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#414446 - 10/27/12 07:52 AM Re: How do I forgive God? [Re: dark empathy]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2017
Loc: durham, north england
@alive, thanks for that suggestion. I am a big fan of c s lewis writings but that is one of his I haven't read. While I do not agree with all of his conclusions, he has some extremely ensiteful things to say.

@Phenix, as in fact lewis would say, "The church" (any church), and behaviour of those who follow the church is not reflective of God in the least. I would not confuse the two myself, indeed the church of england basically told my mum to get lost because they couldn't stand the idea of a blind female priest who wanted to minister to disabled children, so i have little respect for the organization. That being said, I have met some very good individual vicars, it's just a case of meeting people one at a time and not judging them by the actions of an institution.

I am not sure myself how exactly the god working "Through" people thing works either, but one thing I do know is that just because someone claimes to work for god doesn't stop them working for themselves or for some other end, history has taught us that religion can justify any wrong, particularly ironic when so many religions argue the oposite.

@nltsave, I'm sorry if I can't just shut up and follow the crowd and accept the christian message "because it's what lots of other people do" or because it's what a book tells me to do, you might as well tell me to go and listen to pop music or like sports. Sorry if you call this pride, I call it living! in fact, if various religious people hadn't done exactly the same thing for 2000 years where would we be now? still with oliver cromwell and the witch finder army or the inquisition or salvation buy paying money to the church that's where.
I can accept that people find comfort in following an ideal, and I admit like a good scheptic that any conclusion I draw might be wrong, however I would please ask for the same acceptance from others. I asked this question for genuine want of knolidge and understanding, not to be castigated for daring to think, ---- indeed if I did! believe that was what God wanted of people I'd certainly not be trying to seak a deeper understanding or a closer relationship to God.


Indeed if it is a question of "Faith" I would ask exactly why I am here trying to gain a greater understanding of something I once knew, rather than just saying "oh sodit! that was a silly childhood fantasy probably caused by my brain releasing endaufins as a result of traumatic surgery" and simply go off to become a complete nihilist.

Perhaps this recognition that I did! experience somethig worth while and wish to recapture it even at the cost of anger is! what faith is, not a belief without proof or a following of a set ideal but simply a recogntion and a search?

I'll have to think about that one.


Edited by dark empathy (10/27/12 08:00 AM)

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#414456 - 10/27/12 10:33 AM Re: How do I forgive God? [Re: dark empathy]
Magellan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1410
Loc: California
Hey Dark Empathy,

I can relate to everything you said in your last post. As for your question "I am not sure myself how exactly the god working "Through" people thing works", I've found something that I can believe in and testify to.

I have found much support from people in Alanon (12 step recovery program for people affected by other people's drinking). My higher power evolved to listening to the COLLECTIVE wisdom of the people in the group. Not 1 person has the answer to my quandary, but if I put the question and struggle to the group, I can be sure, if I'm patient, to receive the answer from my higher power from the chorus of voices and suggestions and offerings from many people who heard my question / quandary.

It is the collective chorus of voices talking back to me that contains the insight and wisdom that I need to move forward. Since getting smacked back down in my recovery this past month, I've resorted to going to at least 3 or 4 Alanon meetings every week, and to start talking about my struggle. I don't understand how to be intimate, and I don't know how to start trusting people. I hope (faith?) that the answer will come to me through the wisdom of the people gathered together who are all seeking answers to similar issues.

D
_________________________
It's a heroes journey, and you are the hero.

Loving Kindness Meditation will dramatically improve your spirits; give it a try for just 3 days: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz7cpV7ERsM

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#414473 - 10/27/12 03:23 PM Re: How do I forgive God? [Re: Magellan]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Originally Posted By: Magellan
Hey Dark Empathy,

I can relate to everything you said in your last post. As for your question "I am not sure myself how exactly the god working "Through" people thing works", I've found something that I can believe in and testify to.

I have found much support from people in Alanon (12 step recovery program for people affected by other people's drinking). My higher power evolved to listening to the COLLECTIVE wisdom of the people in the group. Not 1 person has the answer to my quandary, but if I put the question and struggle to the group, I can be sure, if I'm patient, to receive the answer from my higher power from the chorus of voices and suggestions and offerings from many people who heard my question / quandary.

It is the collective chorus of voices talking back to me that contains the insight and wisdom that I need to move forward. Since getting smacked back down in my recovery this past month, I've resorted to going to at least 3 or 4 Alanon meetings every week, and to start talking about my struggle. I don't understand how to be intimate, and I don't know how to start trusting people. I hope (faith?) that the answer will come to me through the wisdom of the people gathered together who are all seeking answers to similar issues.

D


Magellan,

To me, intimacy is sex. As far as trusting others, I didn't know how to trust the right ones and trusted the wrong ones. So, now, I trust almost no one. I don't trust God much either. I don't trust me either many times. Learning to by getting rid of self-hate. Thanks, God, there.
_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#414532 - 10/28/12 07:20 AM Re: How do I forgive God? [Re: dark empathy]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2017
Loc: durham, north england
@magellan, well what you describe doing in al anon meetings is sort of what I'm trying here and why I'm asking on ms, sinse I'm certain that others have insites and experiences that would be valuable for me to considder and think about, which is exactly why I believe discussion and enquiry so important, heck I have! studdied philosophy for the last 10 years.

@phenix, intimacy is complicated, and probably a separate thing to divinity. On one level the religious experiences I've had were about as intimate as it's possible to be, on another they were totally devorced from physical human experience and therefore had nothing at all s/xual about them sinse the body was not involved.


Though I suffer genophobia, I do not suffer fear of intimacy, sinse to me the two things are separate entities, indeed part of the experience I've wanted with a relationship would be a physical experience of intimacy.

Therefore, though it does constitute a vulnerability I don't feel that having a communicative experience of the devine if you like to put it that way would be a bad thing, however I'm not finding that experience either however open I make myself and whatever old meditations I try which is why I feel abandoned by the God I used to know.

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#414572 - 10/28/12 06:44 PM Re: How do I forgive God? [Re: dark empathy]
Country Offline


Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 642
Loc: Alabama
It is normal for survivors and people in general to blame others. We can indeed blame our perp for our being abused as some of the issues we faced afterwards. If we ask God to prove something to us then we are gonna be waiting a long time. U don't have to forgive God. He never asked for ur forgiveness. Point blank answer. I mean he fact all of the questioning proves for a sense of more and someone wanting to be able to experience more. If you look for man to answer these questions then it may be a while. I pray tat all can feel Hod as I haw and experience His transformation. God bless and best wishes to all
_________________________
Ephesians 6:13

Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.

Ephesians 5:25

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

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#414586 - 10/28/12 10:22 PM Re: How do I forgive God? [Re: dark empathy]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Guys, unlike what Country said, I really don't think God cares if you get mad at him, or blame him for things. Look how many people thank him for shit he has nothing to do with. lol I say, get mad and tell him exactly how you feel. He can take it or he ain't God. My biggest problem was the help in the flesh (a friend or a mate) he never sent me. It's like for 17 years I didn't count to him unless I was doing shit for him, or somebody or some church that turned around and treated me like shit. That's really my only beef. He can send it to everyone else. Why was I so different? It does reinforce some self-hate and pisses me off. He sent all kinds of people to try and help my sperm donor, but nothing for me. That's what I don't get.
_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#414750 - 10/30/12 01:23 PM Re: How do I forgive God? [Re: dark empathy]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2017
Loc: durham, north england
@Country I can see your point, however I'm not really sure being angry at God for causing! specific things makes sense at least to me. God was not involved in my abuse or any other bad experience I've had, such things were states of the world not specific actions or intentions. You can blaim someone for deliberately hurting you but God did not take deliberate action. blaiming god for my abuse would be a bit like blaiming the Mayor of nottingham who opened the school where everything happened back in the 1970's. I can blaime the people involved, i can blaime the teachers who were more interested in getting their paychecks than wanting to know there was a problem, but can I blaime the mayor for cutting the ribbon on the school gates all those years ago and walking away?

if I blaime god for my abuse, i'd be blaiming god for the entire state of the world, every bad thing that has happened to everyone sinse the dawn of history, and that's just not really something it's logically easy to blaime someone for.

What I do feel bothered about is God's absense, I could almost say abandonment. I don't know whether this is something, some lack in myself, but blaiming myself for not being "good enough" to address god would be far too easy an option, plus if I did acknolidge that God was only there! for the happy, together people who weren't suffering then that makes any sort of actual wish to relate to or worship god pretty hollow, you might as well thank the exercize bike for making you fit, even though the bike will only help you when you! have the perciverence to use it.

This is my current problem with God, that in the depths of utter dispare, God was not! around, God was not! supporting me, I was abandoned, whatever I tried God was just utterly absent. my fault perhaps for not trying hard enough, but if it's all down to me anyway then what is the point of God? what does meditation and prayer and soul searching actually do! if God simply isn't available at the worst points of life.

@phenix, i'm still not certain myself exactly how God relates to "sending people"

I've heard the joke about the drowning man who asks god to save him, then refuses the two boats and the rescue hellicopter because he's waiting for god, but that is waaaaaay too easy. For example, in my own recovery the single thing that has helped me most is this site. However, obviously the people here who've been there to help me wouldn't! have been had they not been abuse survivers. So should I start thanking god that guys on here have been abused and thus were in a position to be there for me? ---- I think not!

it always strikes me the "god sends people" attitude is more like a form of positive thinking or a way of seeing the best in different situations rather than anything that you can trace to something literal. i always remember for instance in cori temboons' memoires of being sent to oushvits (sorry for mangled spellings), how when they went to the bunk rooms the rooms were covered in flees. Cori was not exactly thrilled about spending nights in beds swarming with flees, but her sister was absolutely adamant that the these were "Gods flees!" and were there for a reason.

A little later when her sister became extremely ill, she was assigned to go to the bunk rooms and spend all days sewing, but actually got to sleep herself well because the guards kept out of the bunk rooms due to the flees. Cory saw this as God's direct intervention, but i'm not as convinced. After all, all the people sleeping in the bunk rooms still had to endure flee bights all night, and would've likely been better off without them.

however by maintaining a belief that "god had a reason" for something it meant she was able to see a positive in a given situation, which i suppose is the core of religious belief.

unfortunately though, positive attitudes and I do not particularly agree. I've learnt too well not to considder the glass at all sinse it will always! be half empty, and just considder it a good drink while I'm drinking it.

So, I'm not really sure on god having any guidance in events, or whether that is a view I could maintain myself. Again, this might be a lack in myself or in my own abilities to adopt propper attitudes to God, but sinse such attitudes are based on inherent factors which require! the right mental state, it once again comes back to god being god of the happy people, or at least of those people with the right attitude towards God even if they do! experience suffering, , and if you aren't in that position tough luck!.

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#414752 - 10/30/12 01:29 PM Re: How do I forgive God? [Re: dark empathy]
Magellan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1410
Loc: California
Help often does not come in the form that we expect it to. It often comes from places we least expect or desire.

God's way of sending help is God's way. Who are we to question that or demand that God do it OUR way?

Speaking from personal experience.

D
_________________________
It's a heroes journey, and you are the hero.

Loving Kindness Meditation will dramatically improve your spirits; give it a try for just 3 days: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz7cpV7ERsM

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#414770 - 10/30/12 04:48 PM Re: How do I forgive God? [Re: dark empathy]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Originally Posted By: dark empathy
@phenix, i'm still not certain myself exactly how God relates to "sending people"


Someone local I could talk that's been through what I have been through and offer guidance. A friend not someone paid to sit there. That's what I need more than anything right now. I did it for a lot of people and not one of them wanted to listen to me and my stuff. MS is great. But, I haven't really ever had anyone to talk to in the flesh about this stuff (and much more I will not put on a public internet BB).


Edited by phoenix321 (10/30/12 04:51 PM)
_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#414905 - 10/31/12 06:39 PM Re: How do I forgive God? [Re: dark empathy]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2017
Loc: durham, north england
The problem with essentially saying "well god will do it in god's own way" again comes back to the question of positive attitude, being sure that God is! there, and that god will! do something, then atributing any positive factors in improvement to God but letting god off the hook for the negative ones.

I'm reminded of that monty python version of all things bright and beautifull, "All things dull and uggerly, all creatures short and squat, all things foul and dangerous, the lord God made the lot!"

also, what I find hard to handle is that at one time I did! know god, I knew where God was, I was certain that I'd had a direct experience of God, and in fact coped with losing most of my site, all of my friends and changing schools to an emotionally abusive boarding school by! remembering that experience.

During recovery though,it just seemed god was not! there.

I could thank God for ms, ---- but why should god get the credit for that rather than all the guys here. i could thank god for my own persistance, ---- but sinse my own shitty persistance only happened because I was too stubborn to quit, and wouldn't likely have been necessary if I'd been sure I knew whee God was, why should I thank god for that.

Indeed, thanking god for either of those things would be tantamount to thanking god for buggering off and not! being there, - which is just plane illogical.

I admit I really admire the sort of attitude people have where by they can see positives in any situation, indeed stories like cori tem boom's above I find extremely humbling, but that just doesn't seem a capacity I have within myself, or at least not one I have sinse feeling abandoned by god, ---- or maybe more accurately simply apart from God.

It would be very easy to blaime myself for this. To just see it as another part of my own worthlessness. Before my abuse I was able to be close to God, but then when I was abused it just proved my worthlessness to everyone, God included. I know however to misstrust that sort of thinking intrinsically, because my own evaluation of myself is not unbiased, and particularly in religious matters it is too easy to confuse humility and self loathing, (I wouldn't be the first person in history to do as much).

Maybe there isn't an answer, or maybe it's true that suffering, and not sin is truly what separates us from god. Maybe in the future I'll have some sort of experience of natural beauty or meditation that will put god and I back on speaking terms and at that point I can rethink these years of abandonment, however with the data I have now and the experience I have now I am not sure how such a thing would work.

I do however appreciate hereing others perspectives and thoughts on this, sinse if nothing else it shows me different aspects or ideas of God which people have. Even if I myself cannot share them, i do appreciate learning them.

@phenix, I am not sure there really is an answer to the lack of a friend, but again whether I'd attribute this to God I don't know.

If a person is locked into solitary confinement, is allowd to see nobody and communicate with nobody, would God be responsable for the person having no friend to confide in? or would the responsability just be that of the guards on the prison, and the authority who condemned the prisoner.

If we believe that God directly! influencers events, then the prisoner has every right to blaime god, sinse even if the prison was out in the middle of the ocean or somewhere equally unreachable, God could, through having all the omnies simply spirit someone there even against physical lores or the wishes of the prisoners' jailers.

If however the responsability for the prisoner's loneliness just rests with those around him, then "god" isn't involved, accept by the strength God gives to the prisoner himself.

It's this second lack that I have trouble letting God off the hook for myself, though I can quite understand blaiming god if you do! believe god sends! people around from here to there as a response to prayers or faith or whatever.


When I was 9 I visited a shrine at walsingham, (a catholic shrine though I belong to church of england), and bathed my eyeballs in a supposedly holy spring that had healing powers. nothing happened, however I didn't feel the need to blaime god at the time for this, sinse I knew! god was there with me anyway making the lack of working eyebalsl less significant.

That is the knolidge I've lost, though if you don't have that sense of god I can quite understand the blaime thing anyway.

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