dark empathy -

here - as promised - are some quotes on hope that might help...

I did an online search for quotes on “hope” and picked the ones I like best. None of them say it all – so I saved a collection of them. And obviously, they are individuals’ ideas – not necessarily definitions or explanations. But I think there is a lot of truth and wisdom in some of them. Even if they are not provable or scientifically verifiable, I find that they produce hope within my own mind and/or spirit, so I think they produce the result I want and need. I love the fact that all kinds of people – from scientists, to writers, to world leaders, to philosophers, have said similar or related things about hope. (of course, I left out all the cynical and negative ones!) I mean, it’s not just the “impractical” creative or imaginative types who emphasize the power of hope. Here they are, with my comments and transitions:

“Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning.”
Albert Einstein

Good emphasis on questioning – always keep trying to figure things out. If you question – you must expect or hope for an answer. Questioning seems to be a cause or effect of hope – maybe both.

“We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope.”
Martin Luther King, Jr.

I like that – limited disappointment but unlimited hope.

“Hope is a state of mind, not of the world. Hope, in this deep and powerful sense, is not the same as joy that things are going well, or willingness to invest in enterprises that are obviously heading for success, but rather an ability to work for something because it is good.”
Vaclav Havel

In this quote, it seems that hope and determination or perseverance are very closely connected, if not almost synonymous. And the end result is important – you gotta have something you are looking forward to. I think there is something to this, as the next one seems to express:

“Hope is patience with the lamp lit.”
Tertullian.

This sounds like expectation to me – another good near-equivalent to hope. So if you have expectation – there must be an object or goal or attainment that you are expecting.

“Expect to have hope rekindled. Expect your prayers to be answered in wondrous ways. The dry seasons in life do not last. The spring rains will come again.”
Sarah Ban Breathnach

I know – sometimes it is hard to believe anything will ever be better. This next one speaks to that.

“Isn't it the moment of most profound doubt that gives birth to new certainties? Perhaps hopelessness is the very soil that nourishes human hope; perhaps one could never find sense in life without first experiencing its absurdity.”
Vaclav Havel

That is really encouraging to me – ironically – because it suggests that depression and despair can give birth to hope. That to rebel against absurdity is to give life to hope. I can do that!

“I believe that imagination is stronger than knowledge. That myth is more potent than history. That dreams are more powerful than facts. That hope always triumphs over experience. That laughter is the only cure for grief. And I believe that love is stronger than death.”
Robert Fulghum

Lots of good stuff here. I especially like the proximity of imagination and hope. I believe that imagination is essential to hope. If you cannot imagine that anything will ever change, it is difficult, if not impossible, to do anything to effect change. Hopelessness is paralyzing.

“Hope lies in dreams, in imagination, and in the courage of those who dare to make dreams into reality.”
Jonas Salk

“It is above all by the imagination that we achieve perception and compassion and hope.”
Ursula K. Le Guin

OK – so if you feel like you have no hope or even the ability to hope, what then? I think it is a choice we make – whether to hope or not. I have some very distinct memories of being afraid to hope because I was even more afraid that I would be disappointed and that would be even worse than the hopelessness. that to me proves that hope is a choice i can make.

“Hope never abandons you, you abandon it.”
George Weinberg

“But what we call our despair is often only the painful eagerness of unfed hope.”
George Eliot

That’s a good phrase – “unfed hope” – because it implies that hope can or should be fed, nourished, nurtured. I think that is where the imagination comes in. We are all familiar with the anguish of asking the unanswerable question, “what if…?” and falling into the regrets of what might have been. I can intentionally turn that around and ask “what if-” things improve in my future. Imagine a better life. Create hope through the creative exercise of my mind.

Still feel unable to hope? Here is another quote that may help.

“Just as despair can come to one only from other human beings, hope, too, can be given to one only by other human beings.”
Elie Wiesel

Here is where we all come in as fellow-survivors, friends, supporters, and any other worthwhile relationship you can name. We can and should give one another hope. I have found much cause for hope by reading other’s posts and even more from the occasional PM that are addressed specifically to me. I “hope” that others have gained some hope from some of my contributions. And most of all, I sincerely HOPE that some of this makes sense to you.

Since this post was inspired by a Shakespeare quote, here’s another couple from the bard to end it:

“Our doubts are traitors And makes us lose the good we oft might win By fearing to attempt.” Shakespeare, Measure for Measure (Act I, scene iv)

"How poor are they that have not patience!
What wound did ever heal but by degrees?
Shakespeare, Othello (Act II, scene iii)

Keep at it. It can get better.
Lee

"I agree,the cycles get longer, it's been several months sinse I had one of those nights, where as there was a time that I had them once every couple of days, ---- but does it really matter if nothing ultimately changes?

Will I be doing exactly the same thing ten years, 20 years, 50 years from now, always falling into the same hole every now and again?"

Good question. In all likelihood, you'll probably experience "one of those nights" every now and again, but it doesn't mean that you haven't made progress in recovery. And you can't deny that you've made progress, as you've seen that the time in between these nights has lengthened considerably. Mostly likely, if you continue working at it, the time in between will get even longer and, when you do have one of those night, you'll most likely get out of them quicker and not be as negatively affected by them as you were in the past. The question I have for you Luke is, do you focus more upon the times when you're having one of those nights and less upon the lengthier times in between, thereby giving these nights a special power over you. If you are doing that, it's just a matter of changing your perspective on the recovery process from a focus on the relapses (which are bound to happen) to a focus on the progress you are making.

Casmir

Well thanks people.

@kieth, it's actually far less than a year, more like about three months. At the moment I just see it as huge amounts of work and struggle. i'm writing it because it needs! to be written, because nobody has said something similar, and because after spending five years working on recovery and! writing a thesis it'd be unthinkable to stop, but i can't perceive it as an achievement of my own at all. Maybe this will change when it's done I don't know.

@lee, those are some good quotes, I especially like those that attach scientific progress to imagination, sinse once again this proves that the hole science = cold, rational truth and emotion = irrationality and insicurity is a load of bunk. However, whatever my professional thoughts on those are, I really have difficulty with the concept of hope.

Hope is something that comes and goes, like sunlight. sometimes it's there, sometimes it's not. speculation about the future, or any expectation that the future will be better than the present is really something I find hugely shifts with my perceptions of the world, and can be as changeable as the weather. persistance, is more perminant. This is simply the stubborn recognition of continuance through whatever is ahead, irrispective of everything else, it's simply "I've started so i'll finish"

In the lotr book, Frodo is a great example of persistance. There are times he literally turns round to sam and says "I wonder how long it'll be before we're caught and everything is over" or "you go on hoping then mine's gone!" he's often indeed short, even irritable, yet despite a total lack of an ability to see that they will actually continue, and an increasing dissatisfaction with his circumstances which actually turns outward into anger at his one companion in some cases, he keeps going. This was why the wimpy, weak frodo in the films was something I really disliked, sinse in the books he never actually says "I can't do it sam!" or "it's too hard sam", however desparing he actually gets.

that is persistance. It's not pretty, it's not hopeful, it has no expectations about the future, it's simply the ability to stubbornly keep moving forward because the alternative is stopping.

it's why, though I was suicidal during my abuse, and I'm pretty certain if I'd had access to vallium or some other efficient method of killing myself I'd not be here now (I did nearly chuck myself off a cliff at one point). However, I've never! felt that way again, however bad recovery has been, and I doubt that I actually ever will simply because of persistance.

Persistance however isn't hope. I can't say "things will get better" or recognize what has improved, sinse I just don't trust those sorts of recognitions. Indeed rocco is probably right that I do focus on the significance of the negative a bit too much, sinse for me, there is only experience, no change.

i still have no idea what self isteme is, or what it is not to feel worthless or to recognize the feelings of others. I just devote my life to enlightened hedonism, and make the most of the good experiences, but in full knolidge they are! just experiences.

People have described me as having a sterriotypically artistic personality, and that's probably true.

Luke, if you dont' mind, I'd like to do a little "Socratic Dialogue" with you. What I hear you saying is that "Nothing has really changed for me and, therefore, things will always remain the same." If this is correct (and I don't want to put words in your mouth, so correct me if I'm wrong) I wonder if you might, for the sake of your recovery, consider what evidence you have that this thought is true, and then, if you wouldn't mind, also consider what evidence you have that this thought is false? Of course, I understand if you don't want to do this. After all, I'm not your therapist and this is not therapy, I just thought it would be helpful for you to weigh the evidence for and against the above statement.

Hi rocco.

I don't mind discussing this, indeed therapy pretty much stopped when the uni councelling service transferd me to relate who never got back to me at all, and that was two and a half years ago. the best "therapy" if you want to put it like that I've found has actually been! on this site, so ask away, if I didn't want to discuss this I wouldn't be here.

It is not the case that I believe "nothing" has changed, as I said, i can recognize the cycles get longer, thus the quantities of experience have changed.

What I am having trouble believing, is that the qualities! of experience change. It's as if I have two set substances, say coffee and milk, or rum and water.

Back in 2007 I was probably pouring out something that was about at an eigty twenty split. over the years I've varied the mixture, so now i'm somewhere around a 6040. However, what I am having trouble with is that I have all the same elements I started with. I've added nothing knew, I've taken away nothing old, I've just changed the proportions.

In recovery terms, all the bad stuff I started with is still there, it's just that there are far fewer times when I let it bother me.
What I'm questioning, is whether this! situation will ever change. whether in 10, 20, 50 years I'll be doing exactly the same thing, thinking the same thing, experiencing the same thing, just maybe in a different proportion.

I still have my low self isteme, my worthlessness, my genophobia, my relationship inabilities. None of those! things have qualatatively changed, whatever I've done about them.

By process of induction, I can infer that if something doesn't change over time, it is less likely to change in the future.

Induction of course is! a flawed process, I'm quite familiar with all the arguements against inductive reasoning, however to paraphrase Mr. hume, it's what we've got so we're stuck with it.

If nothing knew comes into the mix, or has come into the mix for five years, ----- why should I suppose something will in the future.

Of course, I'll try! as I've tried in the past. I took up new interests, I met knew people, I even got a new dog, and in a few months I'll be embarking on a new career path. However none of those changes actually changed the mix.

So, while I can believe that in the future there may be fewer times when my abuse and worthlessness and other bad feelings bother me, I can't believe they will vanish, and indeed with the way I've been showing unexpected anger and irritation recently, they planely haven't.

Hope this makes sense.

Glad you're okay with me asking you questions Luke, and yes your response is very clear to me.

Yes, your are right, something has changed since you began recovery. And you might want to admit that it has something to do with your "persistence", that the length of time in between "those nights" has expanded considerably. Not a small feat by anyones standards. You deserve the credit for this quantitative improvement in my opinion. And I think it's important for you to remember just how this came about, and what you did to make it come about, not that I think you're going to forget, as you've mentioned already that you'll continue to try to do new things as you've done in the past.

Okay Luke, since I got you slightly wrong, and I'm glad you corrected me, I'd like to offer a revised idea for your analysis. If I'm hearing you correctly, the thought you are expressing in this post is "Since the quality of my experience hasn't changed over the past 5 years since working my recovery, the quality of my experience will never change." Again, if this is wrong, please correct me.

However, if this is accurate, and this is the way you actually feel and think about your experience...I like to offer another question to you. My question is...What does it mean to you or about you that no matter what you try to do, the quality of your experience (i.e. low self-esteem, feelings of worthlessness, genophobia, and relationship inabilities) will never change?

the problem is rocco, that it still feels as if nothing is actually changing at all, and that is frustrating in the extreme, it feels more that I'm wasting my time treading water instead of actually trying to swim anywhere.

I began recovery when my feelings for ****, and my own reaction caused me to literally crash. I believed intrinsically that if i worked hard enough, put in the time I'd start to feel less worthless, for my genophobia to decrease, and for me to be able to do something about the hole relatinship thing that slammed me into that wall in the first place.

Yet, what has changed has been the background, the simptoms and not the desease. I've learnt to manage pain and stop the spread of infection, but I've not rid myself of the virus.

This isn't to say to wipe away my past or get to a point where it didn't happen, but get to a point where something essential about me that caused those affects was different.

When I was at boarding school, I was forced by what was literally emotional abuse in terms of fear and intimidation, to learn music. This learning was purely by wrote, and never by ear or training. I was gifted, and so that resulted in me being given more to learn, being punished when I didn't come up to expectations.

For years, I couldn't touch a musical instrument. At my parents' encouragement, I started learning the flute, but had panic attacks about practicing, if I didn't feel I'd learnt enough. My mum in fact who had very similar experiences at school never got over this, and hasn't touched an instrument, still less sung for 50 years, despite definitely having the ability.

This set me back with music a long way, indeed I slightly regret the fact that had I had normal vision and not gone to that school, (or indeed to the school where my abuse happened), I'd have probably been a chorista, and possibly a pretty major child musician.

Yet, over the next few years, I just got over this, and by the time I was 15, I had a grade 7 in recorder, (grade 8 is the highest qualification below degree level).

I now make music a major part of my life, indeed I'll be doing my grade 8 in voice next year.

I remember what happened at boarding school, remember being literally terrified whenever it got to Friday morning, sinse I was certain to be pretty badly castigated and yelled at that afternoon. My music teacher (also my class cteacher worst luck), was a dead ringer for Prof umbridge from harry potter, and I was her personal punchbag, I was often told I'd amount to nothing, that I'd go to prison and be a criminal, or other such chalmings, and music just seemed an opportunity for her to show how much she hated me, not the least because I also stood up to her fairly frequently.

Yet now, even though I remember that awful woman and how she made me terrified of anything to do with music, that fear, that affect is just no longer around.

This is what I was hoping with recovery, that if I put in the work, just like practicing with music, I'd lose the feeling that someone was pulling a knife on me everytime I here the s word, that I'd be able to actually understand the relationship thing, and that I'd stop having to tack the word "worthless" onto any description of myself.

Yet, these effects have not happened. I feel better much of the time, I no longer have night after night like the above, and I can mostly avoid the relationship thing by sticking to my resolution, ----- yet nothing has actually! changed.

This is what I'm questioning, if I'll always be the same, irrispective of being able to handle the effects better.

I've discussed the causes with counsellers and on this site, i know! where everything is from, yet I just don't see too much difference. All the best solutions I've found have been like my resolution, methods of minimizing the damage, not of actually stopping the attack at it's source.

And this is! frustrating, really! frustrating, especially when my methods of control fail and I have a bad night, or find myself flinching at something innocuous, or fail to maintain my resolution about relationships, or snap at someone unexpectedly for no reason.

Give myself credit? how the hell do I do that. You might as well ask me to give myself wings.

I can admit now that sinse I know it's just my damaged perceptions talking, I can ignore this evaluation of myself, work to achieve something for the pure experience, and the enjoyment, but actually dealing with those perceptions? ---- I have no idea how.

Luke,

I'm glad you brought up the success you had in diminishing the fear you had associated with learning a musical instrument. (I personally believe that you deserve credit for that success too, although I know you can't give yourself credit for that.) The reason why I'm glad you brought that up is because I think you can apply the same principle you applied in that experience to your current situation. I think that what will diminish the feeling of having a knife pulled on you every time the s word is mentioned is for you to desensitize yourself to the s word and everything related to it when it comes up in conversation.

This is what you did with music, right? You exposed yourself to the feared situation over and over again, until you no longer feared it. It's the same principle at work, but just with a different fear. You have success at this technique (what CBT therapists call exposure therapy) already. This suggestion answers your question (to a certain extent) about if you'll always be the same, but it will require your effort and presistence once again to change. Just know that you're not alone, as I'm also trying to encourage myself at this point to doing this same technique for the same difficulty (genophobia).

In terms of the worthlessness and low self-esteem issues you're talking about, do you think that these feelings (or beliefs) would get in the way of you desensitizing yourself to the subject of sex? Would you believe that you're not worth the effort? If so, remember how hard you've worked so far and what you've overcome to be here now talking with me about these issues. Your actions to help yourself demonstrated that your feelings of worthlessness aren't enought to get in the way of you acting like you are a valueable person (obtaining an education, pursuing singing, learning music, working your recovery, etc.). So, even though I know you feel the way you do, your actions tell a different story about yourself. After all, would you have gone through the effort of overcoming your fear of playing musical instruments, obtaining several university degrees, coming this far in recovery, and pursuing a musical career if you lived according to the belief that you were totally worthless?

Hi Rocco.

I attempted to discuss the hole genophobia issue in This topic

Broardly speaking though, one of the problem is I can't! desensatize myself to the hole thing without another person. Indeed, I think if I was ever in a relationship situation I probably could get around it, but just talking, reading descriptions, watching scenes in films etc still feels distant to me, it's not related to myself. I can view it with a kind of detached, horrified distaste, like a person using a fork to pick a slug out of their meel and drop it somewhere. It's disgusting, but at arms reach.

Anything closer, more personal would require, well another person, and that isn't really possible, because of the very phobia that is causing the problem in the first place, thus creating something of a catch 22.

As to "acting" as though I had self worth, that's a difficult one, sinse you are right to an extent. however, it's the experience! that is important to me, and why I do what I do, not the achievement.

I rarely get off stage and think "wow! that was a dam good performance" or write something and say "wow! I'm pleased with that" It has happened, but extremely rarely.

When I received first my degree, then my masters in Durham cathedral, I felt little to nothing. i don't even remember! my solo performance in front of 2000! people at Buxton opera house in 2007, I can remember waiting in the wings to go on, remember getting dressed, and remember afterwards, but the entire on stage performance is a total blank, probably a result that that was the point when I was just about to crash into recovery.

I do! remember my extremely professional performance last october at winchester cathedral, which was utterly terrifying given the caliber and reputation of the other singers in that concert, ---- but what I mostly remember is the experience itself, which is really why i sing in the first place, sinse when I stand up in front of an audience something very weerd happens.

Yet I hate! hereing my own voice, sinse i only ever hear the mistakes, and I hate! seeing my own face in the mirror, sinse I unversally see myself as ugly.

These are the things i have so much trouble changing, for all that I'm good at managing their effects.

Two suggestions Luke. One is to simply give yourself credit for your past, present, and future accomplishments, even if they are accomplishments in the sense of you enabling yourself to have a certain experience that is pleasurable, like you've alluded to. The other is to try something that I've just learned in my cognitive behavior approaches class. I've read your post about genophobia, and from it I can see that you'd rather go about desensitizing yourself on your own, at your own pace. Correct?

Well, let me start by first saying that I don't think you'll need someone else to start the desensitization process. In fact, I think it's best to take things gradually, as putting yourself in a physical situation with someone, even a helpful female friend, wouldn't address the problem as you've stated it, as the problem seems to be at this point a phobia of the word and subject coming up in conversation and other places in your environment, other than the actual act itself. With this being said, the technique I'm referring to is called "verbal exposure" and should be done alone. It is saying the word or words you have a phobia about over and over again (hundreds of times) to desenstize yourself to it. It may sound strange, or be awkward to do or even scary, but it's been shown to help with reducing fear and anxiety. Let me know what you think.