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#419648 - 12/20/12 12:28 PM Pope calls CP "normal"
cant_remember Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 997
OK,

I hesitated to post this because at first I thought it was an Onion headline, but our friend Pope B16 is at it again with his perp apologetics.

These are apparently real (non-joke) quotes from the Pope himself:

“In the 1970s, paedophilia was theorised as something fully in conformity with man and even with children,” the Pope said.

“It was maintained — even within the realm of Catholic theology — that there is no such thing as evil in itself or good in itself. There is only a ‘better than' and a ‘worse than'. Nothing is good or bad in itself.”

“We cannot remain silent about the context of these times in which these events have come to light,” he said, citing the growth of child pornography “that seems in some way to be considered more and more normal by society” he said.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/w...s-15035449.html

Cant
_________________________
Recovery is possible. Hang in there, brothers.

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#419665 - 12/20/12 05:10 PM Re: Pope calls CP "normal" [Re: cant_remember]
cosmos Offline


Registered: 11/12/12
Posts: 173
Loc: Puget Sound
“In the 1970s, paedophilia was theorised as something fully in conformity with man and even with children,”

citing the growth of child pornography “that seems in some way to be considered more and more normal by society”

If you’re a man of religion and not faith please don’t read.

Starting my rant:






What kind of sick twisted monster do you have to be to even think about let alone say publicly this kind of abhorrent tripe? How out of touch do you have to be to think that any adult sexual activity with anyone underage is anything but a devil? I know these demons have no idea what it’s like to be victimized to have every part of them destroyed but it’s also apparent that the pragmatism of their religion and maintaining the status quo is more important than either helping the untold number of victims at the hand of priests or just plain lacking in human empathy; must not be human. How can you say something like this? Really, how can the quote “god on earth”’ say CP is normal now and that pedophilia was ok in the 70’s? Its why religion is the devil; blind obedience; never question authority; must be nice to live in that comfortable world where you don’t know what’s it like to be sodomized for years, where the pope is still a good person, where church is a safe place for your children. Disclosure the only conversation me and my dad ever had about my abuse went something like its “gods will”; I must have said something bad about god then cause I got the beating of my life. It’s funny cause I denied my abuse but it surfaced in weird ways, when I was 6 I told my dad while in church that I hope they all burn down! How can you tell a 4 year old it’s god’s will that you suck dick? Blind ignorance it the biggest problem we have on this planet; imho.

I Love God!!!

Cee
_________________________
"it has never yet been discovered how to make man unknow his knowledge, or unthink his thoughts"

T. Paine

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#419675 - 12/20/12 06:24 PM Re: Pope calls CP "normal" [Re: cant_remember]
cant_remember Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 997
It's not ignorance; it's defiance of basic humanism. The Holy Father knows exactly what he's saying.

Get angrier.

Cant
_________________________
Recovery is possible. Hang in there, brothers.

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#419693 - 12/20/12 08:02 PM Re: Pope calls CP "normal" [Re: cant_remember]
cosmos Offline


Registered: 11/12/12
Posts: 173
Loc: Puget Sound
“Blind ignorance it the biggest problem we have on this planet; imho.”

Sorry if I was confusing, meant to reference the people that follow blindly not for “god on earth”; you know like I knew a guy who was catholic, I mean catholic, had been married for like 8 years and had 7 children, nothing wrong with that but he and his family were really bad off, I can’t imagine trying to feed 7 children on the money he was making; E-5 USN. He loved his wife; but birth control stupid; “not gods plan”.

No words can adequately describe what lacking of basic morality that someone like that has to have. The thing is that his words sound like those of an abuser right? CP is normal now, pedophilia was ok in the 70’s or am I missing something here? He really sounds as if he believes the shit he says, pedo? “god on earth” a pedo? It’s like listening to the monster enabled by the pedo by proxy @Penn state, it just sounds like he felt 0 remorse, like if he had to do it all over again he would? I’ll ask again; “god on earth” a pedo? He just doesn’t sound like just an enabler; does he?

Cee


btw I don’t get angry anymore, not like I used to, I’m finally over that, thank God, like a lot of us here I used it to cover a myriad of other emotions; it does really get better!
_________________________
"it has never yet been discovered how to make man unknow his knowledge, or unthink his thoughts"

T. Paine

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#419700 - 12/20/12 08:45 PM Re: Pope calls CP "normal" [Re: cant_remember]
peroperic2009 Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 3566
Loc: South-East Europe
Saying such disturbing things about pedophilia actually opened my eyes from which circles this person is coming. I would also add that lamenting on such delicate issue as child abuse in such insensitive way can only do emotionally very cold person - that is trait shown by sociopaths and abusers.
There are worlds where cultural values haven't been changed at all related to love, families and kids in last century, but yeah those are warm, emphatic and touching cultures, the ones that are not heard in mass media and that would never consider child pornography as normal.
But church already lost compass in that field on countless examples and far earlier than 1970s, so I would add that we shouldn't lose much energy on such lamenting, it is not worth nor can bring anything valuable. We have to protect ourselves from toxicity no matter from where is coming.
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#419709 - 12/20/12 10:22 PM Re: Pope calls CP "normal" [Re: cant_remember]
cosmos Offline


Registered: 11/12/12
Posts: 173
Loc: Puget Sound
I just see this as someone in power who can influence the ignorant of this world into thinking its ok to be a pedo; how many more children need to suffer? People will rationalize anything, someone on the edge, someone who might never have done anything might read this and think “even god thinks its ok”; that’s why something like this is so heinous. I’ve seen this type of thing in the past politically, “tough love” “kinder & gentler” whatever it’s a form of propaganda, it ruins people’s lives, in this case it promotes the worst kind of behavior of people. We need to be outraged, sorry; this is just abominable propaganda of the worst kind!

Cee
_________________________
"it has never yet been discovered how to make man unknow his knowledge, or unthink his thoughts"

T. Paine

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#419735 - 12/21/12 08:04 AM Re: Pope calls CP "normal" [Re: cant_remember]
cant_remember Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 997
The good news is that we are not alone. The computer hacker collective, Anonymous, has started Operation Vatican.

Visit this link and click the video:

http://www.operationvatican.tk

Cant
_________________________
Recovery is possible. Hang in there, brothers.

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#419736 - 12/21/12 08:08 AM Re: Pope calls CP "normal" [Re: cant_remember]
peroperic2009 Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 3566
Loc: South-East Europe
Thanks Cant,
as Catholic I'm sending my blessing for this Anonymous's initiative.

Pero
_________________________
My story

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#419764 - 12/21/12 02:25 PM Re: Pope calls CP "normal" [Re: cant_remember]
unhappycamper Offline


Registered: 10/21/11
Posts: 575
Loc: VA
Come to think of it, the Pope probably knows a lot about child abusers... but what does he know about "normal"?

John

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#419852 - 12/22/12 02:16 PM Re: Pope calls CP "normal" [Re: cant_remember]
cosmos Offline


Registered: 11/12/12
Posts: 173
Loc: Puget Sound
Pero understand that my grandmother and her sister used to take me and my cousins to mass everyday before she went to work, luckily i was able to leave the church as soon as confirmation. So like i said blind ignorance is the issue not faith in God,how else can we overcome what life has thrown us?

Cee
_________________________
"it has never yet been discovered how to make man unknow his knowledge, or unthink his thoughts"

T. Paine

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#419893 - 12/23/12 03:48 AM Re: Pope calls CP "normal" [Re: cant_remember]
peroperic2009 Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 3566
Loc: South-East Europe
Hey Cee I agree with you completely about blind ignorance, we have our sanity and we have to use it otherwise I don't see purpose in living wink .
_________________________
My story

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#422287 - 01/16/13 06:43 PM Re: Pope calls CP "normal" [Re: cant_remember]
Ninja_Turtle Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/12
Posts: 25
Loc: USA
I understand that you guys are upset, but this article has taken the Pope's words out of context in a way that twists them to the opposite of their meaning.

If you read the address in its entirety, or if you've just followed Benedict on these issues over the years, this is what he is saying:

"Part of the reason that predators got away with crimes inthe past is that there were a lot of people at the time, including Catholics and supposed theologians, who said that nothing is absolutely good or evil, good and evil are relative, etc." He's saying that this is a BAD thing.

His entire papacy and everything he has ever written is in opposition to the idea that good and evil are relative.

People may not believe me, but while there are many corrupt Church officials, Benedict is a shining light among them. Within the limitations of what he can control, he has done more to clean up what he has called the "filth" in the Church than anyone. He was the one that shut down the corrupt Legion of Christ and more or less banished its predator founder Marcel Maciel, he was the one that centralized and made more effective the terribly ineffective system for dealing with accusations that existed under John Paul, and many of the Church figures who have done the best job of responding to the crisis are people who were appointed by him.

A lot of people have reasons to hate the Church's representatives, but don't believe everything that you read. The best way to get to know Benedictis to read his own books and speeches and the various interviews done with him.

If you want alternative takes on the Pope from abuse survivors who have met him, here are two:

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/a...ing-to-victims/

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/abuse_victim_in_malta_pope_benedict_xvi_is_a_saint/

A quote from the second from an abuse survivor who met him in Malta:

“I did not have any faith in priests. Now, after this moving experience, I have hope again. You people in Italy have a saint. Do you realize that? You have a saint,” he said, referring to Pope Benedict XVI.

All the best,

Ninja_Turtle

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#422308 - 01/16/13 09:38 PM Re: Pope calls CP "normal" [Re: cant_remember]
cant_remember Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 997
Ninja,

A few things:

1) Your screen name and avatar are awesome.

2) My story and your story are very *very* similar: no memory of the abuse, but lots of the classic signs of sex-trauma PTSD.

3) I am a cradle Catholic, as I suspect you are, too.

That said, you are wrong to swallow hook-line-and-sinker whatever it is that the Holy Father's PR office is spitting out these days.

It was March 2010, when B16 dismissed allegations of child sex abuse by clergy, saying he would not be "intimidated by the petty gossip of dominant opinion."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/28/pope-benedict-sexual-abuse-scandal

Needless to say, referring to "dominant opinion" implies a "minority opinion" that B16 refuses to publicly denounce.

I don't mean to shut down conversation on this matter, so please feel free to respond -- but I don't think you understand what you're saying. The papacy is rotten.

Cant (but you can call me Splinter)
_________________________
Recovery is possible. Hang in there, brothers.

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#422420 - 01/17/13 06:16 PM Re: Pope calls CP "normal" [Re: cant_remember]
Ninja_Turtle Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/12
Posts: 25
Loc: USA
Splinter,

Thanks for the kind words and for reading my story. I 'm happy that you responded.

Most mainstream media sources will twist anything regarding the Church, as the original article did. This article from the Guardian and the quote from it that you have just posted do the same thing.

The speech that Benedict is giving is from a homily on the gospel for Palm Sunday. He's not referring to the abuse scandal at all. Here's the paragraph that the quote they take is from, which talks about Jesus going up to Jerusalem in the gospel, and which shows the context that he is speaking in. I write it not to promote the religion but just to try to give a fair picture of what he is saying.

"Jesus goes ahead of us, and he goes up to what is above. He leads us to what is great and pure, he leads us to the healthy air of the heights: to life according to truth; to the courage that does not let itself be intimidated by the gossip of dominant opinions; to the patience that stands up for and supports the other. He leads us to availability to the suffering, to the abandoned; to the loyalty that stands with the other even when the situation makes it difficult."
From http://www.zenit.org/article-28783?l=english

What he says is to not let majority opinion intimidate us such that we don't stand up for people who need it, and that we should be available to the suffering and the abandoned. It's a very pro-Male Survivor type of teaching.

If one reads news regarding the Church from the mainstream news sources they will twist it; the reporters have their biases and sensational headlines with brief quotes get a lot more web traffic than long homilies and letters. If you check the original speech or whatever they're talking about it's almost always misrepresented. There're plenty of terrible people in the Church without making it seem worse than it is; it's hard enough to avoid discouragement without overlooking the real rays of hope. The only way to get to know the man is to read his own words without a go-between interpreting it.

I know it's hard to get past the sense of betrayal that comes with being an abuse victim, and I've had my own run-ins with predatory or dishonest clergy, and am generally very distrustful and cynical myself, but the more that I have gotten to know Benedict over the years the more I have found him inspiring. There are many who are not frauds, but they don't get the press.

I'm going to close here with a long quote from a letter that the Pope wrote to the Church in Ireland specifically to address the abuse scandal there. It's the two sections that he addresses #1) to abuse victims and #2) to predator priests and religious. I write this not to promote Catholicism or proselytize but just to try to fairly represent Benedict.

Thanks again. All the best,

Ninja_Turtle

"6. To the victims of abuse and their families

You have suffered grievously and I am truly sorry. I know that nothing can undo the wrong you have endured. Your trust has been betrayed and your dignity has been violated. Many of you found that, when you were courageous enough to speak of what happened to you, no one would listen. Those of you who were abused in residential institutions must have felt that there was no escape from your sufferings. It is understandable that you find it hard to forgive or be reconciled with the Church. In her name, I openly express the shame and remorse that we feel. At the same time, I ask you not to lose hope. It is in the communion of the Church that we encounter the person of Jesus Christ, who was himself a victim of injustice and sin. Like you, he still bears the wounds of his own unjust suffering. He understands the depths of your pain and its enduring effect upon your lives and your relationships, including your relationship with the Church. I know some of you find it difficult even to enter the doors of a church after all that has occurred. Yet Christ’s own wounds, transformed by his redemptive sufferings, are the very means by which the power of evil is broken and we are reborn to life and hope. I believe deeply in the healing power of his self-sacrificing love – even in the darkest and most hopeless situations – to bring liberation and the promise of a new beginning.

Speaking to you as a pastor concerned for the good of all God’s children, I humbly ask you to consider what I have said. I pray that, by drawing nearer to Christ and by participating in the life of his Church – a Church purified by penance and renewed in pastoral charity – you will come to rediscover Christ’s infinite love for each one of you. I am confident that in this way you will be able to find reconciliation, deep inner healing and peace.

7. To priests and religious who have abused children

You betrayed the trust that was placed in you by innocent young people and their parents, and you must answer for it before Almighty God and before properly constituted tribunals. You have forfeited the esteem of the people and brought shame and dishonour upon your brothers. Those of you who are priests violated the sanctity of the sacrament of Holy Orders in which Christ makes himself present in us and in our actions. Together with the immense harm done to victims, great damage has been done to the Church and to the public perception of the priesthood and religious life.

I urge you to examine your conscience, take responsibility for the sins you have committed, and humbly express your sorrow. Sincere repentance opens the door to God’s forgiveness and the grace of true amendment. By offering prayers and penances for those you have wronged, you should seek to atone personally for your actions. Christ’s redeeming sacrifice has the power to forgive even the gravest of sins, and to bring forth good from even the most terrible evil. At the same time, God’s justice summons us to give an account of our actions and to conceal nothing. Openly acknowledge your guilt, submit yourselves to the demands of justice, but do not despair of God’s mercy. "

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedi...ireland_en.html

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#422446 - 01/17/13 08:12 PM Re: Pope calls CP "normal" [Re: cant_remember]
traveler Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3196
Loc: back in the USA
Thank you, NT for this.
i found it very moving and could agree with nearly all of it.
and i'm not catholic.
but of course, the proof of the pudding...
just hoping that it actually trickles down to practical action - on behalf of the victims - and to hold the perpetrators accountable - not just to forgive and absolve them.
Lee
_________________________
We are often troubled, but not crushed;
sometimes in doubt, but never in despair;
there are many enemies, but we are never without a friend;
and though badly hurt at times, we are not destroyed.
- Paul, II Cor 4:8-9

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#422454 - 01/17/13 09:11 PM Re: Pope calls CP "normal" [Re: cosmos]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6708
Loc: USA
I saw on public TV that the Vatican art museum is incredibly huge. I wondered how many statues of naked boy angels do they have there. I'll bet it's more than a few.

Puffer

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#422646 - 01/19/13 03:17 PM Re: Pope calls CP "normal" [Re: cant_remember]
cant_remember Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 997
From today's NY Times:

BERLIN — A report about child sexual abuse in the Roman Catholic Church in Germany, based on victim accounts and released by the church this week, showed that priests carefully planned their assaults and frequently abused the same children repeatedly for years. ...

The reported assaults were clustered largely in the country’s heavily Roman Catholic regions along the Rhine River to the west and throughout the south, including Pope Benedict XVI’s home state, Bavaria.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/19/world/...an-priests.html
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