Well, I do know some relaxation and breathing exercizes anyway from singing and from other things I have done, so that's not a problem.

That certainly sounds like progress there Rocco, especially staying focused around other people's comments. It's an interesting area, sinse I've noticed the way I deal with it has changed utterly over time.

Right after my abuse stopped when i was a lot younger, 16-21, I had absolutely no way of hiding my reactions at all. I'd stutter, become breathless and uncomfortable, still worse I'd blush. What was confusing is that people took this discomfort for miss placed prudery or late adolescent innocence, something on average both genders found somewhat endearing or at least appealing, sinse I was always someone's little brother. This sort of went on until the bitterness over the relationship issue got too bad, and my emotional abilities with people far out stripped the point that I could be considdered anyone's little brother.

These days, I've learnt to deflect the conversation, to alter the topic of things, or if worst to zone out. Sometimes I just say "I'm not comfortable with that" which is a great way of killing such discussion dead.

Still worse, if someone tells a joke that involves it, I've developed a cold, dead pan reaction that makes them look a fool and feel embarrassed.

I do now wonder if I should just stop all of this and go back to what I used to do before! I developed my social abilities, just honestly let people notice my reactions, sinse then I don't have to worry about appearence at all.

You've got some good techniques for dealing with your phobia Luke. I might want to try them sometimes, as I usually am like a deer in the headlights when the topic comes up. But like you said, perhaps it's best to stay with the original emotional reactions, although I see nothing wrong with wanting to alleviate conversational discomfort now and again. My sister is developmentally disabled, and whenever anyone uses the word "retarded" in conversation I become very uncomfortable. It would be good in this situation for me to say that word makes me uncomfortable, but I've never really done that because people use that word in a very derogatory way all the time, so it seems that I'm fighting a losing battle to even begin to think about doing that. Like you, I've changed the subject or reacted coldly to people after they've use that word. It seems that these techniques are aimed at "getting back" at those that hurt us with the words they use or the topics they discuss. Nothing wrong with a little tit for tat as they say, right?

I agree that your social skills must be well developed. It sounds like they surpass mine by a mile. I think that will help you in what you want to do with regard to using exposure techniques.

Two more things Luke. I do think things can get frustrating when they don't go the way we think they should go. I'm referring to your reactions again, and how it will take time and effort to reduce them. It can be discouraging to go at a gradual pace, but it's important not to overwhelm yourself and have a bad reaction that really discourages you. You mentioned that you have a tendency to do this. Take your time. Give it time. Believe in the process, and that things will eventually get to where you want them to be. Part of the problem is not the rate of progress, but how we think about progress and recovery. If we think in "all or nothing" terms and then see that, although I've made some progress, the general problem is still there in nearly full force, then we discourage ourselves. The problem, in this case, is the way we think. The solution, in this case, is to change our thinking from "all or nothing" thinking to "both and" thinking. This is coming from a guy whose main style of thinking is "all or nothing", so I have a good idea of how destructive it can be.

The other thing is a question. But before I ask the question, I'd like to explain something. In America, and maybe in England, a lot of "social value and status" is placed upon ones ability and track record regarding sex and romantic relationships. This is part of the problem for you and I. That is, if we attach too much of our value to these skills, and we don't have these skills, then we devalue ourselves significantly. Whereas, if we place our sense of self-worth on other things (other accomplishments in life, of which you've already accumulated and I've got some myself) other than sex and romantic relationships our "inexperience" wouldn't mean so much to us. And we probably wouldn't have the phobic reactions that we have when these subjects come up. So, the question I have is how much self-worth do you and I attach to our inexperience with sex and relationships? And can we make an effort to evaluate ourselves bases on other accomplishments in our lives? I believe this would help matters significantly. With this said, I still think that we should continue with our exposure techniques in addition to altering our ways of thinking about the problem.

Rocco

Hi Rocco.

Interesting questions. Firstly, my sister is actually cognitively disabled as well, so i do understand this feeling, indeed this is why the second chapter of my thesis specifically addresses the moral and social status of people with cognitive imparements, sinse it's a subject which nobody ever seems to write on. Though people do undoubtedly have some rather strange views and prejudices on the subject, In British english the term "retard" as a purely derogatory one just doesn't appear, though I have heard it used in the states, and I can understand your reaction.

In disability terms, one technique I've tended to employ these days, when someone makes an unthinking statement about any sort of disability, is to ask a person "why" they think that.

This most often comes up in the general discussion of visual imparements I have with any new person I meet. They will assume I can't climb up stairs, or assume I can't write, or something else. Then there is always the "I don't want to offend you but" moment, followed by either "how much can you see" or Have you always been blind"

These days, I've tended to actually turn around and ask people "why" they think for instance that lacking working vision stops you from climbing stairs, ---- I often make a joke of it "it's the eyes that don't work, ---- nothing wrong with my legs"

Likewise, the "i don't want to offend you" I have tended these days to point out to people that if such questions offended me, I'd spend pretty much my entire life being offended.

Equally however, there is separating out what is actually a prejudicial atitude to groups of people with a disability, and what just a current turn of phrase. For instance, the use of the word "blind" to refer to narrow or oblivious thinking or doing something with no direction, or expressions like "I see" I simply view (ha ha), as parts of our historically evolved language, and are no way indicative of actual negative atitudes towards visually impared people, sinse they only refer to the concepts they adhere to, not to actual groups of people, rather the way terms like "barbarian", "vandal" and "scoundral" originally referd to specific nations or tribes of people, ---- or at least (in the case of Barbarian), people who didn't belong to a "civilized" nation.

i have friends for instance who, though they themselves suffer from various forms of mental illness, have no discomfort from terms such as "mad" meaning angry or illogical, or "luny" to mean stupid or eratic, sinse such words used in those context, though originally "derived" from their references to groups of people with mental illness, no longer actually refer to them.

So, if someone just for instance said something like "I asked for sugar in my coffee, you stupid Retard" I'd just mentally transform "retard" into idiot. If however someone made a specific reference to "Those dam retards in hospital" specifically referring to people with a cognitive disability, I'd probably ask the person "why" they thought such rubbish, and if, were they ever to suffer brain damage they'd appreciate such attitudes from others. Indeed, when "spastic" became an insult for people with motor imparementsI often did the same thing, though that one seems to have fallen out of fashion recently.

As regards socially changing the subject when s/x comes up in conversation or in jokes, I'm still not sure that my social techniques really help, sinse even if I can deflect the conversation or at least ignore it, that doesn't change the fact that it does! have an effect on me. For instance, last week during my tabletop rp game, we were going to speak to guinevere who,after betraying Arthur with lancelot, had gone into seclusion in a convent, (or various complicated reasons we're currently in the kingdom of Camelot).

during a break in the game, a chance remark lead to several people making jokes about nuns and chastity, which of course I was not happy with. I therefore chimed up with "Well better than a convent full of highly confused monks" Transvestite monks is a far less dangerous subject for me than the previous, and I was a lot happier with jokes on that subject.

Nobody noticed, indeed people thought I was being quite humerous, even though it had an alteria motive, yet, after the game when I was alone, I remembered some of those jokes.

I now wonder if being honest about my reactions would be better than this, just so that I can at least get the reaction with over and done there in public, and perhaps also avoid people from doing such things in the future.

when i used to react like this, with visible discomfort, I actually found people were mostly sympathetic. Confusingly enough, among girls it even prompted quite a lot of sympathy and admiration, and even among some males it did well. I was always eveyone's innocent little brother, and that was so cute!
Yet at the same time, I felt down right guilty, sinse reacting in this way made me feel sometimes that I was playing for sympathy or being manipulative, indeed someone once accused me of that, which is another reason I started trying just to freeze, go blank, or develope social camouflage,.

Probably the best thing I can do is just say quite straight forwardly that I am not comfortable with the subject and leave it at that, even though it's probably like an absolute reminder of my abuse.

In general, it just feels as if I missed the tools to deal with this. Everyone learns how to be adults about the subject eventually, but what I'm supposed to do I don't know, particularly when so much social humour is tied around it. This is again why I love my russian friend like a brother, sinse even though in a lot of ways even before she had her first relationship she was extremely grown up about the hole subject, ---- using it in humour but not to a ridiculous extent, she actually picked up there was a little more in my reaction than just some sort of left over victorian prudery.

As to self worth and such, well generally I feel slightly pittying of people who's only idea of a person's worth is based on their relationship status, or the number of people they've slept with. if I encounter such people, I don't feel the least inadequate, indeed I usually feel a slight tinge of contempt, rather the way I'd feel at someone who was obsessed over anything pointless or superficial.

I of course have the advantage ofnot particularly caring what others think of me. Sinse i'm apart from society anyway, why should I give a dam about any groups measure of isteme, whether it's money, fashion, friends in high places, relationships or whatever.

I remember for instance when I joined one light opera society, a new member boared me silly with how he'd "performed with a famous name opera singer. I simply said "right" and utterly ignored this. I could play the name dropping game myself, but I just didn't see a need to, sinse why should I care about who this person knew, I was far more concerned how he sang.

My problem with self worth and relationships is much more personal. Firstly, it actually, literally and physically hurts! that the closest I've been to someone was while having my face spat in, that i've never been kissed on the lips. This is purely and simply a form of pain, and not something that depends upon the view of others, but my own damage.

Secondly, there is the lack of what I can only call the experience of communication with another person. I can't actually say what this is, but sinse I realized it existed, I've felt the lack of it as a literal, physical ache, an absolute and vital thing that i was without. I'd describe it as a hunger, but this is rather too close to purely physical reactions which this very much isn't, sinse I know that just the unimmotional, fullfillment of physical needs wouldn't cover it, one reason why even though my mum actually offered to find me a prostitute in hopes of desposing of my genophobia (my mum is quite forward thinking), I utterly refused, sinse it's just not what I want and would ultimately result in me feeling worse.

part of me was tempted for the sake of curiosity,and the physicality of such an experience, and I'll freely confess that I'm afraid of ever coming into direct contact with such an offer of a purely physical experience, sinse part of me would be tempted, but I know very much this would not satisfy the desire I have, and would probably do more harm and leave me feeling worse.

So, the need for this experience is much more personal than social really, indeed my lack of such experience very rarely comes up socially, as I usually just gloss over it "what me? oh never met the right girl"

i did on a recent occasion actively hit people with it to make people uncomfortable, but I feel slightly guilty about that. The gm at my rp group remarked that "first kisses were special" where upon i added in a dead, cold voice "I wouldn't know" and left it at that. I do feel guilty for such unpleasantness though, though I'll admit that sort of thing comes up more often these days sinse everyone I know seems to be getting married, or planning to get married.

At least my next major outing is a week at the aims international music school, where everything is so completely focused on performance and music, with everyone singing for close to 4-6 hours a day nobody ever! has time to even considder relationships, indeed it's quite surprising how many professional singers have

Hi Luke,

I didn't realize that you had a sister with a cognitive disability. You may have mentioned it before, but I had forgotten. It's something else we have in common though. In America, they have changed the diagnosis from "Mental Retardation" to "Intellectual Disability" specifically because the word "retarded" is used in a derogatory way so much.

I like the idea of staying with your reaction in the moments when you feel like changing the subject or striking back at someone (which I can tell you've gotten real good at. BTW, the story of what you said to you gm in your rp group had me laughing). Staying with your reaction actually sounds like an exposure technique. It sounds like something I'd like to give a try myself, although it does sound scary.

I can understand what you mean when you say that there has been a lack of the experience of communication with another person. It's a horrible feeling, like being on a deserted island, while at the same time being around people. I think others here may have described it as a feeling of being "alone in a crowd", but either way it's not a good feeling. It's funny you should bring this up, as I was just writing in my journal today about having felt so isolated now for years. It's a scary feeling.

But here we are communicating with each other, and I definitely don't feel the isolation now as I'm writing this response to your post, so that's got to be a good thing.

What do you think?

Hi Luke and Rocco, I just popped in to say how I'm enjoying your conversation here.
Here at my place is one of those nights when I've been having problems with my sleep and it was nice to read this thread and learn about your thoughts.
I hope there will be many more replies, keep sharing
Pero

@pero, feel free to chime in if you wish, this isn't a closed conversation in the least and I'd certainly welcome anyone's in put on the conversation.

@rocco, terminology surrounding disability is always a complicated one, because there are some groups of disability activists who are as sensative about words as certain aggressive racial or gender (by which I mean women's), groups, and often they mainly serve to actually make any honest discussion more! difficult.

For instance, there is a currentgovernment tendency to refer to "differently abled" whatever the hell that is supposed to mean, and disallow any discussion of disability at all. For instance my brother was recently refused a job he was highly qualified for because the applications officer "believed" it was not possible for him to travel to where the job required without having a car. However, there is no way the officer could've straight out asked in the current governmental climate "how do you as a visually impared person travel" so, just fobbed him off with an excuse, something I've had happen myself on far too many occasions.

Myself, a little honest discussion and not pussy footing around the issues would help a lot with this.

Equally however, there is the other side of things, where certain very specific insults are aimed at specific groups of people, but that's an entirely different concept.

To use a slightly different example for instance, banning people from asking for a black coffee isn't going to stop racists using words like "nigger" in fact there's a pretty good arguement that it's going to have the opposite effect.

Here in the ukay, the classification is just learning disabled or mentally disabled. In my thesis I use "cognitive disability" quite specifically, though that's a term i've used for accuracy more than anything else.

As regards exposure and staying with the experience, I'm not sure, I'll have to see what I can do next time it comes up in conversation with someone. yes, I might be able to deflect matters, or still worse, lash out, but that doesn't make the triggers any less triggering, so maybe I ought to just be honest the way I used to.

As for communication, well i agree that conversing and reaching out to others can stop isolation, for all it's difficult, but that's quite a different matter to communication in the relationship sense.

i can't actually defign what this experience is, but it's something I pick up with my emotional sense whenever I've seen people who are together. perhaps by casual hand holding, perhaps by a tone in the voice, perhaps by just nothing spoken. "communication" is the closest word I can use, sinse this is very much a two way experience, but I can't really say a lot more than that, as it's not specific. part is physical, but a good amount isn't, and the hpysical element doesn't actually have to involve anythhing s/xual at all.

of course, not all couples show it all of the time, indeed some do quite infrequently, but it is a thing I've seen with all successfull relationships./

it is an extremely real thing, something I've actually seen, rather than something I've imagined or created myself, indeed it was my perception of this thing that totally changed my hole belief about relationsbhips when I was 18 or so, ---- sinse thanks to my abuse up until that point I basically thought that everyone who was together were simply friends who did something physical on occasion. Yet I began to realize there is another emotion and another state that isn't! friendship.

I can't exactly say what this looks like, indeed sinse the colour of it is extremely bright gold with hints of red and blue, it'd probably sound poetic and slightly nonsensical, but it is a very real thing, and it is this that I feel I'm missing. Not a family, certainly not children, just this experience with another person, indeed I could imagine a situation where after a month, six months, a year, myself and someone else decided to part ways after experiencing this.

I've come close with a couple of friends, especially my russian friend, but only close, sort of a 6 out of 10.

i'd imagine all this sounds really weerd and as though I've swallowed too much hollywood romance, sinse it's based entirely on the perceptions of my emotional sense, and I know that that is a difficult thing to describe, indeed I'm not exactly sure what! my emotional sense is myself, other than my ability to accurately judge a person's emotions without any visible clue. I'm in no way claiming it's any sort of esp sensing auras or anything whacky like that, ---- indeed I did have one person suggest it was unconsciously picking up theramones. it is however absolutely real, indeed my mother has very much the same experience, albeit she perceives it slightly differently just as her synaesthesia is different to mine (where mine is colour and tactile sensation, her's is colour and smell).

In one sense my synaesthesia actually makes exposure techniques difficult, sinse what i'm dealing with is a very literal sense of pain and discomfort, not an associated memory or reaction, I'm never actually thinking about my abuse, indeed it's distant from my mind most of the time, my genophobia is more like a set of instant, unpleasant sensations, thus gradual exposure is very much like just experiencing repeated pain and discomfort, like getting constant electric shocks.

@pero, Thanks for the encouragement and input. If you were feeling isolated last night like I was I hope that you felt less so by reading and responding to this thread. It's also helpful for me to read your encouraging remarks here at MS.

@Luke, 6 out of 10 ain't bad Luke. You have to admit that this is better than 0 out of 10. If we're on the same page as far as the type of communication you're talking about, I don't think I've even come close to 6 out of 10, although I'm not saying I'm not capable of this type of communication. All that we can do is work with what we have at the moment though. I'm not sure about what others have or don't have. Don't get me wrong, it would be nice to have a "natural" type of communication with a significant other, something that I can imagine happens in such relationships as you've described. Unfortunately, it's just not where I'm at at this moment. But it doesn't mean I'm not capable of other very fulfilling types of communication. I'm speaking here of intellectually stimulating conversations that I've found to be very important to me in the past, but which I've lacked recently. You seem to be someone very capable of this type of conversation, and it's been very enjoyable for me to converse with you through the computer during the times when we have done this. You know you're not alone when this happens.

Rocco

Well rocco, accepting this lack in your life and believing in a journey forward towards such communication seems like an extremely good atittude to me. Generally, I'd try to do the same, but the second I pick up a small sense of it, even from my parents, it's as though i were starving and suddenly smelling something edible, or dying of thirst and suddenly being confronted with a pool of water. Though my emotional sense is hugely usefull in many situations, this is one respect where it really causes problems.

Alone, now, in the cold light of day I can agree with you, I have in the past been very lucky in my friends. Indeed, I think part of the reason at the moment things are so difficult is that all of my closest friends have moved out of uni, while I stayed to complete my phd and are living a good long way away, and right now after being physically kicked out of my light opera group thanks to a change of director to someone who disliked having a Vi person on stage, i'm not really seeing anyone new at the moment, indeed I'm rather on my own at the moment though this something that will change utterly in a few months when my phd is finished and I start singing full time.

In terms of coming close that was with my Russian friend who is now more like a brother (and yes, I do mean brother not sister, personality wise sister just doesn't fit). Maybe it's because we've always absolutely agreed that we have never wanted to be more than friends, so I feel physically safe with her, ---- she's after all about as honest as an axe through the head, and so don't need to maintain my usual physical distance, indeed she's probably the only person who can give me a hug without that electric shock.

it's odd, so many people during my first year were convinced we were together, ---- yet neither of us wished to be, and I still! wouldn't want to be with her, ---- it would just be, ---- well wrong!

yet the communication I've seen betwene people who are together is in another order to this entirely.

At this point in time, I can say that I'm quite sanguin about existing without it. AFter all, I have a thesis to finish and lots of work singing to do, and I do after all have a capacity to make friends. However, that probably won't stop me being set off next time I get a flash of the emotions of a couple who are properly together.

As to conversation, i'm glad your finding my general ramblings sort of helpfull. i will admit having long and wandering conversations is often what I do with my friends anyway, so this is a sort of usual passtime for me, albeit something I'm not doing too much myself at the moment sinse I'm not really seeing people, which makes it good for me as well.

Thank you Luke.

Yes, I guess it is good that I've admitted to not having what I used to have in life. You don't realize what's valuable sometimes until it's gone from your life for a good while.

That is true. One of the things i've found it hard to come to terms with is that even as an intravert, I still need to interact with people occasionally.

In some ways isolation is just as destructive an addiction as drugs, cigarettes or alcohol.