Newest Members
ShinTensei, jaklumen, Bennett, 0128, jeremywickers
12505 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
Drea (31), gpdno (47), serb guy (49), Thomas8221 (60), UncleClover (43)
Who's Online
3 registered (woodenshoes, focusedbody, 1 invisible), 24 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12505 Members
74 Forums
64196 Topics
447984 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Topic Options
#405613 - 08/02/12 04:29 AM Real or Fake
SamV Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5947
Loc: Talladega, Alabama, USA
It is such a struggle, isn't it?

I came to recovery to feel real, to be genuine, but what I am finding is a constant draw to examine the counterfeit, to see what is the difference. Fake is not worth my time, it only prevents me from focusing on what is real. Reality no matter how ugly or intimidating, is infinitely better than fake, no matter how tantalizing.

It has been said that bank clerks are not taught how to recognize fake currency but rather are shown how real currency is printed and presented. There is no doubt in the clerk's mind that a bill that passes across the counter is real or fake.

I would like that, every person that I come into contact with to be real, genuine, and I would be real and genuine too. We would engage in conversation, in spiritual pursuits, in what we need to be right now so that the Creator of real and genuine, God, who is by default the most genuine and real, there is no one else like him, accepts us to Him. So that I could be closer to God. I cannot continue to engage in sifting through the fake to ensure that I am real, only by examining what is real can I ensure I am real, and that fake is only in my head.

Top
#405762 - 08/03/12 08:36 PM Re: Real or Fake [Re: SamV]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2590
I know this struggle here too!

Been in church my whole life, seeing those who are supposedly real turn out to be false.

Struggling now on where one can find real so as to see and know the real thing, but I look and seems each time I think I've found it I've found only another counterfeit!

Top
#406345 - 08/10/12 12:45 AM Re: Real or Fake what? [Re: SamV]
Lenz Offline


Registered: 04/23/10
Posts: 61
Loc: San Francisco
Maybe I didn't understand your posting, and so this response may be hard to grasp, but...

When you make demands like "Pease dont be fake", are you including anyone specifically? Who are you asking that of?


Edited by Lenz (08/10/12 02:25 AM)

Top
#406364 - 08/10/12 07:39 AM Re: Real or Fake what? [Re: SamV]
SamV Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5947
Loc: Talladega, Alabama, USA
Hello Lenz,

No one is making any demands of anyone, that's the point of recovery, it helps us understand we can only change ourselves, and with that, difficultly! I think there are two trains of thought with regards to "fake". In this context, pursuits that are excessive or serve to distract a person from his clearly defined goals. The other I would humbly of Scott, although I am confident I not only understand but have witnessed.

In my case, as an idealist who has not yet acclimated to his own goals, partly through fear and anxiety, I feel pursuits like making money, hobbies and even recovery serve to hinder the real and genuine that my conscience desires to examine. How I long to linger in the Scriptures, to work out meaning in my day, to drift my thoughts into the Psalms, the joy David felt at serving his God, of Jesus and the comfort, the absolute certainty he had in his Father, the Apostles and their "coming of age", when they became more than fishermen, more than their occupation, they became the recipients of persecution, holy spirit and boldness for the work they had come to be jealous for, yes, jealous. When Jesus, Samuel and Jephthah's daughter were in the temple, being instructed, growing up and volunteering, this pulls at my aching heart. The security, the joy of knowing that nothing would distract me from spiritual pursuits, of simply existing to serve and learn about my Heavenly Father. That would be so satisfying, so clear, so real.

Alas, it cannot be. The Jews in the Scripture were a "separated nation to God". Abraham and Sarah were separated to God. In the meantime they cared for their needs, for their families, for themselves. I long for such ability as I cannot have, for the pursuit I wish cannot be in this world, filled with false pretense, Anti-Christs, greedy merchants and the overwhelming fears and doubts cast upon me through the abuse.

Genesis 3:17-19 sums up my disconsolate attitude. "... cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread..."

I have been here at a discovery junction many times in my recovery. I know that these overwhelming, crushing feelings of despair will give way to reason, alleviating the heavy weight upon me. The breakthrough will give me the understanding I need, but this is a composite issue, and I am not sure how to bring these discoveries together to bring about a healthy gain without so much trepidation.

I just don't know...
_________________________
MaleSurvivor Moderator Emeritus 2012 - 2014

Top
#406423 - 08/10/12 05:42 PM Re: Real or Fake what? [Re: SamV]
ren42 Offline


Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 54
.


Edited by ren42 (12/28/12 12:40 PM)

Top
#406510 - 08/11/12 09:26 PM Re: Real or Fake what? [Re: SamV]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2503
Loc: Denver, CO
what i am so rapidly losing
that "yearning in my heart"
_________________________
the story
    https://1in6.org/men/bristlecone/mark-krueger/

Kirkridge - October 2008
Alta - September 2012
Alta - September 2013

Top
#406545 - 08/12/12 06:56 AM Re:True and False Accusations [Re: SamV]
Lenz Offline


Registered: 04/23/10
Posts: 61
Loc: San Francisco
Sasuva,

I don't mean to press this, but the only words I can understand in your two posts concern the "doubts cast upon (me) through the abuse," and I don't know how you mean that.

But, please, allow me to go back. Are you coming to recovery to be real or are you really recovering? No, that is not my question. Are you bringing your experience, and education, and credentials to the abused, here, to be genuine?

I don't see any humility in a battery of citations, and none of it is real as I understand it, in fact. Must I remind you? These most real things come out of a book, and many people can't use these elusive terms. They are not helpful, as some of us have to deal with real abuse in a real way.

It appears to me, perhaps I am not in the pew beside you, that you are doing all this examining, sifting between the real and the fake out of some altruistic cause you have, so why are you afraid of "the overwhelming fears and doubts cast upon (you) through the abuse." ?

I can't seem to grasp your point of view. Who doubts your sincerity? And what could they doubt of your sincerity? If that’s it, I'd say try not to take it so personally. It is a miracle, as far as I can tell, that a survivor like me can come to trust anyone.

I would like to adjust the subject line again, if I may, because the "real" is not a legend that can be cited from a book (What then is the fake?). If the book is the real, then the world of merchants is the fake. But the world of merchants is not fake. Perhaps their faith is not "real" ... like your faith... (but really who is to say?), and maybe their exchanges may be fraudulent, but that falseness is very real, rather mundane and everyday, just like the pedophile in the church or in the family, or in the school every day…

But do you mean faith? No. Because you didn't mention faith (as far as I can see here). You wish that everyone that you have exchanges with could just be real, because then you'd be real.

Be real. It sounds to me that you are both the doubted, and that you are the one doubting, so I can't take your side either way. I just don't know ... what your really saying via passages of the bible, or how they make anything more real than what is already too real for me. The citations are a distraction to me. They get in the way of my understanding you.

This may seem off topic, but the events that bring me to MS may help you understand my reason for asking. If I detail them, maybe you can better clarify what you mean above.

I was assaulted by a preacher, the pastor of a Baptist church. I don't care if you believe me or don't believe me. I have no fear of the pretentious, the Anti-Christs, or the greedy merchants either. For me only the truth is real, and no amount of days spent pouring my heart in the Psalms, is going to change that – as any attempt to change or to transform what is real - is not real.

I need real support and real understanding in a real community of survivors. By saying that only HE loves me for real, or that only HIS love is real, says little for the real survivor who wants to help me. Where is he?

Behind your initial posting there is this assumption that the truth, or 'being real', is a substance the value of which can be bid upon like it is up for sale or something, like you are the merchant, doing the bidding. You buy it or you don't buy it, given how sincere it all seems, given some amount of old english poetry. But what then is rhetoric? Who are the “real” merchants if now they can bid so casually on the worthiness of the souls of others?

You see, I was shaken by your post. I feel that your post admits to own something that there is no rule for. You seem to think that your knowledge, unlike someone else's knowledge, is somehow NOT imaginary. If you cannot admit that ALL KNOWLEDGE IS IMAGINARY, how will you ever know what is or isn't a forgery? There are also real forgeries, and forged realities. How will you ever know that in which you can believe?

I have had to wrestle with my parents and brother about whether or not my abuse really took place or whether it only took place "to me" like "in my head". As I was knocked unconscious through most of what occurred. Given this, they want to think that I must have imagined it all. I have been doubted.

Because of this, I have come to decipher the real from the fake not by any gut reactions, or quick algorithms. People believe what they want to believe. So, I see the real as being organic in pattern and having the quality of surprise -- that means including things which are genuinely unbelievable.

On the other hand, the fake is prepared, rehearsed, strategic in character, and always very suitably "believable".

In part, this is where some of my veracity issues stem: In 1981 a book was released called The True and False Accusations of Child Abuse claiming that recovered memories were often some kind of ploy for attention and money. When this book was released it came the attention of my mother who recounted it and discussed it with my father, openly. I heard what they said.

I was then sent to camp in 1982. Part of the reason that I refrained from disclosing what happened in 1982 is based my recognition of this counter-thesis on memory.

One reason for my silence has been that I expect, as the grounds have been so prepared, to be disbelieved (especially, given the seriousness of what happened). I was, initially, disbelieved by my whole family. My mother has, even very recently said that I have made this my "whole narrative", and that I "let it happened" to me. This has been hard because - when everyone says you're wrong, you think you are wrong - you feel you must be.

The other reason for my reticence is because of how the abuse unfolded. I was given alcohol about 8:30pm, and I fell off of a swing (knocking myself unconscious, briefly) about 9pm, then I was brought to the office of the camp where I was spending the week. (This was a church camp in a forest on the night of a full moon.) Again, one man gave me alcohol. After I fell, that SAME man brought me to a second man, a preacher/pastor who did not handle my injuries. Instead, he said he would "give me something for the pain". What he gave me was a clear white fluid that he had poured into a gauze pad which he held with a plastic glove. I was put under, and was unconscious in his custody for some time. It’s hard to know how long. When he found that I had woken up in the throws of being sodomized, he withdrew, zipped his fly, buckled his belt, and buttoned his collar.

"See?" he said, red-cheeked and sweating, "you’re ok. Not even a scrape."

Pulling up my swimtrunks, I said: "Do I need to be here?"

He sat in the corner and said gently: "You can leave if you want to, or you can stay if you want to."

I left (unsure of what had happened, where I was, and where I was going). This was either ten to twelve, or 10 pm exactly, given the clock I saw in the mess hall.

I woke up late next morning, still feeling woozy from whatever sedative he'd given me. When I got up to use the bathroom, I shat blood, and staunched myself in a dizzy fever, but I had no grasp, emotionally or intellectually, of what could have happened to me. It upsets me still, even now. I simply cannot disbelieve it, so I have had to come to accept it, and come to terms with the truth of it.

I had to learn that ritual abuse, carefully exacted, is Learned Behavior like any other, and that serial perpetrators do operate like this, using great care.

I am speaking up to caution you. I have been so disappointed by what is real.


Edited by Lenz (08/12/12 06:57 AM)

Top
#406570 - 08/12/12 02:31 PM Re:True and False Accusations [Re: SamV]
SamV Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5947
Loc: Talladega, Alabama, USA
Thanks Ren for your support.
Quote:
I became a citizen and prince and heir to that promise the moment I gave my life to Him and no one and nothing can take that away. Meanwhile while we are here, and we are learning, we are also reaching, and sharing the experiences we had that would compel others to come on this journey with us.
It is like that, isn't it. Wonderful.

Mark, sometimes we need to experience the painful ebb of curiosity leaving us. Why? We may be so focused on the abuse, the present issues of relationships, or anxiety of our own potential failure in the future. We could use this part of us, curiosity and investment, to pursue such negative thoughts that we are overwhelmed and that this behavior has become tainted with use. Thank you for sharing this, dear survivor. Would it be possible to simply be curious about a good meal, in silent repose, considering the flavors and textures? Would it be possible to pause around a lunar moth, and consider it's markings, texture and antennae? The smell of fresh, hot laundry or the joyful tittering of birds. Do not begin small, continue with the details of stepping small, for in that way, we are steady in what we have gained and make progress when we can.

Lenz, this process I speak of is internal, and a bit self depreciating, tongue-in-cheek, but with solemn repose.

One of recovery's issues that is difficult is creating healthy boundaries for our recovery. In the beginning, when we were abused, the world, it's reason and feel were all one. They were a conglomeration, a mixture that did not need to be separated and itemized. At this time we were learning to endure through trial and error, to trust, to work as a team player and to find our place, to be loyal. At this tender time we were "taken". We were abused and we lost some, most or even all of the time and capability we needed to develop healthy traits to interact with ourselves and others. Creating and sustaining healthy boundaries help to define the abuse in terms that localize the issue, while separating such taint from our ability to play, work, socialize and learn.

Imagine if you will a plane crash in a busy suburban area. It is a terrible, sudden event that literally falls out of the sky. It is immediately dangerous and traumatic. The event occurs. Here is the part I wish for you to consider. No one comes. No sirens, no fire trucks, no ambulances, not even a mortuary vehicle. Imagine if you will, that there was one survivor, hurt, perhaps bleeding, disoriented and terrified. In our culture, he would expect to be rescued, to be cared for, to be given assistance and support until a loved one could come and take him back to where he would be continually cared for until he was able to care for himself.

This never happened.

Imagine the next few hours for that survivor. The next few days and weeks, months and years, waiting for someone to rescue him, to right this terrible wrong, to provide nurturing care.

It never happens.

So as he searches to find such reason and such support, time and distance separates him from the wreckage, physically, emotionally and mentally. His wounds heal. The journey includes some successes. The overwhelming terror minimizes for the moment, and other feelings like sadness, hunger, humor and anger rotate through his journey. He finally finds people. When he eventually realized that no one would be rescuing him, he tried to communicate that horror with some who had previously showed him support. They are at first aghast, amazed at the story. They ask for proof, and he tells them where and when and what, but they tell him it is too far away to verify and that it is too much for them to accept, so they choose to disbelieve. For to believe would necessitate action, and some are not inclined no matter what or to whom this criminal damage was perpetrated against.

This too, never happens.

Finally, when no one comes to his aid, neither at the site of the abuse nor through his disclosure, and with his wounds healed, he may even begin to doubt himself. As events remain unresolved, the conglomeration of the world now serves to mask the abuse, but in covering over the abuse, this mixture of all conscience things gets tainted by the abuse. Thus we feel abuse and it's trappings in all that surrounds us.

This.., this terrific event in our lives needs to have it's own environment. There is almost nothing in our lives that need the hyper vigilance and defensive posture that we use to survive the abuse. The recovery of such is about clearing the rest of our lives away from the abuse, and the struggle to clean the abuse from overwhelming us. These are necessary boundaries, containing the abuse to an event that we can understand, process and digest as we would have needed from a rescuer in the past.

Lenz, I am proud that you are continuing to rescue and care for your hurt survivor. I am encouraged that you persevere in the face of willful non support of those who were charged with your well being. Thank you for sharing here, and for demanding clarity in recovery. I congratulate you and wish you much success on your journey.

Sam
_________________________
MaleSurvivor Moderator Emeritus 2012 - 2014

Top
#406749 - 08/14/12 02:05 AM Re:True and False Accusations [Re: SamV]
Lenz Offline


Registered: 04/23/10
Posts: 61
Loc: San Francisco
Sasuva,

I didn't intend to offend you. I must seem pretty defensive. I'm sorry if that is the case.

Trying to get a grip of this,
Lenz


Edited by Lenz (08/14/12 02:07 AM)

Top
#406836 - 08/14/12 08:39 PM Re:True and False Accusations [Re: SamV]
SamV Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5947
Loc: Talladega, Alabama, USA
Oh no Lenz, not at all. You have a recovery path, and I certainly respect where you are in it. You deserve all the patience and care that MS and I and everyone else here can muster to aid you in recovery.

Yep, you seem defensive, but that is what survivors do, recovery asks at times that we lift one finger off the board we are floating on in a violent sea, fellow survivor. I understand that must seem like crazy talk, keep recovering and it will make sense.

Get your grip, ask the tough questions, even the tougher ones, until you are satisfied, I did.

Sam


_________________________
MaleSurvivor Moderator Emeritus 2012 - 2014

Top


Moderator:  ModTeam 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.