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#41323 - 11/07/06 01:21 PM Was this abusive? possible trigger
learning2remember Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 253
Loc: Europe
What I am about to describe I consider quite minor, but remembering it kind of gets to me now. Let me describe the act and then give my own thoughts. I would really appreciate honest feedback.

My brother was a highschooler and I was 5 years younger. He was HUGE. I have shown pictures of him to my therapist and she said he looked like a grown man. I do not know if she realizes how much it meant to me for her to say that, but it affirms for me how overpowering he was.

I, on the other hand was puny.

Anyway, he would hold me down, pinning me on the living room floor with my hands over my head or stretched out at the sides. I don't remember exactly, but I could't move.

He would straddle me on his knees and begin tickling my chest and torso with his face/nose/lips.

It really tickled, so I would be laughing and screaming so hard I couldn't breath. At the same time, I couldn't get away or move my upper body at all, so all I did with my body was thrust my hips and pelvis up and down, trying to wiggle away.

Because I was bucking under him, he called this the Bronco, and would yell out things like "Ridem, bronco.

I thought this was a game. I remember once he had a girlfriend over, and I joked he should do the Bronco to her, and he wouldn't even tell her what it was, which I didn't understand. (Course, it could be that a 16 year old boy would get pretty shy at the suggestion of pinning his girlfrnd down and massaging her chest with his face...but I didn't get that kind of thing yet.)

One thing that really bothers me now is the face he would get when he was doing this. It was kind of serious. And he sort of got out of breath, too.

When I think of how our bodies were positioned in relation to each other, and how mine was moving, I can't help wondering if that meant more than tickling to a a very mature teen boy.

The idea of me bucking under him and us calling it the bronco seems significant to me, but I cant say why.

He doesnt remember it.

Is it possible to remember something as abusive that wasnt. I mean to me, at the time it was a game. So why would I call it abuse now?

And, what's the big deal about a little tickling? I mean, why should I let that get to me?

As a game, I loved it. I asked him to do it. Now the whole thing seems wierd. To be honest, I think it was somewhat erotic for me before I knew what that was. I was 10 or so.

So why should I blame my brother for abuse when I liked what he did, I asked for it, and I laughed when he did it. We were clothed.

BUT, I dont think I would have done that to a kid. Not as a teenager. And it seems wierd to tickle somebody the way he did, face to chest. Again, something strange about his facial expression. The age difference bothers me in hindsite. And the way I was bucking there must have been repeated pelvic contact, which I didnt find important at the time.

So, abuse, or just adult interpretations of childhood fun? I dont know if I have asked this before here. At one time I would have been terrified of people saying, "Um, dont sound like abuse to me," but now I can take it.

Try to imagine the act without my current interpretation and tell me what you think.

_________________________
"This is not my shame, this is their shame." Mona Eltahawy

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#41324 - 11/07/06 05:47 PM Re: Was this abusive? possible trigger
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11047
Loc: Denver, CO
learning,

I've heard many times how something with no evil intent could only be perceived as innocent fun. A couple of questions come to my mind on how I would gage this: 1) was there an evil and self-centered intent on the part of the other party, and 2) do I feel my boundaries were violated at the time?

There can be all kinds of well-meant wrestling match-type games where someone is pinned down in an awkward position for a moment. There are also times of "wrestling" that can be an in for a would-be perpetrator. I'm gathering from what you described that things were a bit awkward for you in retrospect. Only you can really decide the caliber of those times. Maybe the above questions can help gage this for you?

FT

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#41325 - 11/07/06 06:35 PM Re: Was this abusive? possible trigger
Koveri Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/06
Posts: 80
Loc: Dallas, TX
Thanks for bringing this up; just what is abuse? I have several questions too. One is I remember taking a shower or a bath with my Mom. I remember always being embarassed because I would always have an erection at the time. I would sometimes have to shower with my father and I would become erect with him, too. Were those things abuse? or just wierd? Another thing was that I was allowed to watch my parents have sex. This first happened when I was about 9. They didn't do anything to me but let me stand beside the bed. I was speachless during the time and just ran to my room as soon as it was over.

Later on as an early teen I did have an incestuous relationship with my mother (as well as with my older sister), so were these bathing incidences precursors or unrelated? I say possibly unrelated because the erections could have been a reaction to when I was molested by a babysitter when I was 5 and 6. I would stand in the bathtub and she would fondle me until I was erect.


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#41326 - 11/07/06 07:17 PM Re: Was this abusive? possible trigger
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11047
Loc: Denver, CO
One good reference I like to use is in Dan Allender's book The Wounded Heart. I think it's page 51 where he defines various types of sexual abuse. His chart even describes actions that involve no touching whatsoever. It's a tough read, but a very good reference.

FT

Edited to correct the page number.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#41327 - 11/07/06 09:17 PM Re: Was this abusive? possible trigger
Russ2 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 77
Hi L2R,

Thanks for posting. Taken altogether, I think it would be something of a stretch to label the experiences you've discussed as childhood sexual abuse. However, your brother was certainly controlling.

Do you think there were other experiences which you do not remember? I ask this because the name you've chosen for yourself here appears to be thinly veiled.

Best regards,
Russ


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#41328 - 11/08/06 03:18 AM Re: Was this abusive? possible trigger
Likon Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/07/06
Posts: 4
My Father used to do a simialr thing to me, using his face (well chin) to tickle my belly. I never considered it sexual, and since I have never experienced anything but love from my Father - I doubt he did either.

So it's really a case of you deciding whether it was a game, or abuse. Reading what you have wrote here and in other threads, I hope it was just a game and that you can clear your mind of this.


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#41329 - 11/09/06 09:16 AM Re: Was this abusive? possible trigger
learning2remember Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 253
Loc: Europe
Thanks for these responses. I wanted honest opinions and I got them, and I think I'm a little closer to some resolution as a result.

It is confusing, though. This wrestling/tickling thing was something that did not bother me at all for years. Only when I was exploring some other memories did I reinterpret this one as well.

Once a realization of childhood abuse had entered my life, I spent a lot of energy asking what other abuse was there that I either didn't remember or didn't understand at the time. That was when I started to think of this "bronco" thing as abuse.

As my name indicates, my biggest struggle is with memory. The bronco I remember very well, always did. So, early in my recovery, these incidents were important for me. I know they happened and how they happened. If they are abuse, then I KNOW I was abused.

But if they are not abuse, then I know I was misunderstanding something innocent. Which makes me wonder if everything else is just a misunderstanding and I don't belong here at all. That is harder then I thought, but I am sure these are the questions I need help with right now.

The other memories are fragments, one with my Mom... very brief image of her fondling my legs in the kitchen. The other is of my brother forcing me to kneel in a corner and starting to pull down his pants.

Those things leave less room for interpretation, but the memories are not as vivid as the bronco one was.

I've tried to talk to brother about these things, but he doesn't remember. He just insists that he is not gay (I never said he was) and would never hurt me.

But he did hurt me when he picked on me. He could be cruel in the ways that children and bigger boys often are. His cornering with his pants coming down is something he discredited, saying he would have remembered something like that. But I think that while he never would have knowingly "abused" me, he did pick on me, bullied me. And I can only suppose this is what he thought he was doing when he cornered me. And he forgot about that with all of the other ways he had been mean. Those are just things brothers do sometimes, playing rough, etc.

So he moved on, and so did I. Being cornered with his genitals in my face was a memory tucked away for years that I actually remembered as funny. THen the Mom memory fragment struck like lightening one night and I started to question everything I had thought about the wonderful family in which I grew up. He laughed when he picked on me and things when better if I laughed, too. With my new questions, I don't think its funny anymore.

By the time I was a teen I always laughed when people were making fun of me, because that was less embarassing then letting it get to you. It wasn't funny, though.

Was the bronco funny? Thanks to your help, I think so. Sometimes it helps to remember games that were just games at an age before every touch could mean something else. Bro picked on me, maybe even abused me, but not then.

I still wonder if abuse is the right word to describe things that happened, but I am convinced that my family was a very unhealthy one sexually. Dad had a collection of porn that he on one or two occasions shared with bro. Mom and Dad didn't have sex. Bro started having sex at 16 or so. Mom and Dad got divorced and Mom just couldn't get over how masculine my body was becoming, and let me know it. She looked at me a lot when I was changing clothes or getting dressed.


I changing the subject now, moving from the bronco to other situations. Wouldn't it be nice if I could somehow undertand everthing else in a way that means there was no abuse?

_________________________
"This is not my shame, this is their shame." Mona Eltahawy

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#41330 - 11/10/06 09:50 PM Re: Was this abusive? possible trigger
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11047
Loc: Denver, CO
l2r,

how do you feel about the phrase "boundary violation?" That's what I think of with the "genitals in the face" situation.

FT

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

Top
#41331 - 11/10/06 10:34 PM Re: Was this abusive? possible trigger
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
I think that you just not maybe here if you feel this way.
If there is a significant area of your childhood that is locked away, then maybe this is what is happening to you.

The mind is ready to throw out memories and maybe foggy at the time, but memories or fragments should never be dismissed. By that, I write down fragments, and eventually they figure out.

Just like a jigsaw, it needs to be put together, but many of the pieces are missing,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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