and also the first abuser - in my life. He fit quite a few of the stereotypical macho man traits – hairy, unemotional, non-communicative, physically strong, independent, loved sports and cars and tools, active and violent. A “self-made man,” he had “pulled himself up by his own bootstraps” and become a successful executive, without benefit of a college education. He was cruel and angry and I feared and despised him. He feminized me by his demeaning, emasculating treatment, forced me to be “mommy’s little helper” and perform many household chores that in those days were considered “women’s work,” and then called me names like “sissy, girly and queer” - for being what he had created. I wanted to be nothing like him. I knew from a very early age what mature male genitals looked like. When puberty started to happen to me – at too early an age – I did not want to be like him in that way either. I wonder now if that reluctance and resistance to my own development might have made me act and appear less masculine to others. I shied away from the typical male activities that I could never perform at a skill level that satisfied him – sports, mechanics, science. instead i spent my time improving my art, acting, writing and reading. Thus – I became even more extremely the opposite of him – and in his eyes – and therefore in mine – I was even less of a man.

When other abusers – the jock bullies at school and scouts - impacted my life and self-image, surprisingly, I experienced a reversal of feelings. I now struggle to understand why that was. I felt the same humiliation and conflict and degradation. But this time I wanted to be like them. I almost wanted to be them. They, too, were stereotypical macho “role models:” sports stars, muscular, confident, self-centered and tough. But I saw them as admirable and desirable. So why the difference? They were certainly younger, more handsome, popular and admired than the step-dad. But they had many of the traits that I hated in the him: disregard for others’ feelings, shallowness, dominance and a craving for power and control. All of these – both the positive and the negative – were diametrically opposite to me. I started to consciously imitate some of the outward traits that I found more masculine in them – tones and patterns of speech, gestures, styles of moving and walking. But I was selective; I kept my own ways of thinking and feeling.

Now that I am analyzing it all – I have come to a conclusion – that the stereotypical macho “manly” set of values and characteristics are not ones that I find even the slightest bit valuable or desirable. I cherish a whole different menu of traits to define my ideal of MAN: integrity, faithfulness to ones’ ideals, moral courage, responsibility, humility, dependability, sincerity, honesty, inter-dependency, empathy, compassion, self-sacrifice, a strong drive for justice and a desire to protect the weak and oppressed.

I was a failure at meeting the step-dad’s and society’s definition of manhood. at this point in my life - i don't give rip for that. i am finished with their lies. I may not totally achieve my own ideals either – but at least the effort will be more worthwhile. It reminds me of the code of chivalry of King Arthur’s knights or of the “Impossible Dream” of Don Quixote.

And that’s how I see it.
Lee
_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


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#421390 - 01/07/13 11:09 AM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Chase Eric]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1308
As the starter of this thread, I think it appropriate for me to express support for Sam's suggestion to "take a step back," not to mention that Sam is a moderator - so it is within the whole of proper form to heed that advice.

It is clear which side of this side-tracked argument everyone is on. It is equally clear no one is going to "win" it. I learn something from everyone here. I learn a lot even from those I disagree with - but only when my curiosity is stronger than my sensibility.

Gentlemen, the topic at hand as described in the original post to this thread is still open for discussion. It's not an easy thing to discuss, and I really appreciate the many sensitive insights offered. It feels good to be back here once again, sharing things with you I could never even bring to my partner. Each and every one of you who responded I consider a friend.
_________________________



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#421391 - 01/07/13 11:45 AM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Chase Eric]
Mountainous Buck Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/15/09
Posts: 1626
Loc: Minnesota
Good parenting makes a man.

Healhy Rites of passage make a man.

Support and nurturing make a man.

A boy will grow into adulthood regardless of these things- but a man learns from others and hopefully has the benefit of good role models, teachers, and mentors throughout his life. These are people who show emotional honesty, safety, and numerous other good values.

I did a powerful men's training several years ago designed to follow tradition rites of initiation our cultures used to bring boys into manhood. It was safe, affirming, challenging and helped me grow in ways my upbringing never did. It gave me tools to navigate my emotional world. I learned to Be vulnerable around other men who are safe and nurturing- regardless of our differences (political, social, sexual).

Men learn by doing. We are wired differently than women and need to be working on good wiring our whole lives - there is no strict definition of what makes a man.

I know I no longer feel like a boy because if the work I've done-
that is my wish for everyone here.

I can help and not hurt others - I affirm life and hope and love.
_________________________
We have to take responsibility for what we're not responsible for.

“It doesn't matter where you've come from,
It matters where you go" Frank Turner

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#421454 - 01/08/13 12:30 AM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Chase Eric]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6401
Loc: 2.5 NATO Nations
Originally Posted By: Chase Eric
The implications of this - IF in fact it is KF - seem huge. Could one be genetically predisposed to abuse? Is that a topic that has ever been addressed here? Could I have been sending out hormonal signals back then? I'm not really freaking about this, but damn - it seems any time I think I find insights and perspective, I suddenly learn just how deep this rabbit hole goes.


Responding to THIS only: I read the initial post nearly more as "why are some chosen?" Minutes before reading this however, I wrote the following to my T, as I have had realizations that morph or challenge the "it was not your fault" doctrine:

This world looks at complaining as a sin; both secular and biblical. I feel so very wrong in expressing any of it any longer. people of character dont talk about their stuff. there's no way to magically shape or paint a mass of evil into something other than what it is, and people don't want to know.

There is a certain truth to "it being my fault." If you take a heard of zebras, the lions make a choice. Even for the lions there is a choice. They choose one. That "one" has attributes that drives the fateful selection. He's weak, slow, looks unique, stupid, naive...too stupid to survive...he's different from the balance of the heard. The kill may not be the decisiosn of the chosen zebra, but the reasons he is chosen are fully his to own. He did not decide to have a weak leg, or ugly stripes or a weak brain...but they are his legs, stripes and brain.

And the chosen zebra does not rise from the dead and give a fkg TV interview to the Animal Planet cameras. He has the good taste to stay down and rot quietly. No one wants to see a rotten carcass walking around the normal zebras, and they don't want to hear what he has to say. They don't want to hear complaints about the lions devouring me.


Sorry if its too off topic. I just saw the "why chosen" parallel.
_________________________
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The Aftermath Video

The Water Buffalo Song

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#421481 - 01/08/13 08:42 AM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Chase Eric]
SoccerStar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 915
Loc: New York
There are a lot of zebras still walking around alive with big claw marks on their asses.
_________________________
My story

"Don't think it hasn't been a little slice of heaven just because it hasn't!" --Bugs Bunny

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#421483 - 01/08/13 09:01 AM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Chase Eric]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6401
Loc: 2.5 NATO Nations
I'm sorry if anyone interprets this as a slam on any of us who talk about their stuff. HERE, we can vent, describe, talk, think out-loud, on and on and on, and it is fully acceptable. Also above, I am not literally slamming our badly needed vents and essays. I'm just trying to illustrate what I see as a reality in our "public relations."

I'm of the school that "no one gives a flip" about what happened to us "back then." They see what I do as unbecoming (going public to call-out the bad-guys) and breaking the myths where possible.

In reading what draws the lion to the chosen zebra is said to not be physical appearance, like "wow...nice zebra..." Rather its first and foremost conditions of opportunity.


Edited by Still (01/08/13 09:05 AM)
_________________________
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The Aftermath Video

The Water Buffalo Song

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#421510 - 01/08/13 12:06 PM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Still]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1308
Originally Posted By: Still
I'm sorry if anyone interprets this as a slam on any of us who talk about their stuff.

Certainly not taken as that. But the zebra analogy is an interesting one. The truth to that - if there is one - rests in heads other than our own. We can all go back and forth with our own hypotheses but in the end, the answers are beyond us. I can only guess why my own "big brother" molested me. And while I'm quite sure there was a powerful elixir of sexual attraction, many truths are not as simple as we imagine them to be.

That is precisely why I want to talk with him. It is my next project - to confront him and ask him why. To judge for myself the veracity of his answers. He was a confused, misguided young man. He may have had less control over how sick he was than I might have thought. So I'm not interested in rubbing his face in it. I only want to know why. He can never repay what he did to me and my sister and the whole collective of little girls who are now grown women, likely still dealing with the secrets and shame he visited upon them. Nothing he can do will ever erase that, but his head still floats an entire half of the memories of an albeit one-way sexual "relationship" we had - with thoughts and perspectives that he has never shared.

He made me his "girlfriend?" Well then he owes me a part of his soul. And I intend to collect.
_________________________



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#421514 - 01/08/13 12:36 PM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Chase Eric]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6401
Loc: 2.5 NATO Nations
Originally Posted By: Chase Eric
It is my next project - to confront him and ask him why.


This is strange timing for me...that you are bringing this up now. I've been stuck in "how dare they?!!" Better put: "HOW FKG DARE THEY??? HOW DARE YOU DO THAT TO ME!?!?!"

I've openly forgiven them, but I still want to ask them that. I NEED to know. I NEED to know in the worst way!

I've not confronted the older boys yet. They are the ones. I want to talk to them and ask them SO many questions and let them know I'm here and I have not forgotten. Time did not save them from memory or God's view. I NEED to tell them that being 12-18yrs-old was not an excuse. My silence ought not ever be interpreted as an acquittal. That they are damned if they don't repent and ask God for forgiveness --- weather they believe in him or not, I get to proclaim MY deal. I get to hold them accountable! I get to review, judge and forgive.

Given the evil I saw first-hand with Dean, John, Mark and Jeffrey, I can guess that any still alive will be slain by a proclamation of forgiveness.

And after I tell them I forgive them, wish them well (yes, wish them well), I can turn my back on them and walk away...never to hold them in any contempt again.

I don't envy you with this project, but I truly hope you can derive everything you need and more.
_________________________
Wishing You Were Here!

The Aftermath Video

The Water Buffalo Song

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#421516 - 01/08/13 12:53 PM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Still]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1308
Originally Posted By: Still
...I can guess that any still alive will be slain by a proclamation of forgiveness.

Having just seen the movie Les Mis, this is uncanny. Valjean's ultimate strength was his ability to forgive, and Javert's downfall was his inability to do so. I saw the story as a battle between forgiveness and intransigence. A similar theme was echoed in Schindler's List, where Oscar Schindler tells Goeth that while killing and beating Jews is great sport and feeds the sense of power, the ultimate power was when "we have every justification to kill, and yet we forgive. THAT'S power."

It's an under-rated realization that we are truly our own harshest judges. I don't need to condemn or castigate my abuser - all I need is to show him that I have never forgotten - that my sister has never forgotten - that so many women have almost certainly never forgotten. I am quite convinced that his conscience is a more powerful and less forgiving judge than I could ever be. If it is not, then nothing I say would matter anyways.
_________________________



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#421517 - 01/08/13 12:57 PM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Chase Eric]
Jude Offline


Registered: 08/09/12
Posts: 1513
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: Chase Eric
Jude started a thread in the Gay/Transgendered section and I am bringing it here to the general forum. I hope that's OK and isn't a form of hijacking,


Whoa! I haven't looked at this thread for a while and now it HAS been hijacked. Lets get back to the point gentlemen....What makes a Man? What definition can we make that is both inclusive and accurate? Here are a few possibilities:

"I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.-Vince Lombardi

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

"I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom." -George S. Patton

"The value of a man should be seen in what he gives and not in what he is able to receive." -Albert Einstein

"God gave men both a penis and a brain, but unfortunately not enough blood supply to run both at the same time." -Robin Williams (Just for laughs)
_________________________
I went back to the doctor
To get another shrink.
I sit and tell him about my weekend,
But he never betrays what he thinks.
Can you see the real me, doctor?.
The Who

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#421550 - 01/08/13 06:15 PM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Chase Eric]
bodyguard8367 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1159
Loc: ""
""


Edited by bodyguard8367 (02/26/14 08:47 PM)
Edit Reason: SILENCED

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#421562 - 01/08/13 07:50 PM * [Re: traveler]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 2217
*


Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/29/13 01:58 PM)

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#421570 - 01/08/13 08:22 PM * [Re: Chase Eric]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 2217
*


Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/29/13 01:58 PM)

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#421646 - 01/09/13 11:09 AM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Chase Eric]
Jude Offline


Registered: 08/09/12
Posts: 1513
Loc: New England
Another quote I found: "Try not to become a man of success, but rather try to become a man of value." -Albert Einstein
_________________________
I went back to the doctor
To get another shrink.
I sit and tell him about my weekend,
But he never betrays what he thinks.
Can you see the real me, doctor?.
The Who

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#421658 - 01/09/13 03:43 PM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Jude]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1308
Originally Posted By: Jude
Another quote I found: "Try not to become a man of success, but rather try to become a man of value." -Albert Einstein

I have always considered the former to be a measure of the latter.
_________________________



Click my pic to see why I'm here

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#421701 - 01/09/13 09:22 PM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Chase Eric]
nltsaved Offline


Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 842
Loc: Kc,Mo
I love it
Originally Posted By: Jude
Another quote I found: "Try not to become a man of success, but rather try to become a man of value." -Albert Einstein
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-uYCAfpxrY
TRIGGER WARNING
Video of me telling my story
you are not alone never were
WRITTEN FORM
http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=339159#Post339159
Why i hate Religion but love Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY

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#421743 - 01/10/13 03:32 AM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Chase Eric]
Jude Offline


Registered: 08/09/12
Posts: 1513
Loc: New England

"It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men."-Frederick Douglass
_________________________
I went back to the doctor
To get another shrink.
I sit and tell him about my weekend,
But he never betrays what he thinks.
Can you see the real me, doctor?.
The Who

Top
#421747 - 01/10/13 07:38 AM Re: What Makes a Man? New insights on a "nancy" boy... [Re: Chase Eric]
jay75 Offline


Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 145
Jude,

That quote hit the nail on the head!!!!!!!!!!
Im finding that it may be impossible to fix a broken man.

-Jay-
_________________________
"Those are not your sins" A wise man

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