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#400845 - 06/19/12 05:45 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
Blessedcurse Offline


Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 93
This is a really interesting subject. I have huge gender issues and have had as far as I can remember, though as an adult I think it's not really about my biological sex, my body, but about the social expectations. I hate beeing seen as a man. I hate the limitations. But when I think of it, I suspect I would hate being a woman just as much. Either gender would make me erase a big part of me, the part that is not accepted in this gender.

So now I have an opressed female side (wich I think I would have even if not DID) who wants to wear nice clothes and shiny things, be taken care of, be seen as precious and not dangerous. And I hate this expectation that a man should be a complete idiot. It's the expectation of men that I was brought up with. A man couldn't be expected to take responsibility, to understand emotional things, to take care of house and children and so on. It was up to the women to take all responsibility and then try to make the men do at least a bit of their part. And then the men would drink beer and laugh and lie to the wives and call them the government.

And then in school little girls were expected to take responsibility for little boys. And then we have the issue of women and girls being blamed for sexual abuse committed by men - in life and in court there come questions of the woman wearing the wrong clothes or talking in the wrong way and then the assault is said to be her own fault. To me this sends the message that men are total retards that can't control their behaviour or their sexuality. Instead women are held responsible for both their own and the mens behaviour.

And then the issue of getting lots of positive remarks on things like doing the dishes or seeing that the flowers need watering in the workplace - do they think I'm a complete idiot just because I'm a man?

What puzzels me is that so many men keep this going by not taking responsibility, saying "you are better at doing housework" behave like big children calling their wives the government, expect to be excused for everything just by saying they're men and giggeling. And then the women giggle too and do the dishes/water the flowers and just say "men, they're like children"

How can anyone be happy like this? I just want to be a person, not a gender. I want to be a whole person. But about the good things about being male... well...

I can see a grown man from the inside. So now I know that it's all bullshit. I don't suddenly lose all sense of morality, empathy and self control when becoming a grown man (wich I thought would happen when I was a child sinse everything men did was excused with "he's a man*). So that's a good thing. I know I make personal choises, I'm not controlled by my penis or my testosteron. If I don't do the dishes it's because I choose not to. And if I see a woman in a short skirt i chose not to offend her. And so on.

That said, I don't share the view that these issues are in any way caused by the feminists. The feminists I met are all trying to get equality, the opportunity for every person to be them selves and not just a gender. But maybe the male perspective is lacking in the feminism discourse. Wich of course we men can not expect feminist women to take responisibility for. That is our responsibility and if we don't do it and bring our perspective to feminism, analyse and argue like feminists did for a century or so, we can't expect feminists to understand our perspective and our needs all by them selves and then just make it happen for us. It's not like female equal rights were given to women by the men with power so why should we expect that?

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#400848 - 06/19/12 06:31 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1871
Loc: durham, north england
Blessedcurse, i do agree with a lot of what you said, especially about male sterriotypes, however equally remember that the same does not apply to women.

if a man for instance doesn't do housework or behaves like an idiot it's because he's "being a man" because there is something intrinsically stupid and irrisponsible in society's perception of males as opposed to females, where as if a woman bucks the traditional gender trend by leaving her husband, not wanting children etc it's seen as positive. Thus, the female sterriotype is one women can put off and on, or even accept only those bits they like of it, (such as needing protection), while the male sterritoype is held up as the be all and end all.

As for feminists, well like any belief set there are different extremes, however I will say that after examining a lot of the literature in ethics, more reasonable feminist perspectives are not mentioned in the least.

I've mentioned before on this site one of my lecturers who, in what was supposed to be a none biased introduction to s/xual ethics began with the words "seventy percent of men would rape a woman if they could" then went on in that vane, heaping so much vitriol on men and never acknolidging that women could be abusers, (she also seemed to think that male victimization of men was extremely rare), that I literally had to stick on a set of headphones and drown her voice out to prevent me getting up and screaming!

this wasn't helped by the fact that she personally is one of the most intimidating, aggressive and unpleasant people imaginable, on one occasion she attempted to have the student philosophy society shut down for a perceived slight by one of my friends on her reputation, a situation which me, as president at that time had to deal with.

I wouldn't say that feminism doesn't recognize a male perspective, rather it is that the idea of sexism is one uniquely attached to what men do to women, and not the other way around, and society's sterriotypes, expectations and limitations of men are never recognized, ---- or indeed not in any of the literature I have seen.

This is why I considder myself not a feminist, but a gender equalitarian, and would love to write a paper on the subject, for all that I'll probably be thought of as some sort of evil person by feminists.

I also completely agree that this has nothing to do with biological gender at all. I'm not unhappy with my body, indeed accept for my voice I generally just think of my body as ungendered, sinse having a male body has little relevance to me, ---- yes, i have to shave my chin and stand up to pee, but neither of these matters, indeed the only physical characteristic I value which is in any sense attached to gender is my voice.

Yes, I'm attracted to women and not men, ---- but heck, so are not a few women!

It's society's perceptions of men, the rolls men are forced into and the way that so many unenlightened people react to men that I find I dislike too much.

I'm pretty sure that had I been female, and my abusers male, I'd have never been gang raped at school, --- sinse girls can't! do that to a boy, society says so, especially teenaged girls!

indeed, it was ironic how much my abusers made of themselves being girls, insisting that they didn't do certain jobs in lessons like cleaning up because they were girls, that male teachers who told them to do anything were being sexist, ---- they even managed to get me! yelled at for "touching girls iinappropriately" when I punched one of them in the chest, (given what she'd been doing at the time it was the easiest place to reach).

yes, poor defenseless teenaged girls need protection from the big bad men! ha ha!

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#400962 - 06/20/12 01:28 AM * [Re: dark empathy]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 2217
*


Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/28/13 05:57 PM)

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#400970 - 06/20/12 02:43 AM . [Re: Blessedcurse]
Life's A Dream Offline


Registered: 08/25/11
Posts: 886
Loc: Bouvet Island
.


Edited by Life's A Dream (01/12/13 10:15 PM)

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#400971 - 06/20/12 02:49 AM . [Re: Blessedcurse]
Life's A Dream Offline


Registered: 08/25/11
Posts: 886
Loc: Bouvet Island
.


Edited by Life's A Dream (01/12/13 10:15 PM)

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#400973 - 06/20/12 03:00 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
Blessedcurse Offline


Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 93
Oh, yes, there are plenty of unpleasant women out there. I just want to say that when I talk about feminism and me being feminist and my feminist friends I referr to gender equality feminism. To me the "all men are pigs"-people are usualy the same as "it's because he's a man"-people, only the first usually have had worse experiences of men doing stupid things and cannot just giggle about it anymore. Nothing feministic about that to me.

Its just like the kind of feminists that talk about the good women who are superior and should rule the world because then there would never be a war. Since women are naturally peaceful because they give birth to children. In my language this is called "uterus-feminism" wich is a bit of an insult. Nobody wants to be an uterus-feminist.

I've been thinking about this, about why being a male survivor is so difficult. I think actually its the patriarchy biting us in the ass. Patriarchy is build on the idea that men are superor over women. This comes with strong ideas of masculinity as being big, strong, resilient, in control. The celebrating of masculinity also inevitably comes with a devaluation of its thought opposit, the femininity, wich is then thought to be weakness, dependance and so on.

In a patriarchy, that celebrates "masculinity" and devalues "femininity" you are on top as long as you are masculine enough. It's not enough to be a man to be on top. You have to be masculine too. As soon as something happens that makes you not so strong, in control and so on, you fall from the top layer to the oppressed layer and there you are, as a man, being opressed by patriarchy.

Everything that is not "masculine" is subjected to ridicule in a patriarchy. For example being woman does not just mean you have a uterus, it supposedly also mean you are less logic and intelligent, can't do a job as good as a man, are a bit hysterical and so on.

And just like that, being victimized as a man and suffer from the consequenses does not just mean you are a crime victim. It also means you are not a real man, a hysterical sissy and so on. And if you seem very much like real man nobody believes the abuse really happend because you can't be masculine and a victim at the same time. And that, I think, makes it really hard to be a male survivor. But it's not because of the feminists, it's because of the patriarchal idea of male superiority, in wich men can only be strong and in control. Don't forget that the protection of the weaker women is part of the patriarchal concept. It is this concept that says men can only be perpetrators and women only victims. Not the feminists (except the uterus-feminists but I don't like them wink

So I guess my bottom line is that if we would just crush patriarchy and everybody could be themselves no matter what gender, then every man and woman who is a survivor could heal their wounds in their own way and at least not have to deal with gender issues and thoughts about not being a real victim because of being a boy/girl.

Oh, and I should add, I have been in other survivor forums that are none gender specific and there are most women. And these women strive with much the same issues as men do here, including gender issues, thougts that this would not have happend if I was a boy. And also they strive a lot with their own agressions, wich are not really part of the feminin gender role and therefore difficult for them to accept. And there are lots of people who have had female perpetrators.

I don't think the difference is that big between being a male survivor and a female really. Blaming the victim seems to be a general sulotion for perpetrators and relatives no matter the circumstanses. Is it a boy - he's just lucky he got laid. Is it a girl - she's a slut anyway who seduced her teacher to get better grades. Or they are both lying to get attention.

I think it's much the same actually. Maybe it's a bit harder for men to come out and tell about it but I don't know. Seems really hard for women as well.

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#400974 - 06/20/12 03:08 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
Blessedcurse Offline


Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 93
Life's a dream: We posted at the same time about the "all men are pigs/uterus-feminists" smile

Sorry, I don't understand a couple of things, it might be some nuance in the language that I don't get.

Why are you afraid of changing diapers and in wich way is this related to my post that you quoted before stating this?

And before, you wrote that you think you wouldn't have been gang raped (wich I'm really sorry happened to you) if you were a girl. How come? Lots of women get gang raped so why would it make a difference to be a girl?

And then there is this sentence "As for feminists, well like any belief set there are different extremes, however I will say that after examining a lot of the literature in ethics, more reasonable feminist perspectives are not mentioned in the least." Would you write this in a different way. It might be importent for the understanding of the whole argumentation but I don't understand. Do you mean that feminism is not coverd in litterature of ethics? Does this mean feminism is unethical? I don't get it, I think I might have misunderstood the whole sentence.

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#400988 - 06/20/12 05:57 AM . [Re: Blessedcurse]
Life's A Dream Offline


Registered: 08/25/11
Posts: 886
Loc: Bouvet Island
.


Edited by Life's A Dream (01/12/13 10:15 PM)

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#401006 - 06/20/12 07:53 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
Blessedcurse Offline


Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 93
Life's a dream: Oh, you deleted it. Well, I read it before so I'll answer but if you are not ok with me answering a deleted post just tell me and I'll delete my answer.

Sorry for mixing you up! I must have read too much too fast.

I think we're on the same page too. The more we have discussed the more it seems to me the difference is mostly about the words we use and wich associations we have to wich words.

As for the intrusive thoughts - I understand! I have them too. It's horrible, probably one reason why I don't want kids. I mean I don't feel any desire to hurt a child but I'm so afraid of suddenly feeling that desire that I'm afraid of even being close to children. I have changed dipers and in the middle of it suddenly felt like I was doing abuse or planning abuse - although I was absolutely not. So I really understand!

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#401007 - 06/20/12 07:58 AM Re: Good things about being male? [Re: dark empathy]
Blessedcurse Offline


Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 93
Oh, and back to the topic, another good thing about being male:

I can express anger and agression without being called hysterical or mentally ill. Or being laughed at and patted on the head. It's a good feeling to be respected for my anger.

Also, I can act out my agression issues constructively in martial arts. Of course women do that too but the scene is totaly dominated by men and to me it would sort of ruin it to be constantly singled out as the woman, not being physically able to do some stuff and be visible like the only woman. I like to blend.

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