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#40803 - 11/26/04 01:23 AM "SUICIDE" ( Trigger )
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
I hope you've all read the "SUICIDE" post at the top of the forum?

It's there for a few reasons, firstly to provide a list of resources that are probably better equipped to handle potential suicides than we are.

The other main point is to discourage people from making easy threats, possibly for no more than attention seeking.

But I would also stress that we would NEVER ignore anyone that we felt was in danger.

Having said that, I would like to start some discussion on the different ways that suicide affects both us and those around us.

It's something that has affected me deeply over the years, a member of my family nearly died from a paracetomol OD. My best friend, also abused alongside me at school, killed himself when he was in his early forties. I've been too close for comfort myself after acting-out. And I've lost two other friends and a work colleague due to depression / suicide.

The scariest thing I've ever heard was the family member saying to me after he'd recovered from his overdose - "once I'd made my mind up the night before, a perfect calm washed over me."
That scared the shit out of me!

But that was the result of clinical depression, and is apparently something that others have noted in the same situation.

For me it was different. After the last incident of acting-out I was so overcome with guilt and shame that I actually set about trying to kill myself.

I think?

I drove home, crying, shouting at myself, and in a blind rage deciding there was no other option.
I drove my 4x4 into the garage and set about looking for a pipe to fit over the exhaust and lead into the truck. I couldn't find one, and eventually collapsed in a heap on the floor where I remained for about an hour.
Before my wife returned home I was washed and changed and sitting reading the paper.

Was that a 'serious' attempt?
No, possibly not. My garage is well equipped enough for me to have found something, I could have driven into the river on the way home, it isn't fenced off.
But at the time I did see suicide as the only alternative - didn't I?
Well, I was also in a blind panic and rage - I realise that I wasn't thinking anything like clearly.
I suspect that suicide is something that is the product of a clearer mind than the one I had that day.
"Clearer" - NOT CLEAR!
I don't think anyone with what we would call a clear mind considers suicide.

I'm beginning to think that what I did was a 'cry for help' - but I hadn't even got the courage to let anyone see it.

It's a difficult and very emotive subject, but I believe that if we remove the taboo's that surround it, and express our.....possible desire ( ? ) for suicide, then we'll form a better understanding of the creeping desire.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#40805 - 11/26/04 02:55 PM Re: "SUICIDE" ( Trigger )
dwf Offline
Moderator/BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 1223
Loc: Austin, Texas USA
Hi Dave,

I'm glad you brought this subject up for discussion.

For me, it seems that making threats of suicide in a forum like this is

(a) a cry for help (perhaps, though not a lot of direct help is available here, since we are not in physical proximity)

(b) a misguided attempt at manipulating those caring souls on this site.

Neither of these represents the true purpose of this site.

If help is needed, then ask for help. No need for 'a cry for help' like suicide here.
Help is what this place is all about. So unnecessary dramatics and threatened self-harm will get you attention and compassion from some, but also threatens the fabric of our MS community.

Which brings me to the second choice, attempts at manipulation by threatenting suicide.

I have heard the opinion many times that suicide (and threatening it) is the ultimate act of selfishness.

A way of telling everyone we know, who has cared about us--"Your efforts are inadequate, you and your love are not enough for me and so here, now take this (suicide)".

I am not sure if I completely share this view of suicide, but I do feel that it is often the act of angry people seeking to hurt others by hurting themselves.

As has been observed, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

This is not the place to deal with suicidal tendencies. Call a suicide hotline or one of the many agencies that exist to deal with such emotionally charged issues.

This is a place for healing and hope. Suicide threats take away energy needed to help the many others coming here for a bit of comfort and solace.

Each of us owes some debt to this place called MaleSurvivor. Without it, I know for sure that my own recovery from sexual abuse would have been much more difficult, if it had come about at all.

So, please, let's do a bit to help preserve the healing fabric of our community.

Our own individual recoveries and others depend upon this place.

Take the advice posted at the top of this forum. Seek professional help, talk it over in private with a friend, trusted family member or crisis line worker.

But please do not use MaleSurvivor to engage in attention-seeking, drama creating, selfish, self pitying threats of harm to yourself.

MaleSurvivor is not set up to deal with that and you will be depriving yourself and many others of the precious gift of recovery.

Does this seem harsh? Perhaps I should have phrased it more delicately, but I feel very strongly about it.

The men and women who come here have all been exploited in some way. And it disturbs me greatly to see more emotional exploitation taking place by those who will not or cannot take the steps to extricate themselves from the endless self-pity and self-centeredness of victimization.

The rush of exhiliration and flow of concern and attention that seems to come to the victim when making such threats seems to be highly addictive, in that the behavior develops into repetitive patterns.

Ultimately, the good will and compassion of the community is so abused by such acting out that a certain hardening of attitude and chilling of goodwill can occur.

You may be saying, "Well, that sure seems to be the case with you, Danny. You are very cruel and unfeeling about this subject."

In truth, I am not insensitive to the pain of others.

It's just that MaleSurvivor is not the place for threats or attempts at suicide to be answered.

There are many other places where such 'cries for help' can be handled by specialists in the field. But not here.

It does bother me and make me angry when people come here and abuse the resources and welcome given to us all.

A threat of violence, whether against oneself or others, is completely unacceptable in this forum.

And from what I understand, will not be tolerated.

Maybe, I've shared enough of my strong feelings on the matter, so I'll shut up for now.

Enjoy life and its promise today.

_________________________
"Poke salad Annie, 'gators got you granny
Everybody said it was a shame
'Cause her mama was aworkin' on the chain-gang"

-Tony Joe White

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#40806 - 11/26/04 04:22 PM Re: "SUICIDE" ( Trigger )
Rustam Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 470
Loc: UK
I think Loydy and Danny are right about this. I agree that if any of us become suicidal this is not the place to share that. Members cannot provide the support someone in that state needs. Nor is it good for us to be unable to help someone whom we have grown to care about. People need to feel safe here. I think its positive to share feelings of hopelessness and despair but not suicide plans or threats.


I had suicidal ideation from about the age of nine until about four years ago. My abuse happened in my family and for me the possibility of suicide became like the cyanide pill that some people carry going to war it was the way out, if the pain became intolerable.

My brother according to most of my family died in a freak car accident at twenty-one. Another brother and I believe it was suicide.

For me it was not a cry for help or attention seeking, I acted on it three times, first at eleven and ending at twenty-seven. I never told anyone about it at the time, wish I had been able to seek the help I needed then. Two were pretty narrow escapes; I had some liver damage but its pretty okay now. I was in a trance like state, calm, numb and peaceful. I really believed that I was doing the world a favour. I couldn’t see that I might hurt anyone by my death. I usually felt much happier for up to a year after acting out the impulses. Knowing that I was not afraid to do it ‘if necessary’ gave me a new lease of life.

The two years of therapy I did after the last attempt helped me understand why I was constantly thinking of suicide. When I had a problem my first thought was suicide, I wasn’t looking for other solutions. I felt like I didn’t need a career, house etc because I wouldn’t be around for long, even caring for my teeth seemed pointless. I took anti-depressants for a couple of years and apart from silencing the suicide voice they allowed me to see the healthier part of myself that was smothered by the depression.

My suicide ideation came from the need to escape and from the murderous rage I was holding inside me. The other part is that in my abuse I used to feel like my dad was going to kill me and I was in a crazy way trying to be in control by killing myself.

My suicide ideation is a very old habit but it is pretty much gone now, I still have the ‘cyanide pill’ but I don’t carry it around with me, its in the attic and I am content that it stays there, I don’t expect to ever need it.

I am really glad to have survived and happy to be alive. I would say to anyone who is suicidal to talk about it to someone preferably a therapist. Don’t feel ashamed of feeling suicidal that makes it worse. Do cry for help and do seek attention where you will get the right kind of help and attention. There are other solutions, we don’t need to die to kill the pain, I did not know that back then but it’s absolutely true.

Rustam


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#40807 - 11/26/04 05:31 PM Re: "SUICIDE" ( Trigger )
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
A very interesting topic, and one that I think is good to discuss here. Like the others, I think suicide can fall into broad categories.

My neighbor down the street killed himself a few months ago. Had had a brain tumor which they were going to remove, and he killed himself the day before the surgery. His wife called him on the phone and he was talking incoherently, so she rushed home and found him in the backyard, having shot himself in the head. I spoke to my therapist about it, and he said that brain tumors like that can press on portions of the brain, altering the thought processes in doing so to the point that right becomes wrong, and wrong becomes right. A person could then think it is perfectly logical to kill themself, even to the point of thinking that it would be wrong not to. In the case of my neighbor, he apparently was doing what he thought was the right thing to do, equating it to something as mundane as sweeping the floor.

My brother-in-law killed himself about 10 years ago. He was divorced from my sister-in-law at the time, and they had a then-6-year-old daughter. He wrote his daughter a letter in which he told her he always "liked" her. "Liked", not "loved". Strange. Right before he killed himself, he called his mother and went through a laundry list of things she had done to make his life miserable. He then put a .22 revolver to his head and pulled the trigger. Obviously, he felt killing himself was somehow exacting revenge upon his mother.

I have a cousin who's husband killed her with a point-blank shotgun blast to the chest years ago, and then turned the gun on himself and killed himself. I guess that could be a case of "we're all going down together".

So, there's lots of different triggers and factors that lead up to the event. Some physical, some mental, some anger, etc. But I do agree that this site is not equipped to handle the threats, since we obviously are not in proximity to do anything about it, nor can we judge the veracity of the threat, etc.

_________________________
Eddie

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#40810 - 11/27/04 01:23 AM Re: "SUICIDE" ( Trigger )
dwf Offline
Moderator/BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 1223
Loc: Austin, Texas USA
The way I understand it, there is no problem with discussing self-harm issues.

Threatening suicide is the specific taboo.

Quote:
NOTICE
Do not threaten suicide. We are not equipped to deal with crises of this nature. It puts a huge burden on others in these rooms when someone threatens self-violence and there is nothing they can do.
I'm appreciative of Dave for posting this thread as a way for us to explore thoughts and feelings about suicide in general.

It is helpful to gain some detachment and some perspective, especially about such an emotionally charged and taboo subject as suicide.

But the real issue here for me is the idea of
threatening, which implies menace or harm directed at others! and suicide which is most definitely a form of violence.

So threats of violence are not allowed here--seems pretty reasonable to me. Just because the threat is of harm to oneself does not change the fact the the threat itself is directed at the hearer/reader.

Maybe we should have another thread just about the amount of violence and threats of violence, in addition to suicide, that takes place among male survivors.

What's that all about anyway?

Regards,

_________________________
"Poke salad Annie, 'gators got you granny
Everybody said it was a shame
'Cause her mama was aworkin' on the chain-gang"

-Tony Joe White

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#40811 - 11/27/04 01:28 AM Re: "SUICIDE" ( Trigger )
lostcowboy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 797
Loc: North Texas
I understand that the normal male succeeds in suicidal, because it is a means to a end, and not a cry for help.
When I was unable to work, and was being turned down for social security. I would sometimes look at my life insurance policy and think I would be a better support to my wife dead than alive. It never went farther than that. If I had lost the court case who knows? I do know I was not planning on let anyone know that I would end my life. Also I would have to make it look like a accident so the insurance would pay of.

_________________________
"Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend." - Albert Camus
Pretty much my life as I have posted so far. Triggers!

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#40812 - 11/27/04 01:47 AM Re: "SUICIDE" ( Trigger )
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Avatar
Quote:
I didn't really want to die, I just wanted to end the pain.
Isn't this the classic 'cry for help'?

I don't know for sure, but the easy and quick answer must surely be "yes"
I just can't imagine wanting to die, but I can imagine ending the pain. Perhaps suicide happens when the balance of pain becomes too much?

So, if we can reduce the pain, and at the same time revitalise our lives then we're 'cured'
The trouble with that ( deliberately simplistic ) theory is that life just isn't that simple, but it's still a goal worth strivivng for isn't it?


Another aspect of suicide that is maybe particular to groups of people like us is the feelings and thoughts of revenge that we have before our planned demise.
Dissasociation is something very common to us, I certainly had it in my list of coping stratergies.
I would create long and complex day-dreams about how people would react after I killed myseld. I would compose suicide notes in my head that would be so damning that everyone who had ever crossed me would be locked up and left to rot for the rest of their days.
My friends and family would deliver glowing eulogies and I would be hailed as a hero and remembered for ever.

I think the reality would have been very different, in fact I know it would.
And as the day-dream went on this reality would creep in, and I would begin to imagine the grief and struggle to understand that the people left would go through. That wasn't vanity on my part, just experience from attending the funerals of suicide victims and talking to my brother.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#40814 - 11/27/04 03:11 PM Re: "SUICIDE" ( Trigger )
avatar Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 48
Loc: UK



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#40815 - 11/27/04 09:15 PM Re: "SUICIDE" ( Trigger )
Rustam Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 470
Loc: UK
I think the clichés used about suicide are taken as common sense because they are repeated so often we think they must be true. ‘The cry for help’ one in my case explains nothing. Acting out suicide impulses happens when we have stopped crying for help or hoping to get it. People may use it as a way to manipulate others in their lives but really suicidal people have given up hope of help.

The ‘attention seeking’ one is another blaming cliché. If you kill yourself you don’t get attention. It may be the case for some, but those serious about suicide are not looking for attention they have given up trying to get it. The ‘selfish act’ seems to me to be a blaming misunderstanding. It explains nothing. When someone attempts suicide even when it is not one hundred percent guaranteed to succeed they are not being selfish. They often have the distorted reality that they are doing those close to them a favour. They cannot see the harm they are doing to others and to call them selfish on top of what they are going through can hardly be helpful.

I have been close to some people who have killed themselves, the grief and guilt for those left behind is terrible but I can’t say in a couple of cases that they made the wrong decision.

What Avatar says makes sense to me and I don’t see it as selfish in the least, having suicide as an option does make life more liveable, it was a coping mechanism for me, I don’t really need it now as I said, but I don’t see it as a selfish thing.

Rustam


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#40816 - 11/27/04 11:42 PM Re: "SUICIDE" ( Trigger )
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
If we do the 'attention seeking' or 'cry for help' failed attempt, and nobody gets to know about it at that time, are we testing ourselves?

Nobody knew about my failed attempts or ( maybe ) serious thoughts of suicide when I was at my lowest, so who was I doing / thinking these things for?
It could only have been for myself, so "why?"

I already felt like shit, I was so low I could see nowhere else to go. Was the suicide thing a reinforcement of that 'shit' feeling - another level of 'shit' I hadn't explored before?

It's so very hard to know if I was serious or not, if I had found a length of hose to fit my exhaust pipe would I have gone through with it?
That's something I'll never know, and therefore it makes the appraisal of what I actually did guesswork.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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