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#413497 - 10/18/12 09:41 AM They just don't freakin get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2590
SO....

As a followup to the fact that I just get the run around with my local crisis center about getting men's groups going and continually being put off with a "sorry we were too busy this month but we'll make it a priority next month" excuse....

I reached out a PCAR (Pennsylvania Coalition Against Rape).

I explained about my struggles with the local center and even mentioned MalesSurvivor and Big Voice Pictures and their programs etc to raise awareness.

I'd given up on them because I contacted them weeks ago....

Today I FINALLY get an email and get this:
Quote:
I am so sorry to hear about your experience with your local rape crisis center. I would love to speak with you more about their response to you asking for help/resources. Please feel free to give me a call so that we can discuss this.

In the meantime, we’ve just updated our “Engaging Men as Allies” webpage on the larger PCAR website.


So I'm hopeful right??? Right??? Read that first paragraph! Sounds good right???

So I go and look up the page she recommended....

Every bloody link is to a program and/or resource that's focus is about "changing men" in order to decrease violence against women.

You know, because "we're" the cause of it all and only WE can stop it...

What utter BULLSHIT.

I am so freaking sick and tired of organizations pretending to help but really not giving a shit or really getting it.

I TOTALLY plan on calling this woman back, but I will have to calm WAY down before I do.

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#413499 - 10/18/12 09:48 AM Re: They just don't freakin get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: JustScott]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2024
Loc: durham, north england
Oh charming! though I must admit when I heard "men as allies" I was a little worried so I'm not entirely surprised.

statements like that that make me want to go and write about my own experiences as a male victim of female sa.

Credit to you though Scot for actually going out there and telling the truth, that is a fantastic job.

indeed, i'll confess the reason I am reluctant to write about male victimization is that I would find so many of the contrasting articals would just make me angry! so this says a lot about you and what your doing.

Yes, people are ridiculously stupid about this, there is no other way of saying it, which is again why it's such a great thing when someone actually tells the truth.


Edited by dark empathy (10/18/12 09:50 AM)

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#413500 - 10/18/12 09:58 AM Re: They just don't freakin get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: JustScott]
WVguy Offline


Registered: 09/22/12
Posts: 18
Loc: Upstate New York
DE I am in the same boat as you, the few people I have mentioned to that my abuser was a female tend to react with the same thing "Can a man really be raped by a woman?" And it pisses me off to no end. I know the feelings I have and the emotions I deal with are the same as them, but I am supposed to be a big strong man, and that can't possibly happen to me right? WRONG!!!

I think that is one of the hardest things for me to deal with, men can be victims in this and the only way to change that perception is information

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#413501 - 10/18/12 10:00 AM Re: They just don't freakin get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: JustScott]
cant_remember Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 1046
I've had similar experiences before. I totally get where you're coming from.

When I was T-shopping a few weeks back, I ventured into my local Center for Women and Families (read: Center for everyone but men) and got a similar, but not quite as dismissive, response.

I'm still trying to get a group session started up in my area through my new T, but it's gone nowhere yet. MS has been so important to me in my recovery process that I feel a real need for in-person group work that is just not offered for men in most places.

Once when I was in college in New England, I was in line at the student-center bank to cash a check and this girl behind me in line said to her friend, "I just turned in my paper on how all men are responsible for rape, but I don't think I'll get a good grade on it because my TA is a white male."

This was years before I would begin my recovery, before I even knew what was wrong with me, but it triggered me hard. I would use that line as fodder for jokes, but the truth is A) it really hurt me to hear that, and B) it is not an uncommon sentiment among women who think they are enlightened. Also C), it's total bullshit.

And yet, this is the reality we face. It's a two-edge sword. On the one hand, we as male survivors owe feminism a great deal for breaking the silence on child sex abuse that led to our ability to begin to heal in public and together. On the other hand, some of those women think anyone with a dick is a potential rapist, and those women are either dangerously solipsistic or just completely clueless.

It's good that you thought to calm down first before calling back. That shows you're aware of your feelings. Keep us posted on how it goes.
_________________________
Recovery is possible. Hang in there, brothers.

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#413507 - 10/18/12 10:53 AM Re: They just don't freakin get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: JustScott]
whome Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1736
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
HI Scott
Im reading this and laughing at the insanity of it all. I mean what a way to go? Generalize then why don't they.

I know exactly how you feel, every one sees men as the perpetrators and not as victims. Why on earth can we not work together???

I had the same just trying to get a room to hold meetings, when you mention male survivors their eyes glaze over and they start to back pedal.
Well Finally we have a place at a highly respected mental health facility, and boy it took a year to organize. I think that the guy I eventually asked might have had a similar experience because his answer was immediate and boy the ball got rolling.
So NEVER give up, it take persistence to get the thing going, now if only the men would come to the meeting hehehehe.

Heal well
Martin
_________________________
Matrix Men South Africa
Survivors Supporting Each other
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#413508 - 10/18/12 11:02 AM Re: They just don't freakin get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: JustScott]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2590
I talked to a guy on another site (one for addictions) and he said when he contacted his local crisis center looking for groups for sexual abuse victims, he was first forced to attend a group for men who abused women before he could attend one for sexual abuse victims. Despite the fact that he has never hurt anyone.

Didn't matter to them, it was a prerequisite for any male that wanted help. Yet another fine example of double standard bullshit. I'd guarantee they don't have a similar requirement for women or even a program for "women" abusers.

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#413510 - 10/18/12 11:13 AM Re: They just don't freakin get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: JustScott]
Obi Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 1396
Loc: kansas
guys.....

i agree with everything that has been posted.....

but, i have to add in my $1.50 here...

the thing that is tough for a lot of us to remember is that we are really at the beginning here with regards to male sexual abuse....

there isn't a whole lot of resources... there is a lot of myths and misunderstandings going around...

i know that it makes it difficult for us to get through our own issues, but also have to teach as well...

it's like being the student and teacher at the same time...

we are in a very TOUGH situation, but it's also a good situation...

we become the pioneers in this area... we are the explorers for our cause... we are the ones that have to get resources out there, change the myths and misunderstandings... we are in the position of having to make these changes for future males that will go through this... to make it easier for them....

it's not easy... it's a lot of hurt, pain, disappointment, etc... but our rewards will not only be our recovery of our issues we suffer through, but to also create the paths for others behind us to make it easier for them...

guys, we are the trailblazers... we are the ones that will have to create the groups, create resources and so on...

it is up to us!!! we can do it! let's be the pioneers for the others down the road that will need it!
_________________________
live another day. climb a little higher.

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#413513 - 10/18/12 12:04 PM Re: They just don't freakin get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: JustScott]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6602
Loc: FEMA Region 1
Yes we ARE trailblazers, but wouldn't it be nice if conventional thoughts already accepted or accommodated us?

I'm down to nearly zero friends from "the old-days." Jerry and I were reserve cops together at 18yo, and have been good friends ever since. I never disclosed to him until 2007. Then I learned that his nephew was regularly sexually abused by his Jerry's sister's revolving door of boyfriends, losers, druggies and transients whom she brought home constantly. She even knew about these guys having their way with him and did nothing. Today, he's totally fkd in the head.

So I've been helping Jerry to help his nephew through "CSA enlightenment" and decay of the myths. I thought he was truly "getting it." Its been YEARS of discussion and education while I've been suffering through my own stuff. I share the books and articles that I think would help him understand survivors.

A few weeks ago, Jerry and I were talking about CSA and his nephew, when out of the blue he asked, "so...do you even like women?"

Honestly, I don't think "they" will ever "get it."


Edited by Still (10/18/12 12:06 PM)
_________________________
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#413514 - 10/18/12 12:19 PM Re: They just don't freakin get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: JustScott]
Obi Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 1396
Loc: kansas
understood, still....

it's tough, VERY TOUGH, to be the trailblazers....

i'm with you in that i wish conventional thoughts were already accepted and accommodating...

but, at the moment, it isn't because we're at the beginning of changing those myths and misunderstandings...

so, for help and support we have to turn to each other here in the trenches... we have to help each other get through this while we're blazing the trail....

hate to say it, but i'm believing, that it'll be another generation that takes what we started, and really creates the revolution of turning things around...

but it all has to start somewhere and that's where we are at.. we're at the start...

i know a lot of what you have done, still, and i applaud your efforts... it can be disheartning and draining at times... but that is why we have each other here.. others that understand and can give support... lean on your brothers here, still... we're all in this together.
_________________________
live another day. climb a little higher.

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my vlog

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#413519 - 10/18/12 01:25 PM Re: They just don't freakin get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: JustScott]
GT13568 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 133
Loc: California
Wow - I am sorry you are being given such a rough time, JustScott! People in positions like that should NOT be so difficult and unhelpful.

I agree with the sentiment of this thread that it is BS to say all men are perps, and also with Obi that here we are trailblazers in men surviving and thriving after abuse, and therefore I want to say THANK GOD FOR THE INTERNET because without Male Survivor I know for sure I would still be crying in my sleep, afraid to be touched, angry at the past and suffering.

Even in a large city like Los Angeles, I have had difficulty finding any group with the quality of sharing that I find here. Nothing against the ones I have tried - they simply did not work for me. So I check in at MS almost every day to read and sometimes to share.

Part of succeeding is finding new ways. I find something beautiful and liberating about us finding our way in this struggle, without an institutional leadership that defines its group through exclusion, and through gender politics.

I like us. What I find here are individuals who are willing to listen and attempt to help, or offer advice for where to go. I never hear a "Go away."

We're nice.
_________________________
I won the moment he hurt me, because he poisoned his soul, and I did not poison mine. I did not hurt anyone. He did. He was the perp. He tried to make me into a victim, but I became a survivor. Yes.

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#413521 - 10/18/12 01:45 PM Re: They just don't freakin get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: JustScott]
WriterKeith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 953
Loc: southern California
I wish I could highlight and bold type this entire thread. It's a VERY important discussion with several points that have been made.

JustScott, your story is all too common out there, I'm afraid. When I last went into crisis, I phoned my health insurance and asked for male CSA-specific support groups. I got the runaround for a few months, and in the end, they referred me to a women's support group for rape victims. (Think it through) I was supposed to phone and ask the moderator to ask these women who had been raped if they would be willing to let a man join their group. (Again, think it through) The administrator even suggested I could help the women in their therapeutic exercises as they role-play in what they would like to say to their attackers. (Again, THINK it through, GEESH!)

I really do "get" that we are trailblazers, but for my own personal strength, it is a relief to hear a Tarzan step out of the bushes once in a while and YELL at the ignorance, lack of common sense, and sheer stupidity demonstrated by many in the field of treating male CSA and ASA issues.
_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#413523 - 10/18/12 01:59 PM Re: They just don't freakin get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: JustScott]
cant_remember Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 1046

It's just a fact of life that some in the female survivor community are full-on man-haters because of their CSA/ASA experiences.

Not particularly surprising and everyone deals with recovery in his or her own way, but when that blanket antagonism towards all men hits us in the face as male survivors, it's doubly triggering... because these women are supposed to be there to *HELP* us, not to assume we're rapists.

They are supposed to be the ones who understand, not the ones throwing around the nastiest stereotypes.

We are trailblazers, and we are doing this for those who come behind us so that they suffer just a little bit less than we did... or something.

Cant
_________________________
Recovery is possible. Hang in there, brothers.

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#413538 - 10/18/12 04:06 PM . [Re: JustScott]
Life's A Dream Offline


Registered: 08/25/11
Posts: 886
Loc: Bouvet Island
.


Edited by Life's A Dream (01/12/13 09:32 PM)

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#413608 - 10/18/12 11:52 PM Re: They just don't freakin get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: JustScott]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2024
Loc: durham, north england
I agree with the guys here. A friend of mine with an intense knolidge of feminism actually says it is second wave feminism, or it's modern variety that is the problem, not feminism generally. feminism as gender equality was the original, it's not until recently it has changed.

What narks me however is the way that social sterriotypes about women are so open ended. A woman can stay home and have kids, that's fine because she's a woman, or can go out and get a job, that's fine because she's a woman and has the right to independence.

okay, however what would happen if a man stayed at home? my friend who worked as a teaching assistant and now has a daugher of his own said he was told never! to physically touch a female child, ---- a little difficult when a five year old girl developed a real liking for my friend and would throw herself at him at any opportunity, would that have been said if he was a woman?

women must be protected, ---- and yet "strong women" are to be applauded, while men are forced to be one way only. Women

Even in clothing, which gender gets the widest choice of what to wear?

And the way teenaged girls are encouraged to do whatever they want while teenaged boys are told "no! don't express your emotions and be one way" is really! irritating.

And all this isn't helped by people like my old ethics lecturer who in a so called introduction to s/xual ethics began with the words "It is a scientifically proven fact that %70 of men would rape a woman if they could"

Myself, while I absolutely am behind all efforts like scots, and would love to write on this personally in the future, I'm just scheptical of any sort of interlectual position changing by arguement and example.

I have studdied philosophy with a specialization in ethics for the last 10 years, indeed the thesis I've just spent the last five years writing is an entirely new deffinition of disability which does not (as is current status of the debate), blame everything on society. I wrote this (even while doing recovery), because it needed saying, however even though I genuinely think the principles I put forward would! be helpfull in formulating laws, ideas and social concepts about disability I doubt they will actually do so simply because of the way interlectual changes happen.

It's not, as hagel once said that one side proposes an arguement, another side proposes a counter arguement and you end up with some grand synthesis that takes into account best of both. Rather, one side will say black, the other white, then one side say blacker, the other whiter, and the debate pretty much continues. when people come to the debate anew, they choose a position not on which has the best arguements, but which position emotionally they like best (the reason all those victims of female sa espouse angry, man hating feminism).

Once someone has chosen a side, they then play the interlectual game, argue for that side, but won't really ever be convinced.

This was shown to me quite starkly at a seminar in our department. a lecturer from our department and the visiting speaker both got into a debate about the basic moral treatement of "beings" and what exactly should be done to respond morally to "beings"

Yet, neither of them had thought to talk to my guide dog on their way in, nor did on their way out.

This is why, though i don't regret writing my thesis, I'm quitting academia, sinse changes just aren't! fueled by individual arguements, but by a person's own emotional state.

this isn't to say that the views don't deserve to be out there. Of course, if nobody ever says something, it never gets said. however, myself I'm not entirely convinced that with the entrenched sexism against males in society, the arguements from angry feminists and the prevailing view that we'll see any sort of major change this generation just as Obi said.

of course, the more a contrasting view is out there, the more the evidence is known and the more the facts are plane to see the more likely it is that people will! be emotionally inclined to change their sterriotypical views, but sinse we are working on emotions and entrenched prejudices I'm not entirely convinced such change will come any time soon.

We might be trail blasers, but it will take a lot more cutting away the undergrowth and lighting fires before too many people are willing to follow us, plus some changes in those safe assumptions of everyone living behind us, ---- after all, it took over a century for feminism, first proposed in the early days of the french revolution to have any sort of affect, and even now there are still! bad things about the female sterriotype that decent minded feminists notice, ---- just look at gender specific adverts as an example.

Actually, despite all I've said, it does! make me think that perhaps in years to come I will! write about sa and my own experiences, sinse it seems all the more important such thoughts are out there given how much of a battle we're up against.

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#413619 - 10/19/12 03:16 AM Re: They just don't freakin get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: JustScott]
crazy gecko Offline


Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 309
I am also a member on a parenting forum, and a while ago there was a discussion on sleep-overs, and I was informed that parents should be careful about letting their kid sleep over if the family is headed by a single dad, but if it was a single mom it's fine, because "females simply aren't predators." When I confronted the (female) poster about the inaccuracy of that statement, she conceded that yes, there may be isolated cases of SA by females, but compared to millions of little girls who are abuse by men every year, it is simply negligible.

OMG.

Not only is it really offensive and sexist, I shudder to think how easily female predators can get access to children cause you know - they're female. smirk

Some people will wait until we've tarred the road before they'll be willing to follow...
_________________________
I guess what I'm trying to say
Is whose life is it anyway because livin'
Living is the best revenge
You can play
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#413620 - 10/19/12 04:32 AM Re: They just don't freakin get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: JustScott]
newground Offline
Chatroom Moderator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 10/11/11
Posts: 812
Loc: michigan
it is foolishness for sure and perhaps it is because their definition of abuse is skewed boys are naturally blah blah blah but as far as the numbers go just talk to the guys here. I for one would be glad to tell them the females abuse frequently.
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Either I will find a way, or I will make one.
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#413623 - 10/19/12 07:43 AM Re: They just don't freakin get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: crazy gecko]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6602
Loc: FEMA Region 1
Originally Posted By: crazy gecko
... because "females simply aren't predators." ...


Sorry, but haven't we seen ample evidence that the Normals are hopelessly and intentionally ignorant.

Some of you may knee-jerk-object to that, but look at the gravity of her statement. Look at the damage! Look at what someone is implying in that statement!!!

Dontcha think people ought to at least SEEK a clue before opening their keyboard yap?
_________________________
I'm "that guy."

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#413625 - 10/19/12 08:10 AM Re: They just don't freakin get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: JustScott]
SamV Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5947
Loc: Talladega, Alabama, USA
Originally Posted By: JustScott
he was first forced to attend a group for men who abused women before he could attend one for sexual abuse victims. Despite the fact that he has never hurt anyone.
What would have happened if the men who abused women found out that our survivor was getting help because he was raped? The sheep had to meet with predators? Does this make sense? Would the well meaning men and women of this organization make their hurt children go through that!?!! Doubtful.

I wonder.., I remember when women began using camcorders to record issues they felt were bias and unfair. I wonder what would happen if survivors started flash recording responses to their genuine cry for help from Rape and Support groups that are obviously prejudice to females?

Hmm...

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#413659 - 10/19/12 03:02 PM Re: They just don't freakin get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: JustScott]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2024
Loc: durham, north england
On the predator issue, i remember one really frightening experience I had when I was 16, only out of secondary school where all the abuse happened.

My parents used to foster kids. At one point one of them had a break up of her mariage, a complete falling out and lost all her money, and my mum in usual fashion decided to take her and her son in and look after them until they got on their feet, (a scheme that went badly wrong but that's another story).

I actually ended up looking after this kid a fair amount, while his mum was out finding a job, simply because I was the person with the games consoles he liked to play on as well as some of my old action figures, and despite the fact that I don't really get on with kids all that much I tried my best because I know this woman and her son were on really hard times, ---- indeed she was an abuse surviver herself.

One evening I remember her son was out as were my parents. I had just got back from school when she walks into my bedroom with her top half off and asks me first whether I think it looks nice, and second whether I'd zip up the back.

This scared the hell! out of me, far too close to my abuse as it was. she asked several times, but I simply said no and physically cowered in a corner, after which ppoint in a very exhasperated aire she left.

She was in her late 20's at the time and as I said I was 17.

I have no idea whether this was perfectly innocent, indeed later she actually appologized, or whether there was something dodgy going on.

However, what I find interesting is that it was perfectly okay for her to do this, wander around undressed with me in the house on my own, yet what would've happened if a half dressed twenty something year old man walked into a 17 year old school girl's bedroom? particularly one who had endured gang rape.

As I said, I still! do not know whether this was just me being hypersensative due to my genophobia, (which was not very well hidden back then), or whether there was something in her mind, 9she later proved to be a less than reliable person), however I think sinse I had! that sort of experience, even single mothers can't be said to be beyond suspicion.

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