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#403969 - 07/18/12 02:16 PM PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense
tshodson Offline


Registered: 06/13/12
Posts: 131
I learned early in my law career that sometimes one just cannot defend the indefensible. That's what Paterno's family is trying to do. Instead, just be quiet...Give up the defense. Live with it...like the victims (survivors) live with the aftermath of Paterno's silence. Face it -- Paterno is a fallen hero. He is tarnished. He is not Christ-like and will not be resurrected...He is FINISHED! DONE!
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/b...RgGVLGw.twitter

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#403974 - 07/18/12 03:03 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
cant_remember Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 1046
The only way to get them to stop defending Paterno is to openly confront them on Facebook, Twitter and in real life, by first asking politely for them to reconsider, and when that doesn't work, employ other options, so that at least those around that person know he or she will be challenged in public for defending the indefensible.
_________________________
Recovery is possible. Hang in there, brothers.

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#403993 - 07/18/12 06:39 PM * [Re: tshodson]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 2217
*


Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/28/13 06:12 PM)

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#404024 - 07/18/12 10:47 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
catfish86 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 826
Loc: Ohio
Funny thing how the defense accused the victims of being out for money. I think they won't give it up because they see their share of JoePa's fortune slipping away before their eyes. If I remember right, some transfers right after the arrest were forcibly reversed. He knew the truth would come out and he tried to dump cash before it was at risk.
_________________________
God grant me
The Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The Courage to change the things I can,
And the Wisdom to know the difference.

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#404072 - 07/19/12 12:39 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
tshodson Offline


Registered: 06/13/12
Posts: 131
It's not about the damned statue of Paterno. That is a distraction. It is about the programmatic and institutional cover-ups and gross negligence of top ranking Penn State officials and coach for PR purposes. Please don't get sidetracked...The statue question is just NOISE.

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#404278 - 07/21/12 03:37 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
catfish86 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 826
Loc: Ohio
This is a blog on PSU recruiting. They have a constant excuse the program propaganda post. I have been calling them on the carpet for their crap.

PSU Recruiting Blog

They constantly rationalize, excuse and minimize (some of it outright lies) to excuse the program for repercussions for looking the other way while children were raped and even enabling the abuser to continue to use the program.

Feel free to give them a dose of reality. I have taken to adding, "The Emperor has no clothes" to every one of my posts.
_________________________
God grant me
The Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The Courage to change the things I can,
And the Wisdom to know the difference.

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#404381 - 07/22/12 04:04 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
LN3(SS) Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 486
Loc: MD
I disagree with you all. I will lay out my thinking here.

A - Did Joe Paterno have a duty of care? YES he did.

B - Did Joe Paterno breach that duty of care? HELL NO! He fulfilled his duty as a mandated reporter under Pennsylvania law. As the Pennsylvania statute read at the time, Paterno was legally obligated to "immediately notify the person in charge of the institution, school, facility or agency or the designated agent of the person in charge." 23 Pa. C. S. 6311(c). There is no dispute that Paterno did so. At that point, Paterno was legally absolved of responsibility to do anything further because "the person in charge or the designated agent, if any, shall assume the responsibility and have the legal obligation to report or cause a report to be made in accordance with section 6313." Id.

Whether or not Paterno was involved in any discussions, or had any desires about how to proceed, later on is irrelevant to the procedures that should have been followed. Spanier and Curley did not do this and will be tried for their failure to do so.

C - If Paterno did not breach his duty of care, there is no causation between his actions and the injuries suffered.


Personally, I wish we would stop trying to crucify people that failed to live up to a "moral code" and go after the people that fail to live up to the law's requirements. Let's get mad and change the laws regarding reporting for ALL survivors.

I personally hope MaleSurvivor stays out of the Joe Paterno debates.

Brian
_________________________
"When we go into battle, I will be the first to set foot on the field, and I will be the last to step off, and I will leave no one behind. Dead, or alive, we will all come home together." LTG Hal Moore, Jr., USA (Ret.)

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#404394 - 07/22/12 05:32 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
scottyg Offline


Registered: 06/26/12
Posts: 253
Loc: Seattle
wow Brian. Your perspective is surprising given you status as a Member of the Male Survivor organization, an entity that works to help the community expose and heal from institutionalized predatory practices against children. I wonder if you would indulge me by giving your viewpoints on these questions:
1) Would you not agree that Paterno set the tone for all key decisions regarding Sandusky as evidenced by the procedural 180 by the Spanier administration that was documented in emails subsequent to high level discussions with Paterno about Mike McQeary's revelations? If not how else do you rationalize the university's sudden reversal on the matter?
2) Would you not agree that Paterno was in fact the most powerful leader on campus as evidenced by his stubborn refusal to retire in 2004 after the AD and other university officials asked him to step down? The anecdote is JoePa threw them out of his house. Who throws their own boss out of a meeting and keeps his job unless he is in fact the true power broker?
3)Finally, would you not conclude that a perfunctory reporting of the Sandusky case to Penn Sate administration was, in fact, a hollow gesture that did not fulfill any duty but to absolve himself of immediate blame?
You ave given a broad based rationale for why the rudiments of reporting abuse are enough but I truly want to become educated about why these specific actions are not reprehensible.
_________________________
I've got a bike you can ride it if you like.
Its got a basket, a bell that rings
And many other things to make it look good.
I'd give it to you if I could -but I've borrowed it.

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#404395 - 07/22/12 05:46 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
cant_remember Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 1046
Brian,

By the nature of MS, there are a lot of raw emotions here, and very open sharing of very damaging experiences... Therefore, to go against the grain as you are doing here should be done with the utmost care.

I wish you peace in your healing process.

Jim


Edited by cant_remember (07/22/12 11:48 PM)
_________________________
Recovery is possible. Hang in there, brothers.

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#404396 - 07/22/12 06:22 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
SamV Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5947
Loc: Talladega, Alabama, USA
Gentlemen, I admire the restraint and the eloquence of the posting here. Your desire to be heard has thus far outweighed the impulse to be right, well done. We post and reply to support and connect in MaleSurvivor, opinions are welcome, but we will not be stifling any thoughts about this topic, and you all have modeled the epitome of self control.

I appreciate the cerebral response to this issue as we work out the intense feelings concerning this hotbed topic, my heart goes out to you as you deliberate. Please continue to reconcile, to connect and to reinforce these relationships through this difficult series of events.

Sam

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#404413 - 07/22/12 09:53 PM * [Re: LN3(SS)]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 2217
*


Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/28/13 06:13 PM)

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#404414 - 07/22/12 09:56 PM * [Re: SamV]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 2217
*


Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/28/13 06:13 PM)

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#404461 - 07/23/12 10:14 AM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
LN3(SS) Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 486
Loc: MD
I think the "moral responsibility" thing can be argued forever. He fulfilled his "moral responsibility" when he met the legal responsibility the law assigned him. That's essentially what the law is: a moral judgment on what we may and may not do.

Scotty,

1) Paterno should never have been involved in ANY discussions afterward, if he was. Once the information was reported to the designated officials (Spanier and Curley), it was THEIR responsibility under Pennsylvania law to report the matter to police. Having further discussions was against the law. Spanier and Curley will pay the price. Further, we do know that Paterno never used email. Therefore there are no documents that prove what Paterno might have said.

2) Regardless of whether Paterno was the "most powerful leader on campus" or not, his job title was that of head football coach. Not "designated recipient of child abuse reports." That distinction means that he had the ability to do exactly what he did under Pennsylvania law: report the abuse to the official so authorized.

3) If we are concluding that reporting to the school administration is a hollow gesture, then we better change that law. That is the process the Pennsylvania legislature set up for reporting abuse: reporting within the confines of an institution. This is never a good thing. But a person that follows the law, as written, should not then be accused of failing to do his part to protect abuse victims.

Brian
_________________________
"When we go into battle, I will be the first to set foot on the field, and I will be the last to step off, and I will leave no one behind. Dead, or alive, we will all come home together." LTG Hal Moore, Jr., USA (Ret.)

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#404466 - 07/23/12 11:03 AM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
catfish86 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 826
Loc: Ohio
Brian, I once admired Joe Paterno and Penn State. My high school iss a football power house in NE Ohio and JoePa was a frequent visitor. Joe's actions were off the charts. He knew of the investigation with emails stating he was eager to know the progress and mysteriously a very embarassing prosecution was avoided. There is so much that stinks in the program and the whole scenario. I can tell you from players talking about colleges,etc that JoePa spoke and it happened at PSU. Had he said punish and stop Sandusky, it would have happened. We have emails saying he did the exact opposite. He not only looked the other way, he gave Sandusky all the tools to continue. That is why his statue is removed and he lost every win since the 1998 shower incident. We all know the patterns and behaviors of predators. We all know it would be surprising if it hadn't been going on since 1969 when Sandusky first started coaching at Penn State. I can tell you that people considered PSU were told you had to accept the fact that even if you were the ball boy Joe Paterno would know if you farted at the dinner table. Tell me he didn't know a lot longer than just 1998.
_________________________
God grant me
The Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The Courage to change the things I can,
And the Wisdom to know the difference.

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#404475 - 07/23/12 12:58 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
Merci Offline


Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 2
Loc: U.S.
I joined this discussion forum today hoping to find some conversation involving Penn State that did not defend Paterno, and of all places, here in a survivor space, the excuses continue.

Brian, as you pointed out, Joe did report to Curley and Spanier, yet that was the bare minimum requirement. Anyone in a position of authority at an educational facility, which includes athletic coaches, who receives information pertaining to an imminent threat to the safety and well being of young children should be expected to respond far above that minimum requirement. Maintaining a safe environment on campus by following up on what actions could have been taken against Sandusky is no violation of any law. Paterno's lack of concern for anything but his pride helped bring the situation at Penn State to where it is now.

The sanctions seem reasonable, with less punishment for current athletes and the brunt of the backlash on Paterno's legacy as a hero on the field while a coward at heart.
_________________________
"None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free."
-Goethe

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#404487 - 07/23/12 02:21 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
tshodson Offline


Registered: 06/13/12
Posts: 131
Paterno's family reacts. Calls the President of Penn State's response to the NCAA ruling a "panicked response to the public's understandable revulsion." They wanted a full hearing before the NCAA...Please...

http://www.wishtv.com/dpps/sports/footba..._medium=twitter

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#404492 - 07/23/12 03:04 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
cant_remember Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 1046
Merci,

Welcome to MS. We're sorry you need us; but we're glad you're here.

As for Brian and his defense of Paterno, don't let it bother you.

Today is a good day for survivors because we've been heard. Our brave brothers who took the stand against Sandusky have saved an untold number of future victims the grief of becoming survivors like us.

There's still a long road ahead for this story, but the Cult of Paterno is now dead.
_________________________
Recovery is possible. Hang in there, brothers.

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#404493 - 07/23/12 03:38 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
tshodson Offline


Registered: 06/13/12
Posts: 131
Paterno's family says that NCAA "defamed the legacy" of a great coach...OMG...He was not a god...He was a flawed individual as we all are ....

"The sanctions announced by the NCAA today defame the legacy and contributions of a great coach and educator without any input from our family or those who knew him best,” they said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/early-lead/post/paterno-family-calls-ncaa-penalties-against-penn-state-a-panicked-response/2012/07/23/gJQAm4bn4W_blog.html?Post+generic=%3Ftid%3Dsm_twitter_washingtonpost
Paterno family calls NCAA penalties against Penn State a ‘panicked response’

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#404499 - 07/23/12 04:02 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: catfish86]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
Do Paterno’s successes as a football coach somehow mitigate or erase his failings at moral leadership? It shouldn’t, yet there are so many similar examples of people willing to jump to the defense of notable persons despite the wrong they have done. The defenders of Michael Jackson and Roman Polanski come to mind. Yes both contributed much as artists yet the fact can’t be escaped that both also sexually abused children. However, we still have multitudes that jumped to their defense as if their abusive behaviour was in spite of their importance as artists, and not in part because of it. Both Jackson and Polanski used their elevated positions to abuse children, and to some degree Paterno did the same thing by turning away from his moral responsibility to protect children in order to protect Penn State’s football program instead, which by extension was for his own gratification. Like with Jackson and Polanski, I have no problem saying that Paterno was greatly talented and a giant in his chosen profession but I won’t for an instant excuse his greater moral failings as a human being because of his worldly accomplishments. Just my thoughts.
_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#404500 - 07/23/12 04:18 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
At the risk of sounding self-righteous yes I have my flaws but I don't consider myself nearly as flawed as Paterno was. For example, I would never put my "legacy" or position in life ahead of protecting the vulnerable, but perhaps that is a lesson I've learned from being a survivor.
_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#404501 - 07/23/12 04:21 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
tshodson Offline


Registered: 06/13/12
Posts: 131
I agree jls...I was just trying to point out that I am really sick of this hero worship above all else and that so many people feel that Paterno is a god-like figure...In fact, he was just human and really a really flawed one at that...and his flaws caused hurt and damage to many, many young boys...

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#404503 - 07/23/12 04:30 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
tshodson Offline


Registered: 06/13/12
Posts: 131
If you really want to get sick, read about tweets from the Penn St. faithful. Such a sick culture... They even blame the media...oh -- what else is new?

http://gothamist.com/2012/07/23/bitter_reactions_to_ncaas_punitive.php

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#404505 - 07/23/12 04:47 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
tshodson Offline


Registered: 06/13/12
Posts: 131
Really good article saying we should stop talking about football in the Sandusky matter and get back to the REAL issues...

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/23/ncaa-sanctions-let-s-forget-about-football-now.html

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#404508 - 07/23/12 05:02 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
I have personal experience with this since last year I put my job on the line by reporting the abuse of a dog in my workplace to the SPCA. I was well aware that doing so would put me in the crosshairs of my employer because he was aware that the abuse of the animal was happening but did nothing, which where I'm from is illegal not to report. Anyways I'm not saying its easy to report the powers that be. Far from it. I found it extremely stressful to be in the middle of it and as a survivor was triggered by it big time. However, I had to ask myself what I could live with and decided that I could live without the job but couldn't live without my integrity so that's why I acted. Thankfully I still have a job but that's besides the point in my mind.
_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#404512 - 07/23/12 05:16 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
That is sick, the tweets I mean. Equating upset football fans to what csa survivors endured is very disturbing. These people need a harsh dose of reality to re-set their sense of proportionality. In light of their reaction perhaps it would have been best to pull the plug on the football program altogether. As such they should just shut up and be grateful that they got away with more than what was deserved.
_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#404513 - 07/23/12 05:24 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
LN3(SS) Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 486
Loc: MD
These penalties were excessive.

The upcoming football players did not commit these crimes, Sandusky did. Taking scholarships away so these kids cannot attend college undermines these kids's future education. How many kids have worked their entire lives to be able to play college football?

The football players that won all those games for the last decade plus did not commit these crimes. Sandusky, Spanier, and Curley did. Vacating those wins undermine the effort of those teams that played their hearts out and won those games on the field. Paterno fulfilled his duty under the law and now has lost his wins for fulfilling his legal duty. Great way to encourage people to obey mandatory reporting laws.

About the only part that I halfway agree with is the fine.
Quote:
Removed incendiary comments


I'm disappointed that MaleSurvivor would support these sanctions.

Brian


Edited by ModTeam (07/23/12 06:18 PM)
Edit Reason: Please keep to the topic without engaging in other argument's. If you feel the need to express those other thoughts, do so by creating another topic. Please continue to express yourselves within the guidelines, this is welcome in our safe place.
_________________________
"When we go into battle, I will be the first to set foot on the field, and I will be the last to step off, and I will leave no one behind. Dead, or alive, we will all come home together." LTG Hal Moore, Jr., USA (Ret.)

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#404515 - 07/23/12 05:42 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: LN3(SS)]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
What you fail to address is that Penn State as an organization needs to face consequences for failing to report Sandusky's crimes and in effect were an accessory to them by allowing Sandusky's continued participation in their football program. There is a degree of liability here on Penn State's part that can't be ignored by simply pointing the finger at the perpetrator after the fact when they knew full well what was going on all along. You continue to repeat that Paterno fulfilled his obligation to report. I don't believe this to be true at all. If I knew that a child was being abused but only reported the first instance and ignored the rest while the abuse continued does this count as fulfilling my duty? Hardly. After all, the point of reporting is to stop the abuse, right? When his report to the university went unheard he should have gone directly to the authorities. There is no question that this would have been the only proper course of action. Of course I'm speaking of the way things work in the real world and not the one coloured by football fans in denial. As far as that goes when it comes down to it it's just a game. Sexual abuse is not so some people should get a grip already.
_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#404516 - 07/23/12 05:43 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
cant_remember Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 1046
Paterno lied to the grand jury. If he were still alive, he would have been indicted given what came out in the Freeh report.

Get over it.
_________________________
Recovery is possible. Hang in there, brothers.

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#404523 - 07/23/12 06:45 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
LN3(SS) Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 486
Loc: MD
jls,

I agree that Penn State, as an institution, needs to face penalties. And they did in the form of $60M. I support the penalties about probation and creating a compliance officer.

What I can't square is hurting young adults that have committed no wrong and merely sought to play the game of football while receiving a higher education. That is the net effect of vacating those wins.

I also can't square hurting young adults that seek to play football and get their education at Penn State. That is the net effect of taking ten scholarships per year. These adults did nothing wrong. They simply may want to go to school close to home and have the ability to play in Division I football.

Penalizing these young adults for something they had no connection with is wrong.

Brian
_________________________
"When we go into battle, I will be the first to set foot on the field, and I will be the last to step off, and I will leave no one behind. Dead, or alive, we will all come home together." LTG Hal Moore, Jr., USA (Ret.)

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#404524 - 07/23/12 06:53 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
MrEdd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/24/03
Posts: 317
Loc: Texas
It is not possible for the NCAA penalties to be excessive.
Not today, not tomorrow, not yesterday, or any other day.

Football is just a game.
It is diversionary entertainment.
It is nothing more than that.
It can never be more than that.
It is just a bunch of people running around throwing a ball.
Period.

If someone can not grasp this, they have a mental problem. Their mental problem, however, does not make diversionary passtimes of more than the most casual importance.

In addition, if the school doesn't like the rules, it can drop out of the NCAA at any time. The money put into sports could be better spent.

Little boys being raped, is tragic.
That is something important.
Whatever it takes to stop it needs to be done.

For those who don't watch sports, well...
I wouldn't give a crap if a child rape scandal in hollywood caused someones favorite TV show to be canceled - and the actors and script writers could go do something else.

No difference.

Neither is of any importance at all measured against the damage serial pedophiles do.

Ever.

Grow up.
_________________________
Some Things are not problems to be solved, rather, they are facts which must be coped with over time.

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#404526 - 07/23/12 06:58 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
scottyg Offline


Registered: 06/26/12
Posts: 253
Loc: Seattle
Bian-
I am in the unlikely position of agreeing with you on the NCAA punishments as excessive. I raise you and say they are pointless for the reasons you have mentioned. No one wats to see innocent young men punished for things they had nothing whatsoever to do with. Furthermore, the very boys that this is all about were what? Huge Penn State fans. Don't know if they still are bu I would hate for them to feel somewhat guilty or in the slightest responsible for the loss of a an entire football program due to these sanctions. Guys, if your reading this: it's not your fault.

That said the myopia regarding one Joseph Paterno is still astonishing. Thank you for responding to my queery from before. Your stance has always been that morality -what Paterno SHOULD have done versus what he did do- is irrelevant because we need only be guided by the law. You take great displeasure in the "shoulds" because they impart a needless moral component.

Yet the first sentence in you defense of Paterno reads, "Paterno should never have been involved in ANY discussions afterward." There's that troublesome word. Paterno didn't recuse himself and no one kicked him out so your moral imparative, your "should" is just as irrelevant as saying, Paterno "should" know better than to usurp the power from the university hierarchy. The deed is done.

I feel like this defense isn't about one man and his active involvement in an ugly incident. You have very strong feelings about the public's view of morality and how that view can suddenly (and perhaps unfairly) color a man's reputation. Public shaming is a real concern for us and it's lost in this debate. I encourage you to explore it with us in a new thread that's about you and your expereiences. We need to rest this tired old story that everyone is now sick to death of.

Thank you again Brian, for your bravery. I disagree with almost all of it but I respect your balls.
_________________________
I've got a bike you can ride it if you like.
Its got a basket, a bell that rings
And many other things to make it look good.
I'd give it to you if I could -but I've borrowed it.

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#404527 - 07/23/12 07:02 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
cant_remember Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 1046
Brian,

You're not just defending the Penn State players, you also don't like Paterno's statue being taken down. You called that action a "crying shame" in a different thread. So let's be honest here.

You're defending Paterno and using his former players as human shields.

You're not going to win that argument here.
_________________________
Recovery is possible. Hang in there, brothers.

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#404570 - 07/24/12 12:48 AM * [Re: LN3(SS)]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 2217
*


Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/28/13 06:14 PM)

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#404582 - 07/24/12 07:23 AM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
IBB Offline


Registered: 07/24/12
Posts: 12
Insane. People defending Paterno on a site like this? Seriously. WTF?

Paterno cared more about being "humane" to a fucking child rapist and outside of that wanted to protect the college and football. And there's a big enough track record to prove that he protected the college and football over doing what was right in many other situation, like choosing to "punish" players himself for things they should have been handed over to police for.

It was always about his beloved college and sport and reputation, even to the point of looking the other way with Sandusky.

Step away from your blind hero worship for a few minutes and actually read the bloody reports that are available. Of course most people that want to keep worshiping their football god just dismiss the thing as being made up, so I guess that's a pointless recommendation.

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#404645 - 07/24/12 04:09 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
bodyguard8367 Offline
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Edited by bodyguard8367 (02/26/14 07:18 PM)
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#404827 - 07/25/12 11:39 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
"To discuss Mr. Paterno's guilt or innocence is to ignore his own victimhood. Mr. Paterno is guilty, that is without question. He should have stopped Mr. Sandusky a long time ago. He was manipulated and victimized and conned into allowing it to continue for years. These are facts."

Joe Paterno was not victimized by Sandusky or anyone else, nor was he conned. He knew full well of Sandusky's activities, and chose not to follow through on reporting them to the police not because he was misled, fooled or manipulated. On the contrary, he failed to act for a completely rational albeit immoral reason, that being to avoid bringing his beloved football program and himself into disrepute. Joe Paterno was not a child. He was an adult with alot of power which he misused. It is an insult to the child victims of Jerry Sandusky to place Paterno in the same category as them.



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#404937 - 07/26/12 08:37 PM * [Re: tshodson]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
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Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/29/13 11:43 AM)

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#404955 - 07/26/12 10:28 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: Smalltown80sBoy]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
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Thank you for your objective and insightful view. You are absolutely right that there were a cast of characters here who allowed this to happen. In saying so I don't hear you mitigating Paterno's guilt in the role he played. Rather, by widening the net of culpability it points to what should really concern us, which is a culture that tolerated and enabled the sexual abuse of children by a serial pedophile. As much as I bristle at those who forward a defense of Paterno, it is important to remember that pedophiles do indeed need alot of help to achieve their aims, and in the culture of Penn State the failures of one person alone wasn't enough to allow Sandusky to carry on as long as he did.
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Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#404980 - 07/27/12 08:45 AM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
catfish86 Offline
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I take issue with the current players being punished line.

First of all, that is how NCAA sanctions work by necessity. These sanctions work to prevent future violations because they are designed to cause more damage than the gain of the violation. Hence stripping victories from the program to erase the gain of the all-time wins record. But more importantly, the next time a coach is caught abusing children, the clear conversation will likely be, "we have to report it, we don't want to end up like Penn State".

Second, from the record it is clear that Sandusky was still bringing boys with him to games until he was arrested after JoePas record 409th win. He was inviting Victim 2 (who was a man at the time) to games in the month leading up to the arrest. This was still using the program to cover his crimes. Lavar Arrington stated he and everyone involved with the program knew who these boys were because they saw them with Jerry all the time, even posed for pictures with them.

Third, there is the disturbing bullying described by Victim 1, forcing him to change schools. There have been reports of this style of retribution and intimidation. How many of these players supported the victims? How many participated in intimidation? They knew who they were.

Fourth, there is the no penalty transfer provisions. No PSU player has to remain with this program. PSU's players are generally top notch recruits that any other college will take in. Some of them are choosing to remain, but don't cry about it to me, they are adults with other options.
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#404998 - 07/27/12 10:53 AM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: catfish86]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
Like I mentioned in an earlier posting, sometimes bad stuff happens in organizations and it’s just an unfortunate fact that thru no wrong doing of their own some people associated are affected adversely. It happens in every industry. For example, I once worked for a company that went belly up due to bad management. I took no part in their management decisions yet I was the one out of a job. Was I disappointed, unhappy and even angry? Sure, at first. But I moved on, and like you said the players at PSU also have that option. Given their level of skill they should have no problem pursuing a football career elsewhere.
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Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#405010 - 07/27/12 02:05 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: jls]
bodyguard8367 Offline
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Edited by bodyguard8367 (02/26/14 07:19 PM)
Edit Reason: SILENCED

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#405047 - 07/27/12 10:22 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: bodyguard8367]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
What I objected to in your post was your statement that Joe Paterno was somehow a victim of the same deceit and manipulation that Jerry Sandusky used overall and most specifically toward his child victims. I feel it is absurd to call a man of Paterno's stature, authority and position a victim of Sandusky, and even more so since Sandusky's position at PSU was that of Paterno's subordinate. I'm sorry that you were offended by my response to your post but I don't apologize for it. Last I looked this is an open forum and with that you can expect a response to what you post. On that note thank you for replying to my response since even though we don't agree I too must be accountable for what I write here, which in this case I stand by.
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Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#405117 - 07/28/12 12:32 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
bodyguard8367 Offline
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Edited by bodyguard8367 (02/26/14 07:19 PM)
Edit Reason: SILENCED

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#405124 - 07/28/12 01:25 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: bodyguard8367]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
I appreciate you clarifying that, and your right that pedophiles do manipulate other adults in children's lives in order to abuse. However, even in this context I still take issue with applying the victim label to Paterno. For one, even if he was blind to what Sandusky was up to it was willfully so since there was an obvious motivation on Paterno's part to keep Sandusky's activities quiet, that being to protect PSU's football program above all else. Second, like I keep re-iterating, Paterno was a man with a lot of power, and as Sandsuky's superior over him in particular, so logic dictates that the victim label doesn't apply. Paterno may have been manipulated but certainly without putting up much resistance to it, and like I said he had his own motivations to not protest Sandusky's behaviour too loudly.
_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#405127 - 07/28/12 01:45 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
bodyguard8367 Offline
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Edited by bodyguard8367 (02/26/14 07:19 PM)
Edit Reason: SILENCED

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#405169 - 07/29/12 12:31 AM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
I misunderstood when you said Paterno was a victim as I took it in the same sense that Sandusky's child victims were. I understand now that this isn't what you meant, and I appreciate it that you no longer describe Paterno as a victim in any other context. As far as burying the hatchet goes please know that it was not my intention to pick a fight with you or anyone else. I can be passionate when expressing my views and while being disagreed with is not always comfortable I respect the courage it shows to challenge someone's opinion so thank you for that.
_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#405203 - 07/29/12 12:46 PM Re: PLEASE -- Give up the Paterno Defense [Re: tshodson]
bodyguard8367 Offline
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Edited by bodyguard8367 (02/26/14 07:20 PM)
Edit Reason: SILENCED

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