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#414332 - 10/26/12 07:38 AM How do I forgive God?
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2024
Loc: durham, north england
Back when I was 7 and lost the sight of my right eye, I what I now believe was a genuine experience of the presense presence of God. I can't describe this experience exactly without using various mystical and rather nonsensical language, but it was very direct and very real and very much there to me.

this meant I've always been a theist, albeit that I wasn't exclusively a christian and usually counted myself a universalist sinse I was able to find the knolidge of god in various religions, not just in Christianity.

during my abuse as a teenager, I had no problem maintaining a belief in God. i was fairly certain that I knew where God was, and that it was the people around me who were responsable for what was going on.

Later, I had more experiences of God. not many (perhaps five or six in all), and never dramatically, but enough for me to maintain the belief that g God was there, that God cared about me, and that I knew where God was.

However, as time passed, as the relationship thing got more and more painfull and the signs of abuse started to come back, i found myself increasingly less aware of God. after my crash five years ago that made me sign up to ms and realize that my abuse needed dealing with, I started try to look for god. I did all the old meditations, I read plotinas, I watched the dawn. I even when to other countries and looked at the alps or the pyramids.

But nothing! no sense of God at all!

I therefore came to a conclusion that though God probably existed, God actually caring! about humans was another matter. God was like a river, a purely natural force. If you happened to be walking besid the river, well all well and good for you. if however you were dragged out into the desert, the river wasn't going to come after you, the river just carried on regardless. That was just how I felt, that I was off in the desert away from what I'd known before (and yes, i've read the footsteps poem, but it really didn't help).

So, now things are better. However, how do I forgive god? If I look for God, if I have an experience of the presence of God, ---- well t doesn't that prove exactly what I said, that god is a fair weather friend, a natural force only that doesn't care? That you! need to be in a good state to contact god, and suffering pulls you away from god, ---- in which case so much for "god is love"

The other day I was at a friends' wedding, and the service basically boiled down to "god likes people to get married and be together"

Well thanks God! you've done a great job with me.

I know that yes, the christian service has evolved from mariage traditions going back a thousand years, and I know that there are probably evolutionary explanations (indeed there are evolutionary explanations for everything), however if! my friends genuinely believed that God was involved in them wishing to get married (as they did), then why is my own situation with relationships such a desaster I've had to give up all desire for a relationship? where is God! in that decision?

In fact, where is God! at ?

I suppose I could look, now that i'm no longer crippled with depression now that my life actually is! going where I want it to, and maybe I might find something, but what does that prove? that God is only around for the happy people.

Sorry for the wrant, I just didn't know another way of saying this, but I did sort of feel it needed to be said.

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#414363 - 10/26/12 11:40 AM Re: How do I forgive God? [Re: dark empathy]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
I have a lot of anger towards God. My first time around (1992-2010), I never got the help I needed and asked. The 2nd time (two weekends ago-now) he's helped me with several things. He still needs to send along help. It does seem to me only certain people get all the blessings. I don't know if that's true anymore. Talk to him, lay all your shit on the line, and ask for help again.

How did you know God existed before? What 'sense' (as you said) told you he was there?
_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#414367 - 10/26/12 11:47 AM Re: How do I forgive God? [Re: dark empathy]
Magellan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1437
Loc: California
I'm going to keep my eye on this thread. You ask all the questions that are racing in my head. And I have drawn the same conclusions that you have as well. "God" doesn't interact in my life on a day to day basis, and it is OBVIOUS that "god" doesn't care that shitty things happen to good people.

I also agree that it seems as if god is reachable only when we're feeling good and connected, but almost impossible to reach when in the dumps. I've taken to practicing gratitude and prayer as a regular commitment to my recovery. I'm still in the dumps, but I sense already that retraining my brain to focus on the positives (being grateful) is the groove to strive for when in the dumps, because when I come out of the dumps, I'll be in a better place than if I had not been practicing gratitude or praying. Kind of reaching out to God even if I can't feel god's presence anywhere.

And when I say "god", I mean whatever the source of creation is, not necessarily the Christian definition of God.

D
_________________________
If I'm acting despondent, Please ask me if I'm eating sugar. I keep forgetting sugar makes me crazy.

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#414373 - 10/26/12 01:21 PM Re: How do I forgive God? [Re: dark empathy]
Country Offline


Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 642
Loc: Alabama
God can handle all of your anger. Let Him have it. He wants to bare you burdens anyway. I love talking about God to people. I feel Him. I was the worst alcoholic, gambler, sinner in the world. He changed me. He brought 6'1" 210 lb man tumbling and crying like a baby. Poof all my wrongs made right. I pray that for everyone.
_________________________
Ephesians 6:13

Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.

Ephesians 5:25

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

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#414382 - 10/26/12 03:48 PM Re: How do I forgive God? [Re: dark empathy]
nltsaved Offline


Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 856
Loc: Kc,Mo
This is a reply to the first couple of replies
Not just dark empathy's

This is a long read but it is well worth it I believe the biggest problem is that you are setting yourself above God
yes it is fine to ask questions and I'm a firm believer that God answers those questions It just so happens that it might not be the answer that you want to hear
Furthermore if God does not do something in the way that you think he ought to does not justify the belief you have towards him
God knows the beginning the Middle and the end you are going off of your senses you're not working through faith faith is the only way to reach God your lack of faith is probably the reason your relationship is not growing

There are many things that we will not know about God just because we do not understand the fullness's of his Majesty does not give us any right by any means to think that we know more than the creator of all things.

Trust me I am not saying that you do not have the right to be angry but he has provided a way to deal with the angers you have
he cannot make you take what he has so freely given to all
You have to accept what he gives the hand is always extended nine times out of 10 we are the ones that walk away from the hand that is constantly offering his free gift of salvation

Concerning God not caring about people is absurd he blesses the just And the unjust because he knows the results of doing so and how it affects not just one person but everyone around Whether you agree or disagree is really a pointless matter just a form of pride exalting itself above God I know what I am saying is not popular but there are many things that I disagree with also
but it really is pointless To try to hold a grudge against the Almighty God

Here are a couple of pages from Charles Spurgeon that deal with Faith and why the relationship you are seeking with God may not be where you want it to be

WHY ARE WE SAVED BY FAITH?
WHY IS FAITH SELECTED as the channel of salvation? No doubt this inquiry is often made. "By grace are ye saved through faith," is assuredly the doctrine of Holy Scripture, and the ordinance of God; but why is it so? Why is faith selected rather than hope, or love, or patience?
It becomes us to be modest in answering such a question, for God's ways are not always to be understood; nor are we allowed presumptuously to question them. Humbly we would reply that, as far as we can tell, faith has been selected as the channel of grace, because there is a natural adaptation in faith to be used as the receiver. Suppose that I am about to give a poor man an alms: I put it into his hand why? Well, it would hardly be fitting to put it into his ear, or to lay it upon his foot; the hand seems made on purpose to receive. So, in our mental frame, faith is created on purpose to be a receiver: it is the hand of the man, and there is a fitness in receiving grace by its means.
Do let me put this very plainly. Faith which receives Christ is as simple an act as when your child receives an apple from you, because you hold it out and promise to give him the apple if he comes for it. The belief and the receiving relate only to an apple; but they make up precisely the same act as the faith which deals with eternal salvation. What the child's hand is to the apple, that your faith is to the perfect salvation of Christ. The child's hand does not make the apple, nor improve the apple, nor deserve the apple; it only takes it; and faith is chosen by God to be the receiver of salvation, because it does not pretend to create salvation, nor to help in it, but it is content humbly to receive it. "Faith is the tongue that begs pardon, the hand which receives it, and the eye which sees it; but it is not the price which buys it." Faith never makes herself her own plea, she rests all her argument upon the blood of Christ. She becomes a good servant to bring the riches of the Lord Jesus to the soul, because she acknowledges whence she drew them, and owns that grace alone entrusted her with them.

Faith, again, is doubtless selected because it gives all the glory to God. It is of faith that it might be by grace, and it is of grace that there might be no boasting; for God cannot endure pride. "The proud he knoweth afar off," and He has no wish to come nearer to them. He will not give salvation in a way which will suggest or foster pride. Paul saith, "Not of works, lest any man should boast." Now, faith excludes all boasting. The hand which receives charity does not say, "I am to be thanked for accepting the gift"; that would be absurd. When the hand conveys bread to the mouth it does not say to the body, "Thank me; for I feed you." It is a very simple thing that the hand does though a very necessary thing; and it never arrogates glory to itself for what it does. So God has selected faith to receive the unspeakable gift of His grace, because it cannot take to itself any credit, but must adore the gracious God who is the giver of all good. Faith sets the crown upon the right head, and therefore the Lord Jesus was wont to put the crown upon the head of faith, saying, "Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace."
Next, God selects faith as the channel of salvation because it is a sure method, linking man with God. When man confides in God, there is a point of union between them, and that union guarantees blessing. Faith saves us because it makes us cling to God, and so brings us into connection with Him. I have often used the following illustration, but I must repeat it, because I cannot think of a better. I am told that years ago a boat was upset above the falls of Niagara, and two men were being carried down the current, when persons on the shore managed to float a rope out to them, which rope was seized by them both. One of them held fast to it and was safely drawn to the bank; but the other, seeing a great log come floating by, unwisely let go the rope and clung to the log, for it was the bigger thing of the two, and apparently better to cling to. Alas! the log with the man on it went right over the vast abyss, because there was no union between the log and the shore. The size of the log was no benefit to him who grasped it; it needed a connection with the shore to produce safety. So when a man trusts to his works, or to sacraments, or to anything of that sort, he will not be saved, because there is no junction between him and Christ; but faith, though it may seem to be like a slender cord, is in the hands of the great God on the shore side; infinite power pulls in the connecting line, and thus draws the man from destruction. Oh the blessedness of faith, because it unites us to God!
Faith is chosen again, because it touches the springs of action. Even in common things faith of a certain sort lies at the root of all. I wonder whether I shall be wrong if I say that we never do anything except through faith of some sort. If I walk across my study it is because I believe my legs will carry me. A man eats because he believes in the necessity of food; he goes to business because he believes in the value of money; he accepts a check because he believes that the bank will honor it. Columbus discovered America because he believed that there was another continent beyond the ocean; and the Pilgrim Fathers colonized it because they believed that God would be with them on those rocky shores. Most grand deeds have been born of faith; for good or for evil, faith works wonders by the man in whom it dwells. Faith in its natural form is an all-prevailing force, which enters into all manner of human actions. Possibly he who derides faith in God is the man who in an evil form has the most of faith; indeed, he usually falls into a credulity which would be ridiculous, if it were not disgraceful. God gives salvation to faith, because by creating faith in us He thus touches the real mainspring of our emotions and actions. He has, so to speak, taken possession of the battery and now He can send the sacred current to every part of our nature. When we believe in Christ, and the heart has come into the possession of God, then we are saved from sin, and are moved toward repentance, holiness, zeal, prayer, consecration, and every other gracious thing. "What oil is to the wheels, what weights are to a clock, what wings are to a bird, what sails are to a ship, that faith is to all holy duties and services." Have faith, and all other graces will follow and continue to hold their course.
Faith, again, has the power of working by love; it influences the affections toward God, and draws the heart after the best things. He that believes in God will beyond all question love God. Faith is an act of the understanding; but it also proceeds from the heart. "With the heart man believeth unto righteousness"; and hence God gives salvation to faith because it resides next door to the affections, and is near akin to love; and love is the parent and the nurse of every holy feeling and act. Love to God is obedience, love to God is holiness. To love God and to love man is to be conformed to the image of Christ; and this is salvation.
Moreover, faith creates peace and joy; he that hath it rests, and is tranquil, is glad and joyous, and this is a preparation for heaven. God gives all heavenly gifts to faith, for this reason among others, that faith worketh in us the life and spirit which are to be eternally manifested in the upper and better world. Faith furnishes us with armor for this life, and education for the life to come. It enables a man both to live and to die without fear; it prepares both for action and for suffering; and hence the Lord selects it as a most convenient medium for conveying grace to us, and thereby securing us for glory.
Certainly faith does for us what nothing else can do; it gives us joy and peace, and causes us to enter into rest. Why do men attempt to gain salvation by other means? An old preacher says, "A silly servant who is bidden to open a door, sets his shoulder to it and pushes with all his might; but the door stirs not, and he cannot enter, use what strength he may. Another comes with a key, and easily unlocks the door, and enters right readily. Those who would be saved by works are pushing at heaven's gate without result; but faith is the key which opens the gate at once." Reader, will you not use that key? The Lord commands you to believe in His dear Son, therefore you may do so; and doing so you shall live. Is not this the promise of the gospel, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"? (Mark 16:16). What can be your objection to a way of salvation which commends itself to the mercy and the wisdom of our gracious God?
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-uYCAfpxrY
TRIGGER WARNING
Video of me telling my story
you are not alone never were
WRITTEN FORM
http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=339159#Post339159
Why i hate Religion but love Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY

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#414397 - 10/26/12 05:56 PM Re: How do I forgive God? [Re: nltsaved]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
NLT - What about those of us that don't feel (except fear and anger or just nothing at all)? I have faith, I believe so where is my joy & peace? It just seems like so much is a riddle. Well, you don't have this or that because you didn't do this or that. Thanks.
_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#414406 - 10/26/12 08:06 PM Re: How do I forgive God? [Re: dark empathy]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2024
Loc: durham, north england
Okay, this is going to be a long one. fortunately I'm on a long late night train journey (don't worry my laptop's screen is turned off and I'm using my screen reading speech synth softwareno headphones, so everything is private, and yes, this is one advantage of using a screne reader).

@phenix, i can't explain exactly what my religious experiences were. The best I could do is describe it as looking at a colour that was a whitish black, or into shining darkness. That I was aware of something that was utterly not physical but not myself, something nfinitelly connected with the world around me and something which was not me, but regarded me as belonging to it in a loving way. Something that was both a self and a consciousness that made me aware of itself, but also infinitely conected with creation, a sort of universal consciousness if you like. This is why i use the word that most people in western culture have for such a being "god" sinse I was aware that this was something I could contact and see in visible works around creation, in mountains, in water, in the face of the moon, even in contemplating the vast size of the galaxy.

For a long while I could find echoes of this experience by reading religious texts, by talking to truly holy people (not all were chriastia christian, one was a pagan, one a soofi muslim and a couple were Rabbis), or by preying or meditation.

This kept happening throughout my abuse, i never had trouble remembering where god was. indeed I always remember the statement by one surviver of the shoa (holocaust), who i heard speak at a meeting for the counsel for christians and jews. She was asked by a fellow surviver who was indeed very angry at god, where god was in the concentration camps, to which she replied she had no problem knowing where god was, the real question was "where was man"

So, that was my feeling for a good long while. as I said, I had several other religious experiences similar to the first sort, one indeed when doing a meditation exercise suggested by the philosopher plotinas, but not sinse I was 21, not sinse the bitterness, the lack of relationships and everything else got too much.

Frankly at the mariage service I got so irritated I could spit, sinse if god wants! this for people, well he she or it has a dam funny way of showing it to me.

@magellan, I totally agree, but my problem is if god only is available to the happy people what does this prove? If I love someone, what sort of scumbag would I be if I buggered off as soon as they felt down in the dumps? I don't hold God responsable for my abuse, or for my feelings of depression or fear or anything else, but why is God not there when i look? God was! there when i was 7 and had my hemmerage, indeed in some ways that was what brought me close to God, so where has god gone now? and if now that my life is going a bit better I did! find god, well what does that say about god?

@country, I'm glad you've found something that works for you, but I'm not sure that's my answer, sinse I just don't! feel god is there for all I tried all the old methods to show myself echoes of the presence of God.

Nltsafe, I'm glad you've found something that works for you, however for me, faith without experience is senseless. i might as well start believing that the marssian living in my wardrobe will make life better or that the fairies will come and take me away sinse both have as much weight as faith without the backup of experience.

I am not talking here about the tired old "it's not scientifically proven" arguement, sinse I've learnt too much about the fallibillity of human reason and the inherent flaws and inconsistancies in the scientific method to hope for ultimate truth that way, (the problem of induction of and of experimental regress are more than enough to shut up richard dorkins), but the relevance of personal experience in my life. If you have a friend you see once when you are 7 and almost never again, that friend has less relevance to your life the older you get. This is the case with my own conclusions and relationship with God.

I had that experience of God, therefore I always believed God was there. That experience told me what I thought of the nature of God, however that proves more false sinse when i am looking! for god god has buggered off.

It is not that I know more than God, it is that I am simply being a natural human and drawing a conclusion from what evidence I have in the living of my life and my relations to the world.

As to salvation, again that is a purely christian concept and one to which I do not subscribe personally. If people find the idea helpfull fair enough, but it does not hold relevance for me simply because though i know myself not to be perfect, the idea that I need to be "saved" from my wrong action is not correct, indeed in christian terms on salvation and sin I rather like the idea of orregan (sorry if I'm missspelling), that it is our own recognition of our imprfections and human failures which is the true punishment, not anything imposed externally.

I could sit and argue theology till the cows come home (i have just finished a doctorate in philosophy after all), however ultimately none of it particularly matters if god is simply not! bothered, which is indeed the case.

I suppose I could believe god is guiding events in my life in some way shape or form, but that leads to an even bigger vipers nest, sinse then I can directly blame god for the abuse, my lack of working eyeballs, my total lack of a intimate relationship, heck I could even blame god that the trolly on this train has no flavours of crisps I like sinse if God has! control over events then that must be god's fault too. This is exactly why I do not subscribe to that belief and prefer to think of God as a force or aspect apart from human action, albeit perhaps one that motivates some people, than some sort of cosmic chess player pushing peaces around a board.

So we come back to the question, where the hell is god? and more to the point, where the hell was! god when i needed God? (I could use any pronown here but I'm not going to).

I know others find comfort in faith, in believing that their lives are guided and have some purpose, but this answer just doesn't work for me, particularly because I know! at one time I had a close and direct relationship with God, indeed having that relationship was one of the things that got me through losing most of my vision and experiencing some of the most extreme pain I've ever felt when i was 7 and had my expulsive hemmerage.

this relationship was so close for a good long while I actually considdered becoming ordaned as a priest and going into the church of England, sinse I felt I wanted to help others and intorduce them to God.

However I'm now glad I didn't, sinse right now if anyone asked me about God I'd have to say something along the lines of "sorryour business is closed at the moment, if you leave a message we'll get back to you when you cheer up"

Luke.

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#414409 - 10/26/12 09:07 PM Re: How do I forgive God? [Re: dark empathy]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Dark,

I understand God uses people. However, no one came the last time to help me with my CSA and abuse issues (1996-7 till 2009). I just wonder what it takes. If God can't find anyone to help me, then my quest is pretty much hopeless with me finding it instead. It also really ticks me off that others had no problem using me to listen to them, getting me to help them then just dumping me by never being there for me. One had the audacity to claim it would hurt their recovery. Fuck me, right? LOL One of my shrinks was a Christian and just screwed me (did nothing and just judged me personally) over for money. She was a hypocrite. With "friends" like that I don't need enemies. It also tells me either God didn't try that hard or the people that could've helped me just didn't care--reinforcing my self-hate issues. This lack of help also has made me very disillusioned with the church, too. It's like, is all they do is build buildings, build sports complexes, beg for money (I paid ties till 2005/2006 when I just had too many debts and financial losses) and put on a show. It's like doing nothing outside of "worship" is the norm in the churches I attended. When I left all those churches, no one ever called to see why or anything. I went looking for help and got turned down (a big shot pastor as one example), too. It makes me wonder what the point of those even existing is if the turn down helping the hurting. Screwed up people like me I understand not doing much because we're screwed up and don't have the answers. The rest either forgot where they came from or just flat out don't give shit. Then, if you questioned their beliefs at all, they judged you. And, they wonder why way more are leaving vs. joining and their finances suck. I kinda chuckled at their calamities. Karma is a bitch, folks. You had no problem taking my money, but when it came time to help me, you basically told me to go fuck myself because you're not that important to us, but hey, can you make a donation? lol


Edited by phoenix321 (10/26/12 09:10 PM)
Edit Reason: correction
_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#414426 - 10/27/12 12:33 AM Re: How do I forgive God? [Re: dark empathy]
nltsaved Offline


Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 856
Loc: Kc,Mo
Well I guess it's kind of pointless for me to answer further because it seems to me that you want a God of pure creation of your own mind that fits your needs and specific ways and This God that you have made in your own mind will only be able to help you by your own standards And I mean let's be realistic even a god that is made up by your own mind
was any God at all why in the world would he have to answer to you? My own opinion is that you are not looking at this objectively but looking for answers That will only meet the criteria you deem fit
i think you are looking for a great conversation to stimulate your mind Because if you We're looking at this objectively you would sincerely be looking for answers instead I see someone with a puffed up mind who already has all the answers .
You must have a sense of the spiritual realm because by saying you had an encounter with God then You must believe in the spiritual realm So knowing that how is it that you say you have faith the faith that you're talking about is not the faith i am talking about
because you belief in your own God and that is not even enough to satisfy your own Interpretation of God faith is more than just believing in God without being able to physically be able to see him. You say the whole evolution thing is not true and at the same time sAy you don't believe the god of the bible or should i say christ and everything he stood for so really like i said you have created a god from your own head and can not even get him to answer the questions that you have. You sAy well what works for me and country will not work for you and you Admit that your god is not working for you either but the god i serve and millions of others have it all wrong . Could it possible thAt you have it wrong and are not willing to submit to a higher power because you hAve it all figured out O ECEPT THE PART THAT U DONT HAVE FIGURED OUT hmmm maybe the god of the bible is correct and because u are so full of pride that u will never receive the answers you seek because in order to get them you must have faith real faith that believes god is who he says he is and will do what he says he will do but instead you want god to answer to you and you want everything on your terms and i have to pull a dr phill on you " hows that working for you . Did you even finish the whole article i posted or did your puffed up mind already conclude you had all the answers? I wrote this on my phone so please forgive the run ons
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-uYCAfpxrY
TRIGGER WARNING
Video of me telling my story
you are not alone never were
WRITTEN FORM
http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=339159#Post339159
Why i hate Religion but love Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY

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#414429 - 10/27/12 01:22 AM Re: How do I forgive God? [Re: dark empathy]
ALIVE 3n1 Offline


Registered: 12/24/11
Posts: 76
Loc: Throne Room of God
Dark,

I would suggest reading a book by C.S. Lewis called Mere Christianity. This might be a good place to start with some of your questions. I know he was from Ireland but we should not hold that against him. Ha, ha

Phoenix,

I am truly sorry you have encountered the weakest ones that show up on Sunday. Yes, they also preach in many of the churches across the world; but there are those of us that are there out of a true desire for our fellow brothers and the world.

NLT,

It is nice that you are quoting from Spurgeon, he is a very good Calvinist. Brotherly rib included.



Now for the fun questions that we all get to wrestle with.
Who is God?
If God is good, how can he let bad things happen?
How do I know what good is?
How do I know what is good for me?
What is my concept of good?

Let's chase the rabbit down the hole and see where we end up.

Soli Deo Gloria,

Alive

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