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#401111 - 06/21/12 02:34 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2024
Loc: durham, north england

blessedcurse, I don't disagree there are! reasonable feminists, I just find it difficult that in society sexism and sterriotypes about men aren't punished. If a woman says "all men are pigs" it's treated as amusing, and indeed in many quarters correct, if a man said "all women are pigs" he'd be sanctioned.

If a woman goes against traditional gender rolls,m disliking children, not having babies etc, she's seen as strong, but if she goes with them that's fine, where as for a man there is only one acceptable method. just look at clothing! a woman can dress in any amount of traditional masculine clothing she wants, but could a man be accepted wearing something feminine?

indeed, the idea of a man caring anything about his appearence is usually frowned upon, where as if a woman (as some friends of mine do), just wants to throw on a T shirt and some trousers that's fine!

it is this double standard I dislike so much, particularly sinse women can manipulate the sterritoypes by crying, saying they need protection etc, while men are forced into the roll of big dumb apes.

Yes, there are! people who will have ridiculously sexist views against women, and i dislike reading them as much as I dislike reading sexist views against men, but it seems where the one is recognized, the other isn't.

Heck, my mum, who is the most accepting person I can imagine occasionally comes out with statements like "well your bathroom smells great for a man's" or "you keep your place much cleaner than a single man is supposed to"

What? so if I'm a man I'm supposed to not know how to clean stuff? this is crazy, sinse in other respects my mum is pretty accepting of none traditional gender rolls.

I admit, my own experiences probably dont' despose me to take this sort of issue naturally, not the least because of how the gender rolls in courtships have destroyed my chances of ever having a relationship, but hat is one reason i want to write on this in the future.

@garry, I can't share the liking how men smell or any aesthetic appreciation of men sinse I'm not gay myself, (I have such an appreciation of women), but I really applaud your statement about "I'm me, I'm garry!"

I actually remember the first time I met a chap who was gay at uni, I had no idea he was at all until I met his bf. Even though I didn't have any strong netative feelings against gay men (or women for that matter), I had this sort of assumption that there would be something noticeable, something defignably different about someone who was gay that I could identify.

My friend john however was a very standard student in many ways, and indeed nothing like the sterriotype of a gay man at all. There was absolutely nothing in how he dressed or how he behaved, indeed he had a very sardonic and quite synical sense of humour, though was quite a decent chap underneith.

I'd actually spent three months going to the same tutorials, staying in the same colidge, and occasionally having random conversations in the bar or over coffee with him without realizing he was gay at all, ---- indeed on one occasion John, along with me and another friend had spent a long afternoon in my room trying to understand formal logic.
That was really what showed me that expecting sterriotypes to make any sort of difference at all to the way people are is generally absolutely rubbish!

I now don't expect! anyone to be a certain way, irrispective of gender, religion, orientation, race or whatever, and will pretty much behave the same way towards anybody. I just wish people could extend me the same curtacy.

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#401114 - 06/21/12 02:54 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
whome Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1736
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
Hey Guys,
Just my five cents,
I like what Writer Keith said.
And I add.
Most stupidity can be dismissed with a simple HOOO RAAA
Life and its workings are not as complicated as woman make it out to be.
Working on cars is more fun than cleaning the house.
Our pursuits are less complicated.

Martin

_________________________
Matrix Men South Africa
Survivors Supporting Each other
Matrix Men Blog

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#401119 - 06/21/12 07:45 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
SamV Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5947
Loc: Talladega, Alabama, USA
This is a great topic, this celebration of male-hood. We are encouraged to embrace our gender, to find ways to aggrandize the cracks, embolden the strengths and discover the wonder of male. To discuss this is balanced and can be rewarding.

We do not need however, to compare or contrast the good points against other groups nor generalize statements that encompass an entire group. Discussing other groups as a whole when describing negative aspects of some in the group should have the correct verbiage associated with our perspective. Please be careful when discussing other groups, or within any group certain aspects that can be considered negative or demeaning. Within each group, we should strive to find good, pleasant and beneficial terms to describe the whole and the parts of any group.

The necessity to at times describe an unpleasant aspect we have encountered is certainly welcomed here as long as it is brought up in specific reference to a personal event or perspective.

Sam
_________________________
MaleSurvivor Moderator Emeritus 2012 - 2014

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#401138 - 06/21/12 09:43 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2024
Loc: durham, north england
Whome, I'm a little confused on your "fixing cars is more pleasureable than cleaning the house" sinse I'd personally say the other way around, as I have no interest in the one, but an interest in doing the other well.

sasuva I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that any! kind of group assumption or identification is a bad and dangerous business.

I can appreciate that from a purely logical standpoint a basic, inductive series of reasons is usefull in the way we make informational judgements about the contents of the world, but applying this to types of human beeings as opposed to inanimate objects or circumstances is a different matter.

Saying that all the times you've eaten tuna fish you've become ill, so therefore all tuna fish makes you ill is a long way from saying that sinse you've encountered a large percentage of women who like children all must do.

This is the meaning of "prejudice" pre, justice, eg, assumption before the fact.

Still worse, are the forces that encourage people to behave! accordingt to the prior judgements of others simply based on the fact that they are a member of a group, --- -whenever I see adverts saying "all girls should buy this!" I want to spit.

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#401144 - 06/21/12 10:46 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
Blessedcurse Offline


Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 93
Originally Posted By: dark empathy
"
Still worse, are the forces that encourage people to behave! accordingt to the prior judgements of others simply based on the fact that they are a member of a group, --- -whenever I see adverts saying "all girls should buy this!" I want to spit.



Word! It makes me sick. And the world is so full of this shit. Commercials, tv-shows, everything. Telling us how to be due to gender. I hate it. Why can't everybody just be who they are and be as masculine and feminine as they happen to be?

Sasuva: Oh, did we do that? It was not my meaning. To me there is a big difference between generalising people and generalising ideas. For example, saying "all women loves shopping" is just not ok because then we talk about the women themselves. But saying "all feminists hate men", for example, I think is a different thing (though wrong) because then we talk about a set of opinions that we do or don't agree with, not the group of people. And having said this thing we can share our experiences of different types of feminists and maybe conclude there are many types, many different schools, some hate men and these schools we don't like but the other ones have good points. So to me it's ok to generalise about a set of opinions like "feminists" "socialists" and so on if you are open to get new information. Generalising "women" or "men" or "arabs" or whatever I think is a whole different thing. If I completely missed your point I apologise. I'm not entirely sure in what way we overgeneralised.

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#401145 - 06/21/12 10:59 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
SamV Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5947
Loc: Talladega, Alabama, USA
Call me Sam,

I love the tuna comment, lol. A friend was over last night and he has stated he hates cream cheese. My wife made an Alfredo and served it. He loved it and asked for more. Half way through the second dish, she told him it had two packages of cream cheese in it. He looked disgusted, then disappointed, then he ate the rest of it and licked the bowel clean!

Yep, folks don't like labels anymore than we do. First it is such an assumption, innocently made, then it gets bigger and meaner somehow, and ends up whispered on the lips of our children.., discouraging. I wonder if that is how 90 per cent of the male sexual abuse myths began!?!!

Thanks for the reply.

Sam
_________________________
MaleSurvivor Moderator Emeritus 2012 - 2014

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#401155 - 06/21/12 11:42 AM . [Re: Blessedcurse]
Life's A Dream Offline


Registered: 08/25/11
Posts: 886
Loc: Bouvet Island
.


Edited by Life's A Dream (01/12/13 09:54 PM)

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#401290 - 06/22/12 11:41 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2024
Loc: durham, north england
I love the word misandry! there's a really nice bit in Karl sagan's contact where the protagonist, a girl studdying physics in the 1950s says she hates men (understandable due to her experiences of being excluded from the scientific community pbecause of her gender at that time), then gets annoyed by the fact that misanthropy means hating people generally! laugh.

In fairness, it's not just gender where people are forced to obey lables. people from a given region, of a given class, even of a given skin colour or religious belief, though i think gender probably has the most to answer for in this respect, especially with how it's treated in the media and in advertizing, ---- indeed the women and shopping thing probably has as much to do with adverts that insist! women should! like shopping as any learnt behaviour.

When I studdied gender acquisition in psychology this was always something that i found utterly Bizarre, sinse psychologists would focus on characters in films or doing activities, and utterly ignore what people saw at every commercial break.

though in fairness, despite the medias images, one of the good! aspects of feminism is that there are people campaigning against this, the sad thing however is that this has only gone part of the way, and now women are more free to choose gender characteristics than men, ---- still worse, the female sterriotype hasn't been abandoned, now it's just optional, ---- eg, we admit women can be strong and independent, yet there are still women who manipulate their way through the world with emotional desplays and crying.

this is just! as sexist as claiming that something is "a man's job" and shouldn't nbe done by women.

I also pick on extreme feminists sinse in corporate institutions extreme feminists are worryingly common. For instance, there are women who will have a real go at someone (especially a man), for something as simple as holding a door open, ---- even though I myself would hold a door open for anyone walking behind me as a matter of common politeness, irrispective of gender.

Then as stated above is the fact that sexist statements about women are treated so differently to those about men.

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#401462 - 06/23/12 06:09 PM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
Blessedcurse Offline


Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 93
I've been thinking about this, and why we keep leaving the subject (what is good about being male). I think the question itself inevitably raises the issue what is male anyway. And as I see it, most of the good and bad things about being male or female, aside from the downright physical aspects, are about the societal view of gender. What we, as male, are forced to do and be because of the reactions of the people around us and because of conditioning from early childhood wich continues in media and in expectations from spouses, collegues and other people around us.

This compulsory repressing of the parts of us that, due to gender, are not accepted, I think is equal for both genders though what we repress are different.

It's true that women have gained more freedom in acting out their "masculine" sides than men have regarding to their "feminine" sides. I think this might be because the "masculine" side is connected to power, freedom, control and all of that wich gave women in large a huge incitament to fight for their right to be more "masculine". Of course, getting ones opinion heard, having ones own money and property, being treated as an important person in society and control ones own life was hughely important to women and still is, since the "feminine" traits are about being week, powerless and therefore in need to use manipulative tecniques to gain some control.

So now we have a position where we, as men, still are bound to the "masculinity" and don't have the freedom to cry, be emotional, be respected as victims, be caretakers of children, objectify ourselves, be needy and clingy when we are sad and all of that, without being frowned at or called sissys or even inside ourselves feel that we are making ourselves ridiculous.

This compulsory masculinity, in my experience, is kept up by both men and women. To be honest, I have met more disrespect for feminine behaviour in a man by men than by women, but then that might be due to the individuals I speak to, not a truth about men or women in general.

So how do we get out of this prison? Well... with women (much because of feminism through the ages) having taken on a lot of the "masculine" traits we have a shorter struggle. But of course there is a struggle of it. Just like women and feminists have struggled for their right to be themselves with both feminine and masculine traits, I guess men have to fight for the same. Not just accept the "boys don't cry" or "don't be a sissy", but react to it just as strongly as women react to "this is a mans work".

So, for example, in a movie where the male and female lead are portrayed in a very normative manner with the male being strong and fierce and the female week and emonional and in need of rescue, there will probably be criticism about the portrayal of the week woman who is not alowed to be a whole person, but no criticism about the portrayal of the man. Why?

Maybe because it's more upsetting for women to be portrayed (and conditioned to be) powerless, manipulative and in need of male rescue than it is for men to be portrayed (and conditioned to be) strong, powerful and always ready to rescue a beautiful woman. I don't know. But I'm pretty sure it's women who had raised their voices against the narrow role of womanhood, so I guess it's up to men to raise their voices against the narrow role of manhood (no, that means something else? Manliness I mean)

And this, in my opinion, is not something we can do by criticising women for rebelling against the limitations in being a woman in a patriarcal society. This we must do by rebelling ourselves against the limitations of being a man in a patriarchy. And I really do think that is easier for us now that the women already did most of their part. If there is no week, powerless crying women in need of rescue, why should we then still be forced to behave like the strong powerful rescuer? This would have been so much more difficult in the 50's

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