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#411078 - 09/22/12 03:03 PM Re: All Guys Do It [Re: Magellan]
nltsaved Offline


Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 842
Loc: Kc,Mo
I stated that it will be unpopular because religion is a hot topic and that is why i said take it or leave it , if people chose to take it and run with it that is a choice if they would of left it than they had that option to . I gave a way out LEAVE it do not take it up if you do not want to but some people chose to Take it and do with what ever they wanted with it


If he would have came back and said hmmm maybe I do feel guilt because this is something that maybe is being revealed to me and I never thought about it that way. The thread could have gone a different direction but it went in a direction i could have not foreseen . honestly if i would have known how that answer would have turned out than of course I would have i guess explained a little more but every opinion does not have to be backed up because it offended someone. Everyone gets offended in one way or another and I can not magically no when someone is going to be offended in a way such as it went down.

There are plenty of things I disagree with and are offended by on here but hey it is their right to say those things even if i feel some are intended to do harm or get me riled up about a particular subject.

It all boils down to emotion if it was that deep a simple pm would due just fine but like i said by the time i checked the thread it was blown way up
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-uYCAfpxrY
TRIGGER WARNING
Video of me telling my story
you are not alone never were
WRITTEN FORM
http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=339159#Post339159
Why i hate Religion but love Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY

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#411510 - 09/27/12 08:14 AM Re: All Guys Do It [Re: Jude]
DannyT Offline
Member

Registered: 09/14/03
Posts: 402
Hi Magellan,

I've been thinking for a while about how to respond to your points:
Quote:
I want to briefly clarify something as well:

Your answer
"already no this will Not be the popular answer but I call it for what it is

SIN"....

I don't see any empathy or compassion in this answer. It is short, blunt, terse, and bears no witness. There is no sharing of personal experience. There is no thoughtful reflection shared, or compassion offered. You start your answer off with "I already know this will not be popular..."

The question was asked with humility and shame and I believe a more responsible response would have been to include acknowledgement, and empathy...

This is why I responded the way I did, and I surmise why Gary responded the way he did and why many others take grievance with how the answer was submitted in the first place.


First, let me say I respect the overall message that we should be kind to one another wholeheartedly.

However, I think there're a couple of problems with this reasoning. (I may have just uttered a trigger phrase because I've challenged an opinion, and I'm aware of that. Should I have empathetically refrained from speaking?): We're here to grow and develop through contact with each other. I don't think we serve one another by walking on tip toe around each others triggers (even if that were possible) for the following reasons: A. we'd always be second guessing ourselves and trying to please, and this is a serious problem for abuse survivors. One of our great challenges is learning to stand up for ourselves and our opinions. B. we need to learn to deal with our triggers. If the triggers aren't put out there, we don't over react to them, and we don't learn. What safer place could we have for learning to manage ourselves than here?

The bigger issue is that it is not nitsaved words that caused the reaction. The reaction comes from within the hearer. If nitsaved had reasoned things through as you suggest he would have been manipulating your triggers, essentially playing his audience. He would have potentially triggered a different, safer response that would have produced harmony rather than discord. However that would not have solved the triggering problem, as you suggest. It would simply have been a different kind of triggering. He would have triggered a happy response instead of a fraught one.

I would argue that we need to be triggered in the negative way safely in order to witness the triggering in operation, so that we can learn to diffuse it. In other words it was a good thing to have this conversation as we did. Much better than otherwise. The only sad thing would be to have anyone who was triggered think that it was nitsaved that caused the response. Our triggers are inside us. It's our healing process to become untriggered by things in general so we can move smoothly through life (again, in my opinion).

I tend to err on the side of over thinking and managing my posts. I think very carefully about how things will be received, and I work as hard as possible to make every thing safe. Much to my surprise, I've had my own share of flame responses to things I thought were totally trigger free. We really can't know each other well enough to be compassionate in the way you suggest. So I think the best approach is to be compassionate as readers of the posts and to look inward at our triggers and learn to manage them.

I hope this is helpful,

Danny

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#411513 - 09/27/12 08:52 AM Re: All Guys Do It [Re: Jude]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
To return to the original question:
Originally Posted By: Garydosh
Allright I got your attention. But lets face it, we all relieve ourselves. Its normal. Some more than others. Some are lucky enough to have regular sex partners. Some are older and the drive isn't as strong anymore. But we all do it. My question is why do I as a CSA survivor still feel guilty about it? I've weaned myself off porn for the most part. I've let go of fantasizing about my abuse and abuser. When I have sex with a woman (a rare thing)I LOVE it. But when I need to relieve myself I feel like a little kid, ashamed of what I'm doing. Any ideas what thats all about?
Gary,
The question that came to my mind is what are your thoughts during the MB? If they even flicker back to the abuse and abuser, or that type of situation (mine do at times) - then that is a possible cause for the feelings of shame. As we've seen already - there can be many other reasons - this is the one that hits me the most so this is the one I give in answer to your question. Perhaps paying mindful attention to what takes you to that place and through that place might shed light on what you're looking for.
Another possible would be the simple shame for feeling pleasure. There are MANY of us CSA survivors that felt pleasure then, and are ashamed to feel that same pleasure now.

I wish you peace and wisdom as you seek an answer for your heart.
_________________________
the story
    https://1in6.org/men/bristlecone/mark-krueger/

Kirkridge - October 2008
Alta - September 2012
Alta - September 2013

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#411522 - 09/27/12 10:52 AM Re: All Guys Do It [Re: Jude]
KMCINVA Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1629
MarkK

Well said--no one other than us seem to understand the mix message we received as a child--it was wrong but created feelings of pleasure that we could not control. I grapple with shame and guilt as I try to heal. I see more and feel more of the abuse, but it is helping me to heal. I have many glimpses of certain people in my memories but do not know how they all play in the abuse. But I now understand the fantasizing about the abuser and abuse leads me down a path I do not want to travel--it seems I have traveled it for how long I do not know. I would let the part of me that fantasized take over and I would leave--I have cloudy memories and memories of being in places I did not understand how I got there or why I was there.

The power of the abuser and the guilt and shame and sadly that part of us that felt pleasure or special impact our lives until we get control of ourselves and understand we need to break away from the powers of the abuse and live life for who we are. We deserve to enjoy life and the pleasures it offers.

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#411523 - 09/27/12 11:05 AM Re: All Guys Do It [Re: DannyT]
Magellan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1402
Loc: California
Thanks for your input and feedback, Danny.

Well thought out, and you took the time to think about what you were saying, and how I, and others, might receive it. You clearly took care in choosing your words, and were cautious about how it might impact others.

nltsaved's short and terse initial response exhibited none of those qualities. It was short, blunt, terse, and done without care or thoughtful reflection of sharing of experience (like yours did). This is why he got the response he did.

Huge difference between your two replies: One is far more effective and encourages thoughtful discussion, and the other simply doesn't.

As for 'triggers' in conversations - I stay away from intentionally or even knowingly triggering someone. If what I think I'm about to say might trigger someone, I'll provide ample warning, or try to word it in a way so as to make sure that those who might be triggered are acknowledged in the process. This, I believe, is the sign of healthy relating. I *am* my brother's keeper.

There's a slogan in my 12 step group: "THINK"
Is it True?
Is it Honest?
Is it Insightful?
Is it Necessary?
Is it Kind?

If "no" is one of the answers, then it probably is not prudent thing to say.

Thanks again for your contribution.

D



Originally Posted By: DannyT
Hi Magellan,

I've been thinking for a while about how to respond to your points:
Quote:
I want to briefly clarify something as well:

Your answer
"already no this will Not be the popular answer but I call it for what it is

SIN"....

I don't see any empathy or compassion in this answer. It is short, blunt, terse, and bears no witness. There is no sharing of personal experience. There is no thoughtful reflection shared, or compassion offered. You start your answer off with "I already know this will not be popular..."

The question was asked with humility and shame and I believe a more responsible response would have been to include acknowledgement, and empathy...

This is why I responded the way I did, and I surmise why Gary responded the way he did and why many others take grievance with how the answer was submitted in the first place.


First, let me say I respect the overall message that we should be kind to one another wholeheartedly.

However, I think there're a couple of problems with this reasoning. (I may have just uttered a trigger phrase because I've challenged an opinion, and I'm aware of that. Should I have empathetically refrained from speaking?): We're here to grow and develop through contact with each other. I don't think we serve one another by walking on tip toe around each others triggers (even if that were possible) for the following reasons: A. we'd always be second guessing ourselves and trying to please, and this is a serious problem for abuse survivors. One of our great challenges is learning to stand up for ourselves and our opinions. B. we need to learn to deal with our triggers. If the triggers aren't put out there, we don't over react to them, and we don't learn. What safer place could we have for learning to manage ourselves than here?

The bigger issue is that it is not nitsaved words that caused the reaction. The reaction comes from within the hearer. If nitsaved had reasoned things through as you suggest he would have been manipulating your triggers, essentially playing his audience. He would have potentially triggered a different, safer response that would have produced harmony rather than discord. However that would not have solved the triggering problem, as you suggest. It would simply have been a different kind of triggering. He would have triggered a happy response instead of a fraught one.

I would argue that we need to be triggered in the negative way safely in order to witness the triggering in operation, so that we can learn to diffuse it. In other words it was a good thing to have this conversation as we did. Much better than otherwise. The only sad thing would be to have anyone who was triggered think that it was nitsaved that caused the response. Our triggers are inside us. It's our healing process to become untriggered by things in general so we can move smoothly through life (again, in my opinion).

I tend to err on the side of over thinking and managing my posts. I think very carefully about how things will be received, and I work as hard as possible to make every thing safe. Much to my surprise, I've had my own share of flame responses to things I thought were totally trigger free. We really can't know each other well enough to be compassionate in the way you suggest. So I think the best approach is to be compassionate as readers of the posts and to look inward at our triggers and learn to manage them.

I hope this is helpful,

Danny
_________________________
It's a heroes journey, and you are the hero.

Loving Kindness Meditation will dramatically improve your spirits; give it a try for just 3 days: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz7cpV7ERsM

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#411529 - 09/27/12 11:45 AM Re: All Guys Do It [Re: Jude]
Hopefulone Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 117
Loc: Ontario
I won't get into the religious part of the discussion. I am not a Christian...and I'm unwilling to get into discussions regarding SIN...I mean, way unwilling!


All men do not do it.

I, for one, do not. I have a seriously hard time being a sexual being. I've been married for 23 years, and with my wife for a total of 28 years. My issues with sexuality are pretty severe. I sometimes think she's fighting a losing cause...that since my abuse I've been programmed to be a non-sexual entity. I've just never had interest in masturbation. Sometimes, I don't even like catching a glimpse of myself while I'm urinating. I'm very black and white when it comes to EVERYTHING. I have issues with sex (healthy or unhealthy) being BAD. I somehow manage to have a healthy(ish) sex life for months at a time...but then something happens and I'm just off of it for months at a time. It's hard enough facing sex at times with my partner...I have no desire to throw self-gratification into that mix.

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#411539 - 09/27/12 12:51 PM Re: All Guys Do It [Re: Jude]
Country Offline


Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 642
Loc: Alabama
I agree, hopefulone, that all men do not do it. I think the safer saying would be all men have done it. I do not do it anymore. I cant remember the last time I did. I also like Danny's response an appreciate his message very much. I do see magellans point as well. I think the fact that we all got thru the discussion , as troubling as it may have been , shows we are healing.
_________________________
Ephesians 6:13

Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.

Ephesians 5:25

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

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#411547 - 09/27/12 02:04 PM Re: All Guys Do It [Re: Jude]
Anthony39 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 345
Loc: Montreal, Canada
Somebody direct me to the passages about masturbation in the bible. I found a lot about adultery, having multiple wives, about forcing rapists to marry the girl they raped, selling daughters into slavery....... But nothing on masturbation yet.
_________________________
Look up and not down; look forward and not back; look out and not in; and lend a hand.
E. E. Hale


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM213aMKTHg

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#411548 - 09/27/12 02:08 PM Re: All Guys Do It [Re: Jude]
Country Offline


Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 642
Loc: Alabama
I don't think there is anything in the bible directly about it. I may be wrong tho.
_________________________
Ephesians 6:13

Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.

Ephesians 5:25

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

Top
#411550 - 09/27/12 02:15 PM Re: All Guys Do It [Re: Jude]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2575
Nothing specific. Most people cover it under the thread of lust etc. There are a few other things people cover it under, but no, nothing specifically on MB.

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