Newest Members
squeekinby, rhyoung, Jefferson22, OxfordArms, Anony_mous
12368 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
Avyi (49), cross29min (59), Dartel (50), ernie (70), flightmedic38 (40), jggab (42), kev (66)
Who's Online
2 registered (JW1230, 1 invisible), 21 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12368 Members
74 Forums
63565 Topics
444123 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3
Topic Options
#41665 - 09/24/05 12:38 AM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
TRIGGER WARNING

Here's another thought.

Do I ( we ) confuse fantasy and reality?

I think I do.
When I was being abused there were, as I've already said, multiple abusers but one main abuser who had sex with me more or less daily for nearly four years during term time.

With his knowledge of sex, and the fantasies he had that I bought into ( survival ) I became very good at what I did.
In the loose group of maybe ten or twelve boys involved in this group of abusers and victims I was the only one who did bj's 'willingly'.
For that I became special, I got praise and recognition. Which given the climate of the school was a rare and precious thing. The whole ethos of that place was to 'encourage' by criticism so we were constantly berated by the staff and our peers.

The reality was that being able to sustain a bj for 30 or 40 minutes, and go 'all the way', when I was 13yo told me that bj's were the only thing that I was good at, it was certainly the only thing I received praise for.

Unfortunately my parents were very much the same so life before boarding school was very little different. I was constantly berated for my faults and always compared, badly, to my brother who was 8 years older than me.
And after school when I was an engineering apprentice it was the same, I just can't remember EVER being praised or appreciated for what I achieved, however modest my achievments were.

Given that background I'm wondering if what I have always called 'fantasy' was actually my real memories of the one thing I can remember being praised for?

My fantasy has nearly always been a very tight and focused one, the simple act of giving bj's to other men. The place, age, race or kind of man doesn't enter into the fantasy. It's nothing more than a set of male male genitals and me.
So was / is that a fantasy?

A fantasy is something we dream of, winning the lottery or shagging a supermodel, that's a fantasy.
Remembering what I ( we ) did as kids, and maybe altering the memory to dress it up a bit, isn't a fantasy - is it?

How can it be a fantasy when I ( we ) know exactly what it's like?
I discovered that as an adult bj's were no different than the ones I experienced as a boy, there's a certain undeniable sexual charge for sure. But NOTHING like the expectation of the fantasy I created as an adult, in fact it was a horrible experience as an adult because there was no logical reason for me to be doing it, I'd just distorted my MEMORIES into a new thing that I was calling 'fantasy'.
And the guilt and shame trip made the whole experience the complete opposite of my expectations. The guilt and shame trip actually started way before I acted out, I think it was actually a component of the whole process. The "I'm shit, so I'll act like shit" process.

Having such a tight and focused 'fantasy' it was / is easy to find porn to fit that profile, and it's something I still do.
But - big 'but' - I'm now looking at regular porn and finding that erotic whereas my old porn of choice, a close up of a gay bj, is loosing it's power. Perhaps that's overexposure because I've seen so many? :rolleyes:

So, can fantasy and memory be confused?
I think they can, and it's very easy to accept memories as fantasies if we alter the memories to suit the same purpose as a fantasy.

There's nothing wrong with fantasy, I bet the majority of men and many women use it without any problems at all, in fact it's probably a great benefit.
I have no problems with having a fantasy about the woman who lives just along the road from me, and sometimes I do have that fantasy, what's the problem? none at all if it works and does no harm.

But using my old memories as pseudo-fantasies does do me harm. It gives me flashbacks, they're laden with guilt and shame, and above all what happened to me as a boy was someone elses fantasy.
I'm worth more than that, I deserve my own fantasy.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

Top
#41666 - 10/01/05 10:02 PM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
Don-NY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 546
Loc: Long Island, NY
I think all perps, whatever their deeds, have the same basic fantasy.
Quote:
I am the only one who matters.
I also think we can easily end up believing that in two ways.

Either we think, "Then, I don't matter", or we think, "No, I am the only one who matters because I was abused".

Both obviously wrong, but I think the second is probably worse, because I think that idea leads to some of the worst behaviors that we work so hard to change.

It becomes an excuse and justification for almost anything. It's scary because I think it must be part of the thinking that makes some abused become abusers.

_________________________
If you understand everything, some things are just as they are. If you understand nothing, things are still just as they are.

Top
#41667 - 10/01/05 10:35 PM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
This thread should have gigantic Trigger warnings all throughout it. Way too much graphic detail. Way too much....


Top
#41668 - 10/01/05 10:53 PM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
John,

I understand your feelings on this, but there really are a lot of trigger warnings throughout the thread.

That said, yes, it is very upsetting. But the subject is exactly of that kind: the fantasies of perps and how they impacted on us as victims of their abuse. Somehow it seems, at least to me, essential to state exactly what we are talking about: both by way of the fantasies of abusers and the ideas they stuck in our heads.

I think you are referring to details in my posts and Dave's. I think Dave would allow me to say that neither of us take any pleasure in saying these things, but these are the realities nonetheless. Maybe it is a good idea to call the Devil by his name sometimes. I think many survivors have similar memories. Maybe it all goes back to the theme of "You are not alone".

Take care,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#41669 - 10/01/05 11:40 PM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Not to hijack the thread, but responding to what John and Larry just said ----

Am I strange or have I taken another step in my recovery? I have come to welcome the "Triggers" or at least see them as a challenge, because when I am triggered I know that there is probably something there I might need to deal with.

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

Top
#41670 - 10/02/05 12:06 AM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
I think I am somehow blind to the trigger warnings sometimes. They are there, I missed them. And believe me, I know the realities all too well.

I think I react more to certain things, detailed accounts, that appear to be in a cavalier type of tone. And I think the cavalier type of tone comes with having found resolve in some of the things that took place. With the exception of about 10 minutes with my therapist, I still haven't shared the details of my abuse with anyone. Nearly two years of therapy but I somehow feel those horrors are best not shared with anyone else, not yet, maybe never. It's my pain and my horror. Funny, I'd advocate others to take the opposite route and tell, tell, tell. - Peace - John


Top
#41671 - 10/03/05 12:05 AM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
John,

I SO know what you mean! I think a big step for me was posting my survivor story. It hurt like hell to write it, and when I was finished I was genuinely ashamed and feeling worthless all over again. But then I thought about what guys were saying about how none of what I had put on the screen was my fault. I looked at what I had written and felt like I was dumping something. I don't mean that in some kind of Hollywood way; it was something I just suddenly felt better about - at least long enough to click and send it.

I'm glad I did. It's still a struggle to talk about the details, and a lot of it I still feel sick about. But I keep telling myself I have nothing to be guilty or ashamed about, and that helps me to get it out when (as on this thread) I feel some purpose is served by doing so. I am just beginning to see that my big issue isn't the sex part, but the way he tore me to pieces emotionally and messed up my relationship with my Dad for so many years. I know what I said is a huge trigger and I regret that, but that's how he worked and that's just one example of how far the fantasies can go and how even the most twisted ones can mess with a kid's mind and feelings.

To each his own bro, but if you want my advice: write your survivor story. It does help. NO ONE will react with anything except tremendous and heartfelt support.

Take care,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#41672 - 10/03/05 12:30 AM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Don
I agree that what you describe - "I am the only one who matters." - is a huge part of the perp's fantasy, it's psychopathic thinking that has no concern for other people at all.
And possibly it might well be the reason some victims / survivors do go on and abuse. They pick up the perp's fantasies and illusions and have no way of processing them, so they try to gain a hold on them by acting them out, supposedly on their terms.
It doesn't work though.

Survivors who act out as I did are, in my view, desperately trying to understand what happened to us by re-enacting the abuse on our terms.
Of course, I for one didn't even call it 'abuse' when I was acting out, I called it "the sex I had as a kid" because I still believed that I was the instigator, or at least a very willing partner, of the sex.

As an adult I modified my memories by being very selective and only remembering the parts that were sexually stimulating to me as a boy. The force and coercion were conveniently forgotton.

Would I have had fantasies about giving men bj's if I hadn't been abused?
I can't possibly answer that, and I have no idea if non abused straight men have this kind of fantasy, or how common it might be.
My fantasy about the attractive woman who lives close by or someone like Halle Berry is, by most standards, considered acceptable. I would admit to those fantasies in the pub with my mates but NOT to fantasizing about giving bj's.

I think the abuse IS at the root of my fantasy, all the evidence points that way for me, so my point is - "it isn't my fantasy, it's my abusers fantasy." Why should I carry it with me?

Because I knew no different is why.
It's only by some deep searching within my head and good therapy that I have stopped acting out, although the fantasy does linger a bit and I sometimes still look at bj porn.
But on the whole I have it controlled, at a price.

I'm now scared of allowing myself a fantasy, because I have experienced the way distorted thoughts, memories and fantasy have become a reality for me, and I don't want that to ever happen again. I don't think it will to be honest, but there's always a small % of doubt that lingers in the back of my mind.
So I won't use the fantasy of the attractive woman up the road incase it gets out of control and threatens the friendship we have. Again, I 'know' it wont happen, but 10 years ago I never though I'd be on my knees giving bj's again, but it happened.

That was due to a lack of understanding of my own problems, and the basis of those problems - my abuse. Also, since then I have learned many things about myself and gained new tools that WILL prevent it happening ever again. I have to tell myself that, but the small % of doubt still lives on.

Is it reasonable to expect 100% that I will never act out again? that if I choose a new fantasy it will inevitably end up out of control?
Of course not, doing the best I can is all I can ask of myself. I know that, all I have to do is convince myself that it's true.

Sorry for the triggers, but I agree that realities have to be faced sometime, sooner rather than later maybe?
And if one of the problems we as an individual face is fantasy, then that's something we use as a survival coping mechanism that eventually fails us. It failed me an I ended up in therapy and here at MS, both places where I had to face my reality.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

Top
#41673 - 10/03/05 09:42 PM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
Don-NY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 546
Loc: Long Island, NY
On second thought, this is a PM.

Sorry.

_________________________
If you understand everything, some things are just as they are. If you understand nothing, things are still just as they are.

Top
#41674 - 10/03/05 09:54 PM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
Part of my pervs fantasy included calling me 'a little shark' - I bought into that! What 12 year old kid wouldn't want to be compared to a powerful creature that ruled the ocean.

Perv should have done a bit more research, because little sharks grow much bigger - they develop teeth, that should they loose one, another grows back in it's place.

Waiting to hear how he enjoyed Crown Court last Friday...this 'little shark' now bites!!

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

Top
Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3


Moderator:  ModTeam, TJ jeff 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.