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#41645 - 09/17/05 06:05 PM Who's fantasy is it anyway?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
"men who fantasize boylover or pedophile scenarios are framing their conceptualizations from the adult perspective.
With a boylover,he sodomizes a boy and turns the kid into a homosexual slut. The pedophile sexualizes a little girl and she becomes his slave mistress slut. This is dreamland stuff,not reality."


This is a small part of an email I recieved from a Survivor friend of mine, and it's part of a discussion we're having about "does man - boy abuse make you gay?" , which we both agree it doesn't.

So how come we grow up believing our abusers fantasies?
As my friend says, what we went through was THEIR adult fantasy, it wasn't ours, but they are often so clever that they transfer their fantasy to us, and we believe it.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#41646 - 09/18/05 06:57 AM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
Dave, do you really think we bought into our abuser's fantasies? I know I didn't. I didn't even know what their (his) fantasies were. I still don't. Nor do I care.

Quote:

"and it's part of a discussion we're having about 'does man - boy abuse make you gay?', which we both agree it doesn't."

I don't know if it makes you gay, but it sure doesn't promote healthy heterosexual behaviours.
My guess is that it triggers inappropriate behaviours both gay and straight.
Just my thoughts on it. Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

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#41647 - 09/18/05 10:46 AM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
***TRIGGERS***

Painful as it is to admit it, I have to say I did buy into my abuser's fantasies. By the age of 12 he had convinced me that my own father didn't love me and considered me a failure as a son. During sexual encounters he got me to call him "Daddy", tell him "yes Daddy", and other things I will leave to the imagination.

It didn't happen overnight of course. But as your own sense of worth and self-respect is eroded away it is easy for the perp to replace it with whatever he wants. What else, if not his own fantasy, whatever that happens to be?

Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#41648 - 09/19/05 09:29 PM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
alexey Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 1674
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Triggers

I am not very familiar with this discussion, but I can share my feelings in the same vane. Sometimes, I feel like a good man and I stop self-destructing. However, I maybe easily triggered by the TV news discussing pedophiles. Also, I can be triggered by real life content. Then I just start to think differently, feel arousal, sexual feelings, and became sick. I have figured out recently that there is something in my mind very sensitive to such information, related to pedophiles. I feel constantly balancing between these feelings, and normal ones.

I think the idea of believing in the feelings of the perps is not based upon facts. However, I could by the power of will, and reason, stop the sexual arousal when I worked a lot on the issue of the perps' actions. If I deal with the pain I got in the childhood, and especially brought by the perps, I can control my sexual feelings. The point is that as the time passes, the feelings return.

Alexey

_________________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
E[:]|||||[:]3
(")_(")
--------
When you feel all alone and unhappy, turn to you Inner Child and talk to Him.
You will see He can comfort you like nothing else!

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#41649 - 09/19/05 09:42 PM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
scooter Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/05
Posts: 76
Quote:
Originally posted by roadrunner:
***TRIGGERS***

During sexual encounters he got me to call him "Daddy", tell him "yes Daddy", and other things I will leave to the imagination.

That's tough. It's triggering something in me. I don't know what. I need a break, some room to breath. Fck.

Sorry. I'm glad you said that. Just need to go.


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#41650 - 09/19/05 10:08 PM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Quote:
During sexual encounters he got me to call him "Daddy", tell him "yes Daddy", and other things I will leave to the imagination.
Wasn't that the abusers fantasy?

I guess each abuser has their own fantasy, or at least one particular type of abuser is fantasy driven.

Some are driven by the abuse of power, and their kicks come from having control, the older boy who groomed me initially then passed me onto his friend. His kick had been fulfilled, and although he did have sex with me again it wasn't regular, and he certainly showed no imagination as far as sex was concerned.

The older boy who took over however was a 'fantasy merchant' and made me enter his fantasies, and he was sexually and fantasy driven. He showed imagination ( I'm sorry, I can't think of a better way to describe it )towards sex.

Guess which of them had the greater influence on me?
The second one, because my young mind was an enquiring one that was looking for excitement in the tightly regulated boarding school environment, and he gave it to me. I've been trying to shake free of it ever since.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#41651 - 09/19/05 10:18 PM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
Dave - It wasn't a fantasy at all, was it? Fantasies may have precluded their actions, but it was reality we lived through. That reality involved inappropriate, damaging sexual actions and physical arousal. Right or wrong, obviously wrong in our scenarios, erotic feelings and actions that cause arousal are stamped on the psyche at the moment they happen. We're supposed to learn about sex with our peers, usually later in life than when the abuse occurred (I was 9 years old when it started). And, depending on our sexual orientation, we learn it with the gender we are attracted to, hopefully. I hadn't had sex yet, with a boy or a girl. I got aroused by my male abuser's touch, despite my fear and confusion. This lead to further confusion, in life and in fantasy. I am not gay, though I acted out with men.

The more I write in this post the more I feel my anger building. This was no fantasy at all, if only it had been, none of us would be here trying to sort these things out. I think your survivor friend is having some sort of delusional episode (no disrespect intended). And what is the difference between a 'boy-lover' (disgusting term to begin with) and a pedophile? Child predators, whether they are male or female preying on boys or girls don't need to be distinguished, they are one in the same. - John


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#41652 - 09/20/05 12:09 AM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
John
Of course I was never suggesting that what happened was fantasy, only that fantasy fueled the actions of my one abuser, and I sometimes wonder where he gained such vivid fantasies at that age?

The original point I was trying to make is that what happened to us - stayed with us in some form or another. And some aspects are so deep rooted we don't seem able to shift them, I'm wondering why they're so deep rooted?

And why as a 52yo married man who has never looked at another man in any kind of sexual way i still have fantasies about giving bj's.

That train of fantasy has possibly gone through generations , and by that I mean it's been passed on in the wrong manner, and at the wrong time - abusively.

As you say "we're supposed to learn sex from our peers, usually later in life", but the whole process was shifted backwards and became indelibly set in our minds. And I think that's why it's so hard to shift.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#41653 - 09/20/05 01:23 PM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
***More triggers, I'm afraid ***

What Dave means, if I have understood all this correctly, is that when an abuser engages in acts of abuse he often tries to hide the fact that what he is doing is brutalizing an innocent frightened child. He covers this up by seeing his abuse or "performing" it in terms of some meaning or fantasy that he invents for himself. So he figures that he isn't really raping a child, or if he is, it doesn't matter. Why not? Because the child is already a homosexual slut anyway (example given by Dave's friend). Or because the child wanted it or liked it, whatever. We all know the drill.

This is on Dave's mind because he is wondering about this big question:

Quote:
So how come we grow up believing our abusers fantasies? As my friend says, what we went through was THEIR adult fantasy, it wasn't ours, but they are often so clever that they transfer their fantasy to us, and we believe it.
I guess this brings me back again to my own childhood, which I mentioned briefly on this thread. This is more of the same, for those of you who may not want to continue. Posting what I said already made me physically ill yesterday, but maybe it is something I need to get out. I could not include it all in the survivor story I posted awhile ago - wonder why?

My abuser was a Boy Scout leader and his fantasy was clearly something about a sick world in which boys exist to serve the sexual needs of "father" figures and should be grateful for the attentions of "Daddy". I was asthmatic as a child (and still am), and as the abuse continued my abuser gradually shifted from explaining how special I was in general to the revelation that my own father really didn't love me. I was too sick too often and was never going to be the macho sporty kid he wanted. My Dad was a tough guy who was disgusted that his only son was a bookworm who loved school. Blah blah blah. But HE of course loved me to bits, and that's why we were doing all these things. And for that I should of course be grateful - after all, it was for me, not for him. I should call him "Daddy", say "yes Daddy" when he asked did I want it, tell him "f*ck me Daddy" when he was in me, ask "Daddy" for more, and so on.

Why I bought into all this is still a huge question for me. One part of it was that my perp was clever and cruel. On scout outings the fathers would sometimes sit around in the evenings and chat, and I guess a lot of that would have been about their sons. So he would have had a framework of true things that would be enough to trick an 11-year-old kid into believing all the garbage he hung on it. I now know I wasn't the only one he hooked.

I guess the other part comes down to Dave's question. I was 11 and in those days a kid that age knew nothing about sex and really wasn't interested all that much. By the time I was 12, however, I had a full range of sexual experiences, all justified in terms of my perp's fantasy. I had no explanation of my own for what was happening to me. I was ashamed, frightened and alone, and I had to have something to believe in. Nothing from my experiences with my family or in the rest of the world helped me, and I had been warned that if I told my parents they would be furious and put me in an orphanage. So Dave, I guess I believed him because that was all there was to believe. I knew there was something very wrong about the whole mess, but by the time I got that figured out I was already feeling worthless and unloveable. Maybe it was all sick, but I didn't deserve any better. If my abuser wanted me only for sex, okay, at least someone wanted me for something.

On why this junk is so difficult to shift, maybe this is an area where the idea of the inner child is useful. As an adult I have gradually been able to rebuild a great relationship with my father. He is one of the few people I can hug, and I tell him I love him every day we are together. It tears me to pieces that I was never able to tell him what happened. But "Little Larry" looks at the situation with horror and wonders how he got tricked so badly. He is absolutely consumed with guilt and shame and wants "Big Larry" to forget any idea of telling Dad what happened.

Recovery is a path rather than a destination I guess. So even when Little Larry knows and accepts that none of this was his fault, he will still recall how it felt asking "Daddy" and will sometimes rehearse the fantasy that was imprinted in him, and maybe "Little Dave" will always recall how it felt out on the street and relive that from time to time. Maybe these things are just part of our trauma history as individuals, like fighting in a war or going through a catastrophic relationship. Maybe we are just on the sharp edge of the argument that life isn't fair and have to learn to move on and keep that fact from dominating everything we do and think and are.

I would love to replace that with a more optimistic outlook, if anyone has suggestions.

Take care,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#41654 - 09/20/05 05:32 PM Re: Who's fantasy is it anyway?
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
POSSIBLE TRIGGERS

The three guys who raped my repeatedly were using me, I think, as a surrogate female whore. It was at Military College and I was 16. It started as hazing and wound up in a full blown sexual thing. I wll never forget one of them saying. "Boys come to this school become men. We are going to make you our Bitch". And they did with every sick cruel and painful thing they could think of. While under this control for 9 months I learned that I was really good at being a sex toy and that I was not much good for anything else.
AND DAMMIT I BELIEVED IT. I bought they whole damned thing and I still have trouble accepting that it had nothing to do with me.

As a child my life was abusive and college was just taking it to a higher level (i dont know what else to call it).

This followed me for 40 years being 1. am prostitute for 3 years and by acting out till I was 56.
Was it their fantasy I bought into . Or were they just amoral and needed sexual gratification and I was better than an knothole in a fence and warmer. Fantasy or not it influenced me all my life and it still does to a certain exent. Pedolphiles, boy lovers, perverts!! I dont give a shit. They fucked with me and my life and like Dave I still feel the pull even though I have been married to a wonderful woman for 38 years.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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