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#416575 - 11/18/12 07:16 PM WTF - My Nephew on Adventure camp with my abuser
Farmer Boy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/23/12
Posts: 442
Loc: Australia
Last night I was on the phone to my mum for her weekly emotional support session. She still uses me that way...but not the point of this post. blush

She told me that my 13 year old nephew went on an adventure camp for Boy's Bridage (christian version of Scouts). She was worried because there have been violent storms. I said he'd be fine and at least it would be a real adventure. That was until she said that Jim (not his real name) was organising the weekend. Jim is the friend that my middle brother sexually abused me with when I was 6 and they were 10. mad

The abuse did not happen at Boy's Brigade but all of us boys were in Boy's Bridage and my brother and I dropped out after a few years. Jim went on to be a leader. He quit a few years ago and I was relieved. He also has an 11 year old son. My brother and Jim stopped being friends about 25 years ago (when they were 15) and are pretty much just civil to eachother now. They live in the same town and their boys go to Boy's Brigade together. It is as if nothing ever happened between them sexually. But I know better.

Just to set the scene...this guy is a real sleeze. My wife is a real judge of character usually (except where I'm concerned - love is blind) and from the moment she met this guys she thought he was a sleeze and couldn't stand to be around him.

What the hell is my brother thinking letting HIS son go away with this guy.....My mind is going at 100 miles an hour!!!

Maybe it was just experimentation for them and they grew up to be normal well adjusted men - It is all behind them now.

Maybe my brother is too ashamed to admit what happened because of how it will reflect on him.

Maybe it is a pedophile ring....surely not

Maybe both Jim and my brother have abused their own sons

This just makes me mad mad mad mad
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More than meets the eye!

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#416579 - 11/18/12 08:03 PM * [Re: Farmer Boy]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 2217
*


Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/29/13 01:03 PM)

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#416584 - 11/18/12 08:28 PM Re: WTF - My Nephew on Adventure camp with my abuser [Re: Farmer Boy]
Farmer Boy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/23/12
Posts: 442
Loc: Australia
Don't know where to start. I have never spoken to this brother about the abuse by him - I guess trying to keep the peace or keep the relationship we have or something. I don't think he even realises that I know the other stuff he and his friend did together or that he was also abused by our older brother. So many secrets in my family.....

I don't think I could live with myself if something did happen though.

Maybe I could just say something about keeping an eye on Jim with the boys cause he is such a sleeze. That is something that is universally understood about him.

or is that too piss weak?
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More than meets the eye!

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#416585 - 11/18/12 08:29 PM Re: WTF - My Nephew on Adventure camp with my abuser [Re: Farmer Boy]
cant_remember Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 1046
Yes, talk to your brother about it. Try to stay calm so that your anger doesn't show through. You're not angry at him; just concerned for your nephew.

It's super weird, BTW, that the US chapter of Boys Brigade has no website (or rather, it doesn't seem to load for me: http://www.bgbrigade.org/), while chapters in other countries have perfectly functional websites: http://www.boys-brigade.org/national_links.php

So... trust your gut. See what's up.

edit: Oops, just realized you're in Australia. So my concern about the US website is totally useless. Sorry.

Cant


Edited by cant_remember (11/18/12 08:33 PM)
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Recovery is possible. Hang in there, brothers.

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#416586 - 11/18/12 08:41 PM Re: WTF - My Nephew on Adventure camp with my abuser [Re: Smalltown80sBoy]
SoccerStar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 918
Loc: New York
NO. Unbelievably NO.

Farmerboy, I read your posts about your self-image after your abuse - it was heartbreaking even in the midst of how good it was to see other people try to reassure you and pick you up.

But there is another potential victim at risk. And as much as you may hate yourself in dark moments - how will you feel if it happens to another kid??

I hate to push - I hate to poke at someone who is hurting, when no one helped you - but you are the only one who can stop this. Confront your brother. Explicitly.

And record the conversation.
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#416587 - 11/18/12 08:55 PM Re: WTF - My Nephew on Adventure camp with my abuser [Re: Farmer Boy]
WriterKeith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 955
Loc: southern California
Farmer Boy, please don't keep silent. I paid the price for the silence in my family and my church.
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"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#416593 - 11/18/12 10:34 PM Re: WTF - My Nephew on Adventure camp with my abuser [Re: Farmer Boy]
webelos Offline


Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 12
Loc: in mountains both in my mind a...
For those of us that were at the hands of men like that at scouts, it would be best to say something - make waves for the others (if you are strong enough). I wished someone else had been back then.
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transition from cub scouts to boy scouts wasn't easy. It was hard to go from the safety of den mothers to the world of men and older boys.

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#416604 - 11/19/12 12:39 AM Re: WTF - My Nephew on Adventure camp with my abuser [Re: Farmer Boy]
crazy gecko Offline


Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 309
Lee, I hate to put pressure on you while you are hurting so much, but you are the only hope of this boy not having to go through the same shit that all of us here are going through...

Please speak up!
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I guess what I'm trying to say
Is whose life is it anyway because livin'
Living is the best revenge
You can play
-- Def Leppard

My Story, Part 2

My blog

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#416605 - 11/19/12 12:44 AM Re: WTF - My Nephew on Adventure camp with my abuser [Re: Farmer Boy]
whome Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1736
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
Hi Lee

I agree with all the sentiments above. What is the saying, "evil Flourishes where good men do nothing"
You are a good man so you have to do something, Even if you write to the leaders of the boys brigade anonymously and tell them that you are a victim of abuse at the hands of this man and that him being a leader is of concern.
In Australia there is currently a great amount of attention focused on CSA so the time is right for you to do something. They cannot ignore you.

Please dont leave this, the effects on other children is to scary to imagine.

Heal well
Martin
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Matrix Men South Africa
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#416621 - 11/19/12 07:38 AM Re: WTF - My Nephew on Adventure camp with my abuser [Re: Farmer Boy]
Farmer Boy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/23/12
Posts: 442
Loc: Australia
I rang my brother. My heart was ponding so hard I nearly hung up before anyone answered. My sister inlaw answered the phone. I like her - we spoke for about 15 minutes and I quized her about the camping trip.

It turns out what my mum said wasn't accurate (no surprises there). Jim was not a leader or organiser of the trip but was there to adjudicate (because of his past experience in Boy's Bridage - to make sure that everything was done right for the boys to get their badges. He did not share a tent with anyone.)

I then spoke to my brother about it all when he got on the phone and he confirmed all that and that Jim is definitely NOT a leader anymore.

On the plus side I spoke to my brother for an hour about just normal life stuff - which was nice.

The problem I have is ...what do I do now. Should I still contact the Boy's Brigade and tell them that I have concerns about Jim ever being a leader. The other thing is he was only 10 when it happened. How responsible was he for his actions back then?

Another problem I have had all day is questioning if I am just overreacting about the abuse in the first place. Maybe they did just see it as experimenting. What happened really wasn't much compared to the other stuff I went through. To me it doesn't seem bad enough.

To be honest I have no idea how to gauge if this was CSA. I'm asking for guidance now. This is what I remember. If you are up for it. Please read what happened and let me know if you think it is worth making a big deal about?

------------------------------------------------------
++++++++++++++++++ TRIGGER WARNING ++++++++++++++++++
------------------------------------------------------
Ok so this is what I remember:

My brother and I were camping at the beach with Jim's family (I was friends with his little sister the same age as me - she was my 'girl friend' at 6 - cute hey). One night us boys went to the shower block to have showers. It was a brick building that was poorly lit and there was a wet bare concrete floor and some benches in the middle of the room. I think they were touching each others privates in the shower and I my own (as normal). They decided to make an anal sex circle between the three of us. I happily joined in (because that is how I had already been conditioned by my older brother). All three of us were standing in a circle. The plan was my brother would go into Jim, Jim into me and me into my brother. But my legs were too short and it was too tight a angle to reach my brother's arse. Also Jim couldn't get his dick right in my arse. So they just gave up. About this time Jim's dad came looking for us - wondering why we took so long. I can't remeber what his dick looked like or what my brother's looked like at that age. That seems odd to me. That is all I remember happening with Jim and myself. There is other stuff that happened between Jim and my brother in the toilet block at school as I found out when I got to high school. Jim was always very inappropriately sexual in his conversations - even at church. I know he got in trouble at uni because he 'fell out' of his shorts a lot. He is a teacher now and I know there was inappropiate behaviour with a female student at a past school.

--------------------------end of trigger-------------------------

Now to me this isn't enough to bad mouth a man who for all I know may be a good man now (even though he is creepy).

Please let me know what you think. I thought this was CSA not experimentation because they were 4 years older than me. But today I feel like it wasn't that bad and I'm just being over sensitive because of the other stuff that happened to me.

What should I do?
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More than meets the eye!

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#416627 - 11/19/12 08:55 AM Re: WTF - My Nephew on Adventure camp with my abuser [Re: Farmer Boy]
cant_remember Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 1046
OK,

If you really want to get to the bottom of this to know that you've done all you can do to ensure the safety of your nephew... here's a few ideas.

I don't know what the privacy laws are like there, but you can always try to:

A) Call or write (or both) to the university where he went. Ask if there's any disciplinary files on him for lewd behavior. Ask to talk to the university's legal department or president's office. Tell them that Jim is working with children and that you are concerned and ask if they have any information on file that would raise concerns for them that he's working with children.

B) Follow up on that "inappropriate behavior with a female student." Write/call that school. Ask if Jim was fired/dismissed as a result of it. Depending on privacy rules, you could ask the school to contact the girl's parents to tell them that Jim is working with children... and if they don't like that idea, then they can contact you and together the lot of you can reach out to Boys Brigade.

I think it's tough to use something a person did at 10 years old against him unless there's other evidence to show that it's a continued pattern.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

Cant
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Recovery is possible. Hang in there, brothers.

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#416629 - 11/19/12 09:11 AM Re: WTF - My Nephew on Adventure camp with my abuser [Re: Farmer Boy]
peroperic2009 Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 3621
Loc: South-East Europe
Hey Lee,
good that you made that call and checked things. I'm proud on you man!
Related to Jim's age when he and your brother brought you into sex plays I would say that both they were kids at that time.
Don't know what some expert would say on all this but I somehow can't find child to be fully responsible for such acts. Kids are not at all aware of sexuality and once when it came to their lives because they are kids it become overwhelming for them and it colors their thoughts, plays and everything else.
I know because I went trough all that.
I've never felt abused in real terms, but as kid I was introduced to things that were inapropriate nor digestible for 6 year old kid.
I've been sad when I've read about your play with them two in that shower.
In my case such behavior has been brought by some adult to one kid (my bro told me how was it) and then it has spread among us boys.
He might be good man now (and your brother also), but I would like to know broader picture about their past, how everything started and how finished (that all doesn't look so innocent to me) to be able to conclude if there is need for some more action. Such plays doesn't start spontaneously. Don't know, those are just my thoughts.

Pero
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#416632 - 11/19/12 10:41 AM Re: WTF - My Nephew on Adventure camp with my abuser [Re: Farmer Boy]
SoccerStar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 918
Loc: New York
Some amount of homoerotic horseplay seems to be almost unavoidable among brothers within close age. The issue is always whether a person is pressured, harmed, threatened, or kept from refusing / ceasing / leaving if and when they wish. I could see that story being harmless experimentation or a source of nightmares based entirely in the mental state of the people involved. If it disturbs you then it was wrong - you need no further justification than that (*). Now, it is absolutely possible your brother saw and felt nothing wrong and had / has no idea of any bad effect on you (if there is one). You can steel yourself up to bring it into conversation:

"You may not remember this but there was one particular incident between you, me, and Jim that really disturbed me. I felt he took advantage of me when I wasn't in a condition to understand enough to say no. And I'm honestly concerned about the safety of kids near him. Maybe you think I'm wrong but that's how I feel about it, and I just hope you'd give the issue thought before letting Jim around your son in a private setting. At least make sure the boy knows all the 'bad touch' issues. It really isn't worth the regret."

(* = I saw a fairly graphic example of this as a boy. I was 13 and so was my best friend at that time. His kid brother was 11. Without going into too much detail, the older brother made it very clear that they would now play their apparently usual dry-humping game - he called it "Prom Date" - right then and there. Younger brother objected to doing it *now* but older would not and did not take no for an answer. Younger's complaints and attitude, looking back now, suggest that this was something he was okay with (or liked) most of the time but he was distraught and humiliated at being made to show it in front of another older boy (me) in what turned into a very much of a sexual dominance display - really apparently for older brother to show off to me what he could do for fun. Younger brother several times shot me looks of pure unmistakeable anger - I didn't belong there, it was different with me there. Apart from that one incident I was with both of those brothers regularly hanging out for years and years and they seemed like normal brothers on good terms. Older brother was EXTREMELY sexually aggressive / suggestive basically at all times. He introduced me to some behaviors that I enjoyed at the time but there was no mistaking that it was always his initiation / insistence. Years later I ended our friendship when he raped his girlfriend and then forwarded me the email she'd sent him detailing her shock and confusion and not knowing how to go on with life - like it was a joke he wanted to share with me!! But P.S. she got back with him and married him. World is a messed up place.)
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"Don't think it hasn't been a little slice of Heaven just because it hasn't!" --Bugs Bunny

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#416641 - 11/19/12 02:56 PM Re: WTF - My Nephew on Adventure camp with my abuser [Re: Farmer Boy]
Farmer Boy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/23/12
Posts: 442
Loc: Australia
Thanks guys

I guess this just felt like more of the same. My older brother (16 at the time) was abusing me at the same time and it felt like it was all connected. Like these older boys all wanted to us me for sex. It reinforced the idea that this is what boys do together and made the rest of it 'ok'. I would say that the difference in age/maturity between 6 and 10 is big enough to be an issue. I don't know. I'll have to think about it a bit more. It is obviously a grey issue.

more comments welcome
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More than meets the eye!

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#416672 - 11/20/12 02:03 AM Re: WTF - My Nephew on Adventure camp with my abuser [Re: Farmer Boy]
Publius Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/13/12
Posts: 425
Loc: OH
Concerning your abuse it is my opinion that sexual precociousness does not exist in pre-pubescent boys and girls. Those who are in the midst of puberty, while curious and perhaps exploring their own sexuality, should do so on their own terms and with people their own age and never with any adults. Based on the shower story you told us I would suspect one of those boys was "taught" how to do those things at some point and was simply continuing the cycle of abuse with you. Was it his fault? Yes and no. A small minority of victims adopt the abusive mindset as a survival technique and I honestly don't think they stop without going through recovery.

A lot of us have trouble determining whether what happened in our past was abuse or not, however, I think it comes down to its impact on your life. The fact that someone thinks something might have been abuse usually makes me think it happened. I can recall a couple occasions with a boy and a girl when I was very young where we played "doctor." This involved no sexual acts whatsoever and left me with no sense of shame or guilt, rather I was confused as to whether or not her penis had fallen off and if so what that meant for me (little kid logic at its best) : P

I share your concern about your nephew. Frankly, I say go with your gut on this one. Furthermore, if you feel you are ready and only if you feel this way you should do exactly what you believe necessary to protect your nephew and his fellow scouts. He doesn't have to be sleeping in the same tent to get to them he just has to be there or "have a reason" for being around. The fact that he is a teacher who had an "incident" with one of his female students only serves to solidify my position.

My advice is to alert (anonymously if it helps) ALL of the scout leadership to that incident with the girl - there should be records if he was cited. Let them decide whether or not what happened at the school merits dismissal from the program. Generally speaking, teachers don't get reprimanded for "inappropriate behavior" unless it is something serious. After all, some of us know just how eager authorities can be to casually dismiss allegations as overreaction/fantasy/etc.

Use your best judgment!


Edited by Publius (11/20/12 02:08 AM)
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"Life is like this dark tunnel. You may not always see the light at the end of the tunnel, but if you keep moving, you will come to a better place." ~ General Iroh

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#416681 - 11/20/12 07:49 AM Re: WTF - My Nephew on Adventure camp with my abuser [Re: Farmer Boy]
Farmer Boy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/23/12
Posts: 442
Loc: Australia
Thanks Publius

Ok earlier today I was feeling pretty stupid for overreacting to this incident in the showers - like I was just being over sensitive. I was feeling very embarrassed that I even brought it up and wanted to delete the whole tread.

I have since come to the conclusion that it definitely was abuse. I guess I was down playing it in my original description and how it affected me. These boys that I looked up to in every way (4 years older than me) masterbated each other in front of me and then tried to push their erect penises into my bottom. Also I feel like more happened at other times but I have no clear memories.

I don't care what anyone says - that was NOT OK.

I tried to think 'what if this was the only thing that ever happened to me'. Would that have had an adverse affect on an average 6 year old - forgeting about their motives. The answer is of course it would.

I will be doing something about Jim. At this stage I think I'll write a letter to the national, state and local offices of the Boys Brigade - probably anonymously. I've got to follow my gut. I think WE all have a special sense that picks up on sexual preditors and this guy really sets off alarm bells. I am geniunely concerned that he hasn't changed and may hurt or already has hurt another child.

I'm sorry I got everybody stirred up about this but thankyou all for your input....really.
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More than meets the eye!

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#416688 - 11/20/12 08:58 AM Re: WTF - My Nephew on Adventure camp with my abuser [Re: Farmer Boy]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6602
Loc: FEMA Region 1
I have not read all the replies, but I've read your posts in this. I'm frozen in fear and KNOW (per my intuition) this guy is dirt. I KNOW (per my experience) these people do not fkg change.

I cannot tell you how I would end this turd. These people do not change! They don't. they dont ever ever ever change
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#416778 - 11/21/12 02:20 AM Re: WTF - My Nephew on Adventure camp with my abuser [Re: Farmer Boy]
WriterKeith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 955
Loc: southern California
Farmer Boy, Lee,

Please, do not EVER feel sorry for speaking up. You may save the next "Lee."
_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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