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#396529 - 05/08/12 06:11 PM What do you wish other people knew about ASA
J.Bytendorp Offline
User
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/09/09
Posts: 43
Loc: Salt Lake CIty, Utah
I have been asked by Male Survivor to create an information sheet concerning ASA issues. I am bringing this to you to get your feedback and input before I write this. What I am looking for is information that you wish people would know when it comes to ASA. For example the handout for the CSA includes questions about how to protect someone from being abused or how to approach a boy who you suspect has been abused or what to do if a boy tells you they have been abused. I want this to be your voice and about ASA issues. I need this as soon as possible I will be writing the sheet in the next couple of days. If you want to send this in an email please do.

Josh Bytendorp

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#396544 - 05/08/12 09:47 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
I wish people knew it existed, period. I certainly didn't until it happened to me.

Is this directed toward survivors or friends/family of survivors, or the professionals who work with them? One thing I wish people in general could understand is that male rape is not sex, it is about controlling the victim, and often the perpetrators use violence, deception and torture to achieve that end. One of the things I have a hard time is when professionals tell me that I was completely powerless to stop it, because being told I'm powerless just tears at the core of my being. I'm a man. I'm supposed to be strong & powerful, not weak or a victim. Part of me would rather blame myself because at least that would mean that I would have had the power to stop it.

One of the central things I wish people saw was my need to feel in control of my life. After having so much control taken from me, I crave it.
_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

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#396551 - 05/08/12 10:53 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
TheTwoOfUs Offline


Registered: 11/03/11
Posts: 149
Loc: USA
I wish people wouldn't insult us or harass us for daring to open our mouths and say we were assaulted.

I wish people knew that it happens a LOT in the military.

I wish people could understand that it hurts us just as much as it does a woman or a girl or a young boy.

I wish people understood that telling us to "just get over it" is about as helpful as a spit in the bucket.

Flashbacks are real. They hurt.

I wish people understood that it doesn't matter HOW big we are, how much we weigh, what we do for a living, or how good we are at fighting. I wish people understood that it doesn't matter what gender we are - rape is still rape and it can and DOES happen!

I wish people could understand just how terrifying it is for some of us to leave our house anymore, simply because we never know who can be trusted and who can't.

There is paranoia. Fear. Anxiety.

There are nightmares. Phobias.

I wish we had some SOLID proffessional resources at our disposal. Therapists don't know what to DO with us! The cops think it's a joke, and it usually never even goes to a trial!

I have HUGE trust issues. HUGE touching issues. HUGE control issues. ALL of that needs to be made plain.

And I really wish people wouldn't equate an ejaculation with "wanting it." That hurts more than anything else I've had thrown at me... if I'd "wanted it" I wouldn't have been fighting it!!!

Hope this helps. I'm sure there's more but this is what comes to mind for me.


Edited by TheTwoOfUs (05/08/12 10:54 PM)
_________________________
Matthew

Adapt. Overcome. Survive.

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#396561 - 05/08/12 11:54 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
J.Bytendorp Offline
User
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/09/09
Posts: 43
Loc: Salt Lake CIty, Utah
Wow thank you two for what you have shared, It is very helpful. I believe that these will be going out to the general public. Male Survivor wanted to include one specifically for ASA because they do understand that you guys are not heard and that it is not talked about. I want this to be your voice not my voice, not the professionals voice. You guys are the ones who have lived it an experienced it.

Josh

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#396564 - 05/09/12 12:21 AM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
I appreciate all that you're doing for us.

Another thing I wish people understood was just how isolating it is. There aren't any friends I have really told, and I know men who have gone decades without telling anyone. Only my wife and a handful of close relatives know--for me anyway. I have a very close friend and he comes to visit me a few times a week but there's this wall up because I can't tell him what happened. My wife is a survivor of rape & CSA, and his wife was raped when we were in college, so the two of us have bonded over having wives with survivor issues. He has no clue what happened to me 2 years ago and even though I know he's read a lot of books about survivors and is very into supporting his wife, I can't be sure he'd be able to wrap his mind around this happening to a man.

I feel this huge disconnect between me and most of the people who I called friends.

In my life, there's the me from before the assault, and then there's me after. Those selves are mutually exclusive. I might have the same social security # or address, but that's it.
_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

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#396574 - 05/09/12 02:06 AM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
TheTwoOfUs Offline


Registered: 11/03/11
Posts: 149
Loc: USA
One other thing - it's just as much a case of rape if your attacker is female as it is if he's male. It is JUST as much of an assault! I am so so SO sick and tired of hearing how women "can't overpower men" or how they "can't be offendors".

"Can't" be my lilly white arse! Three of the eight that attacked myself and my sis were FEMALE. We were BOTH assaulted by BOTH genders. It wasn't "just" the males. This is a huge HUGE myth that people have about rape and rapists, that "all" rapists are male. Not. True. At. ALL. And it is a very, VERY damaging myth.

So yes. We can add that in as well, I suppose. Women can rape just as well as males can. Women can offend just as well as males can.

And one last thing for the night, I think -- the transmission of STD's through assault is very, VERY real. Sis and I are both living examples of this.

We live day to day, moment to moment, because that's all we can do.

Thank-you for putting this together. I hope it gets out to more people. And I really, really hope that it actually makes an impact and opens some people's eyes. I appreciate your efforts - thank you.


Edited by TheTwoOfUs (05/09/12 02:10 AM)
_________________________
Matthew

Adapt. Overcome. Survive.

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#396624 - 05/09/12 03:31 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
Anomalous Offline
Greeter Coordinator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 03/07/10
Posts: 1352
Hi Josh,

This is an impromptu reply, but given the very short deadline by which to gather this information, I will attempt to answer your question.

As Pete (CruxFidelis) asked, it would be good to know who the target audience for this information is supposed to be. The replies will be different if this is for the general public vs. professionals.

Without rehashing everything that has been said on this subject, you should read this thread. Much of what you seek has already been stated elsewhere.

Regardless of when the abuse/ assaults took place, EVERYONE needs to know that men/ males who have been abused will NOT become abusers!!!!

I can not say that strenuously or loudly enough!!!

The knee-jerk reaction of J.Q. Public is to automatically accuse us of being abusers just becuase we were abused /assaulted. Look at how many guys here who have forcibly lost contact with their kids through the courts because attorneys spew this $h*t and judges accept it as true.

For information regarding the creation of, and the debunking of that myth, read this. Here are other myths about male rape which also need to be acknowledged, and debunked in the public consciousness.

A great injustice has been done to us as a result of that "original" research. Because of the "conclusion" that males who are abused/ assaulted go on to become victimizers, money for services (back in the 1970s) was withheld. The prevaling attitude that existed for decades was "why bother treating those who will just go on to abuse?" As a result, few treatment services are available to males. Many of the rape crisis centers in the United States REFUSE to provide services to males.

Sadly, for males in certain professions such as teaching, if their abuse/ assault becomes known, it is not uncommon for them to be forced out of their positions because of the "knowledge" that they will become abusers.

Abuse / assault experienced as an adult also comes with a de-masculinaztion -- by friends, lovers, and the general public. We are not any less men because of these experiences.

Nor do these things "make us" gay or happen because we are, or were, perceived as such.

I strongly suggest those invested in this project take the time to read the books I have listed on the ASA Resource List, or at least the two books which have the highest recommendations. Again, many of the answers you seek are there.

We are blamed for "letting" ourselves be abused (acts repeated over time, may or may not have more than one perp) and assaulted. We are told that we must have "wanted it" because we didn't "stop it." For guys who's body responded they are told that was "proof" that the acts were "consensual" and "wanted."

No, the only thing an erection proves is that, physiologically, the body works as designed. PERIOD.

Statements such as "it's (rape) is worse for females than it is for males" is a very sexist and veryignorant attitude. Rape is horrifice regardless of the target, or the perpetrator.

Just as women are "blamed" for wearing the "wrong thing" or "being in the wrong place," we, too, are blamed for "being in the wrong place," "imbibing," etc.

The bottom line is, the public prefers to blame the victims of abuse/ assaults rather than put the onus where it belongs ... on those who perpetrated these acts.

Professionals need to know this, and so much more. Being told things like "men can't be raped," or "perhaps you actually enjoyed it" are damaging beyond belief. Would such things be said to female survivors?

Get the sexism out of this!!!

Law enforcement also needs to take this seriously.

This is not a "lover's spat" or a situation between two (fill in the inappropriate adjective here), "so let them deal with it on their own," nor something for their locker room jokes or other acts of bad taste and "reasons" for their failure to uphold the law.

Frequently, the police turn a blind eye if they suspect one of the people is "gay," as though that somehow ameliorates the situation or makes it "okay." ALL reports of sexual violence need to be taken seriously, and the injured parties should be given the respect and dignity they deserve.

Medical professionals ... doctors, dentists, optometrists, etc. ALL need to realize that many of the men they see have experienced sexual abuse or assault. It is commonplace to expect a man to disrobe and to be ridiculed for any "resistance" or "modesty." Hospital personnel rarely consider a male patient's reluctance to be examined (not abuse/ assault related) might be due to something other than the guy just being "difficult." Unless a male is being seen specifically for sexual abuse related injuries/ problems, it is never considered that he might have been, or currently be experiencing abuse, and that is why he is fearful and reticent to be examined and touched.

Frankly, we are invisible, except to be the butt of jokes and villianized based on inaccurate conclusions drawn by a "reasearcher" more than 30 years ago.

The therapeutic community has accepted the words of the original researcher and then has put the subject of the victimization of males on the back burner.

Even Google searches of "Rape of Adult Males" and other such search terms return results of males being the PERPETRATORS, and not the other way around.

Sadly, the same type of results are obtained while searching the PsychInfo database used by psychology students and therapists.

The National definition of rape has not yet been changed to take gender out of it. It is a work in progress, but it has not yet happened. Currently, the FBI defines rape as a man penetrating a woman.

You ask "what do you with other people knew about ASA?"

Frankly, the answers would fill volumes.

The fast and short replies from a few here who are lucky enough to make their views known before the deadline are not able to fully decribe that which needs to be known.

The research into the sexual abuse and assualt of adult males is about forty years behind the research of that regarding women.

While some progress is being made, it is much too little and much too slow. Not enough people are interested in this subject.

One very disturbing facet of the abuse/ assault of adult males is what happens in prisons. That topic is discussed very little here, but it needs to be inlcuded in any research and any resources about adult male sexual abuse and assualt. Exclusion of any faction of adult males being sexually abused/ assaulted from the discourse hurts all of us.

There is a lot of information in this forum alone that will provid some of the answers you seek.

PM me if you would like to pursue further discussion.





Anomalous
_________________________
Acceptance on someone else's terms is worse than rejection.

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#396697 - 05/10/12 05:40 AM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
earlybird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: WA USA
I would like to emphasize what has already been said. We, ASA men, are constantly chastised, mollified and marginalized by every organization (virtual or real) we turn to for assistance - a response many, if not most, adult raped men instinctively knew and fear would be the outcome if we were to speak out.

Until we address and resolve this issue (real or unreal) instead of ignoring it, I don’t see the point.


Edited by earlybird (05/10/12 05:53 AM)
_________________________
Balanced (My goal)

There is symmetry
In self-reflection
Life exemplified
Grace personified

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#401052 - 06/20/12 02:58 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
HappyDays Offline


Registered: 06/16/12
Posts: 28
I would like people to understand that men all men have feeling and emotions. The expression get over piss me off, do you get over having diabetes or were glass no. You work throught it, I been thinking lately when people have something like diabetes or in a wheel chair or what ever it might be, the seem understanding about it. But lord if a man show the signs of emotions the courage to I mean the true emotions that all MS have it wrong in today's world, that is just wrong. I would love to get more involved with speak to MS and possibley to none MS to speak out for us. We are OK just like everyone we just need to work on improving life for the great good.
_________________________
Anything and all things are possible when you understand the feelings coming from you heart

Courage, honor, respect = strength!!!!

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#401057 - 06/20/12 04:38 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
bodyguard8367 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1159
Loc: ""
""


Edited by bodyguard8367 (02/26/14 06:55 PM)
Edit Reason: SILENCED

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#401158 - 06/21/12 12:06 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
WriterKeith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 952
Loc: southern California
I hope my words here are taken with the understanding that I want to help.

I wish we, the men of the MS community, would take the lead in bringing the topic of ASA out of the shadows. We need to hear more about it, we need to learn more about it, and that's not happening because ASAs do not feel safe talking about...even here.

Pop culture has the majority of us buying into the notion that, "ASAs are lesser men or lack the masculine traits and that is what rendered them vulnerable to rape or assault." Therefore, we are unintentionally re-victimizing, ostracizing, and silencing ASAs. This empowers perpetrators. While comedians have audiences roaring with laughter over ASA punchlines, perps are wringing their hands in delight. Few ASAs would stand alone and speak up against that kind of mob mentality, and it's pretty much how the general public deals with the matter. To some degree, we reflect that behavior here in our own MS community.

I was a boy, a CSA, less than 4 feet tall when I was molested each Saturday by my father. My own mother said it was my fault, that I should have defended myself, that I must have "done something to entice it." Can you imagine the things that are said to an Adult Survivor of Assault or Abuse?

We need to HEAR and SEE ASAs, so we may ALL be educated on the matter, so that WE may include them and support them, and, most of all, to prevent future incidents. ASAs have to take the initiative and courage to step up and speak out, but they cannot do this without a VISIBLE AND INCLUSIVE FORUM, especially in our MS community where they are safe, respected, and surrounded.

I believe it is important that they be blended into the CSA forums and discussion rather than relegated 'to the outskirts of town' and isolated from CSAs. We CSAs have a LOT to learn from ASAs, and even more to learn about ASAs. ASAs most definitely need a place to share where they are heard and respected, and I believe the key is not to isolate them but to address the issues of MS CSAs who lack compassion and respect for our ASAs.

....and we CSAs need to be men enough to speak up if ever we witness an ASA being addressed disrespectfully in a CSA-dominated discussion. ASA issues pinpoint and magnify the most sensitive CSA symptoms. The guilt/shame/blame issues come to the forefront, and some CSAs respond by "lashing out" and trivializing rather than "dealing with."

Thank you for tending to the needs of our ASA members of our community! [u][/u]
_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#401272 - 06/22/12 03:56 AM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: WriterKeith]
TheTwoOfUs Offline


Registered: 11/03/11
Posts: 149
Loc: USA
Thank-you for writing this, Keith.

Can't say more than that right now.
_________________________
Matthew

Adapt. Overcome. Survive.

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#401526 - 06/24/12 10:57 AM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
theredhairedcrow Offline


Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 20
Loc: Germany
I know the deadline has passed, but I wanted to post anyway just in case some else wants to read, or we can have further discussion on:

I wish more people understand that as a man who, honestly now, I'm not sure if I am gay or bisexual, that just because that is my sexual orientation I did not ask for or deserve to be gang-raped by soldiers when I was nineteen. My sexuality has no impact on how being a survivor should be viewed, as if being gay is evidence I some how wanted or enjoyed it.

Additionally, I wish people would understand that some adult males who continue to allow themselves to be abused by other men are often survivors of childhood abuse who do not know what to do with or relegate their feelings. Some may ask for it or accept it, but it is still hurting them in a way, whether they happen to admit it or not. Some may laugh about it, but inside they are still dying. I know so many like that.

I wish people would understand how we may desparately need and want love, want to have a relationship, express and receive affection sometimes. In this same vein, I know it is part of having difficulty dividing affectionate touches from sexual touches, because we were forced and confused by childhood abuse.

Like others have expressed: huge trust, touching and control issues. I can barely give or receive a hug from my son, who is the light of life, and it was utter agony to see the confusion in his face when he was younger.

This is a really, really big issue for me, and I hope those here can understand, but I am a writer and many of my characters are gay or are in gay situations or lifestyles. It is reflective of my own life, just as the stories often address adult men dealing with the after effects of abuse. One of the biggest problems I have, I must admit, and I've been vilified by some other writers for it, is these writers who portray male characters enjoying rape, or showing relationships as rape or non-com sex but where the man eventually submits, as being the average or norm in gay relationships. Often it is often portrayed that ejaculation means 'wanting it' and then the person will be submiss and fall in love into what was effectively their rapist. I know some may just say this is fiction, their fantasy, but some people believe it and it affects how they treat those who have really been abused!

I wish people, even rape groups and supporters and sorry some of the dreaded feminists who disbelieve men who've been raped as having the same negative aftereffects, would understand rape is terrible for anyone. After I was gang-raped I was referred by a well-meaning therapist to a rape survivor group. I was treated far worse by those women than any other place I've ever been or by those I've told. I was treated like filth, as told my presence was offensive. I attempted suicide after that and spend many more months in a psych hospital and it inhibited me from telling anyone or trying to get help for almost a decade.
_________________________
"Always be kinder than necessary, you never know what someone is going through."-Anonymous Quote

My website, Songs of the Universal Vagabond, http://redhaircrow.com/

My story on MS forums: http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=390668#Post390668

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#401576 - 06/24/12 05:07 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: theredhairedcrow]
WriterKeith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 952
Loc: southern California
Originally Posted By: theredhairedcrow
After I was gang-raped I was referred by a well-meaning therapist to a rape survivor group. I was treated far worse by those women than any other place I've ever been or by those I've told. I was treated like filth, as told my presence was offensive. I attempted suicide after that and spend many more months in a psych hospital and it inhibited me from telling anyone or trying to get help for almost a decade.


RHC, my jaw dropped when I reached this statement. I too was referred to a women's rape group to deal with my PTSD issues, the result of my being restrained, tortured, and raped by my father throughout my childhood. Hard to believe that, in the 21st century, 'professional' medical practices would refer male rape survivors to a women's rape group.

Your post is one of the most honest and eloquent posts I've seen on the site. Please post frequently, as you contribute a part of the conversation long overlooked.
_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#401624 - 06/24/12 11:57 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: theredhairedcrow]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: theredhairedcrow

I wish people, even rape groups and supporters and sorry some of the dreaded feminists who disbelieve men who've been raped as having the same negative aftereffects, would understand rape is terrible for anyone. After I was gang-raped I was referred by a well-meaning therapist to a rape survivor group. I was treated far worse by those women than any other place I've ever been or by those I've told. I was treated like filth, as told my presence was offensive. I attempted suicide after that and spend many more months in a psych hospital and it inhibited me from telling anyone or trying to get help for almost a decade.


I am so sorry you had to go through that in addition to the rape, which is horrible enough by itself. It is cruel whenever a survivor receives even more abuse but this time, it is abuse under the label of "professional help" and a "support group." When the "help" offered to survivors is more like abuse, who would be surprised if it is a hindrance to receiving more help.

It kind of bugs me that the field of advocacy for sexual abuse/assault victims seems to be synonymous with the feminist movement. Even a lot of the rhetoric aimed at male survivors seems to be geared toward the idea that there is somehow something wrong with a man wanting to be strong, powerful, and in control of himself. My T is always saying that I need to be more in touch with my feelings and accept that it is OK to be vulnerable. I guess he is trying to help me to understand that being raped doesn't make me less of a man, but why do I have to be a whiny little pansy in order to get that point? I don't know. Maybe this is a topic for a different thread.

I have heard from a lot of gay survivors that being gay adds another layer of guilt onto the experience of assault, because there is this idea that because one is gay they must have somehow wanted it. Which doesn't make any sense. Not all straight women are attracted to all men, yet it isn't assumed that since a women is straight, she must have "enjoyed" or "wanted" to be raped by a man. So many double standards.
_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

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#401661 - 06/25/12 10:32 AM * [Re: J.Bytendorp]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 2217
*


Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/28/13 06:02 PM)

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#401728 - 06/26/12 02:25 AM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: theredhairedcrow]
TheTwoOfUs Offline


Registered: 11/03/11
Posts: 149
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: theredhairedcrow
After I was gang-raped I was referred by a well-meaning therapist to a rape survivor group. I was treated far worse by those women than any other place I've ever been or by those I've told. I was treated like filth, as told my presence was offensive. I attempted suicide after that and spend many more months in a psych hospital and it inhibited me from telling anyone or trying to get help for almost a decade.


And this is EXACTLY why I held out for over a year about even DEALING with the rape. This is EXACTLY why I just about needed to be dragged by the arm into a therapist's office, and this is EXACTLY why I have NEVER tried to actually find one of these 'support' groups! This is it EXACTLY.

*sighs*

I'm so so SO sorry you had to deal with that kind of crap. It just makes an already bad situation even worse. The entire proffessional community really needs to start treating this issue with the same kind of seriousness as they treat the females. They don't send girls to a boys' support group for CSA, then why the HELL are they sending men to a women's support group for ASA?! This is simple logic!

I don't know. This has been a hot topic for me lately, so I have been trying to limit my posting on it. My own T openly stated he wasn't a specialist in my "area" but that he would try his best and that I could feel free to drop him at any time. And then went on to tell me that he would try to help me but that he is also looking to try and find a "specialist" to deal with me.

Rargh! And this guy is so far the ONLY one we've been to that I'm even partially comfortable in front of. Seriously. I feel like I'm taking the scraps left over from the evening meal because "at least it's something and something is better than nothing."

It pisses me off. Why the hell should we have to take hand-me-downs or less-than-we-need just because of our gender. No excuse. None. Society needs to get off it's collective duff and face the music eventually.

I was told very recently that I must not have fought hard enough if "let" them do that to me/us.

What the HELL?! I'm barely walking, mine and my sis's medical records could fill a couple of three inch binders from this assault, and someone - ANYONE - dares to even SUGGEST that I might not have fought 'hard enough', let alone suggest that I *LET* anyone do it?!

I quite literally decked the guy in the mouth. I knocked him right over off his feet before I left. I lost my temper. I keep expecting the cops to show up but they haven't yet, so maybe he won't be bothering to call them. I don't know. But I have about had it up to here with people treating this issue as a fucking joke or trying to sweep it under the rug.

There will be NO recognition if we don't TALK about it. So I have started to try and talk about it, at least a little bit. I know stuff like what was said to me will be par for the course for a while, but this particular individual KNEW better. He's known me for thirty fucking years of my life.

I wish to hell that anyone who hears the words "I was raped" out of someone's mouth would shut the hell up and LISTEN! Especially if those words are coming out of a man's mouth - we DON'T admit that crap easily or carelessly! If we're telling someone, it's because we have a huge amount of trust in them, that is sticking our necks WAY out there to be chopped off!

Sorry. I'll shut this off now. I think I'm ranting, and I sincerely apologize if I have been. Just very frustrated with this lately. I feel as though we are told on one hand to open our mouths and talk about it and then on the other hand the second we do we get slapped across the face and told that we aren't SUPPOSED to talk about it.

I think this is another thing that should go into the list of things I wish people knew about ASA. There are so damn many conflicting signals out there that at least for me, it's hard to tell what end is up and what end is down, and it's damn hard to figure out who I can trust enough to talk to, and it's confusing as HELL to figure out when I should talk and I when I should just shut up and put up with it.... *sighs*

Shutting up now.
_________________________
Matthew

Adapt. Overcome. Survive.

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#401795 - 06/26/12 02:30 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: TheTwoOfUs]
Tyr Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 180
today is a ROUGH day. I just want to cry. I... got into it a bit with my therapist who thought he was being supportive by talking about CSA and I shut him down. I firmly said NO

Its not the same and dont talk to me like a 5 yr old boy who is sitting ina therapist office pointing at a no no spot on a doll.

The guys that raped me were adult cowards with low level cunning and would absolutely lose a one on one fight with in person.

adult male rape is VIOLENT more often than not.
It is not being molested.
It was Rape. someones penis went in me without my consent.
thats not just getting felt up for a popsicle.

grrr sorry I agree with twoofus... i have no more faith in the MH system. It doesnt fix anything. its not even worth it to engage
_________________________
Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.

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#401855 - 06/26/12 11:56 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: Tyr]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: Tyr
today is a ROUGH day. I just want to cry. I... got into it a bit with my therapist who thought he was being supportive by talking about CSA and I shut him down. I firmly said NO

Its not the same and dont talk to me like a 5 yr old boy who is sitting ina therapist office pointing at a no no spot on a doll.

The guys that raped me were adult cowards with low level cunning and would absolutely lose a one on one fight with in person.

adult male rape is VIOLENT more often than not.
It is not being molested.
It was Rape. someones penis went in me without my consent.
thats not just getting felt up for a popsicle.

grrr sorry I agree with twoofus... i have no more faith in the MH system. It doesnt fix anything. its not even worth it to engage


I can relate to a lot of what you've said here. I was raped by one guy and not a group, but I have thought a lot about how if I didn't have the type of medical issues I have, I could have taken him on. He was out of shape and the reason why he was able to do what he did was because of his position of being a healthcare worker, and also the fact that I was too weak to defend myself at that point in my life. There were other points in my life where I was athletic and could have taken him on no problem. I could see how, if you were attacked by a group of people, you would go over the scenario of being attacked by someone individually. Even if I was really in shape I couldn't imagine having to defend myself against a group of marauders.

I can also understand taking offense at a therapist trying to fit your experience into a different "box." I know most of the survivors my T works with have CSA and there have been times when I think he has tried to approach my issues in this way. They don't know any other way of doing things and I can understand why you would be angry, especially if he knows your story well and has been working with you for awhile. The methods he proably employed probably would work well for a CSA survivor but for you, it wasn't what you needed because your problems are fundamentally different.

I personally think my therapist is a good guy and I respect the fact that he really tries to help me. The fact that he believes me and affirms me in spite of what has happened means a lot... but I don't think he always has the right tools in his toolbox for the job. It's like going to a dentist's office and having him try to fix a cavity with a hot glue gun.
_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

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#401895 - 06/27/12 08:07 AM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
When a man who has been through CSA states that his abuse is worse than mine I cringe. When a man who has been through ASA says his abuse is worse than the man who has experienced CSA I also cringe.

In the last couple of years I have cringed quite often.

I honestly do not know why anyone would categorize pain like that.

I have felt slighted by comments made in the last few years and have seen men who went through ASA slight those who experienced CSA.

I do not think either are necessary or should be tolerated. What one wants from others one must be willing to give. And above all else I would certainly think respect and understanding would be at the top of the list.

Perhaps I am as naive as some have told me.


Daryl


Edited by prisonerID (06/27/12 12:43 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#401905 - 06/27/12 09:09 AM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
Obi Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 1372
Loc: kansas
i may have to join in you in the naive department d...

i agree with you... when i first came to ms, and read many of the stories in the survivor stories section, i thought "why am i even here?"... " my abuse wasn't as bad, as horrid, as violent as many of these guys."... i felt like i didn't belong here because i read the stories that made me feel like my abuse was a walk in the park....

but that's when many of the guys said to me abuse is abuse....

that we shouldn't put other's, or even ourselves, abuse on different levels.. who had it worse.... *shakes head*....

IT DOESN'T MATTER!

we've all been abused... we should be helping one another... not dividing each other up....

let's start respecting each other and help each other....
_________________________
live another day. climb a little higher.

my story

my vlog

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#401927 - 06/27/12 12:25 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
J.Bytendorp Offline
User
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/09/09
Posts: 43
Loc: Salt Lake CIty, Utah
Thank you all for your support and your words, I think you are all very amazing for your willingness to speak out about your experience and what you need. It can by very scary and stressful to open and get the support and help that we may need. I remember when I first started my healing process and how I felt that my story was so unique and different that no one could understand me. I had friends tell me their stories of abuse, I went to a support group for male survivors and heard their stories and disengaged and at times dissociated because of my feelings. Even though my feelings were valid at that time, it was a crutch that I used to keep myself in a safe place. Healing can be difficult one thing that I was reminded of was that everyone's story is unique, no matter what your story is the pain is real. I now realize that from my perspective, even two ASA's stories are going to be different let alone any other survivors. Doesn't make it better or worse more sever or less, rape and sexual assault is rape and sexual assault no matter who you are.

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#402852 - 07/07/12 09:42 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
Tyr Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 180
true J.but statistics indicate adult survivors of adult assault experience a life and death scenario more than csa. it didnt help me when my therapist who meant well tried to equate me to a 5 yr old. it comes off as a tad patronizing.
_________________________
Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.

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#402877 - 07/08/12 11:39 AM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: prisonerID]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1443
Originally Posted By: prisonerID
When a man who has been through CSA states that his abuse is worse than mine I cringe. When a man who has been through ASA says his abuse is worse than the man who has experienced CSA I also cringe.

In the last couple of years I have cringed quite often.

I honestly do not know why anyone would categorize pain like that.

I have felt slighted by comments made in the last few years and have seen men who went through ASA slight those who experienced CSA.

I do not think either are necessary or should be tolerated. What one wants from others one must be willing to give. And above all else I would certainly think respect and understanding would be at the top of the list.

Perhaps I am as naive as some have told me.

Daryl

I could not have stated it better. I have read through this thread a few times and wasn't going to add anything to it, but in contrast to the sentiment expressed above, one particular post really stood out (italicization added)...

Quote:
adult male rape is VIOLENT more often than not.
It is not being molested.
It was Rape. someones penis went in me without my consent.
thats not just getting felt up for a popsicle.


I am not going to comment further on this one - I think the statement stands on its own and exemplifies one of the reasons I don't always feel welcome on this side of town.
_________________________
Eirik




Click my pic to see why I'm here

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#402934 - 07/08/12 09:48 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: Chase Eric]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: Chase Eric
Originally Posted By: prisonerID
When a man who has been through CSA states that his abuse is worse than mine I cringe. When a man who has been through ASA says his abuse is worse than the man who has experienced CSA I also cringe.

In the last couple of years I have cringed quite often.

I honestly do not know why anyone would categorize pain like that.

I have felt slighted by comments made in the last few years and have seen men who went through ASA slight those who experienced CSA.

I do not think either are necessary or should be tolerated. What one wants from others one must be willing to give. And above all else I would certainly think respect and understanding would be at the top of the list.

Perhaps I am as naive as some have told me.

Daryl

I could not have stated it better. I have read through this thread a few times and wasn't going to add anything to it, but in contrast to the sentiment expressed above, one particular post really stood out (italicization added)...

Quote:
adult male rape is VIOLENT more often than not.
It is not being molested.
It was Rape. someones penis went in me without my consent.
thats not just getting felt up for a popsicle.


I am not going to comment further on this one - I think the statement stands on its own and exemplifies one of the reasons I don't always feel welcome on this side of town.


it's important to be respectful of the experiences of others, even if they are different or we don't understand. We can point out the differences.... like ASA is often very violent, and in contrast, CSA often has the appearance of being a trusting relationship between an adult and a child, when underneath it is anything but. One often involves luring and grooming, and the other often involves brute force. Both are traumas that affect male survivors and we should avoid using phrases like "worse than" or "just ____'ed" No one is ever "just" sexually abused.
_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

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#403049 - 07/09/12 06:43 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: CruxFidelis]
Tyr Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 180
true. but why is it that in the adult forum, we keep having to focus on that (CSA). This should be for adults about adult trauma. and it never is. nearly every time csa matters hijack the threads. to be blunt, without offending... the CSA issue here is like a vortex. im not sure what more can be done. they have over 10 different forums here for their own issues. why cant this forum maintain its clear boundary for the few of us adults that are working on adult matters?
_________________________
Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.

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#403113 - 07/10/12 08:17 AM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
men_of_hrts.dbw Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 302
Loc: Orchidland Big Island Hawaii
Tyr...It pisses me off. Ditto. Always the same instigators too.
Topics and comments with CSA comparisions should be removed by the forum moderator so we ASA members can have a SAFE place.
This is a unhealthy forum but l have nowhere else..I've looked.
I wonder if maybe this forum were restricted to ASA only...not dual CSA/ASA but only men with adult (16 YO) who were assaulted after their sexuality has been established.
Then threads with CSA issues immediatly be removed to the Male Survivor forum.
We need a safe forum.
My two best peer supporters of ASA who l used to communicate with here are gone...and others like me just felt bullied off the ASA Forum.
I even removed a non-conflictive beautiful post titled; Farewell, because l received PM's that hurt just prior from a CSA/ASA survivor. I reported it to Walking South and was told l could be banned for 30 days.
I conceded...l do not fight here.
I was even called a ds which is code l guess for "dick sucker"
_________________________
Doug>ASA Survivor (1x)
ECV 6001/MaTuCa Chapter 1849
E Clampus Vitus
"What Say the Brethren"
"Hang the Bastards"

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#403170 - 07/10/12 03:24 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: Obi]
Tyr Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 180
because the same guys constantly instigate. they HAVE to be heard about their childhood stuff. and what you want to say you can't say. but it does NOT inspire confidence to hear them going from thread to thread talking about abuse is abuse. let this forum have its specific scope. Please, with respect I dont think its fair that they hijack everything. it distracts from real healing when we have to constantly remind CSA folk that they have 10 forums other than here to work thru their things. please let this place be specific in scope and allow for adult men to heal from adult issues. there are many other places for the other stuff. - let us have this.


Edited by Tyr (07/10/12 03:25 PM)
_________________________
Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.

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#403175 - 07/10/12 04:02 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
peroperic2009 Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 3617
Loc: South-East Europe
Hey guys, it really hurts seeing you (ASA brothers) in kind of isolation here, that really makes me sad.
Would be helpful that you make new thread like this: instructions for people posting in ASA or something like that?
And maybe write "non official" sort of guidelines for all of us here to act in desirable manner?
You could write there all what is on your mind, for example:
we don't want term CSA to be mentioned under this forum there are other forums specifically related to CSA problematic or
we don't want to make any comparison ASA-CSA survivors here and so on.
Would that be helpful at all?
I think that many guys are not aware of your problems and that you feel very isolated here (and in chat room too).
Some of survivors would certainly follow your wishes how to talk/write here, I'm sure in that.
Men_of_hrts.dbw I didn't notice that you deleted one of the most beautiful posts here - Firewall, just by reading your descriptions of nature, flowers, sounds of birds in trees and your insights to some specific moments like sunrise gave me feeling like being on Hawaiian island and I really liked that frown
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My story

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#403181 - 07/10/12 05:25 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: peroperic2009]
TheTwoOfUs Offline


Registered: 11/03/11
Posts: 149
Loc: USA
Peroperic,

The point is why should we have to set up a specific thread, in the ASA FORUM, to pertain to ASA needs and healing, when the ASA Forum is supposed to be doing that?

I do feel VERY isolated here MUCH of thet time. It is part of why I post so sporadically and rarely.

I also feel this same isolation in chat, which is why I am not in chat very often.

I come in and read. I rarely post.

I do not begrudge ANYONE the need for healing.
Abuse is abuse. Yes.
Rape is rape. Yes.

But the ASA forum should be (at least how I perceive the forum's intent) for discussing issues associated with ADULT sexual assault and rape.

For folks who have experienced both, I would hope that they would discuss their CSA issues in CSA-geared folders, and their ASA issues in the ASA geared folder.

I am not trying to insult, offend, belittle, or upset anyone.

But this is how I feel.

Thanks.
_________________________
Matthew

Adapt. Overcome. Survive.

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#403184 - 07/10/12 06:12 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: TheTwoOfUs]
peroperic2009 Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 3617
Loc: South-East Europe
Hey Mathew,
I'm not sure was that about new post at all good idea but I'll try to explain why I wrote it.
It seems to me that some people are easily forgotten and they are talking only and exclusively by its perspective and by doing so obviously hurting some of you guys here making your free space at this forum for ASA men even smaller.
I'm sure that some folks are not aware of their actions and maybe written information would be more easily understood for them.
Secondly some of ASA people have for sometime been moved to let say kind of underground at MS, they are felt forgotten, unheard and at the end prohibited to talk openly about some their issues (I'm not familiar with specific history but this what I said are facts).
So if we would like to make more than clear what is all this about and what you brothers need in this forum; and it is obvious that officially framework is set from beginning (and you guys are still hurt by talks about issues that are not directly connected to ASA problematic) it seems to me good idea to put list of instructions for good behavior for people who are posting here? This is just my thinking aloud.
I mean there are regular talks in some posts about these issues in ASA forum but at MS there is some dynamics, new people are coming and some mistakes could be repeating purely because it is not "clear enough" that this is space for themes related to your problems guys? And why not to write your wishes how others should behave in this forum with goal to make you feel more accepted here?
Above all this, it seems to me that many survivors (all: ASA and CSA) are let say "stubborn" sometimes (very lightly said) and very difficult to handle bunch of people so it might be needed more than explicitly to give instructions of desirable behavior in try to change this culture of not caring and not tolerating others.
I'm not sure does all this what I said have sense but you guys have my full support.
I will certainly try in future to look for themes and articles that could be interesting for ASA men and post it here.
Be well!
Pero
_________________________
My story

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#403206 - 07/10/12 08:53 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: peroperic2009]
Tyr Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 180
this periopic is a cut ans paste of the guideline right in the forum for the ASA forum

Gentlemen, Please remember that this forum is about Adult Sexual Assault, ASA, and not Child Sexual Abuse, CSA. While there may well be a certain amount of discussion of the differing or similar impacts of either as a topic unfolds, please do not "hijack" a thread in this forum from discussions of ASA to that of CSA. Thanks.4r
_________________________
Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.

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#403244 - 07/11/12 07:24 AM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
peroperic2009 Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 3617
Loc: South-East Europe
Thanks Tyr,
here is cut/past sentence from introduction part of this forum:
"This forum is a place where male survivors who have been sexually abused or assaulted as adults can come to discuss their experiences and issues and seek support from fellow adult abuse survivors."

I hope we all will follow these instructions more promptly and make you guys feel more accepted here smile
And as I wouldn't like to hijack this thread I'd like if conversation could proceed further about stuff that we other should know about ASA.
Pero
_________________________
My story

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#403288 - 07/11/12 12:33 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
J.Bytendorp Offline
User
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/09/09
Posts: 43
Loc: Salt Lake CIty, Utah
Thank you guys for your willingness to be open about this topic. It is a concern that myself and the other moderators have been discussing. Sadly, it is hard to set up block for only ASA to access the forum because we never know peoples background. I try to read through the posts twice a week and try to get rid of comments that compare or minimize the ASA community. Please let me know how I can be of more support to you so you feel comfortable and safe opening up in this forum. If I do miss a post, please feel free to let me know. I admit that sometimes I read things and view it differently than some other people. We are all survivors here and even among the ASA our experiences are different, my experience as an ASA is different than all of yours and well all need different things to heal.

For those who are CSA and for everyone, there are guidelines established for post, please read and familiarize yourself with them.

Joshua Bytendorp

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#403293 - 07/11/12 12:56 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
Tyr Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 180
its a delicate line and thanks for opening the line of communication. i guess something needs to occur because matthews post sums it up forme too. ive been coming here for months and i see guys view but rarely post. and then there are a few guys with csa issues that come here and i think they are trying to seek something that theyre not getting or not getting enough of from the ten plus forums with sub threads and topics and they pick fights or say they "had no idea" and then we feel as adult survivors a tad more on the defense. it makes a circular loop in which people feel less apt to post... we are men and experienced fairly recent trauma, violent more likely than not, and i cant speak for others but when i send concerns to Modteam, i never get a reply even on acute things so... i dont know. we really need to have this be a place for us. if we constantly have to re explain csa v asa it makes it a serious distraction bordering on detriment for betterment of asa matters.

does that make sense
_________________________
Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.

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#403294 - 07/11/12 01:01 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
SamV Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5945
Loc: Talladega, Alabama, USA
I wish others would know that my intensity in expressing anger and resentment, in uncertainty, in fear and hesitation was temporary. So many times I became anxious about a situation or challenge that turned into hesitation, stress and anger and I would snarl at the hands of those who would support me. If I could have only told them I could not do what they were asking, that I was uncomfortable or unwilling with enough resolution that they would ask someone else, or better yet, do what they wanted themselves.

Yet time and again, feelings of responsibility and a desire to lead others put me in situations that overwhelmed me, and I let some down. I felt regret that I chose a negative emotional response instead of verbalizing my discomfort. I gave them no choice. I was their leader, their model and when I said "no", they were crushed. I set myself up as the provider, when I really wished they had seen my hurt and pain, the abuse I suffered when I was sure of myself, when I was confident in my own abilities.

I wish I would have shown them that, and I wish they would have seen it. I am glad I did finally. Some see it now, thankfully. Some do not, so be it.

Sam
_________________________
MaleSurvivor Moderator Emeritus 2012 - 2014

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#403299 - 07/11/12 01:28 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: SamV]
Tyr Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 180
back on actual topic.

i wish that others could look at me as a person,
i wish that people could understand what its like when you give a fight your all and its not enough.
i wish others could try and realize... Im an adult and help me heal with patience rather than platitudes.

I wish I could be invisible and not deal with it at all.

I wish many things. but i know many wont happen.
_________________________
Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.

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#403422 - 07/12/12 04:34 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
WriterKeith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 952
Loc: southern California
Tyr,
Your post is superb. Your words are worth publishing.

I am glad to see this thread alive and active.
_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#403435 - 07/12/12 06:49 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
men_of_hrts.dbw Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 302
Loc: Orchidland Big Island Hawaii
I wish:
•professionals did not think l was bi-courious or hussling same sex encounters
*I was walking down the street at 11AM on a October morning in 1977
•"he would have to kill me first" did not apply
*I grew up tough very street wise and exposed to life beyond my peers. At 16 years old l was living in the Alaska, had been in the bush for five years and when my family moved to Redondo Beach in So. California l stayed for another nine months alone..went to school and lived without parental supervision or contact untill rejoining the family. I dropped school because l had lived beyond my peers and began working full time at Kings Marina doing restoration on sailboat woodwork..I earned $1.50 an hour in Febuary 1975, I drank beer l bought and had money from side jobs too...when l joined the Marine Corps in August 1975 I was earning $4.50 on the boats and contracting wood finishing and painting work..l'd ride my bike, hitch or have mom drive me...I had to go thru some tough neighborhoods and sometimes bus routes would take me into/out of bad ones. I was a tough, confident and story telling kid...people liked me. In the Marines my nickname in bootcamp was Smiley. My first station, Marine Barracks was in the triple canopy jungle at Subic Bay Philippines patrolling and catching armed intruders in the Naval Magazine..ammunitions storage...and in Olongapo City it was triple-sex..not just a district...this whole town was fuck city and rough. If l wanted same sex encounters it was very common and available. I hooked and jabbed the whole Luzon island from street level...From the Makati District to the provinces..did the whole Battan Hwy on public bus viewing WW ll memorials...the Death Hwy. None of my peers did that shit. When l got drunk one night and picked up a street walker, lower than a club girl, it turned out to be a Bennie Boy..he/she was sucking my dick when l realized it and l pounded him one..others came in the room..like more than six..l had one down and picked up a fan then offensively got the fuck out of there. It was after curfew, martial law..l shadowed my way back towards base..saw a shore patrol van and stepped out...they took me back to the rooming house and confirmed what happened. We laughed about it on the ride to the Main Gate..l walked the ten miles back to Cubi Pt. and the next day we laughed about it as it was retold to my buddies. When l got back to America I volunteered and was accepted into the toughest field unit the Marine Corps has, 1st Recon Battalion. Hazing in this place usually resulted in blood shirts and bruises of Honor...l was trained in tough ass shit offensive, defensive and mental/physical endurance. I knew limitation and strength..how to create it.
Then in October 1977 everything l knew instinctively or learned made me ready to survive a deception as l walked down the street in San Clemente California..false trust from a normal looking man who needed help..a ruse...and l poured up a drink he had in the car myself. The Vodka or the bottle of orange juice was laced with barbituates. On the second glass l blacked-out.
Many hours later l came aware..my Moment of Doom...my first thought was l am drugged, going to be raped and likely end up dead. I was still in the car, it was dark and l unwillingly complied. Survival mode when fight or flight is not an option is redline/flatline shit the mind and body must deal with.
I remember a few months later wanting to kill him, track him down..it would have been easy..l knew where he fucking lived. l knew he had killed others..he talked about it. What he did to me..the evidence on my body included bite/burn.(Some of you know that five years ago l found out he killed sixty-seven known and is on death row..caught May 1983 driving at 1AM with a dead Marine)
Even now at 54 years old l am a tough MF'er.
I tell when asked why l did not fight back..I did and l won. Then they ask how and l explain what to do when deadly assaults occure, before it becomes a reality.
•sex crime victim mentality
*Moments after disclosure l asked myself in utter flatline...Why didn't l tell someone?
I distinctly recalled during the silent ride back, after the night of terror l was thinking...How am I not going to tell anyone what happened! l lied about the evidence and said l was at an orgy yet l incorporated actual events of the abduction. After leaving the Marines the version changed to I Got Away but incorporated the truth and fiction.
Fucked up thing is all those thirty years everyone believed the lies..then when l disclosed and confronted many did not believe me..especially the U.S. Gov/Veterans Mental Health people.
Everyone else knows its the truth..can't fake the end result.
•other men knew professional and peer surpport is available
* Nothing worse than needing therapy for previous therapy. There are great therapists and then there are harmful therapists out there. I wish l had known what to do after disclosure. I didn't find this site until after confrontation and over a year past disclosure..by then l had done everything wrong. I was a bigger mess.

Thanks JB for stepping up and taking responsibility as Mod for the ASA Forum. When l read the announcement l was courious...the forum was failing and so since l had never seen any posts or replies..like you just popped in..l was leary and since your Story was not available l googled your name.
I found your off-site advocacy and support an affirmation that you will move this online forum to a healthy and safe place for ASA members. So thanks for all you do in both realms.
_________________________
Doug>ASA Survivor (1x)
ECV 6001/MaTuCa Chapter 1849
E Clampus Vitus
"What Say the Brethren"
"Hang the Bastards"

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#403531 - 07/13/12 05:56 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
men_of_hrts.dbw Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 302
Loc: Orchidland Big Island Hawaii
•just get over it
* When someone says this l tell them l got over it for three decades and then l just couldn't handle it any longer and now l am getting thru it.

I recall when l first heard The Eagles song, Get Over It. That was just last summer a year ago. It first mad me mad and sad. Now after countless times hearing it on purpose, sometimes over and over on the computer, phone or MP3 it has become a milestone in this journey.
I also listen to Eagles, Learn To Be Still.

_________________________
Doug>ASA Survivor (1x)
ECV 6001/MaTuCa Chapter 1849
E Clampus Vitus
"What Say the Brethren"
"Hang the Bastards"

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#403634 - 07/14/12 05:16 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
dancr6 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/07
Posts: 383
Loc: georgia
"Desperado" was another good Eagles song for us.( at least me)
_________________________
I'm a freeman now, his authority's dead
no pain monger lies in my comfortable bed!

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#403638 - 07/14/12 05:40 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
men_of_hrts.dbw Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 302
Loc: Orchidland Big Island Hawaii
Plus Joe Walsh has that "24 Hours A Day" song...l saw it on video. l think the title is, "One Day At A Time"
_________________________
Doug>ASA Survivor (1x)
ECV 6001/MaTuCa Chapter 1849
E Clampus Vitus
"What Say the Brethren"
"Hang the Bastards"

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#403700 - 07/15/12 03:59 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
Tyr Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 180
h

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#403701 - 07/15/12 04:06 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
Tyr Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 180
h

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#403740 - 07/15/12 11:00 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
J.Bytendorp Offline
User
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/09/09
Posts: 43
Loc: Salt Lake CIty, Utah
Sorry that it has taken me a bit to get back, I hear what you are saying and I am open to feedback. Tyr, I understand that it would be hard when you open up and try to get support and you don't get a response. I know it is hard but please trust me and give me a chance.

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#404345 - 07/22/12 11:19 AM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
Tyr Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 180
Thanks Josh, but note does it say something when this kind of subject goes "viewed" but unreplied by other guys here for an entire week? something needs to be done to make this an Asa FOCUSED forum.
_________________________
Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.

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#404346 - 07/22/12 11:22 AM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
SamV Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5945
Loc: Talladega, Alabama, USA
What do you mean by "focused", Tyr?
_________________________
MaleSurvivor Moderator Emeritus 2012 - 2014

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#404350 - 07/22/12 11:51 AM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
Tyr Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 180
meaning a protected forum would be reallly nice. but read my PM for more.
_________________________
Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.

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#404354 - 07/22/12 12:24 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
SamV Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5945
Loc: Talladega, Alabama, USA
Ah, got it. I read your PM and have replied, you summed it up well thanks.

While there are "commonalities" in abuse recovery, to include all survivors of male abuse as being "similar" is a gross over-simplification of the issues of ASA. Therapists and supporters need new concepts, new exercises and new processes to interact with the contention of adult male abuse recovery concerns. Male child abuse recovery is separated from female child abuse recovery, although they both share recovery techniques, they are not mutually connected or exclusive, each is unique in presentation, in context and in results. Nevertheless, a female sexual abuse therapist it has been witnessed may not be well equipped to correctly identify the needs and therapy for a male survivor, and so too for those who wish to provide therapy and support for adult males of sexual abuse. Each abuse survivor will react differently, few like to be labelled or categorized, so to put male adult sexual abuse recovery issues in the context of any other form of abuse recovery feels like a marginalization of the issues.

I am concerned, however, that a locked or private forum may be missed by those abused as adults coming here to find relief. Since the inception of this forum many more have joined and found this because of it's public position. Secondly, MaleSurvivor as a site has no restrictions for male survivors, any male survivor can go into any public forum, and member's can go into public and member's forums at will, and as long as the guidelines are followed, they can post or reply. Creating such a place for this topic may require substantial reorganization, and the potential missed opportunities may outweigh the benefits.

Please read my reply and perhaps we can come to some conclusions that would be beneficial,

Sam
_________________________
MaleSurvivor Moderator Emeritus 2012 - 2014

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#404384 - 07/22/12 04:11 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: Tyr]
recreated Offline


Registered: 07/22/12
Posts: 1
Loc: Texas
Tyr,
I am new here and I am a survivor of sexual abuse. Yours was the first thing I read that had to do with internal feelings and in your case darkness. I associated with it because about 5 yrs ago I wrote a similar in feeling post on a suicide website ash bus stop or something lie that( the site no longer exists). Mine depicted me as a ship on a dark sea with weathered paint and wet splintering wood in which the rusty broken nails were loose or missing.The site stopped abruptly so I don't have that to share and maybe that's a good thing because I hope today you feel better.
I think on some level healing doesn't begin unless I am in touch with my pain. Pain definetly has the ability to be destructive but it can also be a good motivator if I try not to stay in it alone and long.
I don't know you but then again I know something about you. For me sexual abuse was not a choice but someone told me I chose to be alone. Internally I did not receive this well but I make the effort the best I can to let that not be a reality in my life today. Sometimes when 'normal' people spend time around me regularly and they notice or I think they notice some of the effects from SA I feel the need to explain. I think the miracle for me is that it didn't seem to make any difference to them maybe because I invested the time I could to be concerned with their lives as I've shared some parts of mine.
What I wish other people knew about ASA is that it is a challenge, like others, that seeks to consume from a place so ingrained in human nature that there is not only the difficulty in resisting the fallout from it, but also in finding the desire to confront it and the will to be productive after it.

Best Wishes recreated


Edited by recreated (07/22/12 04:13 PM)
Edit Reason: decided to sign with user name instead of real name

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#404391 - 07/22/12 05:06 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
peroperic2009 Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 3617
Loc: South-East Europe
Hi Recreated and welcome to Male survivor !
Please keep sharing with us and try to connect to brothers survivors here. It seems that you found your way to confront your past in productive way; you have a lot to offer to others smile
Being part of this community added immensely to my haling/recovery, I hope it will do same to you.
Be well!
Pero
_________________________
My story

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#405106 - 07/28/12 10:47 AM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
Tyr Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 180


Edited by Tyr (10/30/12 06:21 PM)
_________________________
Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.

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#405207 - 07/29/12 12:59 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
bodyguard8367 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1159
Loc: ""
""


Edited by bodyguard8367 (02/26/14 07:33 PM)
Edit Reason: SILENCED

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#405997 - 08/06/12 11:28 AM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: bodyguard8367]
Tyr Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 180

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#425712 - 02/18/13 02:37 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
ThisMan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/22/13
Posts: 767
Loc: upper south
"For folks who have experienced both, I would hope that they would discuss their CSA issues in CSA-geared folders, and their ASA issues in the ASA geared folder."

....





Edited by ThisMan (07/10/13 07:00 PM)
_________________________
For now we see through a glass, darkly.



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#427128 - 03/04/13 09:02 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: ThisMan]
Tyr Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 180
hi there. just read your post and you make some good points. but where there are multiple sites and forum threads for male CSA on this and other sites. this is the only forum of its kind for adult male survivors. no one is saying one is worse than another. But there have been times where guys working on cSA matters have "overstepped" into this forum and the term csa hijacking for better or worse was coined. a good forum that may be a compromise for you is the malesurvivors thread.

regards
_________________________
Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.

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#427136 - 03/04/13 09:47 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
J.Bytendorp Offline
User
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/09/09
Posts: 43
Loc: Salt Lake CIty, Utah
We all have to remember that many CSA members are sexually abused as adults. I don't think there is anything wrong with someone who has both ASA and CSA to share their experience, because after all they are ASA brothers as well. The CSA and the ASA are both part of who they are and they can't be seperated because for healing you have to deal with both together. We have to welcome those with who have experienced both ASA and CSA and not turn them away.

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#427137 - 03/04/13 09:47 PM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
J.Bytendorp Offline
User
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/09/09
Posts: 43
Loc: Salt Lake CIty, Utah
We all have to remember that many CSA members are sexually abused as adults. I don't think there is anything wrong with someone who has both ASA and CSA to share their experience, because after all they are ASA brothers as well. The CSA and the ASA are both part of who they are and they can't be seperated because for healing you have to deal with both together. We have to welcome those with who have experienced both ASA and CSA and not turn them away.

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#427152 - 03/05/13 12:18 AM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
Tyr Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 180
from wlakingsouth and in the locked section. Hi Josh I certainly dont think anyone wish to segregate per se, but this forum was supposed to be for ASA focus and the guidelines were specific. obviously overlap can occur but sometimesin asa threads a csa personw as totally hijacking the thread to dicuss their own childhood things and it was haoppening constantly. i am citing the moderator in the locked thread. but of course we seek your guidance and advice for that balance. i just would hate to see this become yet another csa forum when they have the male survivors board and others here too. just my food for thought.

"Gentlemen, Please remember that this forum is about Adult Sexual Assault, ASA, and not Child Sexual Abuse, CSA. While there may well be a certain amount of discussion of the differing or similar impacts of either as a topic unfolds, please do not "hijack" a thread in this forum from discussions of ASA to that of CSA. Thanks.:


Edited by Tyr (03/05/13 12:26 AM)
_________________________
Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.

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#427157 - 03/05/13 12:47 AM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
J.Bytendorp Offline
User
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/09/09
Posts: 43
Loc: Salt Lake CIty, Utah
Tyr,

I don't think that someone who shares their experience of being sexually abused as an adult and a child is breaking any of the guildlines or hijacking a thread. They are not comparing CSA to ASA or making comparison just seeking support from others who share similar experience, not as a male survivor but as an ASA.

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#427160 - 03/05/13 01:00 AM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
ThisMan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/22/13
Posts: 767
Loc: upper south

...'While there may well be a certain amount of discussion of the differing or similar impacts of either as a topic unfolds, please do not "hijack" a thread in this forum from discussions of ASA to that of CSA. Thanks.".....

Thanks, Tyr, for recommending a compromise for me. I didn't realize one was needed. I was also unaware that the mention of CSA was forbidden.

I did not see that in the copy and paste you presented. Unless I miss something, which is possible, I read it to say "a certain amount of discussion of the differing or similar impacts of either as a topic unfolds".

I do see the request not to hijack a thread, and I am certain I did not do that.
_________________________
For now we see through a glass, darkly.



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#427362 - 03/07/13 04:18 AM Re: What do you wish other people knew about ASA [Re: J.Bytendorp]
Tyr Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 180
no one said a mention of csa was 'forbidden'

what was said is that although some overlap occurs with asa and csa, mindfulness is important to avoid hijacking threads from csa survivors.
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Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.

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