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#400738 - 06/18/12 05:54 AM Good things about being male?
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2129
Loc: durham, north england
I know that in the past I've often cursed the fact that I happened to be born male. My physical reactions, my attraction to girls, my libido, the social sterriotypes about males being dumb, stupid apes, even the choice of clothes available, I hate the fact that as a man there are no swimming costumes which cater to my intensive of being seen undressed, and the fact that you have so little choice of colour or style when it comes to formal dress, (everyone in black and white tuxes is just depressing!), and most of all the social rolls men are forced to play in initiating relationships, all are things i really hate.

In this thread however, i thought it might be fun to actually start listing good things about being male, either socially or in terms of experience.

First and formost, I think for me the main thing I like about being male is being a tenor. There are far more women who sing, and indeed many sopranos have voices that all sound the same. Being a tenor, --- what's more being a tenor with a more rounded, rich sound, I have a distinct advantage in that I'm quite rare and in demand, plus, it tends to be the tenors, as opposed to baritones or still less so bases, who get the most romantic music to sing.

usually I hate being male, but that is something I appreciate distinctly.

There is absolutely zero chance or expectation that I have to have children. I love animals, and get on very well with extremely young babes up to about 18 months, but children over that age, the sort of not quite people but not quite animals either I find I have a real dislike of. This isn't uniquely gender specific, I have several feamale friends who feel just the same way about kids as I do, but where as for them a dislike for children and desire not to have any is seen as unusual or odd, for me it's far more acceptable. Of course, there are men who love! children, indeed I have a best friend who's just had his first daughter and is absolutely besotted with her, yet sinse this isn't a desire or an appreciation I happen to have, the gender sterriotype that men do not do children serves me slightly here.

Funnily enough, I can't think of anything else. I can think of lots more things I dislike about being male, people's atitudes, dislike of empathy etc, but very little I actually like, sinse even things like promotion of independence outside the home and the ability to be perceived as having some sort of compitance are pretty much no longer exclusively male attributes in society, ---- indeed we're almost getting to the point now where any positive ideas of masculinity have been appropriated by women, while men are just left with the most negative of male sterriotypes and aren't permited to acquire any positive feminine characteristics such as compassion, honesty with emotions, verbal ability (just see the length of my posts), delight in a pleasant environment (people think I'm weerd when I explain how much i enjoyed choosing the carpits, curtans and other decorations for my flat, and still more when I do house work).

Then again I realize that on the traditional male/female scale I'm much closer to the feminine end of the spectrum, ---- probably around the %75 or %80 mark, (the feminine characteristics of dependence, shallowness, desire for admiration of others and and self obsession certainly aren't ones I would desire in myself), so it might be that I'm just not really able to connect with much that is positive about being a man anyway.

Robert Heinlein in fact once predicted that the future would contain four sexis, with male and female being separated from biological gender entirely, though whether this will happen I'm not sure. The ideal of course would be a permissive, gender equality centered soceity where characteristsic were not associated with any biological gender at all, ---- though i doubt very much that will actually happen, especially with the current extremely sexist focus we have, and the fact that while sexism against women though it still exists is being rapidly undermined, few people actually assume it's even possible! for men to be the victims of sexism at all.

Oh dear, this sort of went off the rails a bit I'm afraid, ---- but perhaps people have some thoughts?

Luke.

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#400745 - 06/18/12 10:03 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
Mountainous Buck Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/15/09
Posts: 1626
Loc: Minnesota
In Recovery I have learned to shed some of my negative self protecting ideas about myself, my gender, my sexuality and my relationships. (the 12 steps, meditation, sharing with other supportive males, and in particular doing an initiation weekend training by The Mankind Project have helped immensely.)

Before that work, I felt more like a boy than a man-

What is good about males? We have a strength and a depth that can serve and protect our loved ones, the vulnerable, and our communities and world.

We can work like crazy when the need calls. We mentor boys. We help model mature masculinity for women and girls. We do battle with the forces of bad-whether it is in our own recovery or in fulfilling our life's mission.

Those are attributes of mature men. There are, sadly many many examples of immature and destructive men who selfishly hurt, take, and destroy and are caught up in their own selves, wounds, and fear that they cannot contribute much.

I choose to keep in recovery and do my work so this world is a better place.
_________________________
We have to take responsibility for what we're not responsible for.

“It doesn't matter where you've come from,
It matters where you go" Frank Turner

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#400748 - 06/18/12 10:36 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
WriterKeith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 975
Loc: southern California
Luke and Mtn. Buck,
You have much more class than I. My list is fundamental, and it's enough for me.

1. I am not subject to makeup, fashion, or shopping, the Holy Trinity of femininity.
2. I can do and say dumb things once in a while and it seems expected and overlooked because, “That’s a man for ya.”
3. I can reserve the right to waste gas and time finding my destination instead of asking for directions.
4. I’ll never trip in platform shoes or high heels.
5. I won’t be carrying a growing child in my abdomen for 9 months.
6. I will never scream in pain while a human being finds its way out of my body.
7. No one else has to “do” my hair, help me with a zipper, or “get that last hook in the back.”
8. I have never known and never will know the pinch of a bra strap.
9. I can pack light for trips.
10. If I bleed once a month it’s because it involves a power tool and someone uttering the words, “Be careful.”

_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#400770 - 06/18/12 03:11 PM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
Mulligan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/15/10
Posts: 94
Loc: USA
I can piss standing up!
_________________________
Because I never give up the fight!

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#400773 - 06/18/12 03:38 PM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
WriterKeith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 975
Loc: southern California
LOL..

Mulligan, years ago my friends, a couple, visited the wife's elderly parents in Colorado for the holidays. The parents were driving the couple to dinner one night when the wife asked her dad where that cold air was coming from.
Silence.
She asked again.
Silence.
The elderly mother spoke up and said,"Well, Fred, tell them what you've done."
Silence.
"Tell them!"
The elderly father had drilled a hole in the floorboard of the car so he could use a funnel and piss while he's driving.

Ever since my friends told me about that, I've made certain my windshield washer fluid is kept FULL.

Ya just never know.
_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#400775 - 06/18/12 03:44 PM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1962
I thank God I am a male when I see the shorter bathroom line wends invariably to the men's room during intermission.
_________________________
Eirik



Click my pic to see why I'm here.

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#400776 - 06/18/12 03:50 PM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
Casmir213 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 851
Loc: Northeast, USA
You can sport a shaven head at any time without too much difficulty.

You can spit on the ground.

You don't have to shave your legs, bikini wax, pluck your eyebrows.

You can go topless without getting arrested.

It's expected that you not attend wedding or baby showers.
_________________________
I see recovery as a lifelong journey rather than a final destination, a journey, though, which can have many successes along the way.

WoR Alumnus - Hope Springs, OH, October 2009

My avatar is the farmhouse at the Hope Spring, OH WoR. It's a nice place.

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#400780 - 06/18/12 06:22 PM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2129
Loc: durham, north england
Hmmm, the odd thing is, as someone who did used to have a pony tale down to my waste, I actually vaguely understand if not eh hair obsession certainly need to deal with it, sinse like anything else if not taken care of it just gets vial, this isn't to say I was nuts about it, but I did have preferd brands of shampoo, conditioner etc, I had to brush it fairly regularly and sleep with it tied back.

Also, as to the fashion, children and shopping obsessions, I don't think those are a given for a woman, just the same way being obsessed with beer sport and pinups are obsessions for a man, though where as in society it's far more acceptable to be a woman and deviate from that sterriotype (I have many female friends who do), it's not that way if your male.

Btw, I agree about the dressing issue, however an amusing fact is on the occasions i have worn full victorian evening dress complete with a wastecoat front and tale coat, I quite understood why a victorian gentleman needed a vallet to dress him, sinse to hook the straps that hold the wastecoat front in place requires either another person, or being a contortionist!

I will admit that being able to pee in a bush is one that never occurred to me sinse it's not something I'm comfortable doing and have only done a couple of times in the past, though it is true, and certainly I remember when I was cycling in ireland I'd have had severe problems on a 50 mile cycle through the country in the extremely hot weather if I hadn't! been able to use a bush.

More seriously, on the hole strength and protectiveness issue, ---- well being a pacifist and visually impared that is an absolute none starter for me, indeed even if I weren't! visually impared I don't think i'd ever want to be in a position of having to use violence against another person, it's just not something I could conceive myself doing.

As to the hole "mature masculininity" thing, I'm not really sure what that means, sinse I just tend to treat everyone naturally as a reasonable person, not try to exemplify anything, just be myself and not much else, sinse that's all I am.
Indeed, most of the time I tend to think of "being male" about as important to me as "being five foot 9" it just isn't a fact of much significance, other than the significance society places upon it. That's also why I hate people saying sterriotypical stuff about men or women.

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#400785 - 06/18/12 07:42 PM . [Re: dark empathy]
Life's A Dream Offline


Registered: 08/25/11
Posts: 886
Loc: Bouvet Island
.


Edited by Life's A Dream (01/12/13 10:15 PM)

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#400815 - 06/18/12 11:43 PM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2129
Loc: durham, north england
Lifes a dream yes, I agree. The double standard that feminists create is ridiculous. on the one hand women are still in need of protection, on the other they're free to do their own thing, ---- on one occasion i had a feminist lecturer tell me in a down right aggressive and threatening way how women were emotionally not up to being threatened by men (quite ironic as she was threatening me at the time).

I also am appauled that if a woman leaves a man and is singer she's being a "strong woman" where as if a man leaves a woman he's being a "bad provider"

And don't get me started on gender rolls in initiating relationships, ---- god I hate those so much!

At some point I do feel I'd like to write up my own experiences, just to prove what a bunch of poor, defenseless teenaged girls did to me, but I'm so afraid that I'd just get angry while reading up any of the research for such a paper.

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#400845 - 06/19/12 05:45 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
Blessedcurse Offline


Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 98
This is a really interesting subject. I have huge gender issues and have had as far as I can remember, though as an adult I think it's not really about my biological sex, my body, but about the social expectations. I hate beeing seen as a man. I hate the limitations. But when I think of it, I suspect I would hate being a woman just as much. Either gender would make me erase a big part of me, the part that is not accepted in this gender.

So now I have an opressed female side (wich I think I would have even if not DID) who wants to wear nice clothes and shiny things, be taken care of, be seen as precious and not dangerous. And I hate this expectation that a man should be a complete idiot. It's the expectation of men that I was brought up with. A man couldn't be expected to take responsibility, to understand emotional things, to take care of house and children and so on. It was up to the women to take all responsibility and then try to make the men do at least a bit of their part. And then the men would drink beer and laugh and lie to the wives and call them the government.

And then in school little girls were expected to take responsibility for little boys. And then we have the issue of women and girls being blamed for sexual abuse committed by men - in life and in court there come questions of the woman wearing the wrong clothes or talking in the wrong way and then the assault is said to be her own fault. To me this sends the message that men are total retards that can't control their behaviour or their sexuality. Instead women are held responsible for both their own and the mens behaviour.

And then the issue of getting lots of positive remarks on things like doing the dishes or seeing that the flowers need watering in the workplace - do they think I'm a complete idiot just because I'm a man?

What puzzels me is that so many men keep this going by not taking responsibility, saying "you are better at doing housework" behave like big children calling their wives the government, expect to be excused for everything just by saying they're men and giggeling. And then the women giggle too and do the dishes/water the flowers and just say "men, they're like children"

How can anyone be happy like this? I just want to be a person, not a gender. I want to be a whole person. But about the good things about being male... well...

I can see a grown man from the inside. So now I know that it's all bullshit. I don't suddenly lose all sense of morality, empathy and self control when becoming a grown man (wich I thought would happen when I was a child sinse everything men did was excused with "he's a man*). So that's a good thing. I know I make personal choises, I'm not controlled by my penis or my testosteron. If I don't do the dishes it's because I choose not to. And if I see a woman in a short skirt i chose not to offend her. And so on.

That said, I don't share the view that these issues are in any way caused by the feminists. The feminists I met are all trying to get equality, the opportunity for every person to be them selves and not just a gender. But maybe the male perspective is lacking in the feminism discourse. Wich of course we men can not expect feminist women to take responisibility for. That is our responsibility and if we don't do it and bring our perspective to feminism, analyse and argue like feminists did for a century or so, we can't expect feminists to understand our perspective and our needs all by them selves and then just make it happen for us. It's not like female equal rights were given to women by the men with power so why should we expect that?

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#400848 - 06/19/12 06:31 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2129
Loc: durham, north england
Blessedcurse, i do agree with a lot of what you said, especially about male sterriotypes, however equally remember that the same does not apply to women.

if a man for instance doesn't do housework or behaves like an idiot it's because he's "being a man" because there is something intrinsically stupid and irrisponsible in society's perception of males as opposed to females, where as if a woman bucks the traditional gender trend by leaving her husband, not wanting children etc it's seen as positive. Thus, the female sterriotype is one women can put off and on, or even accept only those bits they like of it, (such as needing protection), while the male sterritoype is held up as the be all and end all.

As for feminists, well like any belief set there are different extremes, however I will say that after examining a lot of the literature in ethics, more reasonable feminist perspectives are not mentioned in the least.

I've mentioned before on this site one of my lecturers who, in what was supposed to be a none biased introduction to s/xual ethics began with the words "seventy percent of men would rape a woman if they could" then went on in that vane, heaping so much vitriol on men and never acknolidging that women could be abusers, (she also seemed to think that male victimization of men was extremely rare), that I literally had to stick on a set of headphones and drown her voice out to prevent me getting up and screaming!

this wasn't helped by the fact that she personally is one of the most intimidating, aggressive and unpleasant people imaginable, on one occasion she attempted to have the student philosophy society shut down for a perceived slight by one of my friends on her reputation, a situation which me, as president at that time had to deal with.

I wouldn't say that feminism doesn't recognize a male perspective, rather it is that the idea of sexism is one uniquely attached to what men do to women, and not the other way around, and society's sterriotypes, expectations and limitations of men are never recognized, ---- or indeed not in any of the literature I have seen.

This is why I considder myself not a feminist, but a gender equalitarian, and would love to write a paper on the subject, for all that I'll probably be thought of as some sort of evil person by feminists.

I also completely agree that this has nothing to do with biological gender at all. I'm not unhappy with my body, indeed accept for my voice I generally just think of my body as ungendered, sinse having a male body has little relevance to me, ---- yes, i have to shave my chin and stand up to pee, but neither of these matters, indeed the only physical characteristic I value which is in any sense attached to gender is my voice.

Yes, I'm attracted to women and not men, ---- but heck, so are not a few women!

It's society's perceptions of men, the rolls men are forced into and the way that so many unenlightened people react to men that I find I dislike too much.

I'm pretty sure that had I been female, and my abusers male, I'd have never been gang raped at school, --- sinse girls can't! do that to a boy, society says so, especially teenaged girls!

indeed, it was ironic how much my abusers made of themselves being girls, insisting that they didn't do certain jobs in lessons like cleaning up because they were girls, that male teachers who told them to do anything were being sexist, ---- they even managed to get me! yelled at for "touching girls iinappropriately" when I punched one of them in the chest, (given what she'd been doing at the time it was the easiest place to reach).

yes, poor defenseless teenaged girls need protection from the big bad men! ha ha!

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#400962 - 06/20/12 01:28 AM * [Re: dark empathy]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 2217
*


Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/28/13 05:57 PM)

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#400970 - 06/20/12 02:43 AM . [Re: Blessedcurse]
Life's A Dream Offline


Registered: 08/25/11
Posts: 886
Loc: Bouvet Island
.


Edited by Life's A Dream (01/12/13 10:15 PM)

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#400971 - 06/20/12 02:49 AM . [Re: Blessedcurse]
Life's A Dream Offline


Registered: 08/25/11
Posts: 886
Loc: Bouvet Island
.


Edited by Life's A Dream (01/12/13 10:15 PM)

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#400973 - 06/20/12 03:00 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
Blessedcurse Offline


Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 98
Oh, yes, there are plenty of unpleasant women out there. I just want to say that when I talk about feminism and me being feminist and my feminist friends I referr to gender equality feminism. To me the "all men are pigs"-people are usualy the same as "it's because he's a man"-people, only the first usually have had worse experiences of men doing stupid things and cannot just giggle about it anymore. Nothing feministic about that to me.

Its just like the kind of feminists that talk about the good women who are superior and should rule the world because then there would never be a war. Since women are naturally peaceful because they give birth to children. In my language this is called "uterus-feminism" wich is a bit of an insult. Nobody wants to be an uterus-feminist.

I've been thinking about this, about why being a male survivor is so difficult. I think actually its the patriarchy biting us in the ass. Patriarchy is build on the idea that men are superor over women. This comes with strong ideas of masculinity as being big, strong, resilient, in control. The celebrating of masculinity also inevitably comes with a devaluation of its thought opposit, the femininity, wich is then thought to be weakness, dependance and so on.

In a patriarchy, that celebrates "masculinity" and devalues "femininity" you are on top as long as you are masculine enough. It's not enough to be a man to be on top. You have to be masculine too. As soon as something happens that makes you not so strong, in control and so on, you fall from the top layer to the oppressed layer and there you are, as a man, being opressed by patriarchy.

Everything that is not "masculine" is subjected to ridicule in a patriarchy. For example being woman does not just mean you have a uterus, it supposedly also mean you are less logic and intelligent, can't do a job as good as a man, are a bit hysterical and so on.

And just like that, being victimized as a man and suffer from the consequenses does not just mean you are a crime victim. It also means you are not a real man, a hysterical sissy and so on. And if you seem very much like real man nobody believes the abuse really happend because you can't be masculine and a victim at the same time. And that, I think, makes it really hard to be a male survivor. But it's not because of the feminists, it's because of the patriarchal idea of male superiority, in wich men can only be strong and in control. Don't forget that the protection of the weaker women is part of the patriarchal concept. It is this concept that says men can only be perpetrators and women only victims. Not the feminists (except the uterus-feminists but I don't like them wink

So I guess my bottom line is that if we would just crush patriarchy and everybody could be themselves no matter what gender, then every man and woman who is a survivor could heal their wounds in their own way and at least not have to deal with gender issues and thoughts about not being a real victim because of being a boy/girl.

Oh, and I should add, I have been in other survivor forums that are none gender specific and there are most women. And these women strive with much the same issues as men do here, including gender issues, thougts that this would not have happend if I was a boy. And also they strive a lot with their own agressions, wich are not really part of the feminin gender role and therefore difficult for them to accept. And there are lots of people who have had female perpetrators.

I don't think the difference is that big between being a male survivor and a female really. Blaming the victim seems to be a general sulotion for perpetrators and relatives no matter the circumstanses. Is it a boy - he's just lucky he got laid. Is it a girl - she's a slut anyway who seduced her teacher to get better grades. Or they are both lying to get attention.

I think it's much the same actually. Maybe it's a bit harder for men to come out and tell about it but I don't know. Seems really hard for women as well.

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#400974 - 06/20/12 03:08 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
Blessedcurse Offline


Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 98
Life's a dream: We posted at the same time about the "all men are pigs/uterus-feminists" smile

Sorry, I don't understand a couple of things, it might be some nuance in the language that I don't get.

Why are you afraid of changing diapers and in wich way is this related to my post that you quoted before stating this?

And before, you wrote that you think you wouldn't have been gang raped (wich I'm really sorry happened to you) if you were a girl. How come? Lots of women get gang raped so why would it make a difference to be a girl?

And then there is this sentence "As for feminists, well like any belief set there are different extremes, however I will say that after examining a lot of the literature in ethics, more reasonable feminist perspectives are not mentioned in the least." Would you write this in a different way. It might be importent for the understanding of the whole argumentation but I don't understand. Do you mean that feminism is not coverd in litterature of ethics? Does this mean feminism is unethical? I don't get it, I think I might have misunderstood the whole sentence.

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#400988 - 06/20/12 05:57 AM . [Re: Blessedcurse]
Life's A Dream Offline


Registered: 08/25/11
Posts: 886
Loc: Bouvet Island
.


Edited by Life's A Dream (01/12/13 10:15 PM)

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#401006 - 06/20/12 07:53 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
Blessedcurse Offline


Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 98
Life's a dream: Oh, you deleted it. Well, I read it before so I'll answer but if you are not ok with me answering a deleted post just tell me and I'll delete my answer.

Sorry for mixing you up! I must have read too much too fast.

I think we're on the same page too. The more we have discussed the more it seems to me the difference is mostly about the words we use and wich associations we have to wich words.

As for the intrusive thoughts - I understand! I have them too. It's horrible, probably one reason why I don't want kids. I mean I don't feel any desire to hurt a child but I'm so afraid of suddenly feeling that desire that I'm afraid of even being close to children. I have changed dipers and in the middle of it suddenly felt like I was doing abuse or planning abuse - although I was absolutely not. So I really understand!

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#401007 - 06/20/12 07:58 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
Blessedcurse Offline


Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 98
Oh, and back to the topic, another good thing about being male:

I can express anger and agression without being called hysterical or mentally ill. Or being laughed at and patted on the head. It's a good feeling to be respected for my anger.

Also, I can act out my agression issues constructively in martial arts. Of course women do that too but the scene is totaly dominated by men and to me it would sort of ruin it to be constantly singled out as the woman, not being physically able to do some stuff and be visible like the only woman. I like to blend.

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#401111 - 06/21/12 02:34 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2129
Loc: durham, north england

blessedcurse, I don't disagree there are! reasonable feminists, I just find it difficult that in society sexism and sterriotypes about men aren't punished. If a woman says "all men are pigs" it's treated as amusing, and indeed in many quarters correct, if a man said "all women are pigs" he'd be sanctioned.

If a woman goes against traditional gender rolls,m disliking children, not having babies etc, she's seen as strong, but if she goes with them that's fine, where as for a man there is only one acceptable method. just look at clothing! a woman can dress in any amount of traditional masculine clothing she wants, but could a man be accepted wearing something feminine?

indeed, the idea of a man caring anything about his appearence is usually frowned upon, where as if a woman (as some friends of mine do), just wants to throw on a T shirt and some trousers that's fine!

it is this double standard I dislike so much, particularly sinse women can manipulate the sterritoypes by crying, saying they need protection etc, while men are forced into the roll of big dumb apes.

Yes, there are! people who will have ridiculously sexist views against women, and i dislike reading them as much as I dislike reading sexist views against men, but it seems where the one is recognized, the other isn't.

Heck, my mum, who is the most accepting person I can imagine occasionally comes out with statements like "well your bathroom smells great for a man's" or "you keep your place much cleaner than a single man is supposed to"

What? so if I'm a man I'm supposed to not know how to clean stuff? this is crazy, sinse in other respects my mum is pretty accepting of none traditional gender rolls.

I admit, my own experiences probably dont' despose me to take this sort of issue naturally, not the least because of how the gender rolls in courtships have destroyed my chances of ever having a relationship, but hat is one reason i want to write on this in the future.

@garry, I can't share the liking how men smell or any aesthetic appreciation of men sinse I'm not gay myself, (I have such an appreciation of women), but I really applaud your statement about "I'm me, I'm garry!"

I actually remember the first time I met a chap who was gay at uni, I had no idea he was at all until I met his bf. Even though I didn't have any strong netative feelings against gay men (or women for that matter), I had this sort of assumption that there would be something noticeable, something defignably different about someone who was gay that I could identify.

My friend john however was a very standard student in many ways, and indeed nothing like the sterriotype of a gay man at all. There was absolutely nothing in how he dressed or how he behaved, indeed he had a very sardonic and quite synical sense of humour, though was quite a decent chap underneith.

I'd actually spent three months going to the same tutorials, staying in the same colidge, and occasionally having random conversations in the bar or over coffee with him without realizing he was gay at all, ---- indeed on one occasion John, along with me and another friend had spent a long afternoon in my room trying to understand formal logic.
That was really what showed me that expecting sterriotypes to make any sort of difference at all to the way people are is generally absolutely rubbish!

I now don't expect! anyone to be a certain way, irrispective of gender, religion, orientation, race or whatever, and will pretty much behave the same way towards anybody. I just wish people could extend me the same curtacy.

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#401114 - 06/21/12 02:54 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
whome Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1736
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
Hey Guys,
Just my five cents,
I like what Writer Keith said.
And I add.
Most stupidity can be dismissed with a simple HOOO RAAA
Life and its workings are not as complicated as woman make it out to be.
Working on cars is more fun than cleaning the house.
Our pursuits are less complicated.

Martin

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#401119 - 06/21/12 07:45 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
SamV Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5953
Loc: Talladega, Alabama, USA
This is a great topic, this celebration of male-hood. We are encouraged to embrace our gender, to find ways to aggrandize the cracks, embolden the strengths and discover the wonder of male. To discuss this is balanced and can be rewarding.

We do not need however, to compare or contrast the good points against other groups nor generalize statements that encompass an entire group. Discussing other groups as a whole when describing negative aspects of some in the group should have the correct verbiage associated with our perspective. Please be careful when discussing other groups, or within any group certain aspects that can be considered negative or demeaning. Within each group, we should strive to find good, pleasant and beneficial terms to describe the whole and the parts of any group.

The necessity to at times describe an unpleasant aspect we have encountered is certainly welcomed here as long as it is brought up in specific reference to a personal event or perspective.

Sam
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MaleSurvivor Moderator Emeritus 2012 - 2014

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#401138 - 06/21/12 09:43 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2129
Loc: durham, north england
Whome, I'm a little confused on your "fixing cars is more pleasureable than cleaning the house" sinse I'd personally say the other way around, as I have no interest in the one, but an interest in doing the other well.

sasuva I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that any! kind of group assumption or identification is a bad and dangerous business.

I can appreciate that from a purely logical standpoint a basic, inductive series of reasons is usefull in the way we make informational judgements about the contents of the world, but applying this to types of human beeings as opposed to inanimate objects or circumstances is a different matter.

Saying that all the times you've eaten tuna fish you've become ill, so therefore all tuna fish makes you ill is a long way from saying that sinse you've encountered a large percentage of women who like children all must do.

This is the meaning of "prejudice" pre, justice, eg, assumption before the fact.

Still worse, are the forces that encourage people to behave! accordingt to the prior judgements of others simply based on the fact that they are a member of a group, --- -whenever I see adverts saying "all girls should buy this!" I want to spit.

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#401144 - 06/21/12 10:46 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
Blessedcurse Offline


Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 98
Originally Posted By: dark empathy
"
Still worse, are the forces that encourage people to behave! accordingt to the prior judgements of others simply based on the fact that they are a member of a group, --- -whenever I see adverts saying "all girls should buy this!" I want to spit.



Word! It makes me sick. And the world is so full of this shit. Commercials, tv-shows, everything. Telling us how to be due to gender. I hate it. Why can't everybody just be who they are and be as masculine and feminine as they happen to be?

Sasuva: Oh, did we do that? It was not my meaning. To me there is a big difference between generalising people and generalising ideas. For example, saying "all women loves shopping" is just not ok because then we talk about the women themselves. But saying "all feminists hate men", for example, I think is a different thing (though wrong) because then we talk about a set of opinions that we do or don't agree with, not the group of people. And having said this thing we can share our experiences of different types of feminists and maybe conclude there are many types, many different schools, some hate men and these schools we don't like but the other ones have good points. So to me it's ok to generalise about a set of opinions like "feminists" "socialists" and so on if you are open to get new information. Generalising "women" or "men" or "arabs" or whatever I think is a whole different thing. If I completely missed your point I apologise. I'm not entirely sure in what way we overgeneralised.

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#401145 - 06/21/12 10:59 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
SamV Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5953
Loc: Talladega, Alabama, USA
Call me Sam,

I love the tuna comment, lol. A friend was over last night and he has stated he hates cream cheese. My wife made an Alfredo and served it. He loved it and asked for more. Half way through the second dish, she told him it had two packages of cream cheese in it. He looked disgusted, then disappointed, then he ate the rest of it and licked the bowel clean!

Yep, folks don't like labels anymore than we do. First it is such an assumption, innocently made, then it gets bigger and meaner somehow, and ends up whispered on the lips of our children.., discouraging. I wonder if that is how 90 per cent of the male sexual abuse myths began!?!!

Thanks for the reply.

Sam
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MaleSurvivor Moderator Emeritus 2012 - 2014

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#401155 - 06/21/12 11:42 AM . [Re: Blessedcurse]
Life's A Dream Offline


Registered: 08/25/11
Posts: 886
Loc: Bouvet Island
.


Edited by Life's A Dream (01/12/13 09:54 PM)

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#401290 - 06/22/12 11:41 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2129
Loc: durham, north england
I love the word misandry! there's a really nice bit in Karl sagan's contact where the protagonist, a girl studdying physics in the 1950s says she hates men (understandable due to her experiences of being excluded from the scientific community pbecause of her gender at that time), then gets annoyed by the fact that misanthropy means hating people generally! laugh.

In fairness, it's not just gender where people are forced to obey lables. people from a given region, of a given class, even of a given skin colour or religious belief, though i think gender probably has the most to answer for in this respect, especially with how it's treated in the media and in advertizing, ---- indeed the women and shopping thing probably has as much to do with adverts that insist! women should! like shopping as any learnt behaviour.

When I studdied gender acquisition in psychology this was always something that i found utterly Bizarre, sinse psychologists would focus on characters in films or doing activities, and utterly ignore what people saw at every commercial break.

though in fairness, despite the medias images, one of the good! aspects of feminism is that there are people campaigning against this, the sad thing however is that this has only gone part of the way, and now women are more free to choose gender characteristics than men, ---- still worse, the female sterriotype hasn't been abandoned, now it's just optional, ---- eg, we admit women can be strong and independent, yet there are still women who manipulate their way through the world with emotional desplays and crying.

this is just! as sexist as claiming that something is "a man's job" and shouldn't nbe done by women.

I also pick on extreme feminists sinse in corporate institutions extreme feminists are worryingly common. For instance, there are women who will have a real go at someone (especially a man), for something as simple as holding a door open, ---- even though I myself would hold a door open for anyone walking behind me as a matter of common politeness, irrispective of gender.

Then as stated above is the fact that sexist statements about women are treated so differently to those about men.

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#401462 - 06/23/12 06:09 PM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
Blessedcurse Offline


Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 98
I've been thinking about this, and why we keep leaving the subject (what is good about being male). I think the question itself inevitably raises the issue what is male anyway. And as I see it, most of the good and bad things about being male or female, aside from the downright physical aspects, are about the societal view of gender. What we, as male, are forced to do and be because of the reactions of the people around us and because of conditioning from early childhood wich continues in media and in expectations from spouses, collegues and other people around us.

This compulsory repressing of the parts of us that, due to gender, are not accepted, I think is equal for both genders though what we repress are different.

It's true that women have gained more freedom in acting out their "masculine" sides than men have regarding to their "feminine" sides. I think this might be because the "masculine" side is connected to power, freedom, control and all of that wich gave women in large a huge incitament to fight for their right to be more "masculine". Of course, getting ones opinion heard, having ones own money and property, being treated as an important person in society and control ones own life was hughely important to women and still is, since the "feminine" traits are about being week, powerless and therefore in need to use manipulative tecniques to gain some control.

So now we have a position where we, as men, still are bound to the "masculinity" and don't have the freedom to cry, be emotional, be respected as victims, be caretakers of children, objectify ourselves, be needy and clingy when we are sad and all of that, without being frowned at or called sissys or even inside ourselves feel that we are making ourselves ridiculous.

This compulsory masculinity, in my experience, is kept up by both men and women. To be honest, I have met more disrespect for feminine behaviour in a man by men than by women, but then that might be due to the individuals I speak to, not a truth about men or women in general.

So how do we get out of this prison? Well... with women (much because of feminism through the ages) having taken on a lot of the "masculine" traits we have a shorter struggle. But of course there is a struggle of it. Just like women and feminists have struggled for their right to be themselves with both feminine and masculine traits, I guess men have to fight for the same. Not just accept the "boys don't cry" or "don't be a sissy", but react to it just as strongly as women react to "this is a mans work".

So, for example, in a movie where the male and female lead are portrayed in a very normative manner with the male being strong and fierce and the female week and emonional and in need of rescue, there will probably be criticism about the portrayal of the week woman who is not alowed to be a whole person, but no criticism about the portrayal of the man. Why?

Maybe because it's more upsetting for women to be portrayed (and conditioned to be) powerless, manipulative and in need of male rescue than it is for men to be portrayed (and conditioned to be) strong, powerful and always ready to rescue a beautiful woman. I don't know. But I'm pretty sure it's women who had raised their voices against the narrow role of womanhood, so I guess it's up to men to raise their voices against the narrow role of manhood (no, that means something else? Manliness I mean)

And this, in my opinion, is not something we can do by criticising women for rebelling against the limitations in being a woman in a patriarcal society. This we must do by rebelling ourselves against the limitations of being a man in a patriarchy. And I really do think that is easier for us now that the women already did most of their part. If there is no week, powerless crying women in need of rescue, why should we then still be forced to behave like the strong powerful rescuer? This would have been so much more difficult in the 50's

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