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#404526 - 07/23/12 06:58 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
scottyg Offline


Registered: 06/26/12
Posts: 253
Loc: Seattle
Bian-
I am in the unlikely position of agreeing with you on the NCAA punishments as excessive. I raise you and say they are pointless for the reasons you have mentioned. No one wats to see innocent young men punished for things they had nothing whatsoever to do with. Furthermore, the very boys that this is all about were what? Huge Penn State fans. Don't know if they still are bu I would hate for them to feel somewhat guilty or in the slightest responsible for the loss of a an entire football program due to these sanctions. Guys, if your reading this: it's not your fault.

That said the myopia regarding one Joseph Paterno is still astonishing. Thank you for responding to my queery from before. Your stance has always been that morality -what Paterno SHOULD have done versus what he did do- is irrelevant because we need only be guided by the law. You take great displeasure in the "shoulds" because they impart a needless moral component.

Yet the first sentence in you defense of Paterno reads, "Paterno should never have been involved in ANY discussions afterward." There's that troublesome word. Paterno didn't recuse himself and no one kicked him out so your moral imparative, your "should" is just as irrelevant as saying, Paterno "should" know better than to usurp the power from the university hierarchy. The deed is done.

I feel like this defense isn't about one man and his active involvement in an ugly incident. You have very strong feelings about the public's view of morality and how that view can suddenly (and perhaps unfairly) color a man's reputation. Public shaming is a real concern for us and it's lost in this debate. I encourage you to explore it with us in a new thread that's about you and your expereiences. We need to rest this tired old story that everyone is now sick to death of.

Thank you again Brian, for your bravery. I disagree with almost all of it but I respect your balls.
_________________________
I've got a bike you can ride it if you like.
Its got a basket, a bell that rings
And many other things to make it look good.
I'd give it to you if I could -but I've borrowed it.

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#404527 - 07/23/12 07:02 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
cant_remember Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 1038
Brian,

You're not just defending the Penn State players, you also don't like Paterno's statue being taken down. You called that action a "crying shame" in a different thread. So let's be honest here.

You're defending Paterno and using his former players as human shields.

You're not going to win that argument here.
_________________________
Recovery is possible. Hang in there, brothers.

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#404570 - 07/24/12 12:48 AM * [Re: LN3(SS)]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 2217
*


Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/28/13 06:14 PM)

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#404582 - 07/24/12 07:23 AM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
IBB Offline


Registered: 07/24/12
Posts: 12
Insane. People defending Paterno on a site like this? Seriously. WTF?

Paterno cared more about being "humane" to a fucking child rapist and outside of that wanted to protect the college and football. And there's a big enough track record to prove that he protected the college and football over doing what was right in many other situation, like choosing to "punish" players himself for things they should have been handed over to police for.

It was always about his beloved college and sport and reputation, even to the point of looking the other way with Sandusky.

Step away from your blind hero worship for a few minutes and actually read the bloody reports that are available. Of course most people that want to keep worshiping their football god just dismiss the thing as being made up, so I guess that's a pointless recommendation.

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#404645 - 07/24/12 04:09 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
bodyguard8367 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1159
Loc: ""
""


Edited by bodyguard8367 (02/26/14 07:18 PM)
Edit Reason: SILENCED

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#404827 - 07/25/12 11:39 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
"To discuss Mr. Paterno's guilt or innocence is to ignore his own victimhood. Mr. Paterno is guilty, that is without question. He should have stopped Mr. Sandusky a long time ago. He was manipulated and victimized and conned into allowing it to continue for years. These are facts."

Joe Paterno was not victimized by Sandusky or anyone else, nor was he conned. He knew full well of Sandusky's activities, and chose not to follow through on reporting them to the police not because he was misled, fooled or manipulated. On the contrary, he failed to act for a completely rational albeit immoral reason, that being to avoid bringing his beloved football program and himself into disrepute. Joe Paterno was not a child. He was an adult with alot of power which he misused. It is an insult to the child victims of Jerry Sandusky to place Paterno in the same category as them.



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#404937 - 07/26/12 08:37 PM * [Re: tshodson]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 2217
*


Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/29/13 11:43 AM)

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#404955 - 07/26/12 10:28 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: Smalltown80sBoy]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
Thank you for your objective and insightful view. You are absolutely right that there were a cast of characters here who allowed this to happen. In saying so I don't hear you mitigating Paterno's guilt in the role he played. Rather, by widening the net of culpability it points to what should really concern us, which is a culture that tolerated and enabled the sexual abuse of children by a serial pedophile. As much as I bristle at those who forward a defense of Paterno, it is important to remember that pedophiles do indeed need alot of help to achieve their aims, and in the culture of Penn State the failures of one person alone wasn't enough to allow Sandusky to carry on as long as he did.
_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And well change the world.


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#404980 - 07/27/12 08:45 AM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
catfish86 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 820
Loc: Ohio
I take issue with the current players being punished line.

First of all, that is how NCAA sanctions work by necessity. These sanctions work to prevent future violations because they are designed to cause more damage than the gain of the violation. Hence stripping victories from the program to erase the gain of the all-time wins record. But more importantly, the next time a coach is caught abusing children, the clear conversation will likely be, "we have to report it, we don't want to end up like Penn State".

Second, from the record it is clear that Sandusky was still bringing boys with him to games until he was arrested after JoePas record 409th win. He was inviting Victim 2 (who was a man at the time) to games in the month leading up to the arrest. This was still using the program to cover his crimes. Lavar Arrington stated he and everyone involved with the program knew who these boys were because they saw them with Jerry all the time, even posed for pictures with them.

Third, there is the disturbing bullying described by Victim 1, forcing him to change schools. There have been reports of this style of retribution and intimidation. How many of these players supported the victims? How many participated in intimidation? They knew who they were.

Fourth, there is the no penalty transfer provisions. No PSU player has to remain with this program. PSU's players are generally top notch recruits that any other college will take in. Some of them are choosing to remain, but don't cry about it to me, they are adults with other options.
_________________________
God grant me
The Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The Courage to change the things I can,
And the Wisdom to know the difference.

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#404998 - 07/27/12 10:53 AM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: catfish86]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
Like I mentioned in an earlier posting, sometimes bad stuff happens in organizations and its just an unfortunate fact that thru no wrong doing of their own some people associated are affected adversely. It happens in every industry. For example, I once worked for a company that went belly up due to bad management. I took no part in their management decisions yet I was the one out of a job. Was I disappointed, unhappy and even angry? Sure, at first. But I moved on, and like you said the players at PSU also have that option. Given their level of skill they should have no problem pursuing a football career elsewhere.
_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And well change the world.


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