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#417906 - 12/02/12 12:55 AM Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC
cant_remember Offline
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Registered: 02/26/05
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Many here at MS know the story of Johnny Gosch. It was 30 years ago on September 5 that 12-year-old Johnny was abducted from Des Moines, Iowa.

I just happen to come across a notice that MSNBC is preparing a documentary on the subject, and thought others at MS might want a head's up.

The air date is scheduled for December 16 at 9 pm eastern.

Below is the link and the description from the website.

Cant


http://johnnygosch.com/

MSNBC’s dynamic news documentary series Maximum Drama continues to present thought-provoking stories with the premiere of “Missing Johnny,” an examination of the infamous thirty-year-old cold case of missing child Johnny Gosch –the first missing child to appear on a milk carton- on Sunday, December 16th at 9 pm ET. “Missing Johnny” focuses on the heartbreaking story of Johnny’s mother, Noreen Gosch, and her relentless quest to find the truth about her missing son.

“Missing Johnny,” chronicles the endless intrigue and conspiracy theories surrounding the eyewitness sightings, physical evidence and case-turning discoveries which span across three decades. The documentary intertwines original interviews of all the main characters with archival news footage, home video and film material spanning 30 years. Interviews include the last adult to see Johnny, the West Des Moines police captain and a convicted child molester who says he took part in Johnny’s abduction.

The Maximum Drama series takes viewers to the places that are usually considered off limits and out of bounds. The season includes fascinating stories such as an investigation into the human trafficking industry in “Sex Slaves: Chicago,” as well as the premiere of “Ted Bundy’s Death Row Tapes.”
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#418404 - 12/07/12 12:09 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
SoccerStar Offline
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Registered: 10/15/12
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There are things about the Gosch case that are unbelievably creepy even by pedo kidnapping standards.

TRIGGERS - KIDNAPPING, RAPE

The mother, Noreen Gosch, has several times over the years been sent photos of boys who had been bound and gagged, some of them pretty clearly in tears and distress. One of them sure seems widely agreed to be the real Johnny Gosch post-kidnapping - wraring the same pants he was in on his last day at home. The National Center for Missing & Exploited Children seems to find them genuine. She put most of them up on her website, but says there are others she was sent that she cannot post, pictures showing Johnny and other boys soon after their rapes, with rectal bleeding.

She also swears that Johnny visited her once afterwards, describing a bizarre middle-of-the-night meeting with a then 27-year-old Johnny and a slightly older man, to whom Johnny behaved subserviently and had to ask for approval to speak. Allegedly, Johnny had escaped from a pedophile ring, was in mortal terror for his life, and had to live in secret under a fake name. He left very soon and has never contacted her again.

There is no corroborating evidence whatsoever for that meeting. Maybe the poor woman, after a decade of loss and heartbreak and seeing things no mother should see, went nuts or got drunk and hallucinated, or some merger of that.

Or... maybe it's true. *shudders*


Edited by SoccerStar (12/08/12 05:32 AM)
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#418446 - 12/07/12 04:36 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: SoccerStar]
pufferfish Offline
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This is one of the photos from the Johnny Gosch web site

[Image removed by ModTeam]

All images are from the johnnygosch website:
http://www.johnnygosch.com/

They guy who kidnapped me at age 12 was an expert at tying knots and used the type of rope shown in this photo. Same precistion work. He taught the rope-tying class at the Boy Scout Camp. Does that mean anything? I can't get anybody to pay attention to this detail. I WAS TIED WITH THE SAME KIND OF KNOTS IN THE SAME KIND OF ROPE. I know, go down to the local hardware store and buy more rope......





Puffer


Edited by ModTeam (11/12/13 10:13 PM)
Edit Reason: Triggering image.

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#418465 - 12/07/12 09:50 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
SoccerStar Offline
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There are only so many ways you can usefully tie up another person. All the styles might have converged from the same military training manual. Shawn Hornbeck described being tied up much the same way - 25 years after Johnny Gosch and probably 40 years after you, Pufferfish.

Those pictures give me the creeping horrors. Who does this kind of shit?!?!??
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#418468 - 12/07/12 10:21 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: SoccerStar]
pufferfish Offline
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***Triggering***

Yes, I suppose that kind of thing might have happened at various times. Yet there is the matter of the method of operation. There seems to be a matter of "style" in the use of clean, new, hemp ropes tied with a meticulous attention to type of knot.

However, I wasn't tied in that position. I think that's called 'hog-tying', and it's for restraint. On the Johnny Gosch web site it says that those were 'trophy photos'.

I know that my abuser was an expert at knots because he showed us the booth at the camp where he taught the use of knots. He demonstrated the tying of various knots with that same kind of hemp rope. Every kind of knot was demonstrated in front of the booth. It was quite intriguing. After leaving the knot-tying booth he led us up a wooded path to the top of a hill. On the way he was pointing out the different kinds of trees. He made a comment about the slippery elm tree... I even mention that in my pufferfish story part 5. The next booth was actually a rustic floor with a roof and lots of tables around for making leaf imprints. To a 12-year-old it was quite intriguing.

I know that the knots Johnny is tied with have specific names, which I don't remember for sure. There are names such as clove-hitch, half-hitch etc. I think that in the photo the boy's legs are tied with the same kind of knot used to tie logs together. His hands are tied too tightly and they are turning red, so the circulation has been impeded. The knot on the wrists may be called a 'clove hitch'.

I was tied in a different position. He took me out of bed while I was sleeping. I awoke nude and face-up, one arm tied (with that kind of rope) to each bedpost and one ankle to the other bedposts, etc., etc. The position is called the 'spreadeagle'. sex position. I think he used that term but not that night.

The mood of my captivity was similar to that shown in the above photos. Desolate, lonely, helpless, hopeless. Yes, in that sense it is quite provocative to me too, but for me it's a memory. So it's yes, I've "been there, done that" in the sense of having been held captive like that. Perhaps he even enjoyed that aspect of abuse of making somebody captive and subduing their will.

Puffer



Edited by pufferfish (12/07/12 11:38 PM)

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#418485 - 12/07/12 11:57 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
cant_remember Offline
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((((((((Puffer)))))))

Soccer, the people that do this, their day will come.

Cant


Edited by cant_remember (12/08/12 12:04 AM)
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#418488 - 12/08/12 01:00 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
pufferfish Offline
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Thank you guys, for your comfort for something which never quite heals.

There is a significant thread here at MS on "Kidnap Survival":

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthr...true#Post318937

There are a bunch of us who report having been kidnapped. There is a post from a rare survivor of the psychopath Clifford Olson who kidnapped and killed boys.

I have recently finished reading the book about Aaron Fisher's ordeal at the hands of Jerry Sandusky. I learned many good things from that book. One of them was that those abusers are looking for a certain type of victim, or a certain type of boy. They are seeking a profile of the type of boy they want to molest. So it makes sense to me that my abuser was looking for something which he found in me (unfortunately sick ). He didn't have time to groom me. He used brutal force.

Puffer



Edited by pufferfish (12/08/12 01:04 AM)

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#418489 - 12/08/12 01:04 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: pufferfish]
peroperic2009 Offline
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Registered: 10/09/11
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Originally Posted By: pufferfish
The mood of my captivity was similar to that shown in the above photos. Desolate, lonely, helpless, hopeless. Yes, in that sense it is quite provocative to me too, but for me it's a memory. So it's yes, I've "been there, done that" in the sense of having been held captive like that. Perhaps he even enjoyed that aspect of abuse of making somebody captive and subduing their will.

Puffer

Puffer I'm more than sure that sadistic abusers are doing it because of feelings of helplessness, desolation and fear in eyes of victims frown
These pictures are because of that very very troublesome for me, I can see how they looked on that children-victims, absolute domination (and beyond) was only goal of such treatment, if it is needed destruction has been applied till victim wasn't brought to the weakest spot between reality and loss of consciousness, between life and death where sense of lost is the strongest frown
It is true that they are looking for some type of victims. That sometimes doesn't include only "look", for example will to fight till last moment and instincts shown during such torture could be equally of interest frown


(((Puffer)))
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#418491 - 12/08/12 01:27 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: peroperic2009]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
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Loc: USA
Here is a thread in which I show my pictures before and after the torture/abuse thing at age 12.

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthr...0799#Post350799

It actually took me quite a while to put all these pictures together. I knew I didn't like some of the pictures. Then it dawned on me that my distorted facial expression and posture were actually symptoms of what I had experienced.

Here is a picture of me immediately after being set free:



Contrast this with my picture in the avatar.

Puffer



Edited by pufferfish (12/08/12 02:35 AM)

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#418499 - 12/08/12 05:30 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
SoccerStar Offline
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Registered: 10/15/12
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(((((Puffer))))) I've told you this before - I'm so glad you survived.

The similarity of binding methods has not gone unnoticed in other forums.

ANOTHER TRIGGERING TIED-UP KID PHOTO
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5139055&postcount=18

This is another picture sent to Noreen Gosch. On the right is disappeared kid Steven Kraft. There is a good resemblence. The binding methods match those described by Shawn Hornbeck. Based on the date and location of his disappearance there is a lot of speculation in Internet and law enforcement circles that the same perp (Michael Devlin) did Kraft too. Devlin denies having other victims, but since he would have to have killed any others, that's what you would say if you wanted to avoid the death penalty isn't it?

No one will ever know.


Edited by SoccerStar (12/08/12 05:47 AM)
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#418518 - 12/08/12 01:25 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: SoccerStar]
pufferfish Offline
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The question at this point is: Who did it?

Another contributor to the Kidnap Survival thread suggested that I view a documentary. (kidneythis)

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=422150&page=1

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthr...8937#Post318937

I followed his suggestion and about a third of the way through I saw some frames in which I recognized my abuser when I was 12.

It had to be that kidney had encountered my abuser when he was being mistreated in a New Jersey center. He recognized that I had been abused by the same person and so he offered me the video link in which I visually identified my abuser.

This is the doccumentary:
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/videos/cia-secret-experiments/

This is a screen-capture of him. He's the tall man with the black tie, in the military uniform. He's standing with his arms folded:



Or, in a closeup view:



If this is really him, and I believe it is, then this gives us a lot of information about him.

Puffer



Edited by pufferfish (01/15/13 11:33 AM)

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#418623 - 12/09/12 09:38 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: pufferfish]
pufferfish Offline
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I'm sorry if I'm pushing this too hard. It's just that it's caused a lot of pain. It didn't get better on it's own.

This is 2 weeks after the camp:


This is me at Christmas time, age 13, or 1 1/2 years after trauma:


This is age 14, or 2 1/2 years after the trauma. Taken at school:


Puffer



Edited by pufferfish (12/11/12 04:36 PM)

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#418642 - 12/09/12 11:46 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
cant_remember Offline
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((((((((Puffer))))))))))

Never apologize. Not here.

You can tell us what happened to you as many times as you need to. We love you so much. Our brother; our uncle.

Cant
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#418715 - 12/10/12 11:55 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
pufferfish Offline
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*** triggering ***

How can I say this? My "gut" feeling has always been that he tried to "snuff" me. I claim that I saw another boy snuffed on Wednesday night. He repeatedly threatened to kill me and said I could or would show up as a drowning victim. The camp was near a large body of water, the Chesapeake Bay.

But when I say that, ... it immediately sounds suspicious to people. 'Well if you were snuffed then why are you typing this post right now?' So I just have to tell it as I remember it. Some of this came up in EMDR.

Wednesday night another boy came into the isolated tent where the abuse was taking place. I didn't know the boy. The boy was briefly introduced by first name. I think I remember that his name was Bobby. He had reddish-blond hair in a crew cut and he had a roundish face. I think he was 13. The perp put us into a '3-way'. He then snuffed the other boy by deep-throating him. He told me 'Look what you did, you killed him'. He carried the boy out of the tent. The boy was very limp. He wanted me to feel like I did it. Then the next night he deep-throated me. I passed out. I thought I had been killed but I came back out of it. I saw light all around before coming out. This is how they describe near-death experiences. Even some of the therapists I told this to didn't believe me.

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=418699#Post418699

Another clinical observer, looking at my pictures afterward, said I had experienced blunt force trauma. All I knew of was that it was snuffing by deep-throating.

Afterward I was quite confused. But if I even say this it tends to refute what I'm saying. So I just go ahead and say it.

Many years later, after remembering this stuff, I searched the archives of the Washington Post and found a number of instances of boys' bodies showing up as having been drowned.

Puffer





Edited by pufferfish (12/10/12 08:54 PM)

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#418829 - 12/11/12 04:53 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: pufferfish]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
*** May be triggering or annoying to some ***

As a 12-year-old little boy I of course had little insight as to how the abuse I experienced would fit into a larger picture.

I have been reading a book which I think gives a lot of insight as to how my experience in being abused for 2 weeks at scout camp fit into a larger picture. The book is: The Franklin Scandal: A Story of Powerbrokers, Child Abuse & Betrayal, by Nick Bryant.

http://www.amazon.com/Franklin-Scandal-Story-Powerbrokers-Betrayal/dp/1936296071/

The problem was that my abuse took place in 1951. I had no idea that it might be linked to events way outside of my experience.

The first thing that happened was that the abuser visited my mother while I was at school in November 1951. I was appalled when I came home from school and learned of it. He brought a leather badge of accomplishment that I had "attended Camp Theodore Roosevelt". It heightened my fear. He knew who I was and where I lived. He had threatened to find me and kill me if I ever "told". The threats were accompanied by placing the point of a hunting knife against my ribs so I could feel it.

But this book on the Franklin Scandal seems to open up a lot of insight as to what happened. There is an entire chapter in this book on child abuse and sex rings in Washington DC. There was a pedophile ring leader named Craig Spence,

http://franklinscandal.com/

http://franklinscandal.com/franklinscandal_wdcinfo1.html

I identified the photo of my abuser in a previous post, where he is wearing a military uniform. The setting of the picture is a high-level meeting about the testing of LSD on civilians and military personnel.

On page 315 of the book I cite above, it says that
Quote:

We had some very big-name clients in all walks of life...in the military, and....


Originally Posted By: page 313

King said they had clients who actually liked having sex with kids as they tortured them or killed the kid.


These statements seemed to agree with my experience and shed light on it.

Another quote from this book, The Franklin Scandal:

Originally Posted By: page 503

Bonacci also told me about a high-ranking military officer who was in cahoots with King and
Spence's pedophilic blackmail enterprise -- he said that the military officer in question was a Satanist and a pedophile. The military officer Bonacci alluded to is an admitted Satanist, and he was implicated in the molestation of several children.


OK. Now to return to another aspect of my experience, I was abused at a summer camp for boys... I found the following reference to experimentation in the use of LSD on children in summer camps. I was not subjected to LSD in 1951 (fortunately). The book I cite is: A Question of Torture: CIA Interrogation, From the Cold War to the War on Terror, by Alfred W. McCoy.

http://www.amazon.com/Question-Torture-Interrogation-American-Project/dp/0805082484/

Originally Posted By: page 29

From 1953 to 1963.... slip LSD ... ... pumped hallucinogens into children in summer camp...


So, yes, I think this is an allusion to experimentation on children in summer camps. Yes I was a child in a summer camp. I think my abuser had easy access to children in summer camps. I think he used that as a jumping-off-place for abuse and even experimentation on children. This seems to augment my experience where I thought he was experimenting with torture and brain-washing techniques.

Puffer



Edited by pufferfish (12/11/12 08:01 PM)

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#418846 - 12/11/12 07:37 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
SoccerStar Offline
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Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
That's... the same Bonacci who swears as a young teen held by a pedo ring he was forced to help kidnap Johnny Gosch? The one Noreen Gosch believes? The one who'd had all 10 of his fingers broken and was found credible in a court of law that ruled in his favor?

Holy shit Puffer... stay strong...!
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#418849 - 12/11/12 08:05 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: SoccerStar]
pufferfish Offline
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I've started receiving suspicious telephone calls, so I must be on-target.

Puffer

Edited:

I only received one "silent" phone call. No other problems have developed. I'm OK.

Yes it was the same Bonacci. I've never met him. I've only read about him in those books and seen vids of him. He went through much worse than I did.

I had just started my years of recovery when I saw the posters about Johnny Gosch. I was deeply affected and would break into tears over them. I snitched one of them and I still have it.

Puf



Edited by pufferfish (12/12/12 10:37 AM)

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#418850 - 12/11/12 08:26 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
traveler Offline
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Registered: 02/07/06
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Loc: somewhere in Africa
Puffer - please keep yourself SAFE!

i have followed your thread with interest and concern. i have nothing else to contribute beyond the fact that i believe you and support you in your quest for truth and accountability.

just - be CAREFUL!
Lee
_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


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#418871 - 12/12/12 02:27 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
crazy gecko Offline


Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 309
Oh wow, Puffer. This is scary.

I agree with Lee - please keep yourself safe!
_________________________
I guess what I'm trying to say
Is whose life is it anyway because livin'
Living is the best revenge
You can play
-- Def Leppard

My Story, Part 2

My blog

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#418910 - 12/12/12 10:32 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: crazy gecko]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
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There was only one scary call. It was only the type that the phone rings and when you answer it there is just silence... No threats or anything. No more calls. I slept securely and I'm OK.

Puffer

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#419036 - 12/13/12 04:15 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: pufferfish]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
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It is helping me a lot to see that what I went through when I was 12 was part of a much larger scheme of things.

I've been reading more about MK-Ultra and it's origins and it's practices.

I believe I see now that my perp. was part of a much larger scheme. It was 1951. The Korean war had recently ended, and some of our soldiers had returned having been brain-washed and tortured by North Koreans, and in what was called Red China then. The feeling on this side of the pond was that our intelligence services were weak, and that our 'boys' (soldiers) were being brain-washed and we didn't know anything about it. My abuser's father was part of organizing a new military intelligence operation. He had become preeminent during World War II and he then became the one to assume that responsibility. They wanted to be able to combat the brain-washing going on in North Korea and adjoining Chinese territories, and even do them one better. This conflict continues even today as we see the North Koreans firing a successful rocket into space (only yesterday).

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/weekinreview/06weiner.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

So Our newly-appointed intelligence services started up (Forgive me please if I'm a little bit inaccurate here as I was only a small child then. I have had to connect the dots in many cases where I had incomplete information). They wanted a military intelligence (now the NSA) and a civilian intelligence, which became the CIA. They had some lavish dreams, apparently, which seemed to justify experimentation on human beings, including children. Although this has been hushed up, there is evidence that children were used in all kinds of experiments, including administration of hallucinogens (LSD) and creation of multiple personality disorder. They used torture, isolation, degradation, sexual activities in that objective.

I have several sources of information on this. Some of them I cited in my previous post.

Bluebird: Deliberate Creation of Multiple Personality by Psychiatrists, by Colin A. Ross, MD.

http://www.wanttoknow.info/bluebird10pg

http://www.wanttoknow.info/mind_control/cia_mind_control_experiments_sex_abuse

So, my abuser, because of his relationship to the general setting up the intelligence services, must have come to have a roll in the instigation of these services. They were intelligent, forceful, and creative people. My abuser apparently had the quality of being brutal. He was allocated this role and since he had recently emerged from scouting in the Washington area and from an honored college. He was respected in scouting circles and so it must have led to a dual role, to be helpful in scouting activities while carrying out some of the early experiments leading to MK-Ultra, Project Bluebird, and Project Artichoke.

It was 1951. I happened to be going to the scout camp for the greater Washington area. My abuser had a role as one of the important "leadership" persons there. He must have sized me up as a possible candidate for his abuse, which he would have thought to be part of a larger program in how to learn to brainwash and program people for other uses.

Originally Posted By: Colin A. Ross in Bluebird, page 3

BLUEBIRD was approved by the CIA director on April 20, 1950. In August 1951, the Project was renamed ARTICHOKE. BLUEBIRD and ARTICHOKE included a great deal of work on the creation of amnesia, hypnotic couriers, and the Manchurian Candidate.


Originally Posted By: Colin A. Ross in Bluebird, page 9

Dr. Estabrooks did experiments on children ... His experimentation on children raises the possibility that investigators have attempted to create Manchurian Candidates in children. Such a possibility might seem far-fetched until one considers the LSD, bioligical and radiation experiments conducted on children,....


So I was abused by him in a tent. I have previously written descriptions of what I went through. There was no LSD, as far as I know, and no electric shock, since it was in a camping setting and we didn't have electricity there. But I got everything else: restraint by being tied with ropes, degratation (being shitted and peed on), forced sex with him and other boys, brainwashing with a knife, and torture by having various stuff thrust up my ass. I watched another boy killed. An attempt was made to kill me also by smothering by deep throating. It was very damaging, to say the least.

Puffer

PS Added 12/18/13 The quotes from Dr. Colin Ross are originally from a book written by Dr. Ross:

Bluebird : Deliberate Creation of Multiple Personality by Psychiatrists Paperback
by Colin A. Ross

Colin Ross has done a huge amount of work to rehabilitate survivors of abuse, especially those with DID (Multiple Personality Disorder). His work and writings have been quoted often and He can be seen in various Youtube vids.

Project Bluebird was the name of the stuff going on when I was abused at the scout camp. It was soon changed to Artichoke and then to MKUltra. Other names were used. Monarch was then the name given to the programming sex slaves and other kinds of mind-controlled slaves.

I believe that their agenda was not firmly in place at the time they worked on me. Also I believe that I was not selected (fortunately) as a programmable Monarch candidate because the experiments had the effect of making me terribly depressed and they increased my social alienation. A Monarch candidate was supposed to be a kind of Superman.

http://www.amazon.com/Bluebird-Deliberate-Creation-Personality-Psychiatrists/dp/0970452519/

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=Ross%20CIA

http://www.amazon.com/Colin-A.-Ross/e/B001HCV7VQ/



Edited by pufferfish (12/18/13 01:36 PM)

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#419265 - 12/16/12 09:29 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
cant_remember Offline
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Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 1045
Puffer,

You are very brave to make these connections and to say them out loud. I believe you, as do many others here.

It would be nice to hear from therapy professionals whose eyes have been opened to this reality, and what they think we should do about it.

The waters were muddied back in the 90s with "False Memory Syndrome" after the first wave of disclosure on this subject. That appears to have made professionals afraid to speak out for fear of being marginalized by their colleagues.

And that's a shame.

Cant
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#419563 - 12/19/12 02:24 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
pufferfish Offline
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*** This is scary and provocative ***





Brain Washing Techniques and Mind Control:

Now that I'm pretty sure that I went through an early version of this as a child, I think it's necessary to point out to others what happened. I think I went through this and emerged out the other side now. What I went through was fairly crude compared to later descriptions. I want to make it clear what went on. ... Yes, I'm just figuring it out myself. I'm just becoming aware of this in a broader context. Why am I doing this? Civic duty. Yes, I am concerned about doing this. Yes I don't need any more destruction in my life than what I've already experienced.

This is my story. It's pretty much exactly as I first remembered it. It's pretty nasty.
http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthr...9028#Post219028

There are 2 movies on the Manchurian Candidate which I haven't seen yet. Both of them are called Manchurian Candidate. One is a fairly recent and the other is from 1962 but about events in the 1950's (my timeline).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Manchurian_Candidate

The 2004 film:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0368008/

The 1964 film with Frank Sinatra etc.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056218/
Notice that the time setting of this movie (1952) was close timewise to what I experienced.


Documentary film on basic mind control techniques:
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/videos/cia-secret-experiments/

A document on this subject:
http://www.wanttoknow.info/mindcontrol10pg

A book on this: (see page 329) The Franklin Cover-up
http://www.amazon.com/Franklin-Cover-up-Satanism-Murder-Nebraska/dp/0963215809/


There was an effort to make certain people mind-controlled slaves. They were originally called Manchurian Candidates. They would on a secret command take on a task which would normally be quite foreign to their personalities. Afterward they would either completely forget the incident (amnesia) or they would dispose of their own self.

Two of the types of mind-control slaves to produce:
1) Assassins. People who would, under a secret signal which could be sent by a telephone message or TV etc, become a killer.

2) Sex slaves. People who would make themselves available for certain activities such as pornography, oral sex, other...

I believe that I was programmed to respond sexually in certain environmental contexts. I think it was oral. I lost some really good friends and I never knew why. Don't think that it was fun for me. It was disastrous. I was the last one to know. It ruined my life more than it otherwise would have been. The generic homily for this is turning into a green monster who people later want to destroy.

Since these programs were started in the early 50's, it can be assumed that they have become more sophisticated in years hence.

Puffer



Edited by pufferfish (12/19/12 03:26 PM)

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#419641 - 12/20/12 09:24 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
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Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 09:16 PM)
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#419664 - 12/20/12 04:57 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: lapchinj]
pufferfish Offline
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Jeff,

That's an excellent and helpful response to my post. I also talked it over with my T this afternoon, and he was affirmative about the dots I had managed to connect. It had an immediately helpful effect on my own psyche. After putting these things together and writing about it, I felt an immediate sense of relief and freedom from an anxiety I've had since being a little boy.

Puffer

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#419690 - 12/20/12 07:42 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
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Jeff & Puffer,

You two are heroes to so many of us here. For you to have endured so and survived, both of you are special people.

You give us all strength and hope.

Cant
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#419701 - 12/20/12 08:45 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
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Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 09:16 PM)
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#419718 - 12/21/12 12:16 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
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Jeff,

Truth is our friend; it sets us free.

Cant
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#419732 - 12/21/12 06:19 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
lapchinj Offline
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Hey Cant,

I realize that in spades. Since you helped me so much putting together my past I do feel much more free. thanks so much.

Peace,Rainbows & Healing
Jeff
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#419746 - 12/21/12 10:08 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
peroperic2009 Offline
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I'm so happy seeing Jeff looking into overall picture and seeing how wild and dangerous things were back than.
I hate the most cases when abusers used physical torture to make innocent victims obedient, it is awful, it is violent and it is very difficult to deal with.
Abusers (monsters) are using so devastating and destructive force that many years are not enough for healing.

I'll just add (((Puffer and Jeff))) you both are our heroes!

Pero
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#419781 - 12/21/12 04:45 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: peroperic2009]
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Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 09:17 PM)
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#419788 - 12/21/12 06:44 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
SoccerStar Offline
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If they were able to turn up the pain level slowly instead of "on/off" or "low/high", plus it being scaled for, uh, access to a human body, then I believe it was probably a picana rod: inspired by cattleprod but redesigned in the dungeons of South American fascist regimes in the 1930s for the sole purpose of torturing humans. Political prisoners. They came to be used worldwide.

These guys didn't improvise at the Home Depot, they got a legit human torture tool from someone whose job it was to use them. It does bring up the question of connections and networks.

You can look it up "picana" on Wikipedia, but DO NOT Google, trust me.


Edited by SoccerStar (12/22/12 06:50 AM)
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#419885 - 12/23/12 01:25 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
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Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 09:17 PM)
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#419967 - 12/23/12 07:12 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
SoccerStar Offline
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Wires attached = definitely NOT a cattleprod, because those need to be self-contained to allow for use on moving, evading targets. External wires connect to an external power source - because the target is immobilized. Because it's a professional fascist torture device.

I'm sorry, Jeff. Sorry you were exposed to that freakshow, and more than a little bit sorry that I'm focusing on it with you now in such lurid detail. I really only do so for two reasons:

1. To make plain that there was never any doubt you were going to break and obey, because that's what professional torturers design their sole-use human torture devices to do

And

2. To illustrate that in a way it was better off for the "omega victims" that it was you involved and not someone else. Because everybody reading this knows there would have been some 14-year-olds out there, crazy sociopath street kids, who would have leapt at the chance to use that picana rod themselves and crank up the voltage on the littler kids. You KNOW that could just as easily have happened.
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#419982 - 12/23/12 11:49 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
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Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 09:17 PM)
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#419991 - 12/24/12 12:26 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
SoccerStar Offline
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Oh god Jeff I am so sorry, I an so sorry, I can't believe what an oblivious clueless fucking idiot I was when I wrote that; I was trying to offer a historical factual clue that I figured would help but I was way out of line to bring the rest in, I am so sorry, I hurt you and I'm sorry. I'm like that asshole computer guy in Titanic whizzing up a simulation of how the ship sank and rattling off every disaster stat while meanwhile the actual survivor is right there remembering all the people who suffered and died. I was totally oblivious to what I was saying, I should have stopped with the basic historic fact and then shut my damn mouth, this is supposed to be a safe place and I had no right to confront you with your deepest pain like it was some fucking footnote. I am so ashamed of myself, I'd delete it right now but it's too late.

I never meant to trigger you Jeff, you have only ever been kind and welcoming to me and I am so sorry, I didn't mean things to go that far. I am still new to this and I really fucked up, I should have known better. I can't believe I brought you back there again like a fucking asshole and I'm hiding in my house now crying from shame because I hurt you. Again I am so sorry and ashamed for my cluelessness. There was only one historical fact I contributed here and the rest I had no business bringing up at all. If I'd thought it through for 10 seconds I never ever would have said the rest and I can only offer you my most ashamed apologies.
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#419999 - 12/24/12 02:32 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
peroperic2009 Offline
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Hey Jeff, it is good that you shared all your burden with us.
It must be very difficult for you man, I can imagine that would be even harder if you didn't tell.
You are not wasted human and your mother was not right at all, I have to say that your parents because of some reason were terrible cold and bad parents, you needed love and care and you got nothing but neglect. And that I call being inhuman.
It is hurting me seeing how much you are in pain because of devastating things that happen to you (yes all that happen to you, you didn't ask for it nor you have had some choice to avoid it; you were forced by sadistic abusers).
Please be calm, I like you very much and it is inspiring seeing you trying your best in search for healing.
And yes we all know what person you are, you are very sensitive, carrying, warm and terrible nice person smile
I feel blessed that I meet you, here is my warmest hug for adult Jeff from present and that very brave and very lonely 14 years old boy that is still alive inside
(((Jef)))
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#420005 - 12/24/12 08:51 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
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Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 09:17 PM)
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#420006 - 12/24/12 08:58 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
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Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 09:18 PM)
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#420007 - 12/24/12 09:01 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
lapchinj Offline
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I would just like to take a moment to wish everyone here a

Merry, Merry Christmas Holiday Season.

lets hope next year will be a little bit better.

Peace,Rainbows & Healing
Jeff
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#420012 - 12/24/12 10:22 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: lapchinj]
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Jeff

You weren't really a prostitute. You were fleeing from a bitter home situation. You acquired the bitterness of being a street child who was making money for a pimp who probably became wealthy from it. You were being used by the wealthy and powerful to satisfy their greed, their lust and need for pleasure. They injured you. They made you injure other boys. They set you up to do stuff you otherwise would not have chosen to do. They certainly didn't have your best interests at heart. That is what you feel.

Puffer

Added later:

Yes I'm trying to "mess with your mind about this".

I'm not trying to tell a lie about this or change what we perceive as reality. We were all told wrong things about who we were as children or youths. These things became deeply imbedded in our minds. We came to believe these lies. But they are nevertheless false. Our healing has to do with outgrowing those concepts we were unfortunately led to believe. It takes work and repetition. We have to be told these things by others, often by a therapist who can tell us while watching us to make sure we don't over-react. We often repeat the same things in our present lives which were destructive to us in the past. We can change. We can live new lives.

Jeff, I have found that you are a caring, sensitive, intelligent person. You have a gift of writing that could make you famous if you were able to use it appropriately. You cared deeply even about those you were compelled to abuse. That's why you remembered their identities enough to be aware that they were different persons. That proves you cared. The fact that you feel deep remorse now shows that you cared and that you are not really that person you seemed to be then.





Edited by pufferfish (12/24/12 01:05 PM)

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#420013 - 12/24/12 10:25 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: lapchinj]
pufferfish Offline
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Originally Posted By: lapchinj
I would just like to take a moment to wish everyone here a

Merry, Merry Christmas Holiday Season.

lets hope next year will be a little bit better.

Peace,Rainbows & Healing
Jeff


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#420019 - 12/24/12 01:07 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
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Yes Jeff,

I would like to agree with Puffer. You were not a prostitute; you were a child sex trafficking victim, and now you are sex trafficking survivor.

Cant
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#420020 - 12/24/12 01:36 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
SoccerStar Offline
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I'm so glad you understand Jeff, and that this conversation hasn't caused you undue pain (or at least hasn't caused unnecessary pain - your metaphor of removing burned skin is very apt). I would never want to say something that triggered or "reversed" any of the people here who are working so hard at recovery, and was mortified by the thought.

And to build off Puffer's point - the "omega victims" were doomed regardless, some "alpha victim" or another would have had to do it. But by your soulful remorse, your wondering about them, your feelings of pity for their pain and the hellish wrongness of it all.... Jeff, you might very well be the only person to have ever shown them or even thought of them with a shred of kindness. They exist only in the shadow world of child trafficking by well-outfitted professional torturers, and it may well be the case that their identities and statuses will never be discovered. But the one and only thing that is definitely known to anchor them to basic humanity, the only individual to feel any compassion or concern for them at all, the sole act of validation of their inner worth as human beings - comes from YOU, Jeff. They had everything taken from them, by people who cared nothing for them and probably laughed and drooled at every instant.

Only within you, in all of this world, is their humanity respected, and wished to have been protected. Only you and no one else can envision them and say "This was WRONG and THEY DESERVED BETTER!" You are the guardian of their sole link to human normalcy and justice, even if it's just an emotional wish for justice.

That's got to count for something, right?

Matt


Edited by SoccerStar (12/24/12 04:06 PM)
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#420032 - 12/24/12 06:45 PM * [Re: cant_remember]
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Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/29/13 01:31 PM)

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#420041 - 12/24/12 09:05 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
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Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 09:18 PM)
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#420048 - 12/24/12 10:48 PM * [Re: cant_remember]
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Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/29/13 01:33 PM)

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#420053 - 12/25/12 12:23 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
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Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 09:18 PM)
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#420105 - 12/25/12 07:22 PM * [Re: cant_remember]
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Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/29/13 01:35 PM)

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#420114 - 12/25/12 11:02 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
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Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 09:19 PM)
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#420117 - 12/25/12 11:22 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
SoccerStar Offline
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The pictures are their centerfolds. They get off on the helplessness, misery, degradation, and dread, and can then imagine / fantasize about what is yet to come.

Originally Posted By: lapchinj
What surprised me was the kids on that site were clothed


These are just the ones that Noreen Gosch was able to post to her website. She claims to have received others that are far too graphic for that.


Edited by SoccerStar (12/25/12 11:25 PM)
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#420120 - 12/26/12 12:26 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
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Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 09:15 PM)
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#420121 - 12/26/12 12:36 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
lapchinj Offline
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I just thought that this was the best thread for

Wishing You All A Happy Holiday Season

No matter what you believe in.

You are all in my hearts and you are all beautiful people. I thank you for being here for me and each other. I wish you all a beautiful new year and healing for all.

Everything is beautiful in it's own way

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a45z_HG3WU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNw5BWNbJ8I

Love you all

Peace,Rainbows & Healing
<3 XOXO
Jeff
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#420125 - 12/26/12 05:22 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
peroperic2009 Offline
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Hey Jeff, thank you for such nice wish and beautiful uplifting music smile

Happy Holidays guys smile

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#420140 - 12/26/12 09:37 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
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Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 09:14 PM)
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#420147 - 12/26/12 10:37 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
peroperic2009 Offline
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(((Jeff))) smile
I'm glad that you turned it out into something positive.
Be happy no matter on fears of death wink.
Smile and share love even if it because of drug, lol
Hugs!


Pero
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#420190 - 12/26/12 07:00 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: lapchinj]
traveler Offline
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Originally Posted By: lapchinj
I felt so good, just like a good vanilla ice cream cone with sprinkles. That was special for me because my parents never took me to a Carvel stand.

Anyway, I just felt so thankful to all of you guys I just had to share my moment of joy.


Just for you, Jeff!


love & peace,
Lee
_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


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#420196 - 12/26/12 08:47 PM * [Re: cant_remember]
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Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/29/13 01:37 PM)

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#420200 - 12/26/12 11:15 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
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Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 09:19 PM)
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#421162 - 01/05/13 08:56 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: lapchinj]
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An inquiry into harsh interrogations is being made by the Senate Intelligence Committee.

http://news.yahoo.com/lawmakers-cia-may-misled-filmmakers-140445772.html

I'm glad to see it officially questioned.

I believe that my post in this thread described an early attempt at developing the harsh interrogation methods referred to in this article.

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=419036


puffer



Edited by pufferfish (01/05/13 09:05 PM)

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#421317 - 01/06/13 11:00 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
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Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 09:19 PM)
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#421331 - 01/07/13 12:30 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
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Jeff - you are so very welcome.

i wish i could do more.

it just makes me cry to think of a hurting kid using the tips he got for being violated and tortured to comfort himself with something so normal and innocent as ice cream.

so have another one on me - and get a double side order of healing to go!

Lee
_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


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#421362 - 01/07/13 07:13 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
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Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 09:20 PM)
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#421377 - 01/07/13 09:37 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
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This thread throws me into a rage that cannot be quantified!
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#421397 - 01/07/13 02:06 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
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Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 09:20 PM)
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#422240 - 01/16/13 12:59 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: lapchinj]
pufferfish Offline
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I just stumbled upon this vid which I believe shows the origins of the evils I faced in the summer camp.

I think that fortunately he only had 2 weeks with me and that the methods were still primitive then.

I think this material is pretty bad stuff. It doesn't say explicitly that they experimented on children, but it shows it in several pictures: *(I have to modify what I originally said here. There is a large amount of information on abuse of children in experiments (American children) in the book by Marshall Thomas).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIr0_Mt6AXg

I find there are a whole bunch of videos documenting this stuff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1ZNgsNBi8c

Puffer

PS - Now I'm wondering if I was given LSD on the last 2 or 3 days of the camp. My mind became very confused and I experienced a terror that was indescribable. I have found a reference which documents that LSD was given to children in summer camps in 1953. My experience was in 1951. The summer camp was located a fairly short distance from the lab where LSD was kept. Since I now believe that the perpetrator of my abuse in the camp was an operative in military intelligence, he would have had access to this material.

Originally Posted By: page 29 in: A Question of Torture: CIA Interrogation, From the Cold War to the War On Terror, by Alfred W. McCoy, published 2006

...pumped hallucinogens into children at summer camp...


The author, Alfred W. McCoy is the J.R.W. Small Professor of History of the University of Wisconsin-Madison. He is the author of numerous books and articles, including The Politics of Heroin in Southeast Asia and Closer than Brothers.

When a T tried to use EMDR to treat this experience, I started to go wacko but since I could dissociate, I did that instead. I had learned to dissociate because of abuse at age 4, etc.

Here are some vids on LSD administered to people and animals:

Children and LSD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjSoFCj-t5I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQQJfoRzefM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJEw3A_QO9o&list=PLHLqP3bn74o1LxfQu9qhjX-VSKirovMJP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDkpr3J6ZpU

So, what did I do when I was given LSD? I don't remember.

Psychological effects. It is clear that LSD was not given to me for my benefit. It was an experiment. They didn't know anything about dosage and didn't care.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b_X7-JXyEU

Other experiments:

http://www.youtube.com/user/marsboy683?feature=watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7fOuPTZtWI&list=PLHLqP3bn74o1LxfQu9qhjX-VSKirovMJP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJEw3A_QO9o&list=PLHLqP3bn74o1LxfQu9qhjX-VSKirovMJP



Edited by pufferfish (01/23/13 04:59 PM)

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#422242 - 01/16/13 01:18 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
cant_remember Offline
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Those are good and informative videos, Puffer. They are notable because the presentation is understated with no background music.

Be careful going down the rabbit hole watching and looking for stuff like this. Can be very triggering.

Cant
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#422248 - 01/16/13 02:12 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
pufferfish Offline
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Pictures showing experimentation on American children in Project MK-Ultra in the 1950's and 1960's.

A boy is given a heavy dose of LSD: (note tear on his cheek)



These photos are available in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIr0_Mt6AXg

Written documentation is in: A Question of Torture: CIA Interrogation, From the Cold War to the War On Terror, by Alfred W. McCoy, published 2006, page 29.
__________________________________________________________

A girl is having her mind erased:



Written documentation of this is in: Monarch: The New Phoenix Program, by Marshall G. Thomas, published 2007, 193 pages.

Some of the text of the listed YouTube video was extracted from this book.

Puffer



Edited by pufferfish (01/19/13 09:17 PM)

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#422254 - 01/16/13 02:29 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
peroperic2009 Offline
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Registered: 10/09/11
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I wonder where are monsters who did those experiments frown
Only couple countries were capable for allowing such monstrous crimes to humanity and I'm more than ashamed when seeing this ....
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#422270 - 01/16/13 03:08 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: peroperic2009]
pufferfish Offline
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Originally Posted By: traveler


Steve - yes, i've had an urge - more like a compulsion - to figure out what happened to me and why the abusers did what they did.


Yes, me too. It's been a compulsion. My abuser's father was apparently a famous person. There are several books written about him.

Here's a quote from a book which expounds on what the abuser's father was like as a person. Imagine what it would be like to have a father like this:

Originally Posted By: K.D.N. (author of a book)

(written by one of his underlings)..blank..blank.. is the biggest S.O.B. I have ever worked for. He is most demanding. He is most critical. He is always a driver, never a praiser. He is abrasive and sarcastic. .... He is extremely intelligent..... He is the most egotistical man I know.


And here is a description of the abuser (his son, my abuser) at an early age:

Originally Posted By: R.S.N (author of a book)

For... 5-yr-old ..... roamed...with a gang of small boys, slashing screens, throwing rocks through glass windows, and.....smashed some brand-new toilet bowls that had been left outside the building where...
.......
After discussing the offenses they were tallied up; 3 belts for being rude to mama,.....the account was settled using a web (military) belt delivered on ...bare legs


So, in summary, the small boy was involved in a gang of boys who were destroying property, and he was frequently and viciously belted by his father even if he had committed only a minor infraction.

Puffer


Edited by pufferfish (01/23/13 04:48 PM)

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#422636 - 01/19/13 01:19 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: pufferfish]
pufferfish Offline
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I've found more references to the clandestine services experimenting with administering LSD to children in the 1950's.

There is a book, ACID: A New Secret History of LSD, by David Black, Ken Thomas.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0802130623/

Originally Posted By: ACID: A New Secret History of LSD by David Black, page 42
At one stage they even considered supplementing the roster of prostitutes with 12-year-old boys but, as one ex-agency source assured John Marks, even in the CIA mind control department, 'the idea of a 12-year-old boy was more than anyone could stomach.'


This would be funny if it weren't so sad. Who can control the mind of a 12-year-old boy?

The context of this quote is that some high-level committee was talking about using LSD as a drug to manipulate human behavior. They set up a room in San Francisco where prostitutes could administer LSD in an attempt to produce blackmail photography. The room had two-way mirrors so they could observe the effects. They also had one of these in Greenwich Village in NY. They apparently considered using 12-year-old boys instead of prostitutes, but rejected the idea.

But let me raise the question, in case I need to, Why did they specifically talk about 12-year-old boys? The answer seems to me to be that they had actually considered it before rejecting it. They had already gathered some preliminary data on using 12-year-old boys.

They had already experimented with at least one 12-year-old boy. I was one of them. I'm glad that for whatever reason I influenced them to reject the plan.

Puffer



Edited by pufferfish (01/20/13 09:42 PM)

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#422763 - 01/20/13 09:50 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: pufferfish]
pufferfish Offline
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My mind continues to clear on this. I'm having new T sessions which will help. I am reading a book which talks about the deterioration of the programming with time in other people. I notice that the stuff I was subjected to is similar to what others had. He only had 2 weeks to try to program me. I think I was supposed to be programmed as a sex slave. I still don't understand the role of LSD.

As I gain insight as to what happened, my anxiety and depression have decreased. I was programed to "not talk". Indeed I got to the point where I couldn't talk above a whisper when I was a boy. Nobody knew why. Then when the memories of this stuff came up (or the amnesia broke) when I was in my forties, I saw what happened only from the standpoint of my reactions as a boy. It was like Pinocchio or Jonah seeing his situation only from inside the whale. But now the reading I've been doing is allowing me to get perspective. Now I see the whole whale so to speak as from outside. Now I'm getting the big picture. It was a Moby Dick!

The book I'm reading now is: Healing the Unimaginable. Treating Ritual Abuse and Mind Control, by Alison Miller.

http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Unimaginable-Treating-Ritual-Control/dp/1855758822/

I started reading the book in the middle. I often do that. The chapter is entitled: Military, Political, and Commercial Uses of Mind Control. First thing I want to do is issue a disclaimer. The abuser in that chapter is called "Puffy". I want to affirm that I definitely am not Puffy. I am now being called Puff of Puffer by a lot of the guys, but not Puffy.

Puffer not Puffy




Edited by pufferfish (01/20/13 09:59 PM)

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#422778 - 01/20/13 11:24 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
cant_remember Offline
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Puffer,

We love you so much.

Cant

edit: my sig file: Moby-Dick. coincidence?


Edited by cant_remember (01/20/13 11:24 PM)
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#433039 - 04/30/13 12:58 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
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I have suggested in the previous posts that my abuser was somehow involved with CIA and/or Army intelligence in testing out so-called procedures for studying the interrogation and/or manipulation of a "suspect". I came to suspect I might have been given LSD on the last day of that experience. My experience was in 1951. I was repeatedly sexually abused and tortured. I was repeatedly threatened with words and with a knife. I was tied with rope, starved and kept in isolation and semi-darkness. I saw another boy killed by "deep-throating" and remembered that was done to me the following day. The effects on me have been described in numerous posts here, but include Complex-PTSD, DIDNOS, long-standing depression, very low self-esteem and diminished social skills. I have had many hours of counseling, much of it at my own expense.

I have detailed my experience in the post pufferfish story part 5. Warning it is very disturbing and triggering.
http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthr...9028#Post219028

Publicized material on that period of time include the experiments in a so-called Project Bluebird.

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/project_bluebird.htm

Now I have discovered a couple of documentary films which seem to corroborate my suspicions. They point out that there was a period of time in which the US Army conducted brazen experiments on civilians:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0019KAQ68/

Originally Posted By: review in Amazon.com

Very good documentary about declassified US military and government activities / documents involving unauthorized chemical and medical testing on US citizens, from 1948 to the 1970's. Very well assembled and the closing statement is profound. Holds your interest throughout. Eye/mind opening. Highly recommended..


There is also a new book which I haven't seen yet, but it discusses the use of children in experiments during the cold war period:

Against Their Will: The Secret History of Medical Experimentation on Children in Cold War America [Hardcover]
Allen M. Hornblum (Author), Judith Lynn Newman (Author), Gregory J. Dober (Author)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0230341713/
Originally Posted By: review of this book in Amazon.com

During the Cold War, an alliance between American scientists, pharmaceutical companies, and the US military pushed the medical establishment into ethically fraught territory. Doctors and scientists at prestigious institutions were pressured to produce medical advances to compete with the perceived threats coming from the Soviet Union. In Against Their Will, authors Allen Hornblum, Judith Newman, and Gregory Dober reveal the little-known history of unethical and dangerous medical experimentation on children in the United States. Through rare interviews and the personal correspondence of renowned medical investigators, they document how children—both normal and those termed "feebleminded"—from infants to teenagers, became human research subjects in terrifying experiments. They were drafted as "volunteers" to test vaccines, doused with ringworm, subjected to electric shock, and given lobotomies. They were also fed radioactive isotopes and exposed to chemical warfare agents. This groundbreaking book shows how institutional superintendents influenced by eugenics often turned these children over to scientific researchers without a second thought. Based on years of archival work and numerous interviews with both scientific researchers and former test subjects, this is a fascinating and disturbing look at the dark underbelly of American medical history.


Puffer



Edited by pufferfish (04/30/13 01:55 PM)

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#433044 - 04/30/13 01:35 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3425
Loc: O Kanada
wow!

i just posted a bunch of material on this subject:
http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthr...2874#Post432874
**READ AT YOUR OWN RISK**

the person who raped me was working with/for the government as part of some sort of youth rehabilitation/job program, which was also involved with a church group, a convict/parole program, and a construction company.
i was a juvenile delinquent in trouble with the law.
my memories of that few weeks are very hazy, but i have vague recollections of a basement full of children all ages, i was moved to three different locations, big expensive houses in nice neighbourhoods, i barely and rarely did any actual "work" although i was technically employed and did receive money... my abuser had large amounts of cash and steady supply of drugs, he had keys to various places, he was always driving around, sometimes he would drop me off at some place and grab some other kid (one little girl i remember was only about 6) and leave with them for a while, return later, drop them off, and pick me up.
no one else abused me (that i can remember) but... there were other adults there with whom he was constantly communicating, and it seems impossible to me that these other adults that he kept meeting did not know what he was doing... now that i am an adult... it all seems so obviously suspicious.
i reported all this to the police... they told me there were several hundred victims who came forward... none of this reached the courts or newspapers...

instead he was portrayed as some sort of loner, but he was very social and sociable...
he then received over $100,000
http://news.ca.msn.com/clifford-olson-timeline-of-a-child-killer?page=5
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=19...;pg=859,717327

... i complained to the government and threatened to make a big deal out of the fact that they (the youth employment program) had handed me over to him... i was given a small victim compensation and that was the end of it, although he was never charged with any crime against me.

it all makes no sense, unless there was something going on behind the scenes...
or else i am just a crazy paranoid trauma victim.

in any case... because of my history... my testimony is not considered credible.

make up your own mind, because i simply do not know what really happened.
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#433048 - 04/30/13 01:45 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
bodyguard8367 Offline
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Registered: 05/16/12
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Edited by bodyguard8367 (02/26/14 11:15 PM)

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#433049 - 04/30/13 01:46 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: victor-victim]
pufferfish Offline
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That is extremely interesting to me. I would like to discuss this more in PM or open posts.

There was another guy formerly in MS who was apparently a victim of these affairs.

Puffer

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#433050 - 04/30/13 02:03 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
peroperic2009 Offline
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Registered: 10/09/11
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I have some news related to those secret activities back than that among other included Harvard:
"ANOTHER FACET OF Harvard's relationship, past and present, with the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) emerged last week as Dr. Martin T. Orne '48, the director of a Medical School hypnosis research project in the early '60s, outlined how his group unwittingly received $30,000 from the CIA. Last week's disclosure of Orne as the "unidentified researcher" mentioned in a University statement on CIA funding of Harvard projects raises several questions, centering not so much on the hypnosis research--which does not seem to be controversial--as on the University's decision to honor Orne's request to remain unidentified."

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1978/2/11/harvard-and-the-cia-continued-pbabnother/
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#433056 - 04/30/13 02:45 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3425
Loc: O Kanada
it gets even worse!

**TRIGGER WARNING**
*READ AT YOUR OWN RISK*

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2008/04/21/killing_children_a_political_ritual.html
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#433058 - 04/30/13 02:49 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
peroperic2009 Offline
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Registered: 10/09/11
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That it so sad frown
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#433068 - 04/30/13 05:19 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
bodyguard8367 Offline
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Registered: 05/16/12
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Edited by bodyguard8367 (02/26/14 11:15 PM)

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#433070 - 04/30/13 05:23 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
Publius Offline
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I only made it through a handful of these posts before I had to stop. I'll try to make it through them all later but for now I am too upset. Right now my initial reaction says 8 soldiers, 8 rifles, 7 bullets.
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#433097 - 04/30/13 10:12 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3425
Loc: O Kanada
it is almost certain that the perpetrators/predators in most of these cases are traumatized/programmed victims of long-term sexual abuse themselves, who never managed to escape.

many are trapped since childhood in a sick self-perpetuating culture of violence, fear, and intimidation.

and having participated, often unwillingly, in crimes against other children, including rape, recruiting, kidnapping, etc...
these atrocities are filmed in many cases.
this can be held against the sex slaves for blackmail purposes, which forces continued "voluntary" participation until their souls are scarred and scared, and many feel beyond redemption, unworthy of forgiveness, fear reprisal for betraying their abusers, or fear public exposure, prosecution and punishment for what they have done.

you can imagine how deep they are buried spiritually.

this is "stockhold syndrome" and "vampirism" all rolled into one.

this is a very complex generational problem that goes way back in history.

maybe some were born sadistic sociopaths, but i believe most were manufactured and trained.
some, unfortunately, are born into these pedocults.
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#433099 - 04/30/13 10:19 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
cant_remember Offline
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Victor-Victim,

You seem to have a good handle on this issue from an intellectual perspective, which is an amazing thing because it can be so difficult to get one's head around a subject like this.

Cant
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#433112 - 05/01/13 12:17 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
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Victor-Victim

It sounds like you have done some reading and thinking about why perpetrators do what they do.

I wrote a post about my abuser in this location:

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthr...2270#Post422270

Puffer

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#433115 - 05/01/13 01:07 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3425
Loc: O Kanada
the reason i know what i know is because of studying the Franklin Scandal and watching the documentary Conspiracy of Silence.
then i waded through hours and hours of videotaped victim testimony.

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthr...2874#Post432874

this triggered all my hidden memories of my experience with clifford olson, and i recalled how he used me to bring new boys to the jobsite, with the promise of work, which i did, to my eternal shame and guilt.
this was the hardest thing for me to accept and forgive about myself.

i am not excusing what i did.
these were my reasons:

i did it to divert his attentions away from me, but i felt sick about it.
then i felt rejected and jealous when he ignored me and began his seduction routine with them.
then i felt like killing myself for putting these other boys my age at risk.
but i was too chickenshit to warn them.
i had to protect my reputation as a psycho tough guy.
i did not want the other guys to find out i was "gay" or "fag".
that was a dangerous label in Surrey in 1977.
anyone suspected of homosexuality was beaten and bullied mercilessly by gangs of "fagbashers".
i had seen it numerous times.
guys humiliated, forced to eat dogshit, lick boots, just for being effeminate or timid.

i was afraid clifford would kill me or hurt me if i told anyone what happened, or if i failed to comply.
i was worried that i was no longer useful to him.
now that he had already raped me twice, he did not seem to be interested in me anymore.
he was starting to talk very rude and mean to me.
insulting and degrading me, calling me dirty names,
but he kept me by his side most of the time, and never let me out of his control.
if i was recruiting, then i still had value, i reasoned.

i still can't understand why i just didn't run away.
once, after the first rape, i did not show up for work,
i was just sitting there at home, in a zombie robot trance.
unable to act one way or the other.

he called my house, just like any regular employer would,
talked to my mother on the telephone, gave me shit for being late,
and arrived at my house within the hour to pick me up.
when he asked "why didn't you come in today" i wanted to yell,
"because you raped me" but it was like it never happened and i was unable to speak the words,
so i said "i'm sorry, i slept in".
even when we were alone, i could not admit that he had raped me.

he shook my mother's hand and promised her that he was looking after me.
he would make sure i didn't mess up this job,
and that he would "straighten me out". "don't worry".

she was so charmed, and told me what a nice wonderful man he was.
i was lucky to have such an opportunity, such a lenient boss, and i should be more responsible.
it was so normal, i almost laughed out loud.

instead i apologized and he took me straight to a big house in a nice neighbourhood.
he took me downstairs to a sauna, and he raped me a second time.
the man who lived there stayed upstairs.
he seemed not to notice when cliff and i were walking around with nothing but towels on.
clifford insisted i wear a towel, he said my nudity was improper,
that i should "cover up".
although by this time, i did not understand his need for modesty,
considering what he had just done to me.

after this, the subtle threats and insults started.
i could feel his loathing toward me, like it was my fault.
he called me a "slut" for wanting to have sex with him.
then he said i liked it too much.
i remember this made me feel bad, like i had failed or disappointed him.

for the next few days, after meeting him,
my mother gushed about what a sharp dresser he was.
it made me sick that she (a single woman) was obviously attracted to the man who raped her son.
i did not tell her what he really was. i did not want to upset her, or get in trouble.

i did not trust her anyway, because she had already let me down.
when i was 12 i told her that the tenant in our basement suite had been molesting me.
she did nothing, and let him continue to live there, after he denied touching me.
but that is another story.

this is all very disturbing to convey, but it is brutal truth.

any ruthless person can brainwash a kid.
it doesn't take a genius, just a degenerate.
it is a cold science.
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#433156 - 05/01/13 01:15 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3425
Loc: O Kanada
Originally Posted By: cant_remember
Victor-Victim,

You seem to have a good handle on this issue from an intellectual perspective, which is an amazing thing because it can be so difficult to get one's head around a subject like this.

Cant


if only i could get a handle on it from an emotional perspective.
it has proven impossible for me to get my heart around a subject like this.

thank god i did not became one of these sociopaths.
no matter how hard i tried to erase all trace of "weakness" (empathy-conscience-emotion) from my personality, using my "vulcan logic"... i could not rid myself of my humanity.

after decades of detachment, i am still trying to combine my head's comprehension with my heart's compassion.
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#433917 - 05/07/13 07:15 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3425
Loc: O Kanada
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#434648 - 05/14/13 01:10 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: victor-victim]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
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After having given this subject a "rest" for a few weeks, I'm back at it again.

I'm finding more and more references to experiments and hypnotic affects on boys around 12 (my age) in the 1950's. They were interested in controlling human behavior with hypnosis and drugs.

http://www.wanttoknow.info/770721nytimes.ciahumanbehaviorcontrol

http://www.wanttoknow.info/nationbetrayed10pg

Originally Posted By: Nation Betrayed by Carol Rutz

The Central Intelligence Agency [CIA] bought my services at the tender age of four from my grandfather in 1952. Over the next 12 years, I was tested, trained, and used in various ways. Electroshock, drugs, hypnosis, sensory deprivation, and other types of trauma were used to make me compliant and split my personality (create multiple personalities for specific tasks). Each alter or personality was created to respond to a post-hypnotic trigger, then perform an act and not remember it later. This "Manchurian Candidate" program [1] was just one of the operational uses of the mind control scenario by the CIA. Your hard earned tax dollars supported this. P. xvii


http://www.wanttoknow.info/mindcontrol10pg#ciadocs

In another document it says:
Quote:

From 1950 until the 1970s, the CIA collaborated closely with the US Army while conducting LSD and other chemical tests on humans. Experiments were conducted where none of the volunteers gave their ‘informed consent' prior to receiving LSD. There was a deliberate attempt to deny the volunteers any information that would have permitted them to evaluate the dangers involved. Most of the related records have been destroyed. [53] MC 20, 21, 29, 32


I believe my abuser to have been US Army working in conjunction with CIA. I believe I was administered LSD without my knowledge.

And in another document it speaks of experiments in 1951.
Originally Posted By: Mind Control Summary
The Secrets of Mind Control
Based on Three Books by Top Mind Control Researchers

In a general request for volunteers [deleted names] volunteered for H [hypnosis] experimentation and were originally tested on 21 May 1951. Both girls, at this time, were nineteen years of age. These subjects have clearly demonstrated that they can pass from a fully awake state to a deep H controlled state via the telephone, via some very subtle signal that cannot be detected by other persons in the room, and without the other individuals being able to note the change.

http://www.wanttoknow.info/mind_control/cia_mind_control_experiments_sex_abuse

Quote:

Army doctors were actively involved in LSD testing at least until the late 1970's. Subjects of LSD experiments included children as young as five years old, and brain electrodes were implanted in children as young as 11 years of age. Four of the CIA's MKULTRA Subprojects were on children. The mind control doctors included presidents of the American Psychiatric Association and psychiatrists who received full-page obituaries in the American Journal of Psychiatry. Responsibility for the unethical experimentation lies first with the individual doctors, but also collectively with the medical profession, and with academia as a whole. BB 21


Quote:

On 2 July 1951 approximately 1:00 p.m. the instruction began with [deleted] relating to the student some of his sexual experiences. [Deleted] stated that he had constantly used hypnotism as a means of inducing young girls to engage in sexual intercourse with him. [Deleted], a performer in [deleted] orchestra, was forced to engage in sexual intercourse with [deleted] while under the influence of hypnotism. [Deleted] stated that he first put her into a hypnotic trance and then suggested to her that he was her husband and that she desired sexual intercourse with him.

Question: It says this was a girl. Could it have been a lie? Could it have really been a boy? (me)?


Puffer




Edited by pufferfish (05/14/13 02:04 PM)

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#434659 - 05/14/13 02:05 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
SoccerStar Offline
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Puffer,

Take care that you keep your feet on the ground. As you go through the pain of trying to reconstruct your past I would hate to think you were being led astray and fed more unnecessary pain by some crackpot con artist.

WantToKnow is a clearinghouse on 9/11Trutherism, vaccine denialism, anti-NASA conspiracies, cold-fusion hucksterism, despicable phony "cures" for autism, and some business about telepathy thrown in for good measure. The reality of MKUltra and Project Paperclip are ghastly and outlandish enough that they need to be viewed in serious surroundings, or else all the kookery in the background that defies basic foundational facts of physics, avionics, ballistics, biology, and epidemiology rub off on it and sap its credibility too.


Matt
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#434660 - 05/14/13 02:21 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3425
Loc: O Kanada
to: puffer.

take it real careful on this path.
i nearly lost my way several times.
but i understand your need to know.

from my own experience. matt has the right idea.

do not immerse.
do not waste too much time counting the teeth on the shark.
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#434663 - 05/14/13 02:47 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
SoccerStar Offline
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There is a very real chance that the man who molested me - who was born in Germany in 1920 - may very well have been a Nazi. He totally could have been (could still be, since he's still alive). A for-real original arm-saluting Nazi, at some level, any level... a chauffeur, a mailman, a painter, a desk clerk, a Luftwaffe pilot... anything. There were no limits on postwar Nazi immigration to America unless they were in the SS - and even some of those got in too like John Demjanjuk. It is a known fact many wound up in New York. Just going through flea markets makes that clear enough.

But I'll never REALLY know, unless I trek to the National Archives for a paper search, or ask him.

Sometimes, you have to turn away from the rapids, you're cold and wet enough already.


Matt
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#434665 - 05/14/13 03:03 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
Suwanee Offline
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I've followed this thread for quite a while. Johnny Gosch was older than I was, but his disappearance was held out as a cautionary tale at the time.

We lost some of our innocence in the late 70s and early 80s when several high-profile kidnappings took place: Adam Walsh, Johnny Gosch, Etan Patz (who was my age), and closer to home, the so-called "Atlanta Child Murders." It was a very uneasy time. I remember it very well.

Stranger danger was drilled into us. I was so primed to look for alligators that I never noticed the snake in the grass.

Will


Edited by Suwanee (05/14/13 03:10 PM)
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#434666 - 05/14/13 03:13 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
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#434669 - 05/14/13 03:52 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: Suwanee]
SoccerStar Offline
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Originally Posted By: Suwanee
Stranger danger was drilled into us. I was so primed to look for alligators that I never noticed the snake in the grass.


Yeah there was a definite freakout in my neighborhood, in New York, after Etan Patz. It didn't help that I LOOKED LIKE Etan Patz. I distinctly remember being taken to a special room, one class at a time, so the entire student population could get fingerprinted by cops. This was done in my elementary school, where the perp already worked.
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#434698 - 05/14/13 10:23 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: SoccerStar]
pufferfish Offline
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Thanks guys, I appreciate the feedback.

I have to pose this reference:

http://www.lookingglassnews.org/viewcommentary.php?storyid=76

Quote:

... two of her patients who had uncovered memories of being part of extensive CIA brainwashing programs as young children (in one case, starting at age seven). Their brainwashing included torture, rape, electroshock, powerful drugs, hypnosis and death threats. According to their testimony, the CIA then induced amnesia to prevent their recalling these terrifying sessions.


Quote:

they recovered the memories of this CIA program without regression or hypnosis techniques. In other words, these patients spontaneously discovered this information about themselves and their pasts.


Quote:

Children were trained as sex agents, for example, with the job of blackmailing prominent Americans - primarily politicians, businessmen and educators. A great deal of filming was done for this purpose. Eventually, people from the inner core of the CIA program filmed each other, and some of the centres where children were used as sex agents got out of control and turned into CIA-operated sex rings.


Why isn't this stuff covered by the usual media?

Puffer

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#434702 - 05/14/13 10:48 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
SoccerStar Offline
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Because that source is an even worse kook-a-rama of 9/11Truthers, HIV/AIDS deniers, infanticidal anti-vaxers, and Holocaust deniers. Lie down with dogs....
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#434704 - 05/14/13 11:37 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
DavoSwim Offline
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This entire thread hits too close to home. Johnny Gosch's kidnapping occurred very close to my hometown. The Des Moines Register covered this case in detail for a very long time. In addition, another paperboy for the DM Register, Eugene Martin was kidnapped shortly after Johnny Gosch. I have heard Noreen Gosch speak a couple of times about her son and her experience in locating him. It's a very chilling story, one that just stays with you. The effect is pronounced in CSA victims. It's all just too familiar. Noreen is very animated and a great speaker. It's impossible to write her off as a crazy woman who went off the deep end following her son's kidnapping. The facts of her case seem outrageous, but there is enough credibility to send shivers down your spine. Hard to believe it happened thirty years ago and still generates press.

DavO

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#434707 - 05/15/13 12:36 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: DavoSwim]
pufferfish Offline
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I'm sorry that my posts added to your troubles. I just have had all this craziness down inside me since I was 12. Now I begin to see some kind of a plan in it, and I just can't help trying to figure it all out.

Puffer

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#434725 - 05/15/13 08:59 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
cant_remember Offline
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Puffer,

You need to listen to Soccer star on this... as you seek out your research on controversial issues, you need to pay close attention to the sources that you're looking at, especially internet sites, to get a better understanding of their credibility.

It's not worth it to trigger your PTSD and DID with a junk conspiracy site. You need to be more skeptical for your own protection.

Cant
_________________________
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#434743 - 05/15/13 12:24 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
bodyguard8367 Offline
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Edited by bodyguard8367 (02/27/14 03:14 PM)

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#434744 - 05/15/13 12:25 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
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Edited by bodyguard8367 (05/15/13 12:25 PM)
Edit Reason: Duplicate post..oops!

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#435005 - 05/17/13 08:42 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
pufferfish Offline
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Why do I feel a need to answer this?

As a 12-year-old boy I went through something very horrible. I don't urge people to read the story because it is apparently damaging to even read it. But I felt then and I still feel I was abandoned to what happened. I was abandoned by the Boy Scouts of America, whose camp it was. The abuser had an official position there. His name has been redacted from the records released by the Boy Scouts and from other records. I was abandoned by the other boys who abused me there. I was abandoned by my parents who left me there (even though it was apparently unintentional it was perceived by me as an abandonment issue). After I remembered what happened there a victim's advocate told my story to the FBI and they refused to have anything to do with it*. So... I was terribly damaged, whatever the reason. I have experienced lots of pain of different kinds. I could never be the same. I could never be or do lots of things. When other boys and teachers later perceived my damage, they shunned and rejected me. Life with friends and family became terribly difficult. So here I am many years later, trying to figure out what happened to me when I was 12. I have spent thousands of dollars of my own money for psychotherapy (in addition to insurance). Nobody seems to care. I'm trying to figure out if there was a scheme that went beyond the abuse of the one sociopathic man who seemed to have orchestrated all of that abuse. I have limited resources for searching and I have reason to believe that what happened to me and to many other boys has been covered up. Where can I go for information about it? My gut feeling is that it must have happened to lots of other children and that I alone have escaped to tell about it.

Puffer

*I have the letter the victim's advocate wrote me about it.

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#435009 - 05/17/13 09:48 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
cant_remember Offline
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(((( Puffer ))))

That victim advocate letter is from what year?

Cant
_________________________
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#435010 - 05/17/13 09:52 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3425
Loc: O Kanada
i feel so much the same as you, puffer.
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#435013 - 05/17/13 10:25 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
pufferfish Offline
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Originally Posted By: cant_remember

That victim advocate letter is from what year?


I think it's 1988. It's not in front of me right now. It was only a few years after I remembered it.

Puffer

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#435610 - 05/23/13 08:24 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: pufferfish]
pufferfish Offline
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This post is a documentation from 3 highly reliable books that LSD was used on children in the general time period in which I was 12-years-old. I have documented other procedures in previous posts.

I can't actually prove that I was an experimental subject when I was abused at the camp as a twelve-year-old boy in the summer camp. But I have found sources that show that they were thinking about doing the stuff I was subjected to.

In a reliable book: A Question of Torture: CIA Inerrogation, From the Cold War to the War on Terror, by Alfred W. McCoy. It claims that hallucinogens were given to children in summer camps
http://www.amazon.com/Question-Torture-Interrogation-American-Project/dp/0805082484/
Originally Posted By: McCoy 2003, page 29
pumped hallucinogins into children in summer camp


That was in the time frame in which I was a 12-year-old boy and I think I received LSD in summer camp. But the wording suggests that LSD was also given to other children in the same or other summer camps. I have no other knowledge of this. Does the word "pumped" imply that injection was the method of administering the drug? I don't know.

Here is a review of Alfred W. McCoy's book from Amazon.com:
Originally Posted By: Douglas S. Wood in: VINE™ VOICE

Alfred McCoy, a distinguished professor of history at the University of Wisconsin, has long been a thorn in the side of the CIA. In the pages of this brief book McCoy traces the history of modern torture techniques as developed and used by the CIA. The book demonstrates that the Abu Ghraib abuses have roots far beyond the Bush years. The techniques used there are standard operating procedure.

Sensory deprivation, self-infiction of pain, and assault on the cultural mores of the victim are the hallmarks of the techniques. Read this book and then take one look at the infamous Abu Ghraib pictures and you will understand with certainty that the responsibility goes well beyond Lynndie England and the prison guard grunts. They did not come up with these techniques.

McCoy briefly relates that the US historically engaged in systematic torture in the Vietnam Phoenix program and taught Central American governments the CIA methods, to name just two examples. This history was largely ignored in discussions of Abu Ghraib as some commentators simply refused to believe that Americans would do such things.

But does torture work? And if it does, should we use it?

With respect to the efficacy of torture, McCoy quotes a 4th century C.E. Roman legal scholar Ulpian: "the strong will resist and the weak will say anything to end the pain." McCoy also destroys the silly hypotheses about the atomic bomb in Times Square used to justify torture.

McCoy has explained why we, in whose name this torture is performed, should oppose it:

"There's an absolute ban on torture for a very good reason. Torture taps into the deepest recesses, unexplored recesses of human consciousness, where creation and destruction coexist, where the infinite human capacity for kindness and infinite human capacity for cruelty coexist, and it has a powerful perverse appeal, and once it starts, both the perpetrators and the powerful who order them, let it spread, and it spreads out of control."

Highly recommended.




I found another reference to secret use of LSD on children in the book, ACID: A New Secret History of LSD, by David Black, Ken Thomas.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0802130623/

Here is a quote from this book which substantiates my claim:
Originally Posted By: ACID: A New Secret History of LSD by David Black, page 42
At one stage they even considered supplementing the roster of prostitutes with 12-year-old boys but, as one ex-agency source assured John Marks, even in the CIA mind control department, 'the idea of a 12-year-old boy was more than anyone could stomach.'


This would be funny if it weren't so sad. Who can control the mind of a 12-year-old boy?

The context of this quote is that some high-level committee was talking about using LSD as a drug to manipulate human behavior. They set up a room in San Francisco where (female) prostitutes could administer sex and LSD in an attempt to produce blackmail photography. The room had two-way mirrors so they could observe and photograph the effects. They also had one of these in Greenwich Village in NY. They apparently considered using 12-year-old boys instead of or in addition to (adult female) prostitutes, but rejected the idea.

There is another book: The Search for the "Manchurian Candidate": The CIA and Mind Control: The Secret History of the Behavioral Sciences, by John D. Marks.

http://www.amazon.com/Search-Manchurian-Candidate-Behavioral-Sciences/dp/0393307948/

Originally Posted By: review by Reticuli of this book in Amazon.com
5.0 out of 5 stars Excellent Research. June 10, 2000


John Marks is an excellent researcher. MK Ultra is an extremely dark chapter in the history of the intelligence, military, and R&D community. There are some troubling insights that I feel compelled to repeat here. First, this covert community destroyed an enormous amount of their records and documentation on secret activities in the late 60's and early 70's. They obviously destroyed the most damning portion of the paper trail. Yet out of the relatively benign information still available, we get proof of unethical conduct and allusions of possible illegal acts. There is even a hint that research was conducted on microwaves, ultrasonic, and electrical stimulation of the brain. There's little or no information on what was discovered in *these* subjects, or even whether the activities were truly halted. We now have indication that the military just so happens to have data on the use of sub & ultra sonics in nonleathal weapons. It's possible that the information, and possibly even current MK Ultra influenced research, is still around. I've heard military personnel say most of the very sensitive research does not occur on the CIA operative level, but in subcontractors and middle management who keep their own research records and staff.

Didn't Sirhan Sirhan say he'd been in a hypnotic trance? Did he say this before MK Ultra was revealed, or after? I wonder...


Originally Posted By: John D. Marks in: The Search For the Manchurian Candidate
page 104

CIA in Berlin ... felt prostitutes could be a prime source of intelligence.
...
a good number of case officers wanted no part of homosexual entrapment operations. And to go a step further, he recalls one senior KGB man who told too many sexual jokes about young boys. "It didn't take too long to recognize that he was more than a little fascinated by youths,".....
....
'As a psychological observer, you're probably quite right. But what the hell are we going to do about it? Where are we going to get a twelve-year-old boy?'"

The source believes that if the Russian had had a taste for older men, U.S. intelligence might have mounted an operation, "but the idea of a twelve-year-old boy was just more just more than anybody could stomach."


I'm quoting these reputable sources to demonstrate that they were considering the use of the twelve-year-old boy with LSD in obtaining information from sources.

I was twelve-years-old at the time of my trauma. I believe that I may have been at least one of the boys they studied to produce their report. I believe I was also given LSD. I am suggesting that my abuser at summer camp used me as an experimental subject in pursuit of their objective of obtaining a mind control subject.

Puffer



Edited by pufferfish (05/28/13 11:16 AM)

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#443835 - 08/09/13 10:48 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: pufferfish]
pufferfish Offline
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It's me again!

I have found a book which really seems to pin down what happened to me that summer in 1951. The pattern of what happened seems to agree substantially with what happened to other children in that time period.

One 4-year-old girl was sold by her grandfather to the CIA for experimentation purposes. She went through terrible torture and programming to give her several dissociated identities. She is still alive today and has written a book which describes her ordeal and the work on other children. Her time frame begins in the same time as mine.

The book is:

A Nation Betrayed (The Chilling True Story of Secret Cold War Experiments Performed on Our Children and Other Innocent People), by Carol Rutz

So then, here was another child who experienced far worse than I did and in the same time frame. So, I am not crazy. I didn't make it up. My report is substantiated by the reports of others who were children and tortured and abused in the same way.

Don't buy the book from Amazon. It is available much more cheaply ($20) from the publisher's website:
Fidelity Publishing LLC.
P.O. Box 365
Grass Lake, MI 49240-0365

I can't tell you how much this encourages me.

My story is Pufferfish story part 5. (don't read it unless you are an adult and feeling strong)
http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthr...9028#Post219028

Puffer






Edited by pufferfish (08/09/13 10:57 AM)

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#443861 - 08/09/13 04:39 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: pufferfish]
pufferfish Offline
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Originally Posted By: pufferfish

I have found a book which really seems to pin down what happened to me that summer in 1951. The pattern of what happened seems to agree substantially with what happened to other children in that time period.

The book is:

A Nation Betrayed (The Chilling True Story of Secret Cold War Experiments Performed on Our Children and Other Innocent People), by Carol Rutz


The man who abused me is never named, even though this book gives the names of many important officials, some with international reputations. It does talk about a mysterious individual whom the author calls "deleted". He was very important in all of those proceedings. "Deleted" began a course in hypnotism on July 2, 1951, she said. That was the Monday following the 2 weeks of terror I had experienced, ending the previous Saturday. That would have been good timing. He began the course by bragging about how he had free access to "intercourse" with a girl through using hypnotic suggestion.

So, the question is, why would a certain individual never be named in any of the books or resources, even though lots of other infamous people's names are freely given? Could it be that he had a name they were all afraid of releasing? I think that "deleted" was my abuser.

Puffer





Edited by pufferfish (08/09/13 04:49 PM)

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#443955 - 08/10/13 01:28 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
bodyguard8367 Offline
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Edited by bodyguard8367 (02/27/14 03:15 PM)

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#443968 - 08/10/13 04:44 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: bodyguard8367]
pufferfish Offline
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Originally Posted By: bodyguard8367
"deleted"
"Redacted"

I don't understand why one perp would be singled out for anonymity in the face of so many who are named.



These are interesting questions to me. I think I will try to contact the book's author. Why do I think his name is given as "deleted"? Because his father is/was super important in the history of U.S. during 20th Century. They have a powerful lot of pride in those things. They would have to re-write some history books.

There are numerous names developed in the book. Joseph Mengele, who performed experiments on the author of the book when she was only 4-years-old. He named himself Dr. Black in the United States and when programming children. The author of this book was only one of the children he experimented on. Other stories are presented. Some are very gross.

Dr. Ewen Cameron also performed terrible experiments. Sidney Gottlieb also figured. These men had no regard whatsoever for the children they were working on. They were merely laboratory rats. I was treated similarly.

I was abused under the same type of regimen (pufferfish story part 5). I was not given electro-shock as the camp had minimal electrical supplies. Instead of that my abuser used physical torture, sexual abuse, sexual humiliation, observation of another boy killed (presumably), isolation, sleep deprivation, physical restraint, nudity, starvation and what I believe was LSD. It went on about 12 days after the initial encounters. The abuser was not a "nice" person. The objective of what they were doing was to reduce the subject to a level where their sense of self goes down to almost zero. At that point the subject was susceptible to hypnotic suggestion which would allow them to be programed by hypnosis into certain modes of behavioral modification. I was told (programmed) not to remember what was done. I was also told that if I remembered and talked about it, that I would have to pull the plug on myself. I was also told that if I ever told about it I would be found and killed.

All of this seems to fit fairly well into the pattern of the atrocities this book describes as performed by Dr. Black (Joseph Mengele*) on American children.

Puffer

* Joseph Mengele infamous from Auschwitz, was thought to have escaped to South America after the war. Whereas this was probably true, he spent a lot of time in the U.S. under a cryptic identity. He was involved in sadistic experimentation on children in the U.S. Some of his "efforts" are described in the book under consideration.


Edited by pufferfish (08/10/13 04:47 PM)

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#444054 - 08/11/13 08:59 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: pufferfish]
pufferfish Offline
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Finding that book on how children were programmed and used in experiments has given me a range of new ideas on what happened to me.

When I was a new arrival at the Boy Scout camp Roosevelt, all of the boys were required to undress and one-by-one go before the camp doctor, who would stick his finger into the scrotum. Then we were supposed to caugh. This was supposedly a test for a rupture, although we had been given this test by our family doctor before being admitted to the camp.

After I began to be abused I tried to resist by telling the camp doctor, the same one who had given us the rupture exam. So I went to him and told him that the "counselor had made me suck his cock". He asked me: "What camp are you in?" I replied: "Eagle Camp". He said he would attend to it. But the abuse became much, much worse.

Now I think I have found a picture of the camp doctor, or at least of someone who looked a great deal like him.



Who is the one pictured? He is Dr. Mengele, or Dr. Black as he was known in USA. He was Dr. Death at Auschwitz during the war. He would have been 40 years old at the time I saw him.

Now that I know that he was probably present in the US at that time, it seems possible it might have been him. If so, it establishes that my abuser in the camp and Dr. Black were already working together.

Here is a picture of some of his experimental subjects at Auschwitz.


Puffer



Edited by pufferfish (08/11/13 09:54 PM)

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#444058 - 08/11/13 09:30 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3425
Loc: O Kanada
puffer,
this is intense recall and revelation.
are these memories just beginning to surface in the last while,
or have they always been there but blurry?
the scale of this boggles the mind.
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#444064 - 08/11/13 10:00 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: victor-victim]
pufferfish Offline
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Victor-victim

I remembered the abuse at the summercamp in a series of strong chains of memories when I was in my mid-forties (almost 30 years ago).

The memories came forth in dazzling reality, almost like moving photographs or videos with voices and scenes and violent emotions.

Now that I have discovered the book on this subject, I realize that the author, Carol Rutz, had the same kind of explosive return of memories. She even has a name for it: Abreaction. I felt very damaged and raw after remembering the stuff.

Puffer



Edited by pufferfish (08/11/13 11:20 PM)

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#444136 - 08/12/13 08:36 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: pufferfish]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
Why do I care?

Why can't I just forget it?

I was a sweet little boy when that extraordinary abuse began. I still had a lot of innocence. My science teacher wrote in my yearbook: "To the innocent little angel..."

But what had been done to me would gradually work its way to the surface and ruin my life.

How many were subjected to it? I don't know, but I think a lot. Has it stopped? I doubt it. Those who did it were drunk with power and control. They were able to seize an apparent motive of national interest, but in reality it was just the opposite. It was something our nation would have to be ashamed of. Something which they still must answer for.

Josef Mengele tortured and abused hundreds or thousands of children in the most horrible way. He did that to the author of the book I'm currently reading.* She got to know him pretty well as he performed heinous acts upon her. She describes him as one of the most wicked men of the 20th century(including Adolf Hitler). He was able to project an exterior of:

Originally Posted By: New York Times via Wikipedia

A former Auschwitz prisoner doctor has said:

He was capable of being so kind to the children, to have them become fond of him, to bring them sugar, to think of small details in their daily lives, and to do things we would genuinely admire.... And then, next to that,... the crematoria smoke, and these children, tomorrow or in a half-hour, he is going to send them there. Well, that is where the anomaly lay.[23]

The book Children of the Flames, by Lucette Matalon Lagnado and Sheila Cohn Dekel, chronicles Mengele's medical experimental activities on approximately 1,500 pairs of twins who passed through the Auschwitz death camp during World War II until its liberation at the end of the war. By the 1980s only 100 sets of these twins could be located. Many recalled his friendly manner towards them, and his gifts of chocolates. The older ones "recognized his kindness as a deception—yet another of his perverse experiments to test (our) mental endurance."[24] He would also kill them without hesitation, sometimes administering injections to the children or shooting them himself, and would dissect them immediately afterwards. On one evening alone he killed fourteen twins...


We know little of the one who was responsible for abusing me. My story is in: Pufferfish story part 5. (Don't read it unless you're an adult and feeling strong). He was apparently able to somehow keep his name out of history so far, and is known in the book* only as "deleted". It will come out. Was he involved in bringing Josef Mengele to this country where he could propagate his insidious and devilish techniques of programming children? He's dead now, but this is one of the reasons I feel I have to look into this.

What else did he do? How many did he abuse? To what extent did he work with Dr. Mengele in the "programming" of children in the way I was "programmed".

How many bore a life-long pain because of what he did to them?

Puffer

* A Nation Betrayed (The Chilling True Story of Secret Cold War Experiments Performed on Our Children and Other Innocent People), by Carol Rutz



Edited by pufferfish (08/12/13 09:06 PM)

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#444160 - 08/13/13 12:25 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: pufferfish]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3425
Loc: O Kanada
aside from everything else you said,
which is absolutely mind blowing,
the questions stood out.

Originally Posted By: pufferfish
Why do I care?

Why can't I just forget it?


for me,
why do i care?
i care because the memory is a part of me.

but, i know that what happened,
however horrible,
is only a memory, now.
a thought.
it's already behind me.
it's over.
it can't hurt me.

i can't forget it.
because it has already shaped me.

but, who i am is not only based on those events,
i am also a sum total of all my experiences.

i love who i am.
therefore i embrace my personal history,
including the extreme meganegativity.
_________________________
Victor|Victim

War
Love
Poetry

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#444164 - 08/13/13 01:02 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
SoccerStar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
Puffer,

I'm going to ask a stupid question and one you might have already addressed, but.....

Since you have this man's name, place of employment, year(s) he worked there, and probable place he lived (since he stalked you to your home), can you work with a PI to find out more about him? Track him to other jobs and see if there was a trail of victims? Does that camp or Scouting troupe still exist?

I found the man who assaulted me by calling the school and claiming that in THAT YEAR I was a student who had *victimized HIM* - that I'd lived a life of crime overall and that had included stealing that poor unfortunate innocent man's property and, oh, how guilty I felt now that I was on the recovery plan's numbered step of "apologize to those you've hurt," and could they in any way help me get in touch with him to try to make amends or at least return it to him? A town, an email, a next-of-kin, anything....? Just a full name and a past residence was enough to get me EVERYTHING on him and his immediate family. There are also lots of online genealogy databases (and hobbyist forums devoted to them) that can be useful too.
_________________________
My story

"Don't think it hasn't been a little slice of heaven just because it hasn't!" --Bugs Bunny

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#444215 - 08/13/13 02:41 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: SoccerStar]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
Those are excellent suggestions.

I'm working on the ID and his timeline. Cant_remember has helped me. One of my problems has been an incredible fear of this individual. I had this terrible fear which didn't begin to diffuse until I saw his obituary. He died in December of 2011.

Consider that he tortured and raped me etc. for about 2 weeks and then programmed me to "never tell". I was told that if I ever remembered and talked about it, I would have to pull the plug on myself and/or he would find me and do it.

I must talk to the author, Carol Rutz, and see what she knows about this. Why did she leave his name as "deleted" in her brilliant book where she otherwise gives the names of just about everybody else who was involved, good and bad. For instance, her book is the best reference I have found on the activities of Josef Mengele after WWII. "Deleted" was probably involved in what became the NSA. Do I trust the NSA? No... For one thing, if "deleted" was who I think he was, then giving his name becomes a high-stakes venture. It has all kinds of consequences if I'm wrong, even though he's dead. I have confided his name to several persons in personal messages. He was not an ordinary person and had enough power to control the use of his name in all kinds of sources. I have not been able to find his name in any documents after about 1950. He would probably have been delighted to hear me say he was powerful. Otherwise I have found a lot of information, for instance, books he helped write about his father. His Amazon Wishlist, etc.

Puffer



Edited by pufferfish (08/13/13 02:50 PM)

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#444216 - 08/13/13 03:08 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
peroperic2009 Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 3617
Loc: South-East Europe
Just to add that there could be legal issues why someone is not mentioned with his/her identity in book, article or similar.
But I guess if he/she died than circumstances changed.

I heard for some rings of abusive people that never use real names and even some victims are imprisoned for long time or even parts of such "families" they don't know for many facts if any. Some of them never seen id or some other such document even they went to schools and colleges.

It looks like those monsters have gone trough some military style training when they are capable to control in such systematic way group of people for so long time.

Pero
_________________________
My story

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#444250 - 08/13/13 10:02 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: peroperic2009]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
Thanks

Yes, it was military.

Puff

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#444296 - 08/14/13 01:36 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: pufferfish]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
The baby-face doctor Mengele of Auschwitz (Dr. Black in US), whom I now believe was the camp doctor of the scout camp in 1951:



More of his experimental subjects:

[Image removed by ModTeam.]

http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp118/Bunglebreath/Abuse/gem_1_zps9705542a.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

A photo of the one who abused me at summercamp. I'm calling him "deleted" for now.


More recent picture


Now I'm concerned that they purchased my services for additional experiments.

Major "deleted" visited my home at least once that I know of. It was in about November after the summercamp. Did he arrange for me to be in more experiments?

My parents told me that I was to be taken to an ancient ear-nose-throat hospital in Washington DC for a tonsillectomy/adenoidectomy, even though I had that 10 years previously. We arrived at the depressing hospital. My parents put me through the doorway to the reception desk and left, almost as though they were ashamed to watch. I was put in a rickety wheelchair, probably dating from the civil war. I was taken to a bed.

During the operation I was under the impression that things were being done to me. I never understood. I was partially awake (patients with DID or MPD often have alters who don't respond to anesthetic properly-Some alters remain awake during operations-I was given extra ether to put me down). I have had the impression for a long time that I was sexually abused during the procedure. I think there was something else that happened. I think there was some kind of experiment being done on my head. I don't know what it was.

Afterward I felt sick from ether. I smelled it for 6 weeks. I couldn't talk properly. I could only talk in a raspy whisper. It didn't get better. It hung on for 3 1/2 years. My problems got worse.

The hospital is no longer there. The doctor was a wretched old man even then.

Does anybody have any ideas? Was I fantasizing or did something happen?

Puffer





Edited by ModTeam (11/12/13 10:16 PM)
Edit Reason: Triggering image.

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#444361 - 08/15/13 01:37 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
traveler Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3488
Loc: somewhere in Africa
Puffer -

i was going to send this as a PM but your box is full.
but i guess - after all the other things i've posted - this won't seem as personally vulnerable as some of them.

this is in response to your questions, "Does anybody have any ideas? Was I fantasizing or did something happen?"

please forgive me if i am off-base with this - i do not wish to offend you.

i am going to tell you something that really freaked me out. it is so weird that i didn't want to post it on the forums and had told only one other person before this. it made me doubt my own sanity briefly - and made me seriously question the reliability of my senses.

my current avatar is "David with the Head of Goliath," by Caravaggio. He is one of my favorite artists and this is a painting i was hoping to see when in Florence this past June. That did not happen - but i did see another David & Goliath painting - by Reni - that i posted about. i also bought post cards of both that painting and also my original avatar - Caravaggio's "Abraham Sacrificing Isaac" - which i did see there - and have them framed for my room. i know they are kind of creepy pictures to sleep with - but they both relate very directly to periods of my life and recovery.

anyway - here is the weird part: when i was in the museum looking at the painting of David & Goliath, i was impressed with how the eyes of Goliath seemed to be looking straight at me. later, reading the guide book, i noticed that his eyes were closed. i looked more closely at the post card. his eyes are definitely closed there too.

i was so sure that the painting showed the eyes open that i looked it up online to see if there were two versions of this subject by the same artist and maybe the reproductions got mixed up for the book and post card. it turns out that there were two versions - but in both versions - though the head of Goliath was turned different directions, the eyes were unmistakably closed.

i had a very hard time believing what was right in front of me. i was so certain that i saw them open.

here is what i think happened: i was primed for seeing one of the Caravaggio versions - he did at least four - and in three of them the eyes are open. i must have transposed the vivid memory of one of those paintings that i was fervently hoping to see onto the canvas that was before me - producing a hybrid vision of what was actually there and what i was anticipating.

the reason i am telling this story is not to discount your conjectures and attempt to cause you to doubt your conclusions - but to suggest another possible explanation.

i know that what i saw was the truth - the head with the open eyes really exists. the painting that i saw with the eyes closed really exists. somehow my mind combined or telescoped those two truths into one image. in one way, i was deceiving myself. in another way - i was perceiving the truth as i knew and understood it.

so i would suggest a degree of caution - perhaps the truth you have remembered is not exactly the literal, factual, historical truth as it would have been seen by an objective observer. but perhaps it is the essential truth as your mind and memory could grasp it.

for what it's worth...
lee
_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


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#444809 - 08/20/13 04:31 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: traveler]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
I've read a couple of books about this by now. I'm even more convinced that what I experienced was the first stage of creation of this business of creating a bunch of secret slaves. It was in the very beginning of it (1951) and they didn't have clear objectives and procedures then. I think the last evening (Friday) of the camp, I was probably given LSD and perhaps another drug. I don't think they were very clear about the effects of LSD then and my suspicions are that it didn't work well with me in whatever dosage was given. I probably went nuts but I'm not sure. Then their time was up. I'm glad if I failed in the program.

Puffer

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#447191 - 09/14/13 01:25 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: pufferfish]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
This is funny:

By now I've done enough reading on this subject that I know that "they" were trying to develop drugs and methods to provoke confessions from people. Or they were trying to make people reveal their secrets.

Now I wonder, if the guy who worked on me was trying to experiment with some of those truth drugs. If I had started to "confess" as a 12-year-old boy, it would have been like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5UG7ISJfP0

Puffer

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#447419 - 09/17/13 12:31 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
dogman Offline
New Here

Registered: 12/20/07
Posts: 12
Have you heard about ltc aquino, from the Franklin case? He was not only military intelligence he was also a satanist. He started his own church because Anton Laveys wasn't evil enough.

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#447426 - 09/17/13 02:55 AM m.aquino research [Re: dogman]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3425
Loc: O Kanada

WARNING TRIGGERS!

dear dogman,


i got some links on m.aquino
http://www.rachane.org/Vitae.html

Michael Aquino holds a Ph.D. in political science and is a U.S. Army Reserve officer with a background in psychological warfare.
Ethical, responsible Michael Aquino was accused by the U.S. Army CID on August 11, 1989 of "Conspiracy, Kidnapping, Sodomy, Indecent Acts or Liberties With a Child, False Swearing, Intentional Noncompliance With Article 30 Uniform Code of Military Justice, Maltreatment of a Subordinate and Conduct Unbecoming an Officer," in connection with the Presidio charges.
The reason for this investigation and the CID decision are the facts that point to plaintiff's sexual abuse.
The victim, a 4 year old girl, "in a completely public setting, identifies … a man who sodomized her" and forced her to "place her mouth on his penis."
She claimed to know the accused as "Mikey" and identified the wife as "Shamby".
After Aquino sued the Army to have his name stricken from the the report, the court investigated and a decision was handed down by the Commanding General of the Army CID on September 28, 1990: "Plaintiff remains titled for Conspiracy, Kidnapping, Sodomy, Indecent Acts and False Swearing."
Aquino’s pleas of innocence notwithstanding, there is little doubt that molestation occurred at the Presidio.
The serious harms inflicted upon the children at Presidio were documented by Diane Ehrensaft Ph.D.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1037/h0079332/abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=1580341&dopt=Citation
On Aug. 14, 1987, the San Francisco Police staged a raid on the Russian Hills home of Lt. Col. Michael Aquino, an active duty U.S. Army Reserve officer, and his wife Lilith.
The raid was in response to allegations that Aquino's home had been the scene of a brutal child rape of a four-year-old girl.
The principal suspect in the child molestation, a Baptist Minister named Gary Hambright, was indicted in September 1987 on charges that he committed "lewd and lascivious acts" with six boys and four girls ranging in age from three to seven years old.
Police believe Hambright was responsible for 58 separate incidents of child rape.
At the time of the alleged incidents, Hambright was employed at a child-care center servicing the U.S. Army base at Presidio.
According to an article in the Oct. 30, 1987 issue of the San Francisco Examiner, one of the victims had identified Lt.Col. Aquino and his wife as participants in the child rape.
According to the victim, the Aquinos had filmed scenes of the child being fondled by Hambright, in a bathtub at the Aquinos' Russian Hills home.
The child's detailed description of the house in which the incident had occurred led police to the Aquino residence, which doubled as a Temple, where they confiscated 38 videotapes, photo negatives and other evidence that the home had been the hub of a pedophile ring operating in and around the army base.
For reasons that still remain cloudy, Aquino and his wife were never indicted.
Quote:
"This is an action brought pursuant to the Privacy Act of 1974, 5 U.S.C. S
552a(g), in which plaintiff alleges that the U.S. Army Criminal Investigation
Command (CID) has refused to amend a Report of Investigation (ROI) which
states that plaintiff was the subject of an investigation for sexual child
abuse and related crimes."

"1. Plaintiff Michael A. Aquino is a Lieutenant Colonel (LTC) in the United
States Army Reserve. His name appears in the title block of a CID report of
investigation (ROI) for indecent acts with a child and related offenses.
Government Exhibit (G.E.) D at 1-4."

"5. FBI Agent Foreman interviewed K at 9 P.M. the next day, August 13th.
She told him that "Mikey wears Army clothes like my daddies [sic]", and that
"Mikey" put his penis into her mouth, bottom, and vagina just like "Mr.
Gary." K also told FBI Agent Foreman that she went with "Mr. Gary" (Gary Hambright) to
his house and "Mikey" and "Shamby" were there. Id. at 9. K told her
mother that "Mikey" was the "blood man," because he had put blood on her and
licked it off."
http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl@listserv.aol.com/msg51965.html
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/news_of_great_interest_page_v.htm
http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/viewtopic.php?t=12476&p=122400
https://www.realliberalchristianchurch.o...-wikipedia.html


TV appearances

Michael Aquino on Oprah Winfrey Show
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpaotRvwoJ0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCvP9OdGySw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRQ8UvkoyXY
http://vimeo.com/66639855

Michael Aquino on Geraldo Rivera Show
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCvP9OdGySw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0muY2VmyDPI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCOF2WmNHOk


from left to right:
Michael Aquino - founder of church of set
http://www.rachane.org/Vitae.html
https://xeper.org/maquino/

Sammy Davis Jr - entertainer
http://www.sammydavis-jr.com/
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0002035/

Anton Lavey - founder of church of satan
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0491989/bio?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm
http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/LaVeyBiography.html




Quote:
I also re-wrote the Star Wars events as part of The Dark Side. George Lucas danced around some interesting themes - initiation, political systems - without actually getting into them. Not surprising for a movie intended or 13-year-olds, of course. He "went into" these things in his se/prequels one way; The Dark Side did so in an entirely different way. The other difference is that he made $zillions; I made $0. ;\)

[Forry offered to pay me for the TDS extract he published in Famous Monsters; I of course said no. I had since heard that that issue #148 of FM brings ridiculous amounts on the secondary market [addendum: it's now down to $18 or so on eBay]; the entire TDS is free on my webpage, obviously.]
http://www.rachane.org/docs/DarkSide.pdf
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

http://www.the600club.com/topic68915-2.html

In her book "The New Satanists" author Linda Blood writes...
"I bought a science-fiction fan magazine containing a story by one Michael Aquino based on the movie Star Wars.
I was captivated by the story's unusual twists and turns on the characters and events and by its strange, melancholy emotional tone, which touched the intensely romantic part of me that I rarely showed to others.
I steeped my imagination in that story for three months before I wrote to the author.
Unfortunately for me, he wrote back, and we began a correspondence
."
During this correspondence, he revealed he was involved with the Temple of Set.
Blood, who claims she had no prior interest in the occult, immersed herself in the Temple.
In June 1979 she attended one of its annual conclaves and met Aquino in person for the first time.
Blood's marriage ended that year.
She claims she and Aquino became lovers during a trip to Washington.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/46148355/Linda-Blood-The-New-Satanists-1994
http://www.uploady.com/download/CwuPFDEAgV/Linda-Blood-The-New-Satanists-1994-pdf
http://www.amazon.com/The-New-Satanists-Linda-Blood/dp/0446364738
http://swallowingthecamel.blogspot.ca/2011/08/prodigal-witch-xiv-linda-blood.html
http://www.whale.to/c/sataniccrime.pdf
According to Arthur Lyons in his book "Satan Wants You: The Cult of Devil Worship in America", Michael Aquino claims magic is based on the ability to "control people without their realizing how or why they are being controlled".
No illegal activities have been ascribed to the Temple of Set, although in 1989 Aquino and his wife and high priestess, Lilith, were the objects of a multi-jurisdictional investigation of ritual child molestations in northern California. No charges have been filed.
http://www.amazon.com/Satan-Wants-You-Worship-America/dp/0892962178
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/37904474/Satanism-A-Taste-for-the-Dark-Side
http://www.geocities.com/athens/parthenon/7069/satan-1.html

be warned:
enter at your own risk!
http://forums.militarytimes.com/showthread.php?1596167-Hello-from-Michael-Aquino
https://xeper.org//maquino/nm/AquinoVitae.pdf
http://www.scribd.com/doc/31856111/Child-Abuse-sanctioned-Mae-Brussel-and-Michael-Aquino
https://xeper.org/maquino/
https://xeper.org//maquino/nm/PSFSummary.pdf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PA-WeW3LADs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkjUoxCXR8U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5zfrdwh1QY
http://aconstantineblacklist.blogspot.ca/2007/08/michael-aquino-revisited-was-he-guilty.html
http://davidshurter.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Doug-Millar-vs-Lt.-Col.-Michael-Aquino.pdf
http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/957/139/2044/
Paul E. Vallely co-authored a 1980 paper with then PSYOP analyst Michael Aquino entitled
"From PSYOP to MindWar: The Psychology of Victory".
http://www.markdice.com/documents/MindWar_co_authored_by_Michael%20Aquino.pdf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7HY_KcvSlk
http://thepatriotsnews.com/indx.php/content/145
"MIND WAR" co-author Paul E. Vallely is a West Point Graduate US Army Major General. He has over fifteen (15) years experience in Special Operations, Psychological and Civil-Military Operations. He is a member and founder of the Iran Policy Committee. He was the senior military analyst for the Fox News Channel from 2000-2007. His new book, “Operation Sucker Punch” was released in January 2009. He is Chairman of Stand Up America and Co-Chairman of Veteran Defenders of America.
http://www.patriotsunion.org/veterans-council.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLj12znQSNI
http://thepatriotsnews.com/indx.php/content/190
http://www.iranpolicy.org/scholarsandfellows.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpIbZpPXJB0
http://www.intelligencesummit.org/home/gen-paul-e-vallely/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghpkN_kzU3s (PART ONE)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_shKfua3bs (PART TWO)
http://www.standupamericaus.org/about-sua/general-vallely/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it0ub_u5xxk
http://www.vallely.com/general.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnoC_3Qznbc
http://thepatriotsnews.com/indx.php/content/176
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8F6p9LB1KU
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/98657939/Cheneys-Spoon-Benders-Pushing-Nuclear-Armageddon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTMv2XAUHP4
http://thepatriotsnews.com/indx.php/content/204
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KzSJ0UrMcA
http://www.wnd.com/2010/06/164409/
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/search?q=vallely
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU5s4Kw1sPQ
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/...ndonesia-Hawaii
http://politicalwire.com/archives/2012/05/17/literary_agent_says_1991_booklet_was_a_mistake.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x785713
http://khprvod.org/2009/12/khpr-003-dr-michael-aquino-founder-of-the-temple-of-set/
http://theglobalelite.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/MindWar_co_authored_by_Michael-Aquino.pdf
http://vaticproject.blogspot.ca/2013/06/update-response-by-general-aquino-to.html
http://www.outpost-of-freedom.com/aquino01.htm
http://www.outpost-of-freedom.com/aquino02.htm
http://www.rense.com/general61/satanism2.htm

The Temple of Set was consecrated in Santa Barbara, California during the summer solstice night of 21 – 22 June 1975, by Michael A. Aquino, in a "greater black magic" ritual that resulted in what believers regard as an inspired text titled The Book of Coming Forth by Night.

The main founder, Michael Aquino, had joined the Church of Satan in 1969 and had risen rapidly in the church's hierarchy. Aquino has stated that he believed LaVey to not be merely a charismatic leader or philosopher, but to have been actually appointed by Satan himself (referring to this charismatic authority as the "Infernal Mandate") to found the church. After the split of 1975, Aquino believed LaVey had lost the mandate, which the "Prince of Darkness" then transferred to Aquino and his new organization, the Temple of Set.
http://www.satanism.50megs.com/library/rebocfbn.html
http://www.balanone.info/rebocfbn.html
http://cd.textfiles.com/thegreatunsorted/texts/txtfiles_misc/TEMP/BOCFBY.TXT
https://xeper.org//maquino/nm/COS.pdf
https://xeper.org//maquino/nm/TOSd11.pdf
https://xeper.org/pub/pub_about.html
http://www.balanone.info/bloodbk.html
http://www.the600club.com/topic76318-1.html
http://www.textfiles.com/occult/OTO/bnwts_sa.txt




FULL TEXT OF LETTER

Letter to Ted Gunderson by Michael A. Aquino

Dear Ted:

My attention has just been called to a paper of yours entitled the “Rusty Nelson/Kelly Ford Report – 28 June 2000, published on the Internet.

(http://educate-yourself.org/cn/rustynelsonkellyfordreport28jun00.shtml)

Without any attempt to even ask me about such topics, you have included as “facts” – even without the journalistic dodge-word “alleged” – numerous lies concerning me. I am surprised and disappointed at this. I thought we had sufficient mutual trust and respect to preclude such conduct.

The passages in question are quoted and annotated below. I would appreciate your removing them from your paper, on that website and elsewhere, immediately. A published apology to me would also be appreciated, and would speak to your professional ethics.
- ———————————————————————–
“Michael Aquino split from Antoine La Vey in 1975 and in the same year, founded his own satanic organization known as the Temple of Set, according to a document of the California ‘Office of Criminal Justice Planning: Research Update, State of California, Volume 1 (6), Winter, 1989-1990&#8242; entitled ‘Occult Crime: A Law Enforcement Primer’.”
- ———————————————————————–
The name is spelled “Anton LaVey”. The Temple of Set does not believe in “Satan” [or any other element of Judaeo-Christian mythology], as has been made exhaustively clear in numerous interviews and public statements.

Your citing an “Occult Crime” document as a reference concerning the Temple of Set and myself, without any clarification that neither the Temple nor I have committed any crimes, is misleading and defamatory. You could fairly have quoted the Temple of Set’s 1975 incorporation papers from the California Secretary of State’s office if you wished a California government reference to the Temple’s founding.
-———————————————————————–
“Noreen Gosch found out that Michael La Vey was involved in the crimes perpetrated against her son, Johnny when Noreen Gosch met with Paul Bonacci in the Nebraska prison in 1991.”
- ———————————————————————–
[I assume that you meant to write "Michael Aquino" rather than "Michael LaVey"; there is no "MLV".] This presents Noreen Gosch’s lie as unquestioned truth, when it is pure fiction.
- ———————————————————————–
“Bonacci told Noreen Gosch that 14 days after Johnny was kidnapped, known Satanist Colonel Michael Aquino came to the house outside of Sioux City Iowa, where Johnny had been kept since the kidnapping. Michael Aquino, then a Colonel in the Army, paid several thousand dollars to the kidnappers, took Johnny and left for Colorado with him.”
- ———————————————————————–
A complete lie by Bonacci [if in fact Gosch did not fabricate this herself]. I never made any such trip or visit, never paid any money at any time in my life to kidnappers for any reason whatever, and have never had any contact whatever with any Gosch, nor with Bonacci.
- ———————————————————————–
“In March of 1998, when Johnny Gosch came to his mother’s home in the middle of the night, he told his mother about his abduction and named Colonel Michael Aquino as a central perpetrator. Aquino was then an officer in the military reputedly in charge of ‘Operation Mind War’ for the U.S. government. ‘Operation Mind War’ was a sub-project of ‘Project MK-Ultra’ which grew out of ‘Operation Paperclip’. ‘Operation Paperclip’ was a covert operation in which large numbers of Nazi scientists were brought to the United States from the Nazi death camps of World War II to learn from their techniques of torture, drugs, hypnosis, mind control, and genetic experimentation for covert operations.”
- ———————————————————————–
A complete lie by whichever Gosch invented it. There is not/never has been any “Operation Mind War” in the U.S. government. Back in the 1970s I co-authored a paper entitled “MindWar” as an entirely open, nonclassified discussion on the U.S. Army’s psychological operations capabilities. During the “SRA” hysteria of the 1980s, assorted cranks tried to make a public issue out of this paper just because of its catchy title. There was no “issue” to make.

That paper had no connection to MK-Ultra, nor Paperclip, nor any crazy Nazi experiments.
- ———————————————————————–
“Aquino has claimed to be the son of a Nazi S.S. officer.”
- ———————————————————————–
I have never claimed this anywhere, anytime. My father, Michael Aquino Sr., was born an American citizen and is of Italian ancestry. For your information he served as a sergeant in Patton’s 3rd Army in World War II, and received the Purple Heart for wounds in combat against the German Army.

Sincerely,

Michael A. Aquino




http://www.angelfire.com/electronic2/kc_jones/007.HTM


"Michael Aquino's property includes 828 Mission St., San Rafael, leased by PROJECT CARE FOR CHILDREN AND MARIN COUNTY CHILD ABUSE COUNCIL."

Officials of Project Care for children expressed shock that the building's owner was linked to the Presidio molestation case.
They emphasized that Aquino has nothing to do with the operation of the center, a private non-profit organization that assists parents in finding daycare.

"This is the most ironic a bizarre twist of fate" said Daria Seivers, past president of Project Care.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/84599728/Satanic-Cult-has-Bizarre-Links-to-Marin
http://www.whale.to/b/brussell4.html
http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/PedophocracyPart3.htm


source:
http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=432874


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Victor|Victim

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#447461 - 09/17/13 12:51 PM Re: m.aquino research [Re: cant_remember]
dogman Offline
New Here

Registered: 12/20/07
Posts: 12
Very interesting thank you. I find it odd that there are so many references to organized satanism and these mind control experiments but I suppose that theses are the only groups where a pedophile could actually hold his head up???

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#447521 - 09/18/13 08:51 AM Re: m.aquino research [Re: cant_remember]
SoccerStar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: traveler
i was primed for seeing one of the Caravaggio versions - he did at least four - and in three of them the eyes are open. i must have transposed the vivid memory of one of those paintings that i was fervently hoping to see onto the canvas that was before me - producing a hybrid vision of what was actually there and what i was anticipating. the reason i am telling this story is not to discount your conjectures and attempt to cause you to doubt your conclusions - but to suggest another possible explanation. i know that what i saw was the truth - the head with the open eyes really exists. the painting that i saw with the eyes closed really exists. somehow my mind combined or telescoped those two truths into one image. in one way, i was deceiving myself. in another way - i was perceiving the truth as i knew and understood it. so i would suggest a degree of caution - perhaps the truth you have remembered is not exactly the literal, factual, historical truth as it would have been seen by an objective observer. but perhaps it is the essential truth as your mind and memory could grasp it.



There is wisdom in Lee's words. For a multitude of reasons it is hard to believe that Josef Mengele could have ever been at large in the United States - and even if he had been, based on the Werner Von Braun model he would more likely have been employed at some top-secret government medical research center trying to develop vivisection techniques to make U.S. soldiers resistant to radioactive fallout, withstanding torture, or able to communicate by telepathy or something. Having him spend his days giving kids the "turn your head and cough" would be low ROI for the government. There are tragically many people who are just as enthusiastic about torturing children.
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#447545 - 09/18/13 12:46 PM Re: m.aquino research [Re: cant_remember]
dogman Offline
New Here

Registered: 12/20/07
Posts: 12
I agree. I think Mengele would have been a pretty hot potato anyway. There were still a lot of people around who would have recognized him and not all of them suffered from the stockholm effect. I do understand the urge to see your suffering as part of a larger conspiracy tho. It seems like it fulfills some things that are left wanting after abuse. Having your suffering fit into a larger picture seems to make it more meaningful and less sordid somehow. although I think all of this suffering is more meaningful than any of us can see... at least in a spiritual sense.

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#447701 - 09/19/13 10:23 PM Re: m.aquino research [Re: dogman]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
I have several books now on MKUltra indoctrination by the CIA and military counterparts. Reading them carefully has allowed me to reconstruct what happened to me as a boy. Yes there are many presumptive thoughts. I want to work this out carefully and then I will post it.

Puffer

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#447712 - 09/20/13 02:33 AM Re: m.aquino research [Re: cant_remember]
Still Offline
Member
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Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6571
Loc: Never Sugar Mountain
If anyone gets too close or scares the organized child-rape circles, you will likely be "dealt with," with little-to-no help from any (any) of our organizations.
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#447749 - 09/20/13 03:43 PM Re: m.aquino research [Re: Still]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
My abuser was not Aquino. I'm pretty confident he was military. He's dead now, so he can't come and get me.

I find there was a pattern in what they were doing. They torture and abuse the child until the child's own self love gets to about zero. Then the child is susceptible to being programmed. They were using LSD then, but they didn't know much about it.

There are some books written about it.
Bluebird : Deliberate Creation of Multiple Personality by Psychiatrists, by Colin A. Ross

Colin Ross is a psychiatrist who has done much to alleviate the damage done to people like me. He has written about 2 dozen books.

There are some very interesting books written by people who have been programmed and then written about it later. The one I read first was by Carol Rutz. A Nation Betrayed(The Chilling True Story of Secret Cold War Experiments Performed on Our Children and Others. This is a Kindle book and/or get it from the publisher for $20.

Puffer



Edited by pufferfish (09/28/13 05:40 PM)

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#447753 - 09/20/13 05:10 PM Re: m.aquino research [Re: pufferfish]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3425
Loc: O Kanada
dear pufferfish,

i can never really quite get through this thread or your story, without becoming very emotionally involved.
many negative feelings surface, and i have to stop reading and start processing.
i wish i could say something, anything, that would make you feel better.
but there are no appropriate words.
i feel that you have been betrayed beyond belief,
and you have suffered a great and grievous injustice for which there is no adequate compensation or comfort.
but that sounds negative and it an obvious truth that requires no redundant repetition from me.
i can tell you that i admire your courage, tenacity, endurance, and persistence.
qualities to which i, too, aspire.
and by demonstrating those, you inspire.

the only way i know to switch positive is to channel that spiritual energy of hate for "them" into love for you.

if it is at all possible to project love through the internet, you will feel it from me.

i applaud your efforts.
_________________________
Victor|Victim

War
Love
Poetry

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#448029 - 09/23/13 08:49 PM Re: m.aquino research [Re: victor-victim]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
I indorse this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvEBmEo4IA0

And this book:

TRANCE Formation of America. The True Life Story of a CIA Mind Control Slave by Cathy O'Brien with Mark Phillips.


Puffer



Edited by pufferfish (09/23/13 09:11 PM)

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#448514 - 09/28/13 01:32 AM Re: m.aquino research [Re: pufferfish]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
I know I have talked this to death, to the point that everybody is quite disgusted with it. But it's quite helpful to me to think these things through and then to declare them here. So I urge people not to read them anymore. Just consider it my own walk through insanity.

More recently I've encountered several statements about how children were actually sold to the CIA. Yes, for money. The first declaration I found was in the book by Carol Rutz. A Nation Betrayed... Her grandfather sold her for experimntation for $1000. Then I found some more references to people receiving money for turning their children over to the CIA for experimentation. See the book I mention in the preceding post (the book by Cathy O'brien, Trance Formation). Apparently the rate was $1000. That was quite a bit of money in those days. These things start me thinking and I have decided that my father was probably given money to allow me to be experimented on. Of course they would have lied. They would have had him sign some kind of a release, saying that they were going to do some simple and innocuous experimentation. My parents were middle class and my father had just endured a long hospitalization. My mother had started studying to be a real estate salesman. She wouldn't have done that except that they needed money. There is a picture of me standing next to our Christmas tree. It's here in MS in that forum where photographs are posted. That Christmas, the only gift I received was a popcorn popper. The popper was not really even for me. It was for use by the whole family.

I was a depressed lad. So, yes. They were quite short on money. Then I was taken to the crumby hospital to have my tonsils and adenoids out. They had already been removed 10 years before. So that didn't make sense. It was just the kind of reason people think up when they don't want to say the real reason. When I emerged from that brief hospitalization, I couldn't talk above a whisper. I couldn't talk for 3 1/2 years. (This could be documented through Denver Public Schools). Things got worse for me. I have read in both of the 2 books I just mentioned (the other one by Cathy O'brien, Trance Formation) that they were experimented on as children in a hospital setting (in addition to many other settings). Wires were attached to their heads for some kind of EEG experiment, probably in conjunction with testing some drug. So, I believe something like that happened to me in the crumby hospital. They were very interested in inducing amnesia through chemicals or hypnosis. I was under ether anesthetic but I remember some of it. I was also sexually abused there during that procedure. My father bought a brand new Buick a few months later. He liked green Buicks. I was with him when he bought it. I couldn't talk above a whisper. My parents stopped worrying about money. Where did the money come from??? That's why I'm thinking that he got paid for my services. A few years later after I got a driver's license he let me drive that green Buick the rest of my high school years. I guess he felt I had earned it, but at the time I didn't understand any of this.

Other reasons I have suspicion are statements my parents made. The family moved back to Denver 1 1/2 years after the tonsillectomy fiasco. My father moved out there about 5 months before the rest of the family for job reasons. In a letter he asked his brother, my uncle, to watch out for me. I've never understood that until a few days ago. My father and uncle were close emotionally. Both were officers in the military. My father was active in the reserve Army (Aquino and my perp were also in the Army). My uncle lived on the other side of Washington DC and worked for the Navy. Both had a security clearance. Now I suspect that they had a conversation about children being used in experiments there. My father was asking my uncle to make sure I wasn't sucked up into any more experiments.

Then, 50 years later, it was about 10 years after my memories of all of this had resurfaced. I finally decided to tell my mother about what had happened to me. I had a carefully rehearsed, brief speech about my having experienced severe abuse in the summer camp. I didn't understand her response until a few days ago. I would have expected her to express surprise and shock when I told her that. But she didn't show any surprise. It was as though she already knew about it. So she replied, "You should have told your father about that (the severe abuse)....he would have killed him." Her remarks only make sense when I realize that she already knew something had happened but that she didn't have any idea of the gravity of it. It makes sense if my parents knew I had undergone some kind of a process but they didn't know what it was.

Puffer

Written later: When I told my mother I expected her to be surprised. It was I who was surprised. I had told her in general terms of my abuse at the summer camp. Her reply was specific. She said if my father had known the extent of the abuse he would have killed him. She knew. She knew who he was. I was so surprised I couldn't think to ask her.






Edited by pufferfish (09/28/13 12:11 PM)

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#448516 - 09/28/13 01:47 AM Re: m.aquino research [Re: pufferfish]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3425
Loc: O Kanada

Originally Posted By: pufferfish
I know I have talked this to death, to the point that everybody is quite disgusted with it.


not so.
perish the thought, pufferfish.

i, for one, appreciate everything you have chosen to share with me, especially if it helps you.
it helps me, so i understand.
_________________________
Victor|Victim

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#448579 - 09/28/13 12:31 PM Re: m.aquino research [Re: victor-victim]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
The question was raised as to whether my abuser was M. Aquino. I answered "no". Although there seem to be some conspicuous similarities, there were some strong differences.

The similarities were: They were both men in the military, who rose to the rank of general. They were apparently both pedophiles.

It seems likely that they knew each other and probably influenced each other, although this is conjecture on my part.

The differences seem to be in personality. Aquino was very public and his name appears in numerous publications and media functions. There are lots of pictures and references to Aquino. He looked very different from my abuser (see photos). My abuser was very jealous of references to his name. I have not been able to find his name in any of the books I have looked at on MK-Ultra. There are references to name "deleted" or to "xxxxxxxx" or to name redacted. This in itself is a certain type of information. I found his picture (below) in a video which I give reference to in a previous post. If you've been through something like I was you will understand why I can remember his appearance many years later. Since that video was removed shortly after I posted the reference, it indicates to me that the coverup of his name and person extends to some lengths within some pervasive system. I don't think my abuser could be "nice or polite" even if he had to in order to groom a child. He was a bulldozer. His personality was like a certain chef on TV (the one who's every other word is f-ck

My abuser about the time of the summer camp abuse I experienced:


More recent picture


Originally Posted By: victor-victim (this is an edited quote)

WARNING TRIGGERS!

dear dogman,


i got some links on m.aquino
http://www.rachane.org/Vitae.html

Michael Aquino holds a Ph.D. in political science and is a U.S. Army Reserve officer with a background in psychological warfare.
Ethical, responsible Michael Aquino was accused by the U.S. Army CID on August 11, 1989 of "Conspiracy, Kidnapping, Sodomy, Indecent Acts or Liberties With a Child, False Swearing, Intentional Noncompliance With Article 30 Uniform Code of Military Justice, Maltreatment of a Subordinate and Conduct Unbecoming an Officer," in connection with the Presidio charges.
.....
After Aquino sued the Army to have his name stricken from the the report, the court investigated and a decision was handed down by the Commanding General of the Army CID on September 28, 1990: "Plaintiff remains titled for Conspiracy, Kidnapping, Sodomy, Indecent Acts and False Swearing."
Aquino’s pleas of innocence notwithstanding, there is little doubt that molestation occurred at the Presidio.
The serious harms inflicted upon the children at Presidio were documented by Diane Ehrensaft Ph.D.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1037/h0079332/abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=1580341&dopt=Citation
On Aug. 14, 1987, the San Francisco Police staged a raid on the Russian Hills home of Lt. Col. Michael Aquino, an active duty U.S. Army Reserve officer, and his wife Lilith.
The raid was in response to allegations that Aquino's home had been the scene of a brutal child rape of a four-year-old girl.





Quote:
The child's detailed description of the house in which the incident had occurred led police to the Aquino residence, which doubled as a Temple, where they confiscated 38 videotapes, photo negatives and other evidence that the home had been the hub of a pedophile ring operating in and around the army base.
For reasons that still remain cloudy, Aquino and his wife were never indicted.


Another book I have looked is: The Franklin Scandal: A Story of Powerbrokers, Child Abuse & Betrayal, by Nick Bryant

This book has some references to Aquino. One of them is that a boy (presumably the boy described in the above quote) gave explicit descriptions of his home in California. Only someone who had been in it would have known such details.

This book also gives a lot of information about Johnny Gosch and what happened to him. I'm not going to open that up in this post.

Quote:

-———————————————————————–
“Noreen Gosch found out that Michael La Vey was involved in the crimes perpetrated against her son, Johnny when Noreen Gosch met with Paul Bonacci in the Nebraska prison in 1991.”
- ———————————————————————–
[I assume that you meant to write "Michael Aquino" rather than "Michael LaVey"; there is no "MLV".] This presents Noreen Gosch’s lie as unquestioned truth, when it is pure fiction.
- ———————————————————————–
That paper had no connection to MK-Ultra, nor Paperclip, nor any crazy Nazi experiments.
- ———————————————————————–
“Aquino has claimed to be the son of a Nazi S.S. officer.”
- ———————————————————————–
I have never claimed this anywhere, anytime. My father, Michael Aquino Sr., was born an American citizen and is of Italian ancestry. For your information he served as a sergeant in Patton’s 3rd Army in World War II, and received the Purple Heart for wounds in combat against the German Army.

Sincerely,

Michael A. Aquino[/font][/color]



http://www.angelfire.com/electronic2/kc_jones/007.HTM


"Michael Aquino's property includes 828 Mission St., San Rafael, leased by PROJECT CARE FOR CHILDREN AND MARIN COUNTY CHILD ABUSE COUNCIL."

Officials of Project Care for children expressed shock that the building's owner was linked to the Presidio molestation case.
They emphasized that Aquino has nothing to do with the operation of the center, a private non-profit organization that assists parents in finding daycare.

"This is the most ironic a bizarre twist of fate" said Daria Seivers, past president of Project Care.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/84599728/Satanic-Cult-has-Bizarre-Links-to-Marin
http://www.whale.to/b/brussell4.html
http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/PedophocracyPart3.htm



reference post on Johnny Gosch:

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=432874


Puffer




Edited by pufferfish (09/28/13 05:32 PM)

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#449937 - 10/12/13 01:40 PM Re: m.aquino research [Re: pufferfish]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
A link given me by another "survivor":

Radiohead

Watch out! WARNING! This might be very upsetting to some. Consider it triggering and upsetting.

http://occultmediadeception.blogspot.com/2011/01/radiohead_30.html?m=1

It says "occult" but it also says "MK-Ultra". I experienced much of what is described here. I have had right-eye drop instead of left eye. It has taken many years for me to figure out what happened to me and to experience healing (still not complete).

Puffer



Edited by pufferfish (10/12/13 02:06 PM)

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#449959 - 10/12/13 04:57 PM Re: m.aquino research [Re: cant_remember]
Jacob S Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 613
Loc: where the shadows lie
I would like to point out Aquino has never been indicted. I would also like to point out that Kathy O'Brien's accusations have never been confirmed by any legal entity. Regardless of whether or not we believe in their guilt, this in effect makes this a thread we are repeating unprovable claims about very serious criminal allegations. If these things are true, these people should certainly be brought to justice. However, until such time as these accusations are proven, public discussion of them -- regardless of the veracity of any specific case -- sets a very bad precedent for this site. This site does not allow for unfounded accusations of specific individuals. In this thread, no new accusations have been made but accusations made elsewhere have been repeated with impunity. Does this mean that if an accusation is made against someone somewhere else on the web, it is then ok to repeat that accusation here?

I do not care at all for the well-being of Aquino or others mentioned on this thread or the individuals that Kathy O'Brien names. My concern is for the effect that permission to repeat unproven accusations will have on MS. Many of us have suffered from not being believed in our own lives. We are therefore very sensitive to not being dismissive of others personal testimony. However, false allegations do exist. Multiple sites repeating and opining on the allegations does not make the allegation true or false. Using malesurvivor to accuse specific individuals is against the site's guidelines. Using malesurvivor to repeat accusations made on other sites is a loophole that can lead to a lot of harm. It is therefore my opinion that for the sake of the site and maintaining the integrity of its guidelines, it is inappropriate to name individuals that have never been convicted and inappropriate to link to sites that prominently name individuals that have never been convicted. The business of public accusations is a very dangerous and decisive affair even when done with the best of intentions and I do not believe it serves the interest of malesurvivor to continue it.
_________________________


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#449971 - 10/12/13 06:41 PM Re: m.aquino research [Re: Jacob S]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
I stand by the descriptions of abuse I experienced. I have not mentioned the name of my abuser. When I get to the point of being able to absolutely prove it, I may mention his name.

Things like the connection I make here consist of the little guy (me) who was extremely badly abused as a boy, finally finding out that numerous others experienced the same thing. Very few crimes are ever established beyond the shadow of a doubt. I shouldn't have to hire a lawyer to prove my case in this matter.

The descriptions in the web site I just referred to are so close to the descriptions of what happened to me that they can't have arisen by chance. I have a bunch of books at this point which describe the same kinds of abuse of children as I and others experienced. There are several books by people who were not abused in this way but who are either established professors in well-known universities, or who are reputable authors. I have been listing these books in this thread, and I have more which I can list.

I have nowhere else to vet my grievances. It would be a great injustice to deny me the right to vet them here.

There is a wide tolerance on this site to accepting the survivor stories of those of us who have been wounded by abusive treatment we have received.

If there is an error in reporting, it's that probably more children have been wounded by MK-Ultra and related programs, than were killed or maimed by the infamous Dr. Death of Auschwitz fame. This stuff needs to be brought out where the public can be made aware of it.

Puffer



Edited by pufferfish (10/12/13 06:47 PM)

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#449973 - 10/12/13 07:46 PM Re: m.aquino research [Re: pufferfish]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3425
Loc: O Kanada
Originally Posted By: pufferfish
I stand by the descriptions of abuse I experienced. I have not mentioned the name of my abuser. When I get to the point of being able to absolutely prove it, I may mention his name.

Things like the connection I make here consist of the little guy (me) who was extremely badly abused as a boy, finally finding out that numerous others experienced the same thing. Very few crimes are ever established beyond the shadow of a doubt. I shouldn't have to hire a lawyer to prove my case in this matter.

The descriptions in the web site I just referred to are so close to the descriptions of what happened to me that they can't have arisen by chance. I have a bunch of books at this point which describe the same kinds of abuse of children as I and others experienced. There are several books by people who were not abused in this way but who are either established professors in well-known universities, or who are reputable authors. I have been listing these books in this thread, and I have more which I can list.

I have nowhere else to vet my grievances. It would be a great injustice to deny me the right to vet them here.

There is a wide tolerance on this site to accepting the survivor stories of those of us who have been wounded by abusive treatment we have received.

If there is an error in reporting, it's that probably more children have been wounded by MK-Ultra and related programs, than were killed or maimed by the infamous Dr. Death of Auschwitz fame. This stuff needs to be brought out where the public can be made aware of it.

Puffer



i support you, your opinion, your position, and your efforts to dig up the truth, puffer!

i have had similar problems with encountering reluctance, even resistance, when attempting to explore, expose, investigate, or discuss government/military/political angles to the international institutions of child abuse, both current and historical.
the abusers benefit from the suppression and secrecy surrounding this topic.
not even other survivors are comfortable dealing with this.
_________________________
Victor|Victim

War
Love
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#449979 - 10/12/13 08:16 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
Jacob S Offline
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Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 613
Loc: where the shadows lie
Puffer,

Please don't think my intention was to doubt you or hinder your healing. Nothing could be further from my intentions.

I certainly would hate it if anyone here felt like they were not listened to and believed when sharing their own story.

I also want you to know that I am not specifically replying to your latest post. I have not looked at that link in detail so I'm not commenting on it one way or the other. My concern is that the general drift of this thread has been for some time moving away from simply sharing stories and moving toward being a clearinghouse of unproven accusations.

There is indeed a wide tolerance on this site for accepting stories and that tolerance and acceptance is crucial to healing. There is a difference, however, between sharing one's own experience in order to heal and making claims about other individuals. There is neither legal evidence nor wide public consensus against many of the people that the links in this thread have implicated. Many of us would love to shout the names and addresses of perps who escaped justice, and 99.999% of us (if not 100%) would be telling the truth. But the harm of allowing such free-wheeling allegations outweighs the good it would do, because sooner or later their would be a false allegation and lives would be destroyed because of it.

I am not questioning the authenticity of your tale or your intentions. I am saying that making public accusations based solely on personal uncorroborated testimony is a practice too easily corrupted. Everything in this thread might be 100% correct, but, prior to proof, allowing these allegations to stand in public 1) is unfair to the individuals being accused AND 2)opens the door for spurious accusations in the future. The only way to keep this site from being a place where unjust accusations are rampant is to have a standard of proof in place before allowing specific accusations to be published. And since malesurvivor is not equipped to draw up such standards itself, it is perfectly reasonable to rely on legal standards.


That is my opinion on the matter. Of course I can't tell anyone what to do. And above all I don't want you to think I am trying to pick a fight here. I just don't think repeating or linking to these accusations is good for the overall purpose or health of this site.
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#449982 - 10/12/13 08:19 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: victor-victim]
Jacob S Offline
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Registered: 01/01/13
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Loc: where the shadows lie
Originally Posted By: victor-victim

i have had similar problems with encountering reluctance, even resistance, when attempting to explore, expose, investigate, . . .
not even other survivors are comfortable dealing with this.



edit: thank you for clarifying that isn't referring to me.


Edited by Jacob S (10/12/13 08:57 PM)
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#449984 - 10/12/13 08:41 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: victor-victim]
Jacob S Offline
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Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 613
Loc: where the shadows lie
Originally Posted By: victor-victim

the abusers benefit from the suppression and secrecy surrounding this topic.


from one of my favorite plays:

Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!
More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast– man's laws, not God's– and if you cut them down—and you're just the man to do it—do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake.
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#449985 - 10/12/13 08:43 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3425
Loc: O Kanada
to jacobS,
i was agreeing with puffer.
not disagreeing with you.
my reply was not referring to your post.
sorry for the confusion.
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#449992 - 10/12/13 09:32 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
SoccerStar Offline
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Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
Quote:
the abusers benefit from the suppression and secrecy surrounding this topic.


Abusers benefit more from the undermining of the methods of gathering, reporting, and investigating evidence.
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My story

"Don't think it hasn't been a little slice of heaven just because it hasn't!" --Bugs Bunny

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#450098 - 10/13/13 08:54 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: SoccerStar]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
The Radiohead site gives in lyric form the things I experienced as a boy. I didn't experience all of them. They cite books which I have read and one I'm reading now. The things they describe are incredible but true. Yes, people are doing these things to children.

I have stated these things in pufferfish story part 5.

Puffer


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#456898 - 12/16/13 06:01 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: pufferfish]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
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I've discovered a book which fills in a huge amount of information as to what I experienced as a lad. It has to do with training of kids in MK-Ultra. What it describes is very close to events as I remembered them. I've been reading it avidly but I'm a slow reader.

Puffer

PS. This book is amazing. If anybody is struggling with this, I'll give you the author and title.

PSS. I was subjected to a very risky experiment. A large percentage of the children who were subjected to it died afterward, according to the book. Then I think I was de-selected from the program because I was very depressed. The experiment in some way caused me the loss of my voice. It also involved sex. Of the kids who continued, 15% became suicides.





Edited by pufferfish (12/17/13 08:31 PM)

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#457018 - 12/18/13 02:18 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: pufferfish]
pufferfish Offline
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Originally Posted By: Pufferfish post=444296

Now I'm concerned that they purchased my services for additional experiments.

Major "deleted" visited my home at least once that I know of. It was in about November after the summercamp. Did he arrange for me to be in more experiments?

My parents told me that I was to be taken to an ancient ear-nose-throat hospital in Washington DC for a tonsillectomy/adenoidectomy, even though I had that 10 years previously. We arrived at the depressing hospital. My parents put me through the doorway to the reception desk and left, almost as though they were ashamed to watch. I was put in a rickety wheelchair, probably dating from the civil war. I was taken to a bed.

During the operation I was under the impression that things were being done to me. I never understood. I was partially awake (patients with DID or MPD often have alters who don't respond to anesthetic properly-Some alters remain awake during operations-I was given extra ether to put me down). I have had the impression for a long time that I was sexually abused during the procedure. I think there was something else that happened. I think there was some kind of experiment being done on my head. I don't know what it was.

Afterward I felt sick from ether. I smelled it for 6 weeks. I couldn't talk properly. I could only talk in a raspy whisper. It didn't get better. It hung on for 3 1/2 years. My problems got worse.

The hospital is no longer there. The doctor was a wretched old man even then.


There is a book by Carol Rutz which describes a dangerous brain experiment done on her. I wondered if the same thing was done on me.
A Nation Betrayed: Secret Cold War Experiments Performed on our Children and Other Innocent People, by Carol Rutz


However, I've found a more recent book which seems to give information on experiments on children. It is:
CAT'S PAW - HIDDEN CELL OF THE MK-ULTRA PROJECT [Kindle Edition] by Richard Lawrence.

http://www.amazon.com/CATS-PAW-HIDDEN-MK-ULTRA-PROJECT-ebook/dp/B009ZHQIRS/

I think the author (Richard Lawrence) is writing under a pseudonym and I think he has changed some details to protect the innocent. But it seems to be giving his own story. It also gives information on what was going on before he was born, like in the time when I was being "worked on".

I believe that the brain experiments he described are what I went through. He must have had another source for this information because he wasn't born at the time of the described brain experiments. So I'm not sure who told him this information. If he tells his source I haven't seen it.
In the early 1950s they (CIA and NSA) were trying to figure out how to control and understand human behavior. There are lots of names are given in this book. I think I was one of the children subjected to experiments. My name is not given in the book, although I believe my abuser (in the scout camp) is identified under a pseudonym (General James Damsforth). I believe the book quotes some things he said but gives him a different name.

My memories are a bit vague. I believed they sexually abused me (in the operating room). I think 4 guys did it. Then I was given more anesthetic and then they worked on my head. They were into doing experiments on brains. The book I just mentioned talked about injecting cells from all kinds of animals and fetal cells from humans, but other people too. They also worked on prisoners, etc. Many of the subjects (according to that book) died from it. I didn't die but it took me a long time to get over it. It has taken me a long time to figure this stuff out.

Originally Posted By: Richard Lawrence in book: Cat's Paw

That morning, Gottlieb and Helms planted the seeds that launched America's longest range covert research project - a project that was to span decades, albeit under different names. Much of the research done by the Nazis was replicated to authenticate it. And, more. Much more. Convicts, alcoholics, beatnik artists, scientists, children andeven pregnant women were administered LSD and other drugs in hope of creating ESP and other special abilities.
.....
Fetal cells from all manner of animals were implanted in the brains of newborn infants and children to see how they would develop.

Many of this latter group developed tumors and died. Some survived. So, more careful methods were devised to prevent the rejections and infections that so often occurred.
Colored text is mine. It wasn't in the original book.

I think that this experiment is what happened to me. I was not among those who died (obviously). But I was distressed. I couldn't talk above a whisper for 3 to 4 years. I was socially more withdrawn. I think my strabismus (eye problem) became worse. I was very depressed.

I think they were trying to produce a superman. They wanted to see if the implantation of "foreign" brain cells into a child would stimulate strength or brilliance.

They (CIA or NSA) don't want this information to be made public. From that standpoint I've already said enough. But I have a burning, personal need to figure this stuff out. It definitely has a healing effect on me to look into it. It's like solving a puzzle in which I was personally involved. It's like solving a cold case.

Puffer




Edited by pufferfish (12/19/13 01:35 AM)

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#457027 - 12/18/13 05:09 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3425
Loc: O Kanada
thanks for the update, puffer.
keep me posted.

it is bad news, but it needs to be heard!

freedom of speech only applies to those who have a voice!
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#465486 - 05/19/14 12:49 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: victor-victim]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
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Loc: USA
This material has been moved from another location because it is more appropriate here:

I've read about an experiment of implanting electrodes nondestructively. It was done in the 1950's and 60s by a man named Jose Delgado. Delgado was inserting electrodes into brains experimentally. He worked on animals and humans. I think he might have done this to me when I was 13. I don't know this for certain but I think it's a possibility because it was during the time in which they experimented with me. I was told that I was going to be given a tonsillectomy at the hospital. I'm sure that it wasn't a tonsillectomy.

Delgado implanted electrodes in the brain of a bull. The electrical current applied to the electrode was controlled by a remote device, like the remote control for a TV. There is a video of him stepping into the bull ring, and the bull was starting to attack him. He pressed the remote button and the bull stopped in it's tracks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23pXqY3X6c8

On another occasion he implanted electrodes in the brain of an immature boy. This could be done then without opening the cranium. When the remote button was pressed, the boy immediately changed his sexual identity. He reported to the doctor that he wasn't sure he was a boy or a girl. He expressed a desire to be married to the doctor.

Puffer



This was reported in the book: Virtual Government. CIA Mind Control Operations In America by Alex Constantine, page 112.

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#465487 - 05/19/14 12:53 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: pufferfish]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
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Photos and/or XRays of immature humans (children) being experimented on with embedded electrodes in their brains

Below is an X-Ray photo through a child's head showing the implanted electrodes. The electrodes in this case were inserted through the back side of the skull (occipital region). The electrodes are seen as black lines traversing the photo. The air tube which was put in during surgery is seen as a white object going through the throat. It can be verified that it was a child by the dental development. The child may have been from a 3rd world nation as evidenced by the existence of a severely eroded dental cavity.


Below: A boy after electrode implant surgery.





Shown above is a person with an attached apparatus for inserting electrodes (and microchips) through the nasal cavity and ethmoid sinus. This allowed the procedure to take place without any surgical incision and also allowed electrode implantation in deep brain areas without traversing the cerebrum. One survivor of MK Ultra experimentation is Carol Rutz, who has written an excellent book on what she experienced. It contains an explanation of the development of the electrode imiplantation. Carol Rutz' book is: Nation Betrayed.
http://www.amazon.com/Nation-Betrayed-Experiments-Performed-Annotated-ebook/dp/B005IDOXL6/



The more modern implantation of electrodes during surgery for Parkinson's disease. Note protective sheets to preserve sterility and the precision mechanical device which allowed the implantation of electrodes in precise places.


The men shown below working on an anesthetized subject are, on the left, Jose Delgado (who put electrodes in the brain of the bull), Center toward the rear is Dr. Wolff, On the right looking down at the subject, Sidney Gottlieb, the CIA head of Technical Services for about 20 years. He pioneered in the experimentation with LSD on children and military personnel. Obviously he's involved in the electrode implantation here. Far right wearing glasses is John Gittinger. Gittinger worked on personality testing.

An article about Sidney Gottlieb appeared in the New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/03/10/us/sidney-gottlieb-80-dies-took-lsd-to-cia.html
Originally Posted By: NY Times

In the 1950's and early 1960's, the agency gave mind-altering drugs to hundreds of unsuspecting Americans in an effort to explore the possibilities of controlling human consciousness. Many of the human guinea pigs were mental patients, prisoners, drug addicts and prostitutes -- ''people who could not fight back,'' as one agency officer put it. In one case, a mental patient in Kentucky was dosed with LSD continuously for 174 days.



MK Ultra referred to "Mind Control"


Post moved from a previous location


Edited by pufferfish (05/19/14 09:15 AM)

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#465488 - 05/19/14 12:55 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: pufferfish]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: On The Fringe
Just like the Nazi's but with better lies and PR.


Good point.

One of the cia's main operatives was a Nazi officer, Dr, Mengele, imported for that purpose after the war. It was called Project Paper Clip. Many, many Nazi scientists were secretly smuggled into the USA and their records were cleaned up and then they worked on everything from cia stuff to space program.

Dr. Mengele was known in Auschwitz as Dr. Death. In the US he worked on cia stuff. He was the main "experimenter" on Carol Rutz. He had an oddly twisted personality. He could in one minute befriend children in captivity and make them trust him, and the next minute he would turn and murder them. He went under various aliases, Dr. Black, Dr. White, Dr. Green, and Dr. Death ( sick ). He was interested in eugenics, or how to achieve a better "race". He was one of the "scientists" who did cruel experiments on living people.


Puffer

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#465489 - 05/19/14 12:59 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: pufferfish]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
What is MK Ultra?

It can be described as an attempt to develop a super race.

Have you seen the 3rd part of the Bourne Supremacy where he's tortured to make him perfect? (It might be the Bourne Legacy)

Have you seen Clockwork Orange?

Have you seen the 300 sequel, where the boy is abused and sent out into the wild alone to make him a superior man?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDiUG52ZyHQ


Puffer

Post has been moved from another location.

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#465490 - 05/19/14 01:00 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: pufferfish]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
Duplicate post







Edited by pufferfish (05/19/14 01:01 AM)

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#465493 - 05/19/14 05:50 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3425
Loc: O Kanada
pufferfish,
this subject is important!
as you may have already seen,
i have posted quite a large amount of information and links on this topic…
corruption, conspiracy, and coverups!
politics, power, and pedophiles!

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=432874

Stop the violence!
End the silence!
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#465540 - 05/20/14 03:55 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: victor-victim]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
The experimenter Jose Delgado didn't believe that humans should have control of their own minds.

He might say to us, suppose you could control the behavior of the sexual predator?

See these readings:

http://io9.com/5871598/the-scientist-who-controlled-peoples-minds-with-fm-radio-frequencies

Originally Posted By: Keith Veronese

Jose Delgado performed experiments using permanent brain implants in bulls, primates, and humans beginning in the 1950s.
...
his long term goals for the manipulation of humans and society


http://www.biotele.com/delgado_%20ebook/chap11.htm

http://www.biotele.com/delgado_%20ebook/chap12.htm

Do you agree? Should the sexuality of a sexual predator be controlled by imiplanting a device in his (or her) brain? Should everybody's sexuality be controlled by a brain implant?

The experiments described here were said to be done on monkeys and laboratory animals. The first article mentioned however indicates that about 30 humans were subjected to the implantation experiments. Pufferfish thinks that the reporting has been skewed because Dr. Delgado had to return to Spain because he was being subjected to so many law suits from people who had received brain implants without their permission.

Pufferfish



Edited by pufferfish (05/20/14 04:44 PM)

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#465720 - 05/23/14 10:59 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: pufferfish]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
Here it is! This is a full x-ray of my head taken on May 19, 2014.



This is what it shows:
At the very top are the healed remnants of 2 burrholes. These are holes drilled under anesthetic. They are about the size of a dime. Then they were filled with dental cement which closed the wound. Descending from the 2 burrholes are 2 black strands, presumably of some type of wire. They have been wound together by human hands, showing they were not natural.

On the left is a very black island of black. This is the frontal sinus. It is normally open, as it is here. Except that there are 2 sets of wires extending into it through the bone. These wires are bright white, indicating they are of some type of metal. The metal had to be of a type that is not destroyed by the body in time. It might be gold wire or iridium. These wires extend posteriorly toward the opening which holds the pituitary gland where they are joined with 2 other sets of wires extending from the frontal lobe of the brain.

ON the bottom of the braincase are multi-layered strands of metallic wire. It is assumed that this wire traversed the hypothalamus and went past the "pleasure center" of the brain and other important centers concerned with emotion.

There are also a set of wires just above the upper teeth. They are in the maxillary sinus, which is open and represented by black here (this is normal). The wires extend front to back and tie in with wires to the hypothalamus. Other wires are within the ethmoid sinuses.

In the back of the skull (on the right) is another healed burr-hole which is lined with metal, possibly a wire coil. This object may exit the skull through the healed burr-hold in what may be a metallic antenna.

The bones of the backbone are easily seen descending from the skull. the Atlas is at the top and is bright white. Beneath it is the Axis, which has on it's rear a round disk which may be some kind of a solid state device.

This system was installed when I was 13 years old without my knowledge.

Pufferfish



Edited by pufferfish (05/24/14 01:11 AM)

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#465734 - 05/24/14 01:39 PM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: pufferfish]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
Photo of me at age 13


The CIA and MKUltra: I think they wanted to learn how to control people. They wanted to understand the brain and how it worked. They said that they were very afraid of the Soviet Union and this matter of mind control. In fact that's what MKUltra means: Mind Kontrol to the greatest extent. They used prisoners and military personnel but in some cases were able to access American children such as I was.

The head of OSS in CIA was Sidney Gottlieb. He was born with a club foot and he had a stutter. He was probably bullied in school. He hated God and wanted to show that he was more powerful than God. Gottlieb's picture is in this photo below. I believe the same 4 men were involved in working on me. The person unconscious on the table looks a lot like me but I have no definite proof that it was me. I was never told the nature of what was done, either before or after. Of course I never consented to what I didn't know. I had been told I was to have a tonsillectomy. I didn't have any nervous system impediments requiring surgery. I was supposed to take capsules for coagulation for 2 weeks before the surgery. Apparently it's a bloody operation.



The man leaning over the subject was Sidney Gottlieb. He has opened the unconscious guy's (perhaps me) mouth and was looking in it. I think that's because they were planning on using some apparatus which could insert devices through the nasal cavity so that they didn't have to make so many incisions through the skin. There is a picture of this device below. The man with the surgical cap on the left is Jose Delgado. He's the one who, in a well-publicized experiment, put electrodes in the bull's brain and controlled it with a remote control. In the middle and behind was Dr. Wolff. The man on the far right was Dr. Gottlieb's sidekick, Dr. Gittinger. This photo proves that all of these men worked together at the time I was subjected to this procedure.



Dr. Delgado was apparently the one who did most of the work on me, in installing the brain circuitry. He later worked at a major university (Yale). There are several books out either written by him or about him. See these references:

http://io9.com/5871598/the-scientist-who-controlled-peoples-minds-with-fm-radio-frequencies

http://www.amazon.com/Physical-Control-Psychocivilized-Society-Colophon/dp/0060902086/

http://www.amazon.com/Physical-Control-Mind-Psychocivilized-Society/dp/0060110163/

Jose Delgado put remote-controlled electrodes in another boy's brain. When he pressed the remote button and asked the boy if he was boy or girl, the boy switched his sexual orientation and thought he was a girl. He said he "loved" the experimenter and wanted to get married to him. I've read this account in several sources, including Delgado's own book. The question for me in this is, did Delgado and or the others "experiment" with my sexuality while I was under their control? I think the answer has to be "yes" because I have some memory of that and it seems to be born out in my behavior subsequent to the operation.

Those scientists were interested in arousing subjects sexually by using the imbedded electrodes. The electrode, or wire, was put on the septal region of the amygdala. I think they must have enjoyed having the control such that when they pressed the remote button the boy had an erection, and/or other sexual functions. I think they were interested in seeing the response of the boy to sexual stimulation as shown by EEG. It says in one book that they did it over and over. They wanted to see if they could make the boy have a erotic climax. They did it repeatedly. These statements can be verified from Delgado's own books and several others.

According to several books, they wanted to do the most incredible and weird stuff possible. Sexual stuff was not outside the parameters of their activity. They wanted to see if they could change the basic nature of a boy's brain and personality. There I was the most innocent boy on earth (not really) and they wanted to make me a pervert.

So this is what I think they did to me.
They put in wiring and electrodes
This consisted of drilling several holes in my skull under anesthetic.
They carefully installed platinum or gold wire, connecting various parts of my brain.
They raped my butt hole repeatedly and probably measured the EEG response
They may have had another boy in a separate room who would do sexual stuff while they read the responses. Then they could press the remote control and make come on to that boy until it became a habit. I think they might have done this.

They used hypnosis and/or drugs to try to make it so that I would forget the surgical aspects what they did. However they wanted the the sexual stimulation to remain part of my personality.

There were some pronounced and long-term effects on me:
After they were through:
- I couldn't talk for 3 or 3 1/2 years.
- I was much more depressed than before.
- I was a social outcast. I was much more withdrawn than before.
- I kept on sexually messing with my young friends.
- I was shunned at school / people saying I was a homo
- I was kicked off the football team in a public sort of way.
- My right eye became very nearsighted. It went from 20/20 to 20/400. I assume that was because some of the apparatus or its installation disturbed the eye tissue. This never recovered.
- I had much more trouble with strabismus. It was much more difficult to use my left and right eyes in a coordinated manner.
- I was given speech therapy and then child psychotherapy in Denver for my problems.

Twenty or so years after this surgery my mother asked about why I was different after that time. I still had not remembered these events and could not give a meaningful reply.

I'm sure that they must have done the same things to other boys not known to me.

I'm sure that this brain implant surgery did not make me more intelligent or proficient at anything. It guaranteed that everything I did thereafter was a challenge. I was much more depressed and less functional.

Pufferfish



Edited by pufferfish (06/16/14 07:41 PM)

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#465761 - 05/25/14 07:27 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: cant_remember]
TKC Offline


Registered: 03/18/14
Posts: 8
Loc: Australia
The site is truly disturbing. I wish nothing more than a quick end to the lives of people who sexually exploit children. It brought me to tears. I couldn't imagine losing my child to people like that and watch her like a hawk. I panic when she tumbles whilst trying to walk.

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#465886 - 05/28/14 12:37 AM Re: Johnny Gosch doc on MSNBC [Re: TKC]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA


Originally Posted By: Dr. Colin Ross

The CIA doctors violated all medical codes of ethics dating back to Hippocrates, including the Nuremberg Code. The experimental subjects were not told the real purpose of the experiments, did not give informed consent, were not afforded outside counsel and received no meaningful follow-up. As described by the psychiatrists in published papers, experiments with LSD and other hallucinogens, combined with sensory deprivation, electroshock and other interrogation techniques, resulted in psychosis and death among other “side effects.” The purpose of these experiments was to see how easily a person could be put into a psychotic state or controlled.


The following pertains specifically to what I experienced:

Originally Posted By: Dr. Colin Ross

In other experiments, conducted by Dr. Jose Delgado at Yale and Drs. Vernon Mark, Frank Ervin and William Sweet at Harvard, brain electrodes were implanted in people and their mental state and behavior was controlled from a remote radio transmitter box. These experiments were conducted with funding from the Office of Naval Research. In experiments at Tulane funded by the CIA and the Army, implantation of brain electrodes was combined with injecting mescaline and other substances directly into the experimental subjects’ brains


The above citation is from:
http://www.cchrint.org/2009/09/03/cia-mind-control-doctors/

The material is also available in a book: The CIA Doctors.
http://www.amazon.com/CIA-Doctors-Violations-American-Psychiatrists-ebook/dp/B006TKKAG4/

I haven't talked much about Maitland Baldwin, who was a neurosurgeon at the National Institute of Health, located not far from Washington D.C.

Originally Posted By: Dominic Streatfield in Brainwash, The Secret History of Mind Control

in 1955, Baldwin went on to perform all sorts of bizarre experiments for the Agency ... implanting electrodes in humans...

He had no objection to terminal experiments. (in which the experimental subject perished)
http://www.amazon.com/Brainwash-Secret-History-Mind-Control/dp/031232572X/

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