Newest Members
Green_Lantern, Safe11ride, WillWins, neophiliac, Jerone
12118 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
archie chisholm (61), Carlos418 (37), courtney (52), kurotake (55), lostsoul (63), Lukesgirl (28), michael banks (2014), Steffon (42)
Who's Online
3 registered (pufferfish, thevision, 1 invisible), 65 Guests and 5 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12118 Members
73 Forums
62516 Topics
438105 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
#398680 - 05/29/12 11:51 AM self condemnation
nebius Offline


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 6
my husband came home and said he had an affair. As details about the situation came out it just didn't seem to add up. For example, this woman had done some measure of stalking-asked around for his contact information, befriended some of our extended family members, began visiting some of our regulare places of interest, and had a great interest in our eldest daughter. (all this things occured before he knew of her). She engaged him under the pretense of seeking his advise for some of her family health problems. He says it went from seemingly innocent conversation to coming onto him physically. The actual act was sadistic in nature and he says was very painful for him. He can't remember much of it but felt like he was being controlled and manipulated. We started going to a therapist who after hearing the story says he was not in an affair of any sort but fell victim to a sexual predatore who beguilled and abused him. When he told her not to contact him again she laughed and said that was fun. It's been months since this happened and he feals suicidal at times, confused and angry. How does this happen to an adult man? I am a little confused myself-is it just a cover?

Top
#398689 - 05/29/12 01:01 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
Gretta Offline


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 239
I am sorry and this is going to sound harsh but doesn't it sound like he doesn't want to take responsibility for his own actions?

I believe looking back on the act can be painful especially when he realizes how much he has hurt someone he loved and I would never doubt if he is suicidal but I do find it hard to believe that he had no control over saying yes or no. My mom always said it takes 2 to tango. (cheesey but true)

You know him better than anyone and when she first started soliciting his advice did he tell you? If not then I would ask why?

What I love about your husband is that HE CAME HOME AND TOLD YOU! He gets big big points for doing that. He was brave for doing so.

Oh yeah and I totally believe she stalked him, that happens more than you know. There are some desperate women out there. It never ceases to amaze me. I am sorry for you pain and I wish you and Your husband a steady recovery.

Top
#398690 - 05/29/12 01:08 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: Gretta]
nebius Offline


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 6
yes he did tell me -he is a medical provider so it wasn't anything that I thought anything weird, alot of people ask him for advice. their wasn't any solicitations.

Top
#398706 - 05/29/12 04:14 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
whome Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1734
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
HI Nebius.

I am so sorry that this happened to your family. This is becoming a huge problem today, woman are stalking men, and In some cases drugging them and raping them.
Your Husband has been through something that the world denies can happen, but it is happening more and more.

There is a section on the Site for men assaulted as adults, Please encourage your husband to join us and post in that section. Your husband was raped plain and simple, no doubt. Please encourage him to join us.

Heal well
Martin
_________________________
Matrix Men South Africa
Survivors Supporting Each other
Matrix Men Blog

Top
#398727 - 05/29/12 07:56 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
Gretta Offline


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 239
Martin with all due respect how can you say that without further information? Isn't it equally as possible that he cheated, can't live with himself and comes forward with fuzzy details because he doesn't want to discuss. Wouldn't her husband remember being drugged? I am not saying men can't be raped.


Edited by Gretta (05/29/12 08:03 PM)

Top
#398728 - 05/29/12 08:30 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: Gretta]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1866
Loc: durham, north england
Originally Posted By: Gretta
Martin with all due respect how can you say that without further information? Isn't it equally as possible that he cheated, can't live with himself and comes forward with fuzzy details because he doesn't want to discuss. Wouldn't her husband remember being drugged? I am not saying men can't be raped.


Greta, might I suggest you reread the front of this site, considder how many men here have been s/xually abused by women, and rethink the above statement of blaime.

If a married woman had endured similar abuse from a man, I don't think "it takes two to tango" would be your response. I find your assumption that just because he is an adult man he cannot be a victim, and that a woman cannot be an abuser quite distasteful, particularly given the purpose of this site.

nebulous, I'm extremely sorry to here what happened to your husband, and I feel quite angry that this woman could get away with what she did.

Unfortunately, whome is right however, and there really isn't an easy way of dealing with this, other than trying to recognize what happened and work through it. Maybe you should suggest to your husband to try this site, sinse it is a great place for male survivers of sa to start healing.

Top
#398734 - 05/29/12 09:37 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
mmfan Offline


Registered: 09/25/11
Posts: 114
Originally Posted By: nebius
How does this happen to an adult man?


Manipulation, coercion, confusion, surprise, physical force, drugs, freeze response from prior trauma that incapacitates him from saying "no"....or some or all of above.

The idea of men as invincible and ever-able to defend themselves is a myth. Even the strongest, "manliest" man can be a victim of rape.

He has a helping nature and this woman played on his compassion. She had power because of involvement with your child. She insinuated herself into your lives. Yes she stalked him. That alone is very powerful evidence.

All too often the victim is disbelieved. If a trained and skilled therapist is calling this assault/rape then that is very telling. The word you used, "sadistic" is also very telling.

His reaction now (suicidal) also speaks volumes. As you said it doesn't add up to the usual "affair." I'm guessing he used that word because he was struggling to label it as something, anything that he could wrap his mind around.

You are doing the right thing seeking support and answers, and standing by him. Believing him, treating him gently and with dignity is helpful from a healing standpoint. "I believe you, it's not your fault, I will see you through this" are among helpful things for a survivor to hear.

The phrase "It takes 2 to tango" categorically does NOT apply to non-consensual sex, aka RAPE.


Edited by mmfan (05/29/12 09:45 PM)

Top
#398743 - 05/29/12 10:13 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: dark empathy]
Gretta Offline


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 239
Dark empathy, your are wrong if a married woman went outside of her relationship and had an affair she should be held responsible for her actions. He ADMITS having an affair, unpleasant and ultimately unfulfilling but non the less an affair, as it seems but he engaged. It's hysterical that you and others have marked it as rape when he already admits to consent. He's a medical provider so one would have to assume he is smart enough to know the difference between being raped and having an affair. It takes time and many lies to have an affair.

I only asked the question, how Martin came to the very quick decision without more information?

I was only asking the question isn't it equally as possible he engaged and is struggling with sharing the details with his wife. It's funny NO ONE answered the question because the answer is yes. That happens as often as any other scenario (probably more but unwilling to debate) and the victim is a trusting wife who wants to believe the best in her husband and ultimately is left misidentifying the situation and the root issue is never addressed.

I am not insulting any of the men who were raped as adults or denying an adult man can be raped. But I also don't think you should insult them when a consenting male adult has bad sex and admits it to his wife. You are not helping him. He may be a victim in another way that needs help.

As for a qualified therapist we know that many or not and my only suggestion was she talk to the therapist herself.



Edited by Gretta (05/29/12 10:20 PM)

Top
#398750 - 05/29/12 10:24 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1866
Loc: durham, north england
Mmmm, greta, I think the phhrase "s/xual predator" and the fact that nebuous is on this site at all pretty much speaks for the concent issue.
Heck, even though what happened to me was in the context of insults and humiliation, I never classed it as rape myself until my mum unexpectedly used the word several years later, simply because the deffinitions of rape are just not adequate when applied to what a woman does to a man, and our society is too full of the belief that it is impossible for a man to be a victim.


Edited by dark empathy (05/29/12 10:36 PM)

Top
#398775 - 05/30/12 04:55 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
Gretta Offline


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 239
Dark Empathy how old were you? And at what point as an ADULT not a child are you responsible for your own actions? Thats my question. I am talking about personal responsibility. Does that exist anymore? There are plenty of adults who consent to have sex and regret it, does that make it rape? I think they have issues that need to be dealt with yes, but is it rape no.

I am being very clear here I am NOT talking about a child here. This obviously does not apply to them.

Overall I find it frustrating that a seemingly smart functioning male (medical provider) gets into a relationship outside his marriage so mentally deep that a woman can mind power him into having sex with him? A relationship with my child or not I know the line that I am not crossing it. I am trying to wrap my brain around it. The affair was far before the physical act. I am not exactly sure what he consented to but it sounds like it was terrible and the combination of that and cheating would make someone suicidal. My sympathy goes out to them honestly, I am not diminishing their pain, because affairs are painful where everyone is concerned. My girls here can attest to it and have. I am just not buying it was against his will, and I guess we will need to agree to disagree.

I commend his wife and every other wife who as come to this site looking for help. I do not say these things to upset her but to be honest. Either road is long one, my husband cheated and underneath it all was years of horrible CSA. Either way she's in good company.




Edited by Gretta (05/30/12 05:09 AM)

Top
#398778 - 05/30/12 05:07 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
whome Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1734
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
Hi All

Again when I posted this reply I had a feeling that we had another one of "THOSE TOPICS" Gretta I understand your reluctance, this stems from all that you have endured, but we need to ALL remain open minded here.
Please lets not turn this into a bun fight.
The reason I posted my reply was because of the quote below

Quote:
when he told her not to contact him again she laughed and said that was fun. It's been months since this happened and he feals suicidal at times, confused and angry. How does this happen to an adult man? I am a little confused myself-is it just a cover?


A man that has had an affair Does NOT become suicidal, this is not in his nature. If he chooses to have an affair, then the man would start with lies and deception rather than the extreme shame that this man displays.

AGAIN I STRESS, ALL THAT COME HERE ARE HURTING AND LOOKING FOR ANSWERS, LETS NOT LET THIS TOPIC DECAY INTO A BUN FIGHT.

Nebius, I feel that your husband is genuine, I have seen many stories, this one just touches me as genuine.
Support him, but mainly Support yourself.

Heal well
Martin
_________________________
Matrix Men South Africa
Survivors Supporting Each other
Matrix Men Blog

Top
#398812 - 05/30/12 08:42 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
Esposa Offline
F&F Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 636
Loc: NJ
A man that has an affair does not become suicidal??

I am sorry. That isn't really true. Before I continue, let me state that I am in no way in a position to make any determination about Nebius' situation. It sucks.

But hang on... Nebius could be describing my husband's affair. She laughed and said it was fun?? Let's be honest, any woman who is knowingly sleeping with a married man is a little bit NOT NORMAL. And a man who wakes up one day and realizes that a situation is far out of control and is remorseful and repentant for what has happened, could be suicidal. Especially when they WAKE UP and face the wasteland of their post-affair lives.

Top
#398813 - 05/30/12 08:48 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: whome]
Gretta Offline


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 239


Quote:
A man that has had an affair Does NOT become suicidal, this is not in his nature. If he chooses to have an affair, then the man would start with lies and deception rather than the extreme shame that this man

Nebius, I feel that your husband is genuine, I have seen many stories, this one just touches me as genuine.
Support him, but mainly Support yourself.


The first statement is completely untrue, men who have affairs can and have become suicidal. That extreme shame is terrible. These sweeping all or nothing statements don't make sense to me.

However the second statement I believe to be true and I told her in my first post. Somehow assuming he had an affair vs. Raped is not meant to start a fight or hurt anyone in anyway. I believe he is 100% sincere.

Having an affair is more intentional and obviously more hurtful to wife and the overall relationship. Rape implies zero responsibility over the fact that it happened. I find that Doubtful inthis situation. When a woman comes here and asks the question I answer her as honestly as possible. I don't do it to hurt her I do it to give her the truth.

I would still like an answer on personal responsibility.

Top
#398825 - 05/30/12 10:14 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
Gretta Offline


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 239
Martin I first want to say that I respect your opinion but I hope you see mine. In the past when I was in the depths of my despair you told me some things that were hard to hear. I appreciated it. When the board went silent on a question I would ask, you came forward and told me the cold hard truth. I wasn't offended I appreciated it.

I spent many many nights pouring over this board looking for answers, my husband suicidal, drinking and denying it. It was horrible. You gave me answers that were pretty.

I think survivors have a huge fear of not being believed so they go in the other direction without fully thinking it through. It's what they would have wanted for themselves.

This man is not a child he is an adult, and ironically I believe him. I believe he had an affair that went really bad and he needs major help. Jumping over the facts and calling rape is a serious accusation.

Top
#398826 - 05/30/12 10:21 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
nebius Offline


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 6
Thanks for all the discussion. I know alot of details are missing here. It is true an affair takes time and lies-put this into perspective he knew her for about 16 hours of his life. He never said it was mutual, in the world we live in, two adults no matter what the situation must be adultery-thats at least what we both thought. We bagan going to a therapist who has 32 yrs of experience to hash out our new "marital problems". Everything was presented under the pretense of adultery but when it all came out we were shocked to hear words like rape-sexual predator-sadism-beguilement etc... It is not until we had clarity on the issue and I found this website that we are finally starting to heal. Husband is now starting to show signs of post traumatic stress and is taking meds. Yes, he is very smart and is very compassionate it was all used against him. I am not interested in seeing the best in my husband -I'm only interested in finding out the truth. He has been reading these blogs and is considering joining-he is shocked to hear he is not the only one.

Top
#398828 - 05/30/12 10:42 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
bodyguard8367 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1159
Loc: ""
""


Edited by bodyguard8367 (02/26/14 06:07 PM)
Edit Reason: SILENCED

Top
#398881 - 05/30/12 03:56 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
whome Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1734
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
We seem to be mixing up CSA and ASA. laugh
Remember that there is a huge difference between the two With Adult Sexual assault, I don't see suicidal tendencies coming in. It takes a calculating devious man to initiate an affair. If he then gets into a situation where he might get caught with his pants down, he will start with the lies and accusations.
When an adult male is RAPED, and it does happen, he then gets these feelings. It is a serious serious happening.

Now on the other hand, a CSA victim already often has suicidal tendencies. A CSA victim has affairs as a "drug" to deal with the pains of his past. when he is caught then an entire life of lies starts to unravel.

So there are huge differences between the two.
We cannot in this day and age, write off the fact that ADULT men are raped in many different ways, and I mean raped by men and woman.

WE really need to become a little more tolerant and accepting that these things are possible.
Unfortunately Rape is no longer a gender based crime. I see this every day in Africa.

Another important factor is Nebius's gut feel about her husband. CSA victims Are generally liars, 'normal' men don't live like this so there would be a distinct difference in behaviour.
Soooo essentially Nebius would be the only one that could judge this.

I love that this is now a debate, and Nebius, we are doing the one thing I hate, hijacking your post. I am really sorry, but I hope that you have learnt something here.
I also hope that your husband will join this site, I know it will be good for him.

Heal Well
Martin
_________________________
Matrix Men South Africa
Survivors Supporting Each other
Matrix Men Blog

Top
#398886 - 05/30/12 04:11 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
nebius Offline


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 6
there is no past of csa and since coming out with all the gruesome details about this situation he revealed lies from his past... he told me he went to the movies one night when we were dating with a bunch of the guys and didn't tell me about it. That was as dark as his past got. So this whole thing was a total shock definatley out of his character.

Top
#398897 - 05/30/12 06:09 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
lucylives Offline


Registered: 04/07/11
Posts: 357
Hello all,

I have to say I agree with gretta. It sounds like he engaged and things got REALLY crazy. How is it that he was alone with this woman to have something like this happen?

Was he raped? Quite possibly? But what was he doing alone with a women who isn't his wife in the first place.

As for men becoming suicidal after the affairs are out....absolutel possible. I see it with my husband. the shame is unbearable. Now that the truth is out about his activities, he has been very much suicidal.

Top
#398899 - 05/30/12 06:29 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: mmfan]
GBWU Offline


Registered: 04/21/12
Posts: 17
mmfan

Could not have said it better. Well done - striking down all those ridiculous myths that I once believed myself until it happened to my husband.

Top
#398901 - 05/30/12 06:38 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
nebius Offline


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 6
gbwu is it possible to share what happened?

Top
#398903 - 05/30/12 06:48 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
GBWU Offline


Registered: 04/21/12
Posts: 17
Nebius,

I sent you PM.

Top
#398907 - 05/30/12 08:01 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
herowannabe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/01/11
Posts: 386
Loc: USA
Quote:
I am not insulting any of the men who were raped as adults or denying an adult man can be raped. But I also don't think you should insult them when a consenting male adult has bad sex and admits it to his wife. You are not helping him. He may be a victim in another way that needs help.


Faaaar from an expert on the topic, I have weighed each post in this thread and find Getta's train of thought most logical in this instance.

No one here believes male rape doesn't happen. There are horrid stories of male rape- all true and all very much a crime. My own survivor/husband was very much raped by male pedophiles as a teenager- a child.

However, in the case of an adult of legal age, unless the adult was rendered mentally or physically incapacitated (drugs/alcohol, roped and tied/restrained, physically assaulted, threatened, etc.), I have a very hard time subscribing to the rape theory. I am open to education in this area as I certainly may be dead wrong, but I don't know if a court of law would even view a sexual act between two adults as rape in the absence of some kind of control over the victim.

The therapist's pronouncement of rape, on paper, doesn't convince me. I'm jaded, but we all know there are less than competent therapists running amuck out there. Most of us have been strung along by a therapist or two or three who prefer to keep us as victims in order to keep us in counseling and writing out those checks!

Nebius, will you please tell us why the counselor calls this rape?

Not only do I not want to see Nebius provided with poor support, but our MS community runs a grave risk in painting situations involving adults as "rape" with so few specifics. To do so puts everyone involved in danger- including this doctor!

For example, it appears the doctor is in private practice. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't physicians schooled in "bed side manner" so they are better-able to provide compassionate care without crossing legal and ethical lines with patients? Isn't the medical code to "Do No Harm"? Do they not answer to a state medical board?

Since this twisted woman came to him seeking/under the guise of seeking professional help, could it not be said that he used his position as a physician to gain her trust and after doing so raped her? I'm NOT saying that's what happened, nor do I even suspect it, but only wish to illustrate how dangerous it is to "assume". With so little information, not a one of us can begin to ascertain what is and what isn't. Imagine if the wrong party is being called a rapist? Just sayin'.

This community has an obligation to help eductate the general public about sexual crimes against males. In labeling this act as rape without having more information turns us into fanatics that the public will quickly dismiss.

I want to be here on MS to help men who have suffered true rape. I want to support the F&F who are suffering through the fall-out of that abuse. I don't want to be diluting the very serious crime of male rape. I also don't want to do further damage to a victim by not believing their story.

Again, Nebius, can you provide more information? Will legal action be taken against this woman? As supporters, we so greatly want to support you as you support your beloved. But as victims of our survivors' acting in/acting out, we don't want to support you in the wrong way.

Hope that makes sense?

Godspeed, All-
herowannabe
_________________________


For I know the plans I have made for you. Plans to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11


Top
#398920 - 05/30/12 11:00 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: GBWU]
mmfan Offline


Registered: 09/25/11
Posts: 114
Thanks for the support GBWU. Sorry to hear what happened to your husband. frown

OP I'm glad your husband is getting support and validation from safe people. PTSD is very real and horrific. The good news is that he can and will recover and you two will get your lives back, you just have to hang on. My thoughts are with you both.

Top
#398932 - 05/31/12 01:31 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: nebius
The actual act was sadistic in nature and he says was very painful for him. He can't remember much of it but felt like he was being controlled and manipulated. We started going to a therapist who after hearing the story says he was not in an affair of any sort but fell victim to a sexual predatore who beguilled and abused him. When he told her not to contact him again she laughed and said that was fun. It's been months since this happened and he feals suicidal at times, confused and angry. How does this happen to an adult man? I am a little confused myself-is it just a cover?


Only you can decide whether it's a cover or not.

I can understand how he wold say it was an affair. I was raped as a married man and there was a lot of manipulation involved. I was raped by a male nurse's assistant in a hospital bed while hooked up to a ventilator, and he threatened to turn my vent off and end my life. It felt like I was doing sexual acts with him, it probably looked that way, and I beat myself up for a long time for being unfaithful to my wife. I know most of the world doesn't even know that grown men can be raped, but it doesn't stop that from being true. 1 in 33 men is raped as an adult. Women are certainly capable of doing this. I don't know how she conned and manipulated him, but if, like you said, this is out of his character then I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. If you don't, he will probably shut down and might not feel like it's safe to talk about the assault with you.

I love my wife and would never cheat on her, so I don't have any firsthand experience with infidelity, but when I was hiding my assault from my wife, I said some pretty outlandish things to her. I once told her that it was OK for her to have an affair, because I wasn't able to sexually perform anymore. I told her that she could just go out and find a real man. She looked at me like I had 5 heads. Intimacy is still really hard between us because I feel like the rape "defiled" the marriage bed the two of us share. I can personally attest to the fact that when you're carrying the shame of sexual assault, you will say things that don't even make sense.

Another thing to consider, is that he may have said that he had an affair because honestly the fact that a man can be raped is a taboo concept. Few people care enough to address it and our society lacks a vocabulary to adequately explain the reality of being raped as an adult male. I can imagine being raped by a woman would have its own kind of shame attached to it. My therapist has told me that the reason why it's so hard for me to understand that the rape wasn't my fault, because that would mean that I wasn't in control of the situation, and honestly that is the worst thing in the world for a man. At least, if it was an affair, he would have had control. It sounds like he didn't. Affairs don't usually hurt. Men usually have them because they get a "high" either physically or emotionally. But it might have been the only way he could have described what happened. It took me a long time to say the word "rape" out loud.
_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

Top
#398933 - 05/31/12 01:48 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: Gretta]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: Gretta

Having an affair is more intentional and obviously more hurtful to wife and the overall relationship. Rape implies zero responsibility over the fact that it happened. I find that Doubtful inthis situation. When a woman comes here and asks the question I answer her as honestly as possible. I don't do it to hurt her I do it to give her the truth.

I would still like an answer on personal responsibility.


I was raped as a married man. In my experience, few people understand unless they have gone through it themselves.

Sexual assault/rape manifests itself in different ways involving different people. Women can be perps. Grown men can be victims. I can attest that grown men aren't immune to being vulnerable. We don't know what this women may have done to get him alone with her, but one thing that I learned from my experience with sexual assault is that ANYTHING is possible. This site is geared towards supporting victims and their families. None of us can say with 100% certainty that this man was victimized, but if this was a simple affair gone wrong, if I were in this woman's shoes I wouldn't feel much sympathy for him and would already have condemned him to the couch. The fact that the experience was painful, memories were blocked out, and he is suffering from depression and suicidal thoughts would lead me to believe some kind of trauma happened.

In my marriage with my wife, the two of us tend to avoid situations where we might end up with 1 on 1 time with a member of the opposite sex. Most of my friends are male, and most of her friends are female, so this isn't hard for us. Being stalked is very different from putting yourself in the near occasion of adultery. Just because he is a man, doesn't mean he is invincible. We don't know what kind of threat he was operating under.

also.... would we be talking about "personal responsibility" if the genders were reversed and we were talking about a female victim?
_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

Top
#398953 - 05/31/12 05:42 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1866
Loc: durham, north england
For 20 years my dad worked as a psychiatric nurse. When the details of my own rape as a teenager, by a bunch of girls the same age came out, my dad told me a story that one of his colleagues told him.

This friend of my dads worked in a domestic violence center. One night, a very large, six foot two man came into the center with a black eye, bruises all over his face and on his body. It was pretty obvious that this man had been beaten up quite badly. When my dad's friend asked who was responsable, he admited to her that it was his wife who had got drunk.

She was rather surprised, and asked if he'd done anything to avoid being hit. His response "I couldn't hit my wife, ---- she's only five foot one!"

Power is not always expressed in physical force, nor should what happens to a man's body be confused with what his mind is doing, which is pretty much the route of the "males can't be victims" problem.

In my case, there was absolutely no doubt of the intentions of those involved. Insults, physical violence, I even had my face spat in during the proceedings. but whatever was going on, and wherever my mind was, my body, ---- or at least part of my body, responded, which in fact provoked even more abuse.

The age thing is almost ironic, sinse both i and the girls involved in my abuse were 15, which actually makes me! legally of the age of concent, sinse in the Uk it's 14 for boys, and them not, sinse it's 16 for girls, indeed I'm fairly certain had I been a girl, it wouldn't have happened, simply because even in a school that was such a pit of shit as mine was, there are things that you don't! do to a girl, when involved in bullying, indeed on a couple of occasions when I punched a girl in the chest I! was the one to get yelled at.

I didn't even use the word "rape" in connection what had happened to me, sinse the idea of multiple girls, especially teenaged girls abusing a boy is so alien to society's understanding, in fact when my mum used the word a good few years later I was completely and utterly stunned.

This isn't of course to say that men don't have affairs. That would be a stupid statement, only that from everything i've heard nebuous saying, the fact that this woman was a predator, that she laughed at necbuous husband, that he felt such a great amount of traumer after the fact, all this says to me that there was no concent.

The view that a man by virtue of being! a man cannot be raped by someone his own age is to me just prejudiced. Of course this isn't to say that every man who has an extra marital affair is a victim, but the more I here about this, the less it sounds like this chap had any choice in the matter.

I freely confess I am sensative about this issue for pretty obvious reasons, however I am extremely worried when the first response to hereing of a man who has had a traumatic s/xual encounter is "he must have wanted it"

Would this be the same response for a married woman who made a similar claime of having been abused? definitely not.

While I don't know greta's story, and can accept that perhaps her experiences incline her to look upon the facts one way, where as mine incline me to look upon them another, I think what nebuous has said here is pretty conclusive.

For my part I'm extremely sorry this happened to your husband nebuous, and I really hope he can find the strength to begin healing, ---- at least he quite obviously and manifestly has the support of a very loving wife.

He would be very welcome to join ms, but whether he wishes to or not, i really hope he can get passed the affects of such a dreadful experience.

Luke.

Top
#398959 - 05/31/12 06:32 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
Gretta Offline


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 239
Crux and dark empathy I am not debating your story on your rape nor that the existence of male rape. let me repeat I AM NOT DENYING YOUR RAPE OR THE EXISTENCE OF ADULT MALE Crux I am sorry your story is awful and clearly rape. First of all dark empathy you were not an adult and crux you were unable to defend yourself and your life was threaten. That's rape. I do understand the difference, it would be crazy to call your situations Affairs.

Let's stick to the story at hand And I already said if this happened to a woman I would say the exact same thing? Really I guess everyone here just reads what they want and fills in there own story.

And the original statement was how did you jump to the conclusion without more facts? Because only raped men contemplate suicide? Not true.

I thought heroes statement about assumption was very good, someone could assume as a medical provide he overstepped his bounds, his hypocratic oath. I am not saying that is true, before everyone loses their mind. Assuming and jumping to conclusions based on your own experience is dangerous. The Affair scenerio is as viable as any other that's all I am saying.

I have already said this but I feel her husband is very sincere and I also hope he gets help. Without further details it's impossible to determine what really happened.

Dark Empathy you are 100% right my experiences has taught me that some men have cheated and will do and say almost anything to cover it up. I spent many years in the dark. I wish I had known, not sunshine blown up my rear end but the truth. His first disclosure was the tip of the iceberg. I hope that is not the case for neb's husband.

I think avoiding one on one extended situations with members of the opposite sex is a great idea.


Edited by Gretta (05/31/12 07:26 AM)

Top
#398966 - 05/31/12 08:12 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
lucylives Offline


Registered: 04/07/11
Posts: 357
Gretta, you are wrong about one thing. I quuote you.....

some men have cheated and will do and say almost anything to cover it up

Almost is the key word here. In my case and that of my friends on here, the word almost needs to be taken out.

They will say ANYTHING to cover it up.

Don't know this woman's husband but I know mine and yours. The stories we have heard..........and believed because we think no one could possibly make this shit up. After my experience, I have to agree with you on everything except that word ALMOST. wink

To all the rest, no one including and especially Gretta is denying that grown men get raped. It happens everyday. The story just seems fishy.

Nebius, my heart goes out to you. Whatever the situation is, you are in for a great deal of pain. We are here to support you. Have you ever thought about having him take a lie detector test?

Top
#398969 - 05/31/12 08:23 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
Nebius,

Seek the counsel of the therapist and follow your heart in this. I truly hope that you and your husband find the peace and healing that you need both individually and as a couple. It does not matter if there are those here who do not "buy" his story. That is up to you and him to work through with the help of someone who actually knows what they are talking about.

Unless someone is a male survivor (CSA or ASA), a therapist who has dealt with ASA victims or the family member of an adult man who was assaulted then all said is simply ignorant speculation. This is your path to follow along with your husband and I am glad that you are both seeking help.

On a personal note - I do find some of the comments said here very supportive but I also found others to be quite insulting. We do not debate whether a man might have been abused as a child but there is one as to whether a man was as an adult. What year is this again?


Daryl


_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

Top
#398977 - 05/31/12 09:09 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
lucylives Offline


Registered: 04/07/11
Posts: 357
Also, Nebius, did you file a police report? Press charges? If I was your husband, I would. This woman sounds like a nut case and for all you know, she could file charges against him cause she is crazy.

I am not an attorney, but when it comes to dealings with crazy people, you need to protect yourself.

Speak with an attorney, in my opinion. I don't know if filing charges would make the situation worse or not but I would definitely speak with an attorney.

I do truly feel so bad for you and can't begin to imagine your confusion and pain.

When we are responding to your situation, we are all responding from waht we have seen and experienced with our husbands. I, myself, am still in shock at the depths of what my husband has done and said in the past 2 years since d-day and in the 5 years before d-day. I look at him still today with the "who are you" thoughts. Most of the time, I truly have no idea. I believe I am still in shock. 2 years later, I still have nightmares. PTSD? I am sure. I jsut never, ever, EVER would have imagined this sweet, kind, gentle man would have done what he has done.

Top
#398978 - 05/31/12 09:23 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
herowannabe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/01/11
Posts: 386
Loc: USA
Quote:
On a personal note - I do find some of the comments said here very supportive but I also found others to be quite insulting. We do not debate whether a man might have been abused as a child but there is one as to whether a man was as an adult. What year is this again?


No sarcasm intended, but this is the year so many of us learned our trusted husbands have another side that we only discovered by various, devastating ways:

- Being diagnosed with an STD
- Having financial catastrophe due to spending thousands of dollars on hookers, hotels, alcohol, drugs, gambling, porn, etc.
- Watching our family disintegrate due to betrayal, abuse, hospitalizations, etc.
- Losing the means to support our family by our husbands' job loss, our own, or having our resources drained by the above and the counseling bills that ensue.
- The death of our own selves due to the horrific trauma of learning your entire life was a lie; the man you've loved and trusted doesn't exist. And we were too "stupid" to see it. Now we don't even trust our own judgement.
- My sisters can add to this list, no doubt.

Again, NO ONE is saying this man was NOT raped; perhaps he was as has been the experience of many men on MS.

However, maybe he wasn't. If this man is acting out/acting in, or is simply covering his tracks, which is possible, then Nebius must, for her own physical, spiritual, mental and emotional health, be supported.

That all of this is mere speculation is spot on! But providing Nebius the fruits of our varied labors can only be beneficial.

herowannabe
_________________________


For I know the plans I have made for you. Plans to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11


Top
#398980 - 05/31/12 09:33 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
KMCINVA Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1433
I believe the therapist and support groups are key for your husband and you. I have learned, people can pass judgment but sadly what happens to a child or adult who is raped is devastating. People can question, deny or not believe, but it is their choice. Something I read about bullying and posted is key here--rape is a heinous act of bullying--the last three lines

You think you know them.
Guess what?
You don’t.

The child is forever damaged until healed, the adult becomes damaged in someways and like the child does not become whole until they heal. How they act, why they act the way they do is because of what happened do them--rape-- you may think you know them but as the poem said you don't. The act created a barrier, a wall, confusion, distrust and pain.

Nebius, there is enough judgment out there in this world--everyone knows everything, but no one knows the pain and damage of a rape victim better than the victim--no matter if they are a parent, sibling, spouse or child. Therapy and support groups are not about judgment but rather a safe place to express your feelings about you and your situation, a place to show compassion and ask questions that will allow the person to examine themselves, a place they will not feel attacked or judged. There is no right or wrong in healing--we all do it at our own pace and own way. We explore the past and learn to live with the past because we allowed events to control our lives as does the situation you face. You need to heal, learn to live with it and not let it dominate your life. It takes time and energy.

CSA and ASA wreak havoc on lives, but the victim and hopefully a survivor in many cases has no idea who they are and why it happened. Shame grips the victim, a child carries this for a lifetime and can react to new hurts by further retreating and feeling more damaged. An adult feels violated and shame. And when those around them say it is not true or could not happen, it heightens the shame and can push the victim over he edge.

I learned from someone who said--she could not judge a person because until I walk in their shoes I do not know what life has done to them. So listen, take in the probing questions,express your anger, seek help and support. Do not allow judgments by others to cloud your healing. Good luck

One last thought, as for pressing charges, it is your husband's choice--he may feel shame and public notice may help him but it can also further damage his self esteem.

Best wishes




Edited by KMCINVA (05/31/12 09:37 AM)

Top
#398984 - 05/31/12 09:44 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
whome Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1734
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
Ever heard of manipulation. Don't all be so quick to condemn?
_________________________
Matrix Men South Africa
Survivors Supporting Each other
Matrix Men Blog

Top
#398985 - 05/31/12 09:57 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1866
Loc: durham, north england
I think darrel and martin have said it here for me. What I find worrying about people's reactions is the instant assumption, when terms like "s/xual predator" and "sadistic" are thrown around that this is an affair willingly gone into by a man of his own volition. This is dangerously close to the "men can't be raped" sterriotype of our society, which is why I find it such a disturbing judgement.

I can understand that from the perspective of those who's husbands have had affairs, that might be the first conclusion, but given the fact that Nebius is here, the fact that such language was used etc, that seems far less likely to me.

I could be utterly wrong of course, but the feeling I get from reading the story is a man who has been taken advantage of. Here in the Uk the law is innocent until proven guilty, and I think perhaps this is a worth while law to follow in this case, given everything I've heard.

Top
#398986 - 05/31/12 10:01 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
lucylives Offline


Registered: 04/07/11
Posts: 357
Manipulation is exactly what we are talking about. Hero, esposa, Gretta and I have all been horribly manipulated by the men who are supposed to love us. We are scared for nebuis if that is what is happening to her.

Top
#398988 - 05/31/12 10:06 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
herowannabe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/01/11
Posts: 386
Loc: USA
Since when is manipulation without some kind of physical control over an ADULT a crime? Men and women have manipulated each other since Genesis. To call that rape means a lot of us belong in prison.

Remember, we are talking ASA here, not CSA!

Understandably, the survivors will take in Nebius's factually sparse post with a rape filter. Some supporters will use a filter of adultery for good reason.

The truth is all any of us seek. Then, appropriate support can be provided.
_________________________


For I know the plans I have made for you. Plans to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11


Top
#398989 - 05/31/12 10:17 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
I'm really sorry that there are so many women here that have been hurt by the survivors in their lives. I can't imagine how devastating it would be to find out that your spouse was having an affair. Marriage is a sacred and holy thing which is why I felt so tormented after having been raped.... it is something that has physically and emotionally scarred me, and my wife has scars as well.

I've read a lot of threads on this forum about male CSA survivors acting out their abuse by having affairs. A lot of times these men never learned healthy boundaries, or maybe sex became like a drug for them and they had affairs compulsively. In either case, I can imagine how hard it would be to struggle with loving a husband who do such things, knowing that there is a hurting boy within who never deserved to be abused, but then also dealing with a wake of destruction caused by bad choices. It sounds like a horrible situation to go through and I feel sorry for you all...

However, the story Nebius is telling might not be that same story. I think each and every one of us has experienced a lot of pain caused by sexual abuse, and these experiences can sometimes cause us to look at others' experiences through the same "box." But if this guy really was manipulated, coerced, and/or threatened by this female stalker, then he's been victimized and it wasn't an affair at all. My instinct is to think that people are innocent unless proven otherwise, because I hate it when people barrage me with questions instead of just believing my story.

I can't tell you how many times I've dealt with people, even therapists, interrogating me first before saying, "Well, I guess it wasn't your fault, then." I get a lot of questions. "Why didn't you tell someone?" "Are you sure he would actually follow through on killing you?" "He probably wouldn't have done such a thing?" "Couldn't you have asked for a different nurse?" "Why didn't you call for help?" (That would have been nice but he took away my ability to speak)

When people doubt my story before believing me, I shut down. I can't trust them.

My brother ultimately believed me and is supportive, but of course he asked a lot of questions before he came to the conclusion that it wasn't my fault. Honestly one of the only things that works to stop people from asking so many questions is to tell them about the surgery I had to have to correct the physical damage, and the damage that still exists because I think another surgery would be too triggering.

Thankfully my wife never questioned my story but I know if she put me to a lie detector test, not only would it show that it was being honest, but it would probably cause me to shut down in the relationship and lose whatever confidence I still had in her.
_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

Top
#398990 - 05/31/12 10:21 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
KMCINVA Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1433
I am scared for everyone. The judgments here are becoming confrontational--I do not think that helps anyone. We all have opinions, and opinions can be expressed without judgment. Words of hurt, words that do not offer direction to those seeking help but rather pontificate with an answer.

Let's help each other, so many have been hurt, the victim, those around them, family and friends.

I have lived in an environment of always being wrong and judged, attacked in so many ways and look it pushed me over and pushed me beyond who I was because of the burden of CSA. The ASA victim here carries a burden, so does those around him. No one escapes. And no one will heal with these judgments and innuendos.

It is becoming a bullying session and not one that is helpful to Nebius. It is becoming a he said she said discussion and very confrontational--you are wrong, I am right.

Top
#398991 - 05/31/12 10:23 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
lucylives Offline


Registered: 04/07/11
Posts: 357
Dark Empathy,

From what I understand, it was the therapist or doctor who used the work sexual predator and sadistic.

We all on here have been to enough therapists and doctors who really shouldn't be counselling people on matters such as this because they are not trained in it.

I dont' know about everyone else here, but while therapy shopping, I actually had a therapist tell me that my husband was gay and a sociopath and I needed to just accept that.

I don't put a whole lot of stock in therapists or doctors unless they are truly trained. Sopme of them don't know shit. we all know that.

Top
#398992 - 05/31/12 10:24 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
nebius Offline


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 6
If a man was trying to cover up an affair or cast blame elsewhere what are some of the things he would do? Would he make any life changes or just analyze it away and say it wasn't his fault? Would he tell his wife without prompting, tell his extended family and close freinds? Would he quit his job on the spot, lose a huge pension sell his car and begin looking for a new home out of fear of continued stalking? Or can we just say he is trying to start over...

Top
#398995 - 05/31/12 10:37 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
did you have any reason to think that he was being less than faithful? I am not an expert on affairs, but I think a lot of times a man will cover his tracks by saying that he's "working late" or lying about who he's spending time with. I can't imagine where the benefit to him would be, to just come home one day and say he had an affair without the wife suspecting that something fishy was happening.

and again, using the word "affair" to describe what happened might be the only thing he can say because "rape" is hard to say sometimes.
_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

Top
#398996 - 05/31/12 10:42 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
lucylives Offline


Registered: 04/07/11
Posts: 357
If I had an affair wiht a crazy person who starts stalking me, yes I might do that. They might be really scary and crazy.

Has he filed a restraining order? Has he pressed charges of any sort?

I am so sorry you are going through all this. You must be devestated and so confused.

IF this woman is truly crazy and a rapist, if he does't press any charges, she will do it over and over and over again to other people. A rapist, I don't believe, will ever stop at one victim.

If she is a rapist, she must be stopped.If she is just some crazy stalker, she must be stopped.

Top
#398997 - 05/31/12 10:43 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
lucylives Offline


Registered: 04/07/11
Posts: 357
I hope to God she isn't pregnant or something. People are crazy, you never know what their motives are.

Top
#398999 - 05/31/12 10:54 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
Gretta Offline


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 239
Not trying to insult anyone and please don't put words in my mouth, and I never said a MAN CAN'T BE RAPED, go back and read. This is what I am talking about these whole hearted sweeping statement, jumping to conclusions, assume with little or no information. I only asked to entertain the affair side of things and how did you come to such quick judgment that it was not. Not to condemn him but to help him.

Nebius I am truly sorry and my heart breaks for your and your husband. My husband was horribly abused as a child by not only his father and too many neighborhood boys to mentioned. I get taking care of a man that is hurting & suicidal and my comments really are out of best interest, because if it was an affair and there is something underneath that you aren't dealing with it will just pop it's ugly head again. It's almost scarier to think that a woman without physical force and through pure manipulation was able to wreak this kind of havoc on your life. My husband made a conscience decision, that I can wrap my brain around. Mentally deformed as he was because of his abuse he made a choice.

Nebius I hope your husband finds the help he needs and I will stay out of your post.


Edited by Gretta (05/31/12 03:26 PM)

Top
#399048 - 05/31/12 09:48 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
GBWU Offline


Registered: 04/21/12
Posts: 17
Nebius,

If he is telling you the truth, you will know it. Follow your instincts and your heart. Also, a qualified therapist will be able to help as well. You can't let others plant seeds of doubt in your mind. Find out for yourself the truth and whatever that turth is, you decide what's best for you moving forward. Someone else's experiences are NOT yours so don't claim them.

Please know I'm thinking about you. I know what you're going through. Take one day at a time.

A story full of lies will fall apart, but the truth will stand firm no matter how many try to tear it apart.

Top
#399058 - 05/31/12 10:51 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
mmfan Offline


Registered: 09/25/11
Posts: 114
Nebius and your dear husband are in my thoughts again today.

CruxFidelis, thank you for sharing so much of yourself here, I gained a lot from your posts. It helps me to understand my survivor better.

Top
#399061 - 05/31/12 10:56 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
herowannabe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/01/11
Posts: 386
Loc: USA
Introduction

Here is a link to an Introduction that may or may not be of help. I don't wish to cause you further anguish, Nebius. However, I am in the company of many supporters who never in a million years could have imagined the two very different people that lived within my husband. Nor could this survivor's wife, I'm sure (see link above).

GBWU is absolutely right; the truth will stand firm. Please know that no one is trying to tear truth apart. You expressed bewilderment in your original post and earlier today asked if your husband's behavior is indicative of one suffering from trauma. I believe he has suffered a trauma, but traumas aren't just black and white. Not pointing out possibilities other than rape would be a injustice to you.

You and your beloved are being prayed for!

(((Nebius)))
herowannabe
_________________________


For I know the plans I have made for you. Plans to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11


Top
#399148 - 06/01/12 04:38 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
Sailor John Offline


Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 307
Loc: Newfoundland & Labrador
Hi nebius,

This sounds perfectly normal response to sexual abuse. There is nothing abnormal about asking a medical provider about a medical problem. In fact, I have a cousin who's a doctor and yes, there were a couple of times that I've asked her about something.

It is a myth that males in my opinion probably starting at puberty that we can never be raped, sexually abused or assaulted - we are supposed to like it. Sounds to me like he was stalked and the family near and extended were groomed by the woman who he had the affair with.

I think the best thing for you is to praise him for telling you (it's one of the hardest things he ever did) and letting him know that you still love him and are willing to help him in any you can within limits.
_________________________
I will mourn the teenager I never was and strive to make that dot of light way out in the far reaches of the end of the tunnel turn into a bright sun.

WE ARE NOT VICTIMS. WE ARE THE SURVIVORS!!!

Top
#399151 - 06/01/12 06:05 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
Esposa Offline
F&F Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 636
Loc: NJ
Men, any man, can be sexually assaulted. WITHOUT A DOUBT

Did he deserve it? ABSOLUTELY NOT, NO MATTER WHAT

As his wife, I would wonder, however, what was happening for him in the time leading up to the event. Once you make sure he has support for what he is going through now, ASK THOSE QUESTIONS because they impact your marriage and your union. AND THEY ARE IMPORTANT QUESTIONS. Asking them DOES NOT IN ANY WAY diminish what he is suffering or what he is going through.

Top
#399152 - 06/01/12 07:05 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
KMCINVA Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1433
Esposa

Your first two sentences are so true--child or adult no one deserves to be abused. How it affects the victim is so different for each person. I know what happened to me, and I to this day grapple and do not understand why I did what I did to cope. I question myself, so should others--probably yes-but should they also look at the total picture?

It is a horrible thing to have your life robbed at any point in life--child or adult. A child does not have a mature mind and that part of the child never matures always shamed, feeling self guilt, distrustful--just disgusted with themselves. The child seeks relief through drugs, alcohol, sex, suicide, recreating being the victim now in control--but the a relief of the pain is temporary--never permanent. The adult with a mature mind must feel totally violated,deprived of being in charge and control, shamed and guilt ridden by understanding what happened.

And those around them do not see their pain. And not knowing the victims pain and only seeing what they did to live with the pain and these actions hurt them. So many lives ruined and destroyed by the hands of an abuser who leaves and never knows the pain but leaves a path of destroyed lives. I only recently could adamantly say I was raped. I could write it but at the race to Stop CSA I said it out loud after admitting why I was there--and it relived some pain and hurt. I began to despise my rapist. Yes that is the right word.

Too many hurt, too many robbed of joy and happiness--the victim and those around them suffer more than the abuser. So let us all be kind to each other, reach out, understand their pain, and not condemn what they are living through. The victim if a child has decades of pain and those around maybe far less years, the adult victim with a more developed and mature mind must be experiencing excruciating pain and thoughts because they totally comprehend the damages of rape.

I, like everyone here has been through such grief and loss of self. But the pain of being raped can not be understand by those who have not experienced such loss and the betrayal to those around us cannot be totally understood by the victim, we have different pain and hurt. But to the victim it is loss of self and who we are or believe we should be or confused as to who we are. We are robbed of a belief we deserve to live and be happy because our bodies were robbed and violated and unknowingly it affected our minds and hearts.

Have a priest penetrate you as a child and tell me your pain is the same and your mind has not been destroyed as to who who you are. Yes everyone is in pain, no pain is acceptable and the degree of pain cannot be measured because it differs for all of us. So let us show compassion for each other.

We all need support and help.


Edited by KMCINVA (06/01/12 07:16 PM)

Top
#399154 - 06/01/12 07:28 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
KMCINVA Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1433
Esposa

After I wrote the above it was not directed at you. But I responded to you, it was a generally vomment. Sorry about thay.

Top
#399156 - 06/01/12 08:15 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: Esposa]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
Any victim can tell you though how questions are asked is very important.


Daryl
_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

Top
#399158 - 06/01/12 08:39 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
earlybird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: WA USA
I’ve wrestled at length with this thread and people’s responses struggling deepest with my own conflicting thoughts. I need this type of controversy, though somewhat painful, because it makes me think and rethink my position on things.

Though I believe I can somewhat understand and empathize where some of the “doubters” of this man’s story are coming from I, as an ASA man, also know the fear and agony of not being believed and my motives questioned. I have to be honest and admit I also have some real internal questions concerning the information given which is (understandably) too inefficient for me to arrive at a clear knowledge of the events that occurred or the motivations of another individual I do not know. I at best can only speculate yet mustn’t I remain open to an answer other than that born out of my suspicions. I can’t (nor, in my opinion, should anyone) use my own experience as a measuring stick to the legitimacy of another man’s situation. I’m too biased to be impartial.

I’ve really grappled with the pain of my confliction pertaining to this thread and have come to the conclusion that sense this is not a court of law no man here should have to prove their innocence. If he is lying to cover his tracks, as implied, then shame on him and he’ll have to face the consequences that will surely come later. However if he is telling the truth then there is a greater harm done (and by me) by mistrusting him. It’s clear I don’t know the “truth” and sense here at MS we are not part of the judicial system I must fall on the side of supporting this couple and their story– even though I’m puzzled by the situation as presented thus far. But damn, doubt is common and at times I’m puzzled by my own rape and I was there.

Thanks to everyone who has shared their thoughts for each position has caused me to evaluate which is what I need and why I’m here.

Neibus, I especially owe you a thanks for opening up, taking a risk and sharing your story with us. I have little doubt that this is and will continue for years to come to be a tough road that you and your husband are on. It is my hope alone with EVERYONE here that you find support and comfort at MS and elsewhere.

First and foremost – be kind to yourself and take careful care.
_________________________
Balanced (My goal)

There is symmetry
In self-reflection
Life exemplified
Grace personified

Top
#399187 - 06/02/12 09:10 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: earlybird]
GBWU Offline


Registered: 04/21/12
Posts: 17
Earlybird,

Well said. Nebius needs support and so does her husband. Like you said if he is not telling the truth it will come out. It always does.

I must say it use to bother me if I thought people did not believe what happened to my husband, but I could care less now. My only concern is that he continues speaking to his therapist twice a week and we continue seeing a family therapist once a week together. He is taking all the steps necessary to try and recovery from this and recover as a married couple. It's not been easy at all. Last night was another major breakdown. The anger he feels towards his rapist takes over his life and the constant wondering why she chose him. The constant question of why me!

The breakthrough for us has been not to keep this deep dark secret any longer and finding wonderful therapists. These ladies are fantastic and very supportive. Our family therapist said it best, if it turns out this child carries my husband’s DNA the only thing the rapist can gain is money, but she can never gain your soul. Absolutely true! It does not change the fact that he was raped. Nothing changes that.

Someone asked Nebius has her husband filed a police report, etc. The reality is that men are not going to report rape for fears which we all know. One attorney we spoke to about my husband's rape said the worse decision he made was not going to the police the next morning, but he stated to my husband he understood why he didn't. It's hard for a woman to report rape so how can we expect a man? As my brother in-law (police officer) told me unfortunately the courts will probably not care how the child was conceived, as a society we just aren't there yet. So let's be clear, to think that a man's first reaction is to go to the cops after he's been raped is not living in reality. There’s no support system in place for a man and that has to change.

I'll use my husband's real rape for an example of how society does not care what happens to an adult male. In this case female on male rape. Would any of you QUESTION a woman who was intoxicated and decided she had enough and went to bed in her own apartment only to find out the next day that a man she did not know came in her place of residence uninvited and raped her? Remember the law is clear when it comes to incapacitation (drugs, alcohol, etc.). But yet because my husband is an adult male, it's OK to violate him because he's a male- he should have been able to protect himself. If he didn't want it he wouldn't have ejaculated. He wasn't THAT drunk because he was aroused. It's just nonsense and we are talking about people's lives here. REAL PEOPLE!

I know if the roles were reversed there would be no questioning of the man's guilt. The fact is none of us know for sure how we are going to react when a life-altering event happens. I was one of those people who did not believe a man could be raped. I was one of those people who would say he/she should have done this, should have done that. Like I knew all the answers. Not anymore.

In the coming weeks we will know if this child carries my husband’s DNA then we move on to child support hearing. There are many decisions to be made. We have been told are case covers different departments of the justice system: family law, criminal law, and civil law. The attorney has made it clear it is up to my husband if he wants to proceed beyond the child support hearing. We found out the rapist wants my husband’s name removed from the birth certificate. She wants to supposedly leave the country. She supposedly tried to get the child support hearing dismissed, but she can’t because she is on welfare. She no longer has the power and she knows it.

I feel for all the men out there who have no support system. What happens to them? I've learned so much from this horrible ordeal my husband and I are going through. I want to do something to help, but I don't know what that something is yet. It will come to me.

Top
#399189 - 06/02/12 09:28 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
Obi Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 1248
Loc: kansas
excellent post, gbwu!!!!!

thank you!
_________________________
live another day. climb a little higher.

my story

my vlog

Top
#399195 - 06/02/12 10:23 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: GBWU]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
GBWU,

Thank you for a firsthand commentary from the point of view of a loved one to a male ASA. Your insight is very valuable for not only men who have been raped but also for all others on this site. I admire how you have taken your own pain in the direction of healing for your yourself and your husband.

I very much appreciate this sharing of some of your personal story in this. I hope that it helps Nebius and other women who might come here in a similar tragedy in their lives. I hope it also encourages men who were assaulted as adults to see that judgment and condemnation are not the automatic responses of all connected to a survivor. Perhaps it will help them to open up to their wives, husbands, partners or others in their lives.

It sounds like you and your husband are on the right path which is inspiring in many ways.


Daryl
_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

Top
#399216 - 06/02/12 04:59 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
lucylives Offline


Registered: 04/07/11
Posts: 357
WAs Nebius' husband drunk? I missed that part. I really am curious how he ended up alone with this woman. I can't imagine the pain of a man being raped. I can imagine that of a woman as I have been there. I was physically over powered and that is a very scary thing, indeed.

I have read many of the stories from men on here about how they met someone online (behind their wives' backs for a little triste) and it went horribly wrong or hooked up with a prostitute and it went horribly wrong. Were they raped? Yes. Did they put themselves in a very dangerous position with unsafe people? Yes. For example, my husband went to hook up with a hooker and guess what? She stole his pants and his wallet. Do I feel sorry for him? Nope. If he got raped, I would have but I would also say you put yourself in a horribly dangerous situation. BTW, he still denies the whole thing but I am not stupid. Said his car was broken into and his pants were in there with his wallet in there. Really? I am not an idiot and you hear about this stuff happening all the time.
This reminds me of the movie Fatal Attraction. did the man cheat on his wife? Yes. Did he deserve what he got for that? That is debateable. Maybe, maybe not. (I hope I am not dating myself with the movie reference)

I feel so incredibly bad for Nebius and her husband. It is so hard to imagine what really happened or to give too much sympathy when we don't know the details. We can only go on what we have seen and experienced.

Hang tough, Nebius. When I couldn't quite place my finger on the issues, I prayed for awareness. That was right before D-day. Sometimes I am sorry I prayed for that.

Top
#399217 - 06/02/12 05:03 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
lucylives Offline


Registered: 04/07/11
Posts: 357
And also, as for filing a police report, if he doesn't want to do that because of shame, that is understandable but this nut job at least needs to have a restraining order against her.

No they don't always work but a nutjob like this woman needs to be stopped in her tracks or at least of a record of the harassment with the police.

Top
#399220 - 06/02/12 06:05 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: Obi]
GBWU Offline


Registered: 04/21/12
Posts: 17
Obi,

Thank you for your kinds words. My husband and I are continuing to take one day at a time. Some days are better than others, but the good days are starting to out weight the bad days. Of course that pendulum could start swinging the other way, but as long as we have each other we know there's light at the end of the tunnel and good things are coming our way.

The key for us has been our therapists. They have literally saved my husband's life. No question about it and have opened my eyes in so many ways.

All the best to you Obi and I mean that with every ounce of my being. The fact that you can speak about what happened to you says everything. You are brave and a survivor.

Top
#399221 - 06/02/12 07:05 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: prisonerID]
GBWU Offline


Registered: 04/21/12
Posts: 17
Daryl,

Thank you for your kind words. It's taken me a very long time to get where I am now. I'm still working on forgiving, but it's getting a little easier as the days go by. When I feel overwhelmed with anger I remind myself that fear and panic drove my husband to make very bad decisions that he struggles with more than the rape itself, but it will never change what she did to him - never.

Top
#399343 - 06/04/12 09:19 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: GBWU]
Obi Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 1248
Loc: kansas
Originally Posted By: GBWU
Obi,

Thank you for your kinds words. My husband and I are continuing to take one day at a time. Some days are better than others, but the good days are starting to out weight the bad days. Of course that pendulum could start swinging the other way, but as long as we have each other we know there's light at the end of the tunnel and good things are coming our way.

The key for us has been our therapists. They have literally saved my husband's life. No question about it and have opened my eyes in so many ways.

All the best to you Obi and I mean that with every ounce of my being. The fact that you can speak about what happened to you says everything. You are brave and a survivor.


thank you very much. your words are incredibly supportive, thoughtful, compassionate and give me the strength, and hope, to continue on to battle with my issues. thank you. it's appreciated immensely!
_________________________
live another day. climb a little higher.

my story

my vlog

Top
#399346 - 06/04/12 10:48 AM Re: self condemnation [Re: nebius]
KMCINVA Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1433
After reading this thread and hearing the response, I now truly know it was the kindness, non-judgment and understanding of others that helped me to heal.

I have found myself reflecting on my life more frequently in recent weeks. Events over the past several weeks, therapy, support groups, MS, supporters make me realize how lucky I have been to survive the past abuses. I see those we have lost, those who continue to struggle (but I know they can do it and we all need to be there for them), the people in the Sandusky case who will have to relive the horror of the abuse in public and every victim I read about.

I also remember something a woman in our neighborhood, Mrs. Briggs, told me in my early teens at the beach. She was part Native American and would read peoples’ hands. I remember the time she read mine, she asked if I had been sick as a child and said in mid life I would be deeply troubled and hurt by others. The hurt would not be sickness. I asked why and she said my lifeline at a young age had breaks and reconnected to the main line and the same thing happened, but much deeper, with my lifeline in mid life. She said I would get better and have a long and happy life. I can still see these breaks in the lifeline. I never gave much credence to palm reading but it seems she could see more than I did. However, by coincidence there was so much truth to what she said.

For the past two nights I was bombarded with taunts about my acting out, the incompetency of my therapist, the stupidity and idiocy of my supporters and therapist and it goes on and on. This board is read and all comments are painstakingly analyzed to see what fault they can find with the posters—which is easy from people who view themselves as perfect (in their own minds). It is as though they do not want anyone to heal, especially me. But I realized after the past two nights, they can no longer push me back to that dark place of the child. I have made excellent progress with the understanding the different parts of me—especially the child who was so longed buried but awakened and allowed to control (I know they will read this, laugh and say they know everything about CSA, PTSD, and abuse and no one suffers from it). No longer does the child feel the only way to be whole or loved is to recreate or re-victimize the abuse. I no longer deny that part of me—I was abused sexually as a child and I accept it now and no longer need to hide from it. The secrecy, shame, guilt, distrust only made life difficult and did not allow me to live and feel joy and happiness. It is great to feel free of the burden of the secret. I also realize the part I buried for so long was angry and lost. This part allowed new abuses to enter my life.

I did not handle the new abuses and torment properly, I allowed the child to take over because I was weakened emotionally by the new torments. But no more will anyone push me to a place I no longer bury or a part of me that once held shame, guilt and denial. I have let go of those emotions, but small parts of these emotions will always remain.

I know they will read this and seeing I cannot speak to them, maybe they will see a piece of what has been done and realize they too need help. They have turned from spitting on me (but it did occur last week), spraying water at me or throwing grease on me (and expecting me to clean it up from the doors and floor) then being verbally attacked by certain members of the family, credit cards being charged by a child, ransacking my car, computer, wallet, telephone, pockets, desk, files and so much more to attacking those that helped me to heal. I made mistakes and it contributed to the environment in the home. I was there when they needed me—hanging posters, early morning rides, long distance drives for golf and tennis matches, class changes, being sick and unable to drive and walking to the stores and arranging rides for the children when their mother needed to be away, meals and cleaning when their mother was away on extended periods, hanging streamers for their birthdays, hiding Easter eggs for the annual family Easter Egg hunt, Friday night boboli, and so much more—but I failed to remind them all that was done and now all is lost. But, I believe a parent should do and not need to remind children of what was done. It creates guilt. Maybe my thinking is wrong and I should have a list and remind others what I have done.

I no longer write letters to my wife asking for help because they would be shared with the children, twisted and turned against me. I have re-read several and realize I was crying for help for so long, but the compassion was not there, or willingness to realize the children should be first, to help “us”, I was drowning. I shared parts of the letter with others who are helping me on different levels and parts of my life, and when reading the letters they have said they clearly see my cry for help, it could not be any louder. They are in disbelief in the amount of information that was shared with the children and say nothing good comes from bringing children into adult and marital situations. I have learned this type of parent/child relationship is learned and will be passed from generation to generation but the degree and severity of the behavior will vary. Whatever it may be, help is needed.

I have found strength in myself that I did not realize I possessed. But I now know I needed to accept the past in order to find my inner self. It was from you, supporters, support groups and my T that has allowed me to be at this place in my life. No longer am I ashamed of my past because the abuse was not my fault I was a child but how I handled the awaking was my responsibility. I should have sort help as I was having periods of feeling like a passenger in my body or lost time, I did not seek the help. Why, fear of allowing the “secret” to be known, thoughts of going crazy, believing I could handle it on my own, ashamed of my failures. But looking back I did not have the capacity to handle, I was damaged from the CSA and what was going on around me. Abuse is horrible it destroys the mind, body, soul and heart. Now I look forward to happy tomorrows (and if Mrs. Briggs is correct I will have a long and happy life because the lines are reconnecting) and I no longer letting others push me to feel like a passenger in my body or loose time when attacked by those around me. Healing is a difficult process but in the end it offers many rewards,hopes and dreams. I truly want to be there for others working on healing or feeling lost because of sexual abuse. Only together can we help others to heal. Negative or all knowing judgments only damage and push back the healing process. Remember the victim/survivor is the only one who knows the pain of CSA/ASA--no one around you can tell you how you feel--only you can feel what has been done to you.



Edited by KMCINVA (06/04/12 11:15 AM)

Top
#399399 - 06/04/12 09:31 PM Re: self condemnation [Re: KMCINVA]
GBWU Offline


Registered: 04/21/12
Posts: 17
"KMCINVA," you said, "remember the victim/survivor is the only one who knows the pain of CSA/ASA--no one around you can tell you how you feel--only you can feel what has been done to you."

You are so right. My husband knows what happened to him was not his fault. It took a very long time for him to get to where he is now. No more shame, guilt, anxiety, panic or fear of not being believed. We no longer worry about how crazy his rape sounds to others. He just continues to speak the truth and that is a powerful thing.

Claim that long happy life because you deserve it!

Top
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >


Moderator:  ModTeam, peroperic2009 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.