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#41655 - 09/20/05 07:26 PM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
alexey Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 1674
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Those f*ck*ng pigs raped me, and they made my life what it is. I feel like one of them, a soldier who is not going to show any weakness, but he does, he wnats to rape or kill some kid. I live a life where I show I am OK. Everybody, I am OK!!! That is what I vigorously try to say. I feel that I am a little pervert or an empty space, or a d*ck. I am this peverted but straight soldier in my feelings. In reality, I am not. Maybe I bought into this image, and probably I continue to cultivate it inside day by day. Those pigs, moral perverts, pieces of sh*t harmed all my life. I hate them. I hate them for teaching me how to turn your life into a piece of toilet paper. Pigs.

_________________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
E[:]|||||[:]3
(")_(")
--------
When you feel all alone and unhappy, turn to you Inner Child and talk to Him.
You will see He can comfort you like nothing else!

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#41656 - 09/20/05 10:57 PM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Alexey,

I am glad you can express your rage. But remember, please remember, that the heat of your anger does not validate any of your negative feelings about yourself. Your post shows a lot of conflict in dealing with this problem, and yes, blame them and rage against them. Yes, they were pigs and perverts.

But part of saying no is to reject the fantasy. You are nothing like them. You are okay. What is fucked up is what happened to you as a boy; as Alexei you are okay - you did nothing wrong. No, your life now is not toilet paper. You are not perverted. Try to see the difference between the reality of who you are and the sick fantasy that your abusers imposed on you.

Take care,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#41657 - 09/21/05 12:08 AM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Larry
You've understood EXACTLY what I'm getting at, thanks for adding your painful story to this discussion.

At 52yo I have had sex with more men than women, but I know that I'm not gay in as much as I never actually fancy other men.
Up to the age of 16 I think I had sex with 13 or 14 different older boys and adult males, and since then 'only' about 6 or 7.
The driver in every case since I left school at 16 was my fantasy, and although I know that the fantasy is a direct result of my abuse I'm wondering how come it's so deep rooted and difficult to overcome?

After all, I have reduced my fantasy to an extent that I can usually switch it off fairly quickly, and I don't ever act out any more. So some degree of success is possible - I know that - but is this inherited fantasy always going to remain with me?
I don't know the answer, and I don't suppose anyone else does. And the truth is that if this is as good as it gets then that's OK with me.

My fantasy is however based on the actions, and obvious fantasies, of the abuser who was sexually aware rather than the initial predator.
This second boy at the age of 13 had the knowledge and confidence to engage me in his fantasies.
Very like Larry's scoutmaster this boy had me 'work to a>
_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#41658 - 09/21/05 12:19 AM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Alexey
Larry's right, they're the 'pigs' not you.

You are so much better than they are, you care about yourself - why else would you be here?
And you care about others, we can see that.

Take care.
Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#41659 - 09/21/05 04:42 AM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
TJ jeff Offline

Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 3389
Loc: Northern Wisconsin
2 days and I hav'nt been able to get this thread out of my head - must mean it's something important to me I guess...

I guess I can start by saying that abuse by my Uncle did'nt make me gay (it's kinda made me shy away from sex altogether - though I have had 3 girlfriends in my life - 2 of those were set-up's by other friends though)

I was 4 and he was 12 when it started - it went on for about 5 years - he was unable to get any girlfriends - I guess I sort of fulfilled a 'need' for him - but I have never known if it was any sort of actual 'fantasy' for him or not

To be honest - a part of me prays that it was no fantasy invovled for him

I have always looked at it from a logical perspective as him having 'needs' that I was used to take care of...

I guess I am the one left with the question "Was there any fantasy involved?" and "How would I know if there was fantasy involved?"

I can never expect my Uncle to answer those questions...

_________________________
Who will cry for the little boy? - I will... - Antwone Fisher

Abuse happens in silence/isolation - Recovery happens only when that silence/isolation is broken...

TJ's History

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#41660 - 09/21/05 06:35 AM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
OKIE MIKE Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/04
Posts: 982
Loc: HULBERT OK
At the age of 18 while in the US army I was raped by a superor and it has not turned me gay or caused any sort of sexual pervresion . my wife has tolf be that I was a little kinky a couple of times but that is it .
I do believe that child molesters and rapests should not have a stature of limitatins on there crime
The state of Texas and the US Army refuse to even let me file charges and presue the person that raped me because of the stature of limitations .
People need to start contacting there lawmakers and have the law changed so that thease peopple can be arrested and tryed for there crimes no matter how long ago that they happened . My rape happened in 1977 and if I could ever find the SOB that raped me what the law would to him would be nothing comparied to what I would do to him .
Sory for the out burst But the law does need to be change to find thease people and have them pay for there crimes .

Plaese Excuse my typeing and spelling

_________________________
MICHAEL

"I HAD NO SHOES THEN I SAW A MAN THAT HAD NO FEET"

"All I can do is be me, whoever that is"

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#41661 - 09/21/05 12:14 PM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
***More triggers I guess***

Just responding to where this thread has gone since yesterday, and specifically to Jeff's comment about his abusing uncle:

Quote:
To be honest - a part of me prays that it was no fantasy involved for him.
I think there must always be some kind of fantasy involved. Not "fantasy" in a cute comedy sense of course, but in the sense that the abuser must surely be asking himself what is going on and what the whole business means. What is he chasing? What does he want? What is he doing? Sexuality is an area of such huge importance in any society. How can these questions not arise? That said, the abuser's answers to these questions must be fantastic in some way or another, unless his answer is something like: "I'm raping a child. Oops." And the chances are that this fantasy will somehow pass on to the child, who is also wondering what the hell is going on. Isn't that what the self-loathing, fear and acting out are all about?

So Jeff, I would just ask this: Can it be that your uncle at 12 would not even wonder about servicing his "needs" with his 4-year-old nephew? He was a child himself, so perhaps his fantasy was something as simple as: "This is okay. No one will ever know."

This thread has encouraged me to face some things that I had thought I would never be able to admit, much less discuss or cope with (well, assuming that this is coping). That is, I don't think this is me inventing my own little counter-fantasy. We all know that childhood is the crucial time when we are imprinted with all sorts of things that will define who we are. That would include all sorts of experiences, even those we wish had never occurred.

That doesn't mean we are what our abusers created. Once we realize that our abusers were "performing" or acting out a fantasy, we can also realize that a fantasy is exactly what the word means: an unreal and false explanation for something. Mike was no one's "bitch" or surrogate whore. Dave was never a homosexual slut. I never owed four years of sex in return for the "affection" of someone pretending to replace my supposedly unloving father. It was all tricks and lies.

That's as far as we need to go. The whys and hows beyond that are endless and unanswerable. There's only one thing more I think we need to remember and to me this seems crucial. In my own case and others mentioned here where abusing adults are concerned, yes, I think behind the fantasy the reality is somehow all about control. The need to reduce a victim to utter powerlessness and worthlessness seems to be a common thread that runs through all these examples. And that's exactly why we can't shift the whole stinking thing. Our abusers DID reduce us to nothing, they DID render us helpless, they DID treat us as if we weren't worth a thing. All that actually HAPPENED. Just as we don't get to forget all that, we don't get to forget the fantasy attached to it. Perhaps walking on the path of recovery involves allowing ourselves to admit that.

Maybe this isn't so grim as it sounds. For one thing, if I can't forget my abuser's fantasy I sure can reject it and deny responsibility for it. I know I will always remember how he messed with my head and ruined my relationship with my father for years. But I can also see that the reality behind this was all about a sick adult controlling and manipulating an innocent and trusting child. It wasn't my fault.

For another thing, remembering that crap for what it was makes me appreciate my Dad even more today. I love him to bits and he knows it. We are like best friends and every moment we have together is special. I know I have years of work still ahead of me, but one of the most important things my abuser took from me I already have back.

As I write this it suddenly strikes me that no therapist gave that to me or figured it out for me and no pills made me brave. I just wanted it back and I took it. Not bad. I must remember this.

I hope this makes sense. I know I have been talking myself through this as I go.

Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#41662 - 09/21/05 08:40 PM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
ForeverFighting Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1058
Loc: New Mexico, USA
I was pretty young when the SA started, and I was set up by my family to believe I was unloveable. So I'd have to say that if there was any fantasy involved in my uncle's SA of me, it was probably my own. I don't think I could make sense of what was being done to me without believing a whole bunch of fantasies like: This is my fault. He's actually loving me. It's because I'm blonde. I could stop this if I just did the right thing. This is all I'm good for.

I don't know about perp fantasies. It's my own attempts at making myself feel safe by fantacising my own way through the SA that stayed with me. And I can't seem to shake them. The fantasies seem reversed now, though. I mean, if I feel extremely unsafe and out of control, I think about highlighting my hair again. If I can be that blonde boy, only better, then I can control how people treat me. That's what the fantasy is. The problem is that it's not reality and never will be. I end up flirting and f****** myself and porn and all this stuff that part of my brain still holds onto. But after it's all over, I'm still out of control, feeling powerless, and stressed out of my mind. Only now, I have guilt and worthlessness and emptiness and feel dirty and ugly, the same feelings I had 30 years ago.

So, I'd ask Dave's question this way. "So how come we grow up believing the fantasies of a child?" And how do I convince my own mind that those fantasies don't work anymore?

_________________________
ForeverFighting

"This search for the truth--it's not for the faint of heart."--Goren on 'Law & Order: CI'
"The former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart."--Isaiah 65:17

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#41663 - 09/22/05 12:21 AM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Something else I've thought since reading these replies is the use of fantasy as an escape from reality.
For me certainly, fantasy was a normal part of my life so it was natural that I used it as a coping statergy during the abuse.
As a small boy I lived out in the country with no other kids close by, so I used my imagination when I played, I was the cowboy and the indian as I chased myself around the woods.

I did the same thing at boarding school to escape the rigid life we led, I would escape through fantasy - daydreaming.
So when these older boys introduced me to their fantasies, and they became real, it has to be said that because they contained a big element of physical pleasure and the excitement of secrecy, this sudden rush of new emotions and sensations became very deeply imprinted.

It's been proved with experiments on animals that the most effective way of changing and influencing behaviours is by rewarding the animals with either food or sex, so it's hardly surprising that as a boy I bought into their fantasy / behaviours because for the most part I was rewarded for sex. Even if it was only cigarettes or a 'show' of friendship, however false that might have been.
Even after a beating and gang rape by these two ringleaders and a few others under their influence I 'overlooked' that because they said 'sorry' and became 'my friends' again.
I basically bought into their lifestyle, and inevitably adopted their fantasies - to a large degree.

I have never abused or even fantasised about sex with young people, but the sex acts and the dynamics of the abuse of power that happened back then have lived with me ever since the day the abuse stopped, and I then dressed them up in new fantasies in such a way that I thought I was reclaiming my power back, the power I lost to them.

My fantasy is a tight and specific one, and the more I think about it the clearer it becomes.
It involves me giving bj's to other men, and sometimes recieving anal sex. Basically both acts of submission to another person, they certainly were for me as a boy no matter how well I was groomed to act as the slut and ask for sex.
So, as an adult I somehow thought that if I could re-create these acts but do them on MY TERMS then I could exorcise them from my mind.

Which led to my acting out.
But because I was so focused on doing these sex acts on my terms and having total control of a submissive act, the whole process of engaging in sex with other men actually became impossible, and ultimately so frustrating ( without me realising any of this ) that it led to more and more futile attempts.
How could I possibly take full control and be submissive?
This generally led to bizzare situations where I would flee halfway through the act because the other man said something, or asked me to do something that instantly put them in control. I even ended up fighting with someone to get away.

My fantasy does go back to my abusers, or at least one of them. He praised me constantly for my 'skills' and was a very verbal person during sex.
That's where I learned ALL my sex education, the school taught us fuck all except how frogs reproduce.

From somewhere he knew about sex, I'm 99% sure it was the teacher who also abused me for a brief time that 'taught' him.
This sequence of abuse through generations created a monster in the form of introducing sex into the minds of impressionable boys, who processed it in the only way we knew how. The wrong way.

I'm convinced that fantasy was their driver. They lived in their fantasy and firmly believed that what they were doing wasn't wrong, it did no harm, we enjoyed it and it was of benefit to us.
Thankfully my fantasy evolved in a different way, but evolve it did.

At it's worst about 6 or 7 years ago I was driven in a way I can barely imagine now. I had no control of the fantasy - acting out sequence, so I know how powerful these things are. I also firmly believe that the only difference between my fantasy and theirs is the actual direction each took. In that respect I'm sure that I have a common link with my abusers, just through the unstoppable force that can be attached and involved in fantasy, especially when it takes on a life of its own.

I'm not saying this to justify their actions, far from it. But just to try and understand the force of the drivers behind their actions, and then to break that force that they passed on to me.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#41664 - 09/22/05 06:30 AM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
alexey Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 1674
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Larry, Dave, thank you. You have said very kind words. Good luck to you.

Alexey

_________________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
E[:]|||||[:]3
(")_(")
--------
When you feel all alone and unhappy, turn to you Inner Child and talk to Him.
You will see He can comfort you like nothing else!

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