America is one of the most religious countries, and it makes me uncomfortable. I hate wondering who's religious, will they judge me without even knowing me? What brought this whole idea up to the surface was watching the Olympic games today. There was an American girl in the gymnastics who I was watching and rooting for. She ended up winning the Olympic gold, and I was so happy for her. But then she was interviewed and she proclaimed that it was her trust in God that she received these blessings. It made me wonder if she too was among those that fight against my human rights. Another thing that's got this whole thing going on in my mind is all the publicity with Chick-fil-a, and how adamant they are that the LGBTQ community is the scum of the earth. In both cases, religion is the perpetuator of this hate. The truth is it's hard for the LGBTQ community knowing there are people in this country actively protesting against out human rights. It creates a psychological problem, for me at least, and I think a lot of times it's downplayed. The fact is there are beliefs out there that we as a community are inhuman and a disgrace to "all that is holy". From personal experience, this has a huge impact on my self-worth, whether or not I admit it. It's so prevalent that it's even a belief shared by almost an entire party in our Government, the Republicans. When a presidential candidate himself (Romney) shares these beliefs as well, it's a very astounding issue. That a possible leader of the country that I live in, hates me without even knowing me, and will proactively pursue our demise and oppression. It is a HUGE issue in this country, HUGE. It affects SO many people, and just because we're a minority does not make it any less significant. I was raised catholic, and this too makes it difficult for me to accept and love who I am. Even though I don't identify myself as catholic, it still lingers in the teachings I was forced to accept growing up. Going to catholic school was in one word hell, and really that's all I feel like saying about it, otherwise I'd ramble on and on. I am currently having many identity issues, whether or not I'm gay or bi, but also with gender identity. I wonder, how do you guys deal with this influence? It is almost omnipotent in our society, and like my mom says things have gotten better, but the truth is, it's still not enough. What are your thoughts?

Hey CF!
I used to be there, my life revolved in "religion" - I was always part of the choir or praise team, instrumentals, something. Still am - the focus has just changed.

In my opinion, 'religion' is man's way of trying to bring the glory and splendor of the Infinite down to terms they can comprehend. So they make a god in their image.

I believe we are all "fearfully and wonderfully made". That God knew us "even while we were in our mother's womb". And loved us. Loves us still. How can a perfect being hate that which He has made?

It's taken a long time (still takes work sometimes) - but I am managing to free myself from religion and immerse myself in God.

Hey dude,

Gay, Roman Catholic, Came out in Deep South. I Identify with your "downplayed psychological problem". In my life I call it internalized homophobia. What I think that means is that we were actively taught shame. (you = gay = bad).

Currently I don't have a relationship with my family of origin because they hate me for being gay. I also don't worship easily because of the gay discrimination in the church. (I tend to go to MCC or something like that).

I generally found that counseling was / is required to adequately accept my gay self / identity. I needed to not allow my mind to kick me around for "succumbing" to gay orientation. {Note: this is not because of something wrong with being gay, it is because the socialization I recieved as a child.}

We/You have a life to protect/enjoy/live...and you cannot do it without feeling at home in a-your body, b-your mind, and c-your sexual orientation. I encourage you to forgo judgement and allow inspection of your inner self until you know that which you are-male, female, gay, straight, bi, trans. It is not fair that you do not know who you are, that it takes us years to come out, nor that it is the pivotal event in your/my life. I have often wondered if I were raised in an open city where there was little discrimination, would my gay rite of passage (my coming out story) be so rife with pain, shame, bullying, self hate, religious persecution, and hazing. I doubt it would have been.

In any case, things are changing, we work on it every day, and maybe one day we will not have any work to do. That is my hope. If one more gay teen takes his own life because he can't stand to tell his mother that he is gay I would say we aren't done yet.

Thanks for reading, you did say that you wanted our thoughts...

Good Luck Man...G.

MarkK, I'm not sure I understand, you're still in choir and praise teams? But you are trying to free yourself from religion and come closer to God? I think I have an idea of what you mean, but I don't want to assume anything.

bodyguard, I think I have internalized homophobia, and it's very confusing. I by no means think being gay is wrong, but for some reason it's difficult for me to be truly proud and comfortable with myself. It's not like I feel wrong or bad for being gay, it just makes me socially awkward because I don't feel comfortable. And what's more confusing is I feel like I'm both a girl and a boy mentally, I've been reluctant to really say that to anyone because I've never heard of that being something real, like I hear of transgender but not someone who's both. Idk all of this confusion makes me awkward and uncomfortable around people, I'm always wondering what they would think of me. Especially my dad, I always wonder how he would react if he saw me dress androgynous. And of course, I was definitely taught shame, and it only made it worse that I was being abused as well, as it made me extremely shameful. I remember being in catholic school where they had a homosexuality seminar on why it was wrong and all the while I was thinking what would they think of me if they knew what was going on at home, I must be so sick. It was horrible...

I only narrowly avoided attending a Catholic school myself; I can imagine how horrible that must have been for you. But ultimately, my parents both had different religions and didn't raise me and my siblings in either of them. Yet they and my brother shared a deeper, cultural homophobia among them that went beyond any of that.

Sadly at the same time as gay marriage recently passed in New York, the democratic mayor cut funding for gay homeless youth services in half despite the demand going up. In disproportionately high numbers, GLBT youth are being thrown out of their abusive homes and are living on the streets, often being exploited sexually. Neither presidential candidate nor the federal government is interested in addressing this. What good is marriage if you're a teenage prostitute with no place to live and no future? People don't even bother to protest against the idea of the economic rights of GLBT people who have been thrown out of society, they are just ignored.

Anyway, I bring that up because that's something I've dealt with, economic consequences of cultural homophobia. The abuse definitely made it impossible for me to come out before I was 20 years old, and then healthy relationships were a long way off still. I've never felt very connected to either gender label myself. I think it's understandable, Cloudy, that you feel you are both genders at the same time, they are people in the world who will accept for however you are or want to be, even if it isn't your father or mitt romney.

It's tragic that religion and religious experience can be so tied to feelings of being judged and shamed. Especially when we so quickly fall outside the norm of what is accepted in a prevailing culture or religious organization.

I tend to think I have received the very best and the very worst that the Catholic Church has to offer. I resigned from the priesthood a little less than two years ago. I am a survivor of sexual abuse by a priest, and as I began to face the reality of my abuse at his hands, and the exploitation I suffered from a few other priests and a bishop, it became apparent it was time also to address where I stood in the church as a gay priest. The secrecy and shame that were the legacy of my abuse were perfectly mirrored in the secrecy and shame of having to hide my orientation at all times.

These days I am so angry about the inept attempts by the church to truly deal with the abuse crisis in an honest and transparent way, as well as its ever increasing homophobia and lack of openness and honesty about anything sexual, that I can't bear to take part in the life and practices of the church.

And yet I know I'm a deeply spiritual person -- and I had a number of positive influences among those who taught and guided me along the way. I'm doing a lot of sifting these days, what to keep and what to discard by way of practices and resources that are useful to me or not. I just googled the title of an article that was hugely influential in teaching me I am loved and accepted by God, no matter what, and found it's posted online. It was written at least 35 or 40 years ago by a Jesuit priest. Here's the link, if it could be helpful to you: http://onlineministries.creighton.edu/CollaborativeMinistry/courage.html .

The bottom line of what was planted in me by this article is the following line: "I am accepted by God as I am--as I am, and not as I should be." The better grounded I am in how much God loves me and how present God remains to me, the freer I feel to explore who I am and the kind of life that honors the unique personality God created me to have.

It was helpful and encouraging to see your post and the comments that followed. Thank you for your courage and honesty. I wish you well as you ask tough and honest questions of yourself and hope you will come to know and love yourself more deeply as you let the mystery of who you are be revealed bit by bit each new day.

Vadrian, you are absolutely right, issues like these are swept under the carpet, people simply don't realize what kind of difficulties our society and it's teachings have on us especially growing up. It's so much more than just marriage like you said. This is what I meant by how immense of an issue this is. Thank you so much for your condolences, I hope I can find some people in my life that will do just that, accept, love, and embrace who I am. I think that's what I need right now.

Metolius, I'm so sorry to hear what happened to you and to know it still happens today. That's another issue I have with the catholic church, is that they don't want to address this issue honestly and responsibly. I think I'm similar in a way, I too am a spiritual person, looking for what to keep and discard. For me, I believe God is personal. He reveals himself individually to everyone throughout their life. Maybe we have to search within ourselves to find God, because he's in everyone of us, as he is also in everything around us. We are all God's miracles, and for me this was so obvious when I fell in love for the first time. To see an imperfect person perfectly and see what a miracle they are. I want to thank you for your insight and wise words.

I'm always thankful for everything I hear on this site, it kinda makes me laugh. I feel like thanking everyone lol, it's just such an experience, it's so different because for once I feel like I'm not so alone anymore. And I can talk to people who have gone through a lot of the same things, and I can learn so much from the people here. I have so much respect for everyone here.

*

Good post CF...

FWIW, you've described the inner conflicts most of us have experienced. LOL...good news. You're normal! No, really!

Stonewall happened just as I was a teenager dealing with exactly these issues...among them a group of Jesus freaks who repeatedly tried to convince me I was the freak. One of 'em today is a homophobic intellectual at a major university, continuing to publish and pass judgment from his ivory tower. Well, live and let live. Whatever blows your skirt up.

And you'll see in some of my posts that my perp was deeply involved and respected staff with a church camp - go figure. Straight, married, kids...and a pedo to whom the church turned a blind eye.

I'm amazed that in my lifetime the GLBT community has progressed from being regularly harassed and beaten (legally) by NYC police to being able to marry, serve as bishops and serve in the U.S. military. Simultaneously, the religions which vilified me have become increasingly irrelevant as their dirty laundry has emerged for all to see (the reason many of us ended up here, right?).

For me, my approach has been to take care of my little part of the world. When threatened - it's happened plenty - I've been right back in the homophobe's face. They back off pretty consistently. Have a million stories about that. Others' talents are elsewhere.

Almost forgot to mention you can actually have a life, too! For example, we've had a GLBT athletic group here for a quarter century...baseball, running, yoga, aerobics, etc. And you don't have to be butch...lol...some of 'em have been the biggest screamers I've ever met. But we've had fun and fellowship, which was particularly important in that time when a lot of us were going to yet another funeral every month or more often.

So, yeah, it's still frustrating sometimes. But it's better. Wow, if I could be around to see the next 40 years. Find your talent in GLBT rights or just the community - it may be trial and error - but believe me, every little bit makes a difference for someone.

I'm truly not trying to be rehtorically cute or flippant here.

I see ALL people as being religious. Yes...I see ALL people as being religious.

I think back to HiSkool and College and Grad Skool and discussions of "politics." The definitive mantra then and now (academically) was "if you abstain from politics, you are actually being political." I agree!

Similarly, I'll proclaim: "if you abstain from religion, you are in fact 'religious.'"

All the athiests...ooops...a labeled belief or practice.....All the athiests I've aver met have a foundation and doctrine (huh! A "doctrine") with which they justify their lack-of-belief. "Lack of belief of what?" Ok...God n stuff.

Earthies, satanists, witches, and numerologists all maintain a rationale, do they not? They base their beliefs and lack of beliefs on certain truths they determine as truths.

So if I have distain for "religion," what religion exactly and based upon what.

My maintenance of being non-religious would have to have about a paragraph of justification doctrine that explains exactly what I mean and why...even if I refuse to tell anyone, or offer to anyone my rationale for hating religion, I will still have an internal paragraph or two of doctrine...thus, I have a religion.

One of the coldest and most undeniable truths of CSA is the terrible ALONENESS of the victim.

When a boy is abused sexually, the introduction of sexualized subjects and violations cause trauma that isolates him.

Boys who are coerced or forced into sex with older males often assume fault. (THEY are not at fault) They further invent assumptions to make sense of the situation. these assumptions adoped as truth by a shattered boy become as rigid as concrete and iron as that boy becomes a man. The assumption (often wrong) goes untalked about, unchallenged, and becomes FACT. Going back into one's own history and challenging these very assumptions and adopting a more healthy point of view is often one of the Goals of Healing and Therapy.

Having said that, a very very common assumption is that God is unavailable because the boy is bad or dirty or somehow unworthy. The outlook of the boy is that he is at fault and caused the abuse himself and further that religeon won't save him or benefit him because he is/was flawed.

To survive abuse is to join the fraternity of the ISOLATED children, the NEGLECTED boys who were ABANDONED and IGNORED by all those living and yes, even GOD (though the assumption may be inccorect).

For a survivor to reconnect with God the survivor must attain a new paradigm, a new attitude, a new awareness of God. This was my challenge...the God who abandoned me along with the rest of the human race wasn't going to move toward me or apologize or do anything different, so how was I to move toward him? How was I to accomplish that? ONLY through changing of myself.

I use music, I use prayer, I brook absolutely no judgment or opinions from others about all of this. (Yes it is that private, I am that afraid, and it is a VERY BIG DEAL) I allow myself to trust that God was no more at fault than I was. I slowly and surely retrace the steps to the altar that I turned my back on so long ago. I submit to a relationship with God by allowing myself to accept it.

That entire post above is dead-on to my understanding and belief of the dynamic that builds and controls the sexually abused child. It just took a guy who can articulate a complex idea into a clear picture. Well done.

When I packed my bag for issolationville (imposed and/or chosen) at age-8, I took with me: My favorite stuffed animals, hoping they would re-emerge as real friends to me. My thumb, because sucking it still served to comfort me. My forest, as it was a world built not by humans, but by God and only God, and I was safe there. And I packed God into my bag, as I somehow knew that he had not left me, did not like what was happening to me, and when it all killed me, maybe he's take me home. But I'm so glad I packed-up God as i had NO ONE else to talk to about even the tiniest detail of my heart, body, mind, fears and tears. I had no one to cry with...no one to cry to...except him.

Time went on. My choices for the survival-bag were tested.

The animals never woke-up again.

Sucking my thumb only got me humiliated and chastised by the dentist, parents, relatives, sisters, friends...It seems it was a major societal sin, a character-flaw, baby-ish, "queer," and a fully valid reason to hurl rocks at me.

My God-built forest proved to be true. That is, the forest was not a lie to the boy. It remained a kind, loving sanctuary with beauty and comfort. It will always be a sacred and genuinely magical sanctuary. If God has built a cathedral, it is the forest. I hope that I'm there when i die, and not some horrific hospital.

God proved to be so much more than what I believed when I took him along with me. To explain all he was and is and will forever be...dang....I'd have to write a book.

Robbie,

Thanks. You are erudite and well spoken, I have recieved much from you.

Geoff

Your postings made me realize that I believe in God, but not in religion. I know that may sounds strange, or at least it does to me. But my inability to trust impacts my ability to feel connected to any organized religion. It seems that I am continually disappointed by the actions of these organizations and their leadership/agents.

In a similar vein as you Robbie, I find that I feel the closest to God and have greatest sense of comfort and safety when I am on the water in my boat. It is both a therapeutic and religious experience for me.

Dan

*

The phonies in three churches that showed me the door when I was crawling face-down and reaching up for help...ain't holy and int no Christians as far as I'm concerned.

In the way-back, Jesus touched the untouchables when NO ONE else would. Lepers...very untouchable as well. I felt like such a leper. They made me feel like said leper.

Of course, I'll never let a hypocrite go unidentified as such. Could be why they no longer send Christmas cards.

I hope everyone angry or feeling reject by/with/at God can someday realize that NO man is qualified to judge us.

I occasionally will stop-by to poke at them to see if they are true yet. Its actually kind of fun to hold that mirror to their face and let them see and smell a hypocrite all up-close n such.

I have said in other places, and I will say here. There is no stronger, tougher, braver individual than he a member of the broken boy's fraternity. Broken boys who become shattered frozen victims who later become something new, something miraculous.... From the crucible of denial and pain are born a strength inconceivable by lesser men, a strength of character, a man whose mettle has been tested by rites of passage not of this world.

To say that NO man is qualified to judge us is understatement. They can't BECOME US, because no events, no training, no trial by fire can reproduce the circumstances by which we were formed.

True, the experience burned us, the process by which I became made of obsidian glass and volcanic rock was almost impossible to survive, and brought a whole new set of circumstances into my day to day battle for that which other men take for granted, sanity, self love, confidence, pride and so on. But it has made me HARD, I am empathetic, but I SEE TRUTH. My maleness is not based on congratulatory boasts from one father to another at a football game, my maleness is proven in fire, survived suicide, is unthreatened by my gay orientation and witnesses now how gays can and are CHANGING THE WORLD. My maleness can reach other suffering men in a way they can only WISH they could. I AM STRENGTH by it's very definition.

And.......you weak men who know not of this strength....you say I am not loved by GOD?

What the hell do you know about it?

God spoke to me, his resounding words, that still echo in my head more than a year later...."I AM NOT WHO THEY SAY I AM".


From one survivor to all others.....I LOVE YOU AS GOD LOVES ME.......COMPLETELY AND HONESTLY.

Geoff

Jeff,

You raise one hell of a point, why should a survivor believe God cared when he didn't intervene on their behalf.

The same concern is shared by Widows of Cancer patients, Children of men killed by war, many other horrible things. I don't pretend to know what motivates a God who is accorded as omnipotent and omniscient. I can say that listening to a Bishop preach one Easter Sunday I heard that if a wife of a man stricken with a fatal illness is praying for his life, that eventually she will stop praying for her will (his life to be spared) and begin by surrendering to God's will (pray for his salvation - Thy will be done). I don't have the answers to the same questions that have plagued Eccleisiastical Teachers, Monks, Priests, Bishops, and Seminary Schools of thought since time immemorial, but I do know that to assume (as I once did) that God doesn't exist because I was not spared from rape, prostitution and sexual abuse did not solve the answer for me.

It could be that our souls (which are said to be everlasting) do not bear the stain of our abuse, nor the pain of our abuse, nor the loss that our physical forms bear. If that is true, what long term effect would our abuse have in our afterlife? If our souls are not marked, then why would God intervene to save us when all we stand to gain is understanding in the long run? All of these questions are difficult to see, ask, and even more so to answer.

Assign not to God what he "should" have done and argue his existence thusly, assign to God the strength we grow from survival, and know that we are his special creations that prove to be an instrument for teaching.

Anyone can see the Glory of God in a sunset or a flower's bloom. Understanding the bittersweet sacrifice and victory of the crucifixion of Jesus is another matter....are we any less important in our own suffering? Is it possible that we are more so because of our humanity? Our capacity for love in spite of the pain, our capacity for forgiveness, our capacity for triumph against all possible odds; these are the things we have been given to show to the rest of humanity.

I regret sharing so much of myself and hope others are not offended, take what you like and leave the rest if that is how it must be.

BDGD

there have been times when someone will mention something they are going through - something I've gone through.

I believe sometimes we are given a path to learn it - so we can help travelers later on the same route. Not the greatest answer, I know ... but sometimes ... sometimes it helps.

I do believe in God.
I don't pretend to have all the answers.
In fact, i have a ton of questions.
One of the biggest is why didn't God save me from the abuse - or better yet - prevent it - when i prayed for intervention?

The one thing that has helped me most in keeping a balance between these contradictory beliefs and questions is reading about the sufferings of Jesus. if he was - as i believe, the son of God, then why did God allow him to go through all that he endured and die a torturous death? presumably - God loved Jesus more than he loves me - and yet... no rescue. I can't quite forgive a Father/God like that (stand back for lightning strikes!) - but my faith tells me that he forgicves me. and i can totally identify with a God like Jesus - who understands my pain - and then some!

so i am grudgingly accepting the ambiguity and inconsistencies and unanswered questions for now. because i need to believe in God and especially Jesus. it gives me hope. someday i hope to have answers too.

Lee

Because I believe "religion" resides within the people, I'm posting this picture about Christianity. The same can be said for Islam (especially this week), and every other religion. But people DO watch...and they do discern ...

*

Not all religious people are bigots. Not all christians are judgemental. But so many men here have been hurt by religion, or by abusers in religious disguise, that its easy to paint all religionists with the same brush of contempt. Prejudice works both ways, so lets try to be tolerant.

Wow Cloudy

So you do exactly what you fear of those "religious types" judge with out even knowing the person. tsk tsk tsk.
I love the topic, and for that for being a staunch "Christian".(Great desire to become a Pastor)
So lets explore the facts shall we.
Religion has caused more harm than good, it has been the direct cause of wars, hunger, bigotry, racism, class-ism, sexism, lust and greed, but mostly religion has turned many a good soul off what the real goal is.
What's the real goal? well to win souls, and how is that done? well through love and compassion.
Most religious churches today practice a form of worldly "Christianity" which is a lets make it so we don't offend anyone and so that we can fill the seats of our auditorium, and off course our coffers.

It pains me when I watch our gay pride marches and I see the "Religious ones" on the side of the road with there stupid posters "turn or burn" "god didn't make Adam and Steve" (WOW lke they are lke so cleva riiite.)

I cry for the damage done to the people that most need God and how they are turned against Him because of a bunch of ignorant conservatives.
Don't concern yourself with religion or religious doctrine, rather turn to the author of our faith, the One that went and spoke to the harlot,(Whore) the One that said "let he who is with out sin cast the first stone" the One that touched the unclean (lepers)and made them clean, the One that healed sinners (Non Jews) when it wasn't cool to do so.

It is not man that saves and loves souls, Only God can do that.

So don't stress yourself about silly little man, rather look to the author of our faith.

Heal well Bro'
Martin

Yup, Things have gotten so much better!

Today in the news.
In a strongly worded attack, Benedict XVI insisted that marriage should be founded on the "indissoluble" marriage between a man and a woman.
The Vatican regards being homosexual as a "deviation" and an "irregularity" and the act of homosexual sex as a sin. Further, a leading Roman Catholic cardinal reinforced the message, saying that homosexuality was an "insult to God" and that homosexuals and transsexuals will never go to heaven.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion...-dangerous.html

We are clearly on the dawn of the age of enlightenment. This does not sound anything like the dark ages. I am so greatful they know the mind of god.

The muslim president of iran also demonstrates this new vision in a tv interview yesterday.

" Do you believe that anyone is giving birth through homosexuality? Homosexuality ceases procreation. Who has said that if you like or believe in doing something ugly, and others do not accept your behavior, that they’re denying your freedom? Perhaps in a country they wish to legitimise stealing.”

So there you have it.

Catholics have been porking boys for centuries with impunity( one of the guys in my survivor group said as he was being raped as a six year old it was all good the priest said cuz he now could feel and experience the "rod of god"), and muslims condemning gays to death cuz in that world if you are strickly a top and have coitus with a manbutt its all good , but if you are the catcher well that is a ticket str8 to hell.

We have come only so far as we have limited the religious from their greater good. I have to agree with Dawkins that we are still evolving, so when a back woods boy says we dont come from monkeys you can clearly see he wrong as he is only a generation or two from flinging poo. In fact men like benedict and even some well known politicians such as Emmett C. Burns, the black democratic legislator and Baptist Minister who said the football player should shut up about "gay marriage" and "cease and desist from such injurious action" are still happy to let the shit fly.

This is the day and now is the time when gay men and women must stand up to these so called moral folk and not turn the other cheek. Being pious will get us no where. These leaders of RELIGION are not tollerant in ANY way, so why should we be expected to be any less so.

WORD

Well Said 1life.

As you say RELIGION. I get worked up with people that don't see the difference.
Don't forget that God loves you too.

Heal well
Martin

thanks martin

From your comment i am inferring you are not a theist but a deist such as people like thomas jefferson. You believe in God but not organized religion.

I know you mean well, your intent and support of others on here is noble. For me, when someone says "Don't forget that God loves you too." I dont know or understand what you define by God. When you say that , for me its like someone saying that there is someone you dont know or cant really know but they love you just the same. For me its like saying the Lucky Charms Leprechaun loves you. There is no way to disprove he does not exist just is there is no way to disprove HE dose not exist. But the one making such a claim or claiming to know HIS mind (HE loves you) is under the obligation to show what he means by GOD and how he can speak for HIM. If I say the leprechaun is all around you and he loves you, you would be right in thinking that i am making an unfounded claim even if many felt the same way i did. If I said you just have to have faith, cuz i know in my heart its true, well again you would likely be a little skeptical.

I get worked up with people that don't see the difference.
I too don't really see the difference in believing in a all knowing all seeing transcendent being outside the realm of physics or any way to measure determine if HE is there. HE has always been, without cause and is all powerful, infinately evolved and complex, right at the start of the universe if there ever was a start. There is no way to accept this proposition without any evidence. It truly defies logic. For me , understanding life, the effects of my CSA and acceptance of myself now takes all the logic and true understanding I can muster. I lived for years in a self deluded state that I will no longer be a part of.

I know your heart is in the right place. I would never not respect your wish to believe anything you like. You just need to know that when that "god loves you" statement is sent my way, i dont take it they way you intended. I could say nothing and just smile and nod. Or i can let you know that not all have the same take on things. Part of my recovery is no longer tacitly nodding and going along. Its about respectfully saying here is my boundary. All I ask is that you give me the same consideration.

cheers

grant

"Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence."

Leonardo Da Vinci

Grant,

I think I understand the difference. But I've experienced often - when someone believes they know something that can help someone else - we tend to say it.
If you were walking past a bicyclist who had fallen, put a small cut in his leg and was dabbing at it with a tissue, while there was a clean handkerchief in his hip pocket ... you'd at least try to tell him, yeah? I know - apples and oranges because the handkerchief is tangible and God is not. But the point I hope to make is the motive is somewhat the same. We want to help.

As for accepting all that stuff that has no proof and can't be seen, touched, smelled, felt ... that's why they call it faith. And I'm one of those people who need my faith. In ways I don't know if I could explain.

But I will say - I wish you peace.

Jeff,

I liked what you said back a while, and when you described being tied up and raped I was a little saddened. I had a very different story from yours. I always thought that if I had been forced, tied up and made to do it rather than coerced and manipulatted into it I would not feel as bad about having done it. I guess you kinda shed some light on my points of veiw. I was not any more to blame for the CSA than you were. Allowing myself to shoulder the blame and not direct the fault at my brothers and at my family and the other predators let them get away with it and without punishment. Today I battle to make my life whole. I don't worry about them, I focus on me.

Thanks
G