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#410711 - 09/20/12 03:57 AM Re: All Guys Do It [Re: Jude]
peroperic2009 Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 3600
Loc: South-East Europe
I guess and I know that some men do it in marriage or in relationship (me), we are doing it and there is no need for denial smile
Some men have reason for such actions (problems in marriage/relationships/health issues and many more...) some men (me) just like to have some comfort and part of intimacy held without sharing - it can hurt sometimes and I'm more than fragile there.
Like Martin has said it is good to talk about it no matter on differences.
It is interesting Gary for me that you've said that you are feeling ashamed like kid. For me the first association that comes to such picture is adults talking with deprecation to small kid about some terrible things (masturbation). Could it be that you have been treated like that in your childhood and you just relive same emotions while you do it?
Believe it or not there are many things like such talks that could be traumatic for child leaving some scars...
Just my 2 cents.

Pero
_________________________
My story

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#410713 - 09/20/12 05:21 AM Re: All Guys Do It [Re: Jude]
Jude Offline


Registered: 08/09/12
Posts: 1478
Loc: New England
The only thing my father ever said to me about it is that its "a waste of time"
_________________________
"But now old friends are acting strange,
they shake their heads, they say I've changed.
Something's lost but something's gained in living every day
....it's life's illusions I recall, I really don't know life at all. "
Joni Mitchell

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#410716 - 09/20/12 07:23 AM Re: All Guys Do It [Re: Jude]
Lancer Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 901
Loc: Florida
I'm sorry to see, Garydosh, than the stupid, simplistic SIN bomb partially hijacked this thread. And it made me mad as hell...nor do I think I'd be a responsible member of this community if I didn't confront that kind of irresponsible, inflammatory comment. It was a cruel, deliberately hurtful, triggering remark.

Though I'll admit it's a perfect illustration of the judgment heaped on the rest of us by those who don't have the courage to face, let alone ever share, their own doubts or shortcomings, instead casting down "wisdom" from their ivory fucking towers. With apologies to Robbie Brown, who I've come to dearly love for his courage, it also illustrates yet another reason why you'll never see me in a church.

I don't think the poster intended it, but that kind of response goes a long way (pun intended) towards answering your question on why jacking off = shame.

Well, hell yes, pantyhose definitely in a knot. Now it's gonna take me all day to untangle. Hate that.

Perhaps tags like font size="monsterous" and/or font color="red" would have been appropriate. Horns? >;-) Jus' a thot...

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#410721 - 09/20/12 09:03 AM Re: All Guys Do It [Re: Jude]
jay75 Offline


Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 145
Gary,
I am not thrilled by the religious undertone this thread has taken on either. I can say that I do attend church every sunday and my family is there at least three times a week with youth groups and such. I would pay no mind to the "SIN" remark that was cast out. I kind of feel it was a cheap shot. In my journey through life I have found that faith has caused me more harm than good while trying to reconcile with my abuse. I fear that throwing the word SIN around can negatively impact an individuals progress and possibly cause one to regress.

Now with that said, I think the negative feelings you may be having may be caused by the view many have towards sex in general. In my life I realize that I have attatched filth and SIN and a whole slew of other negative adjectives to anything of a sexual nature to include MB. So this could be why the guilt creaps in. I was taught at a young age that unpure thoughts were just as sinful as the act itself. As an adult it has taken much time for me to realize that perhaps this is just human behavior and I have nothing to feel guilty about. I think that as children grow up and listen to adults that should be wise and nurturing, we digest all they say and keep it burried deep witin our minds. As adults these things that were told to us creap back in and we apply those things to who we are as adults. Its our job to filter through the BS.

Ok so just my thoughts. sorry if it doesnt make sense, the whole sin part set me off.....

Be well
-Jay-
_________________________
"Those are not your sins" A wise man

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#410722 - 09/20/12 09:31 AM Re: All Guys Do It [Re: Jude]
Jim1961 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/10/09
Posts: 1121
Loc: Pa, but likely traveling...
Funny how everyone's opinion is not respected here (especially when it IS solicited). Sigh...

I belong to SA (sekaholics anon). SA is 12-step and sobriety does not permit MB. I have been a MB, porn, etc etc etc seks addict since I was 13. MB is my "gateway" drug.

The longest I have ever gone without MB is 3 1/2 months. That was a year ago. It was the best I had felt in a long time. Stress and relational issues (anger) with my wife lead me to fall back into my drug (and worse things).

I also believe that MB is a sin, but that God's grace forgives when I confess. And I confess often...
_________________________
Loneliness is a power that we possess to give or take away forever. -Yes, Starship Trooper

My Story

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#410723 - 09/20/12 09:31 AM Re: All Guys Do It [Re: Jude]
Country Offline


Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 642
Loc: Alabama
I think that we come here for support yes. We also, when a question is posed, may not always hear what we want to hear. I think maybe the mind set of the person when they are masterbating may be where the sin comes in. The impure thoughts that invite lust into your mind an thinking about fornication. With that out of the way.
I would do it alot when I was younger and it it seemed to taper off the older I got. Now it is very rare. I can't even remember the last time I did. When I did do it then usually I was watching porn. I think that when the Lord sanctified me that this urge was taken from me. Let's be honest here, all guys have done it and more than not are still doing it. But and I say but when the lustful thought enters your mind then it is sin. Make no mistake about it. The bible is clear on it. It may not say MB is wrong but what is in your mind when you are doing it could be the sin. May not be what you wanted to hear bro but it is what I can share. I am in no way judging you because that is wrong too. As u said we all have done it or still do it.
_________________________
Ephesians 6:13

Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.

Ephesians 5:25

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

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#410724 - 09/20/12 09:34 AM Re: All Guys Do It [Re: Jude]
Casmir213 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 845
Loc: Northeast, USA
Originally Posted By: Garydosh
My question is why do I as a CSA survivor still feel guilty about it?


Good question and I'm glad you asked it Gary. I would say that the sense of shame, which I have no shortage of and which goes along with having been sexually abused, gets mixed in/confused with the "notion" in our society that MB is a form of sexual deviance, thereby causing an increased sense of guilt when we engage in MB activities. By "sexual deviance" I guess I mean any sexual behaviors that don't measure up to the sexual ideal (whatever that is). And then, in my case, you can add to this self-doubt and low self-esteem which makes it even more likely experience guild after MB.

When looked at from a "reliving of the experience of sexual abuse" perspective, which, if you think about similarity of the feelings that come up during and after MBing and those associated with sexual abuse, it can be thought of like that, you can say that MB is a compulsion rather than a choice. And since it is a compulsion there is no choice, therefore there should be no guilt (radical point of view I guess). When looked at from this deterministic perspective, we are still driven by our past, repeating the patterns that exist within us since the abuse.

Caz



Edited by Casmir213 (09/20/12 09:57 AM)
_________________________
I see recovery as a lifelong journey rather than a final destination, a journey, though, which can have many successes along the way.

WoR Alumnus - Hope Springs, OH, October 2009

My avatar is the farmhouse at the Hope Spring, OH WoR. It's a nice place.

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#410726 - 09/20/12 10:06 AM Re: All Guys Do It [Re: Jude]
Robert1000 Offline


Registered: 06/27/12
Posts: 336
On our journey toward healing, as we learn to accept ourselves and to build a positive life with decent and functioning relationships, we have to have sensible boundaries, common-sense rules based on things that make sense.

Rule 1. Do no harm, including to yourself. We have to protect ourselves so that we're physically and emotionally safe.

Rule 2. Accept the things that do no harm, and reject the things that put us in danger or hurt us or others.

These rules are very important. We don't need moral absolutism in which sin is everywhere, and based on... what? Someone's notions of good and evil? That turns our world into an arbitrary mess. Why is masturbation wrong? It feels good. Let's admit that. It can be relaxing. It doesn't hurt anyone, at least not intrinsically. And it's safe. You can't get a disease. You're not at risk. The only reason it's a "sin" is that it feels good and it involves the sexual organ.

Of course, each of us has our own context, our own history, and masturbation may trigger us in different ways. But speaking as someone who hid his abuse for decades out of misguided shame and guilt, I reject EVERYTHING and ANYTHING that labels natural sexuality as bad, sinful, evil, shameful or whatever. When I say "natural," I mean gayness, transgender, straightness, masturbation, whatever. I don't care. As long as someone is not being hurt, as long as those involved are consenting adults I COULD NOT POSSIBLY CARE LESS. And I'll defend anyone's right to be who they are and to live free of shame and without apology to ANY BIGOTS! PERIOD!

It's like racism. I won't stand for it or let it go unanswered.

I'm probably the least stereotypical guy who would say this. I'm six four, 250 pounds white guy from the mountain west. I hunt and love my rifles. I fish, although not as often as I would like. I'm married and a father. But... I find myself tied with a strong sense of humanity to everybody else on this earth, and I would gladly fight to the death for these principles, for freedom and equality. I love my country, which was founded on the ideals of liberty and equality, and I'll be damned before I.... Oh hell, I'm getting off on a tangent.

So as for the question that started this thread, let me say that I can understand how shame can be such a welcome/hated feeling that's attached to your own expression of your sexuality. I say welcome, because I've started to feel lately that we do the things we do because we choose to... even when we feel like we don't. I should temper that by saying that some choices are made somewhat on the subconscious level. But it's important for us to own those choices. At least it's important for me. When I understood that I chose to feel guilty and ashamed for masturbating, because believe me, I did. And yet, I was in a marriage that I had completely screwed up in like 30 different ways, and my spouse didn't feel comfortable or safe having sex with me. And I wanted an orgasm. Hell, that's no so bad. It's a hell of a lot better to do that then have a damn affair!

And that's when I realized that, hey, as long as I was OK with it, as long as I understood and chose to masturbate, I didn't have to choose to be ashamed.

I think that one of the more damaging things that I took from my abuse as a kid was that I was dirty, shameful and bad... and I used everything possible in my life to reinforce that feeling. Everything. Including masturbation. And often in the depths of my depressions, I'd think, Why try? There's no use. I'm a filthy person. I just want to masturbate. I just want to fuck. I'm bad anyway. I'm doomed anyway. Why not just give into the shame and humiliation.

So this is my long and windy way of saying that the idea that masturbating is "sin" is actually incredibly destructive. It makes us lose focus on those rules I talked about above. Masturbating isn't bad, because it doesn't hurt anyone and it's safe. If, in the context of your life, masturbating does hurt someone--like your spouse who you cheated on--then you've got to bring BOTH of you along to a point where you can BOTH express your sexuality in healthy and positive ways.

But there's nothing intrinsically bad about masturbating.

Good luck, brother. Thanks for bringing up this topic. Too bad some people can't handle it. Keep healing. Keep seeking peace.

Bob

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#410735 - 09/20/12 10:54 AM Re: All Guys Do It [Re: Jude]
Magellan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1390
Loc: California
THIS IS A FORUM FOR RECOVERY FROM CHILDHOOD SEXUAL ABUSE AND MOLESTATION - NOT A FORUM FOR RELIGIOUS DEBATE OR DISCUSSION OR FOR PASSING JUDGMENT ON OTHERS BASED ON A PERSONAL RELIGIOUS BELIEF.

I AM HERE TO FIND SUPPORT, AND TO SUPPORT YOU. I EXPECT THE SAME FROM OTHERS WHEN I AM HERE.

RELIGIOUS JUDGMENTS SHOULD BE KEPT OUT OF SUCH HORRIFICALLY SENSITIVE TOPICS WHERE THERE IS TREMENDOUS SHAME ALREADY.

that is all.

D
_________________________
It's a heroes journey, and you are the hero.

Loving Kindness Meditation will dramatically improve your spirits; give it a try for just 3 days: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz7cpV7ERsM

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#410739 - 09/20/12 11:08 AM Re: All Guys Do It [Re: Jude]
Country Offline


Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 642
Loc: Alabama
If people can post about there religious disbelief then believers can post about their belief. SIMPLE.
I don't know why NLT felt led to say what he did but it did not seem like he attacked anyone. He just said in his opinion it was sin. There were opinions asked or. Then people start seeming to wanna pack up like coyotes and start saying " how dare you share your opinion". Really ? Wow. There was no personal attack that I seen from anyone about their spiritual belief.
_________________________
Ephesians 6:13

Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.

Ephesians 5:25

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

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