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#393358 - 04/13/12 09:10 PM Homophobia Is Close to Home
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 393
Loc: west coast
This was just published the other day. It basically says if you have a parent specifically father that was Authoritarian overbearing /hyperdogmatic and unaccepting of the childs core sense of self. This child is more likely to grow up homophobic due to a real reaction to an internalized fight against their repressed self. http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/psp/102/4/815/

Their implicit orientation(gay) is repressed and squelched by an explicit orientation( hyper not gay). So to distance themselves as far away from the possibility that they could even admit it to themselves let alone others, the boy/man does an external 180.
CBC explains it a little less technically here:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-5...study-suggests/
The point is, curing gay or not accepting gayness may be a way the boy/man causes a defensive mechanism called " REACTION FORMATION" . This is where there is such an inner conflict the the anxiety producing unacceptable emotions and impulses are mastered by exageration of the opposite tendency.

Holy cow, this is the same week the guy who wrote the book on ex-gay finally recanted saying he got it wrong. Which was posted in the lgbt forum buy Markk
http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/...grams_Can_Work/

So here we have a link showing these two things are linked. Does anyone think Bachman and that ilk are NOT gay? Guys like Ted Haggard preaching against gays, oh and the rent boy thing with you know who. There have been many, cuz its a part of whole - I need to prove I am not gay so I will hurt those guys so "real" guys can see I am not one of the "them".

It is time to finally put all the Ex -gay stuff to bed.

Its not that your father didnt bond with you, its he didnt accept you as you were/are. Further maybe cuz he didnt accept himself. Your experience may have been his inner hatred turned against you with tragic results.

This further supports a study published in scientific american which ironically mirrors shakespeare's quote about protesting too much. So isnt that what ex-gay bs is ? Protesting too much. Men and women comfortable in their identity and sexuality couldnt care less about who someone else sleeps with.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=single-angry-straight-male

I am not saying men with attraction towards other men are necessarily gay, but if this has been an issue, Then there is at least the possibility that the boy/man is gay. Whether the attraction towards males is wanted or not. And honestly - ITS OK.


Edited by 1lifenow (04/16/12 10:41 AM)
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The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

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#393417 - 04/14/12 08:41 AM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
I wholeheartedly disagree with your conclusion. I don't believe one man's opinion - one day one thing, one day another (changed due to old age and fear of a bad legacy maybe?) means more than one man's opinion.

I don't believe its as simple as you might put it. Besides, there is a complete lack of scientific agreement/basis for the roots of orientation. It is generally accepted that it is a combo of nature/nurture, not just nature.

I don't believe in calling the movement ex-gay. I think that's a problem. I think its about all men, whether at one time gay-oriented or not, finding comfort in being able to move toward sexual wholeness regardless of whether the outcome is somehow threatening to certain groups heavily invested in confirming their own beliefs (beliefs, not facts).

I feel strongly on this topic and will always counter what I consider too much one-sidedness on the issue of orientation. However, it is not done with hostility.




Edited by EdfromNYC (04/14/12 10:07 AM)
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#393689 - 04/16/12 10:36 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: EdfromNYC]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 393
Loc: west coast
I appreciate your response Ed, I respect others views and your remarks are valuable.

I wanted to go throught your response a little more thoroughly so I can understand it better.
Originally Posted By: EdfromNYC
I wholeheartedly disagree with your conclusion. I don't believe one man's opinion - one day one thing, one day another (changed due to old age and fear of a bad legacy maybe?) means more than one man's opinion.

Ed i am not sure what conclusion you disagree with. One mans opinion changing is not what happened here. He is the author the has written a treatise that is used as a basis and justification for a viewpoint. The scientfic method holds that when new evidence is presented that an author is justified in changing the original conclusion. His work was not written in stone.

Its very similar to Mike Wallace from 60 minutes when they did the first tv story on gay men in America. He later retracted it, saying that he was just going on what the Drs and the time said. http://www.edgeonthenet.com/news/national/news//131887/mike_wallace’s_death_brings_back_a_notorious_cbs_anti-gay_documentary_ "I should have known better" he later said.

Originally Posted By: EdfromNYC
I don't believe its as simple as you might put it. Besides, there is a complete lack of scientific agreement/basis for the roots of orientation. It is generally accepted that it is a combo of nature/nurture, not just nature.

I did not say that it was just nature, I only said that given this set of circumstances and given the evidence coming to light through objective observation, that it is certainly a possibility and may account for some confusion of orienation.
Originally Posted By: EdfromNYC
I don't believe in calling the movement ex-gay. I think that's a problem. I think its about all men, whether at one time gay-oriented or not, finding comfort in being able to move toward sexual wholeness regardless of whether the outcome is somehow threatening to certain groups heavily invested in confirming their own beliefs (beliefs, not facts).

I feel strongly on this topic and will always counter what I consider too much one-sidedness on the issue of orientation. However, it is not done with hostility.

The term Ex-gay is from the movement itself, i am not calling them that , they are. But i agree, its about men coming to terms with sexuality and achieving sexual wholeness. Thats the goal for all of us.

There is no threatening by a group "heavily invested in confirming their own beliefs". These studies were published in peer reviewed journals, thats is the scientific process. And again i am not sure what you mean beliefs not facts. Not sure what your referring to here. I take it to mean that is it an opinion that these men who are homophobic actually have attraction to other males. That is a fact, not a belief.

The study does not differentiate or attempt to say the are gay. Only they have gay like tendencies in terms of sexuality. As we know there can be attraction to males without necessarily being gay. But if men repress this possibility, their maladaptive behavior that does not allow a person to be who they could be without all the inner conflict and turmoil imposed by others expectations, religious dogma and societal acceptance.

Again its not about one sidedness, I am presenting what is out there, what has been published not mearly opined. These are not my words or conclusions, but the more information all of us have here, regardless on our path, isnt that healthier for everyone?

Its interesting many months ago. This was this view was presented by another member on here who quoted this:

Elephant in the Pew: Same Sex Attraction http://victoryatl.com/p/12162/Default.aspx?ReturnUrl=&MediaID=281

I listened to it several times just to make sure i got it correct. This is his direct quote at the end.
‘If god cant change a little thing like sexuality then he is not a true god’
Is this view one sided? You are correct, orientation seems in humans to have multiple components to its genesis, however one thing has been clear there has Never been any evidence that the above statement is true, in any way.

Perhaps it would be better if we just accepted that, that somehow you could just change from gay to straight or straight to gay. Firstly it seems to be a one way street. I dont see any or know of any gay organization trying to convert any straight people and. Second, it would be so much easier NOT to be gay. Easier on the families, the person themselves not being subject to being a second class citizen without the same rights as straight people. Who would chose this, "The gay lifestyle". Sort of sounds whimsical, like a style of dress, beard no beard, social convention, trends, fashion. Being gay is not an Easter Bonnet. Its who a person is, the person can either accept it or not. Act on it or not. But change it like a wide lapelled polyester leisure suit, they cannot.

So thats the point here. Regardless of gay being nature or nuture or a combination, these men are not able to accept themselves being gay or even the possibility they may be, so they harm/or try to change those that do accept it. Hostility is not a my goal in anyway. Honesty and intent is.

Cheers

grant


Edited by 1lifenow (04/16/12 10:41 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling, again
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The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

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#393738 - 04/17/12 09:29 AM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
Bradley P Offline


Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 44
Loc: AR
Same old argument, it's so boring guys really. Can't we just agree to disagree?? Gaw, just stop for real. This is so the opposite of this site's purposes...go preach on your pedestal elsewhere.
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#393757 - 04/17/12 12:46 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 393
Loc: west coast
A place for discussions among male survivors about sexual identity and sexuality.

I read what you had to say bradley, so I re-read the purpose of this Forum.

I thought thats what i was discussing. my view is not from any pedistal, I read stuff that may be beneficial to other men struggling as I was. Thats all. Nothing more. Trying to maybe untangle out some of the confusing strings.

I lived a life so full of confussion, anquish and feeling that i was alone in my experience. Lost in a place that I could not seem to make sense from. Sexual identity was a huge issue for me, so i dont take it lightly. I guess what i am saying is if other guys are questioning there feelings and there is information out there that is helpful, why not share.

I wish I had know more about CSA and how it affects our sexuality. I may have saved myself and others a lot of pain.

If you have any ideas, please feel free to share them.

Btw , this is what you wrote previously

[i]I guess we'll see how safe it is in here for SSA convos with my post haha. Let me preface by saying the obvious: I'm not trying to offend. I just want to be honest with my feelings. Hopefully, everyone here (and I mean everyone) can post how they really feel without fear of a kind of persecution for coming in here from a different side of the coin.[/i]

So all I ask for the same thing you asked for, nothing more.
_________________________
The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

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#393766 - 04/17/12 01:42 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
Bradley P Offline


Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 44
Loc: AR
Touche!

Here's my thing. I wasn't referring only to you...I can't stand to hear ex-gay lingo as well. So to be fair, I really dislike reading about conversion therapy just as much as the next guy.

So, to concede, you are right. I apologize. I was venting my personal distaste for the gay/ex-gay debate discussion. I was being disrespectful. I could go into my reasons for disliking the discussion, but mainly I just hate stuff that incites argument, so I digress
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"Life is for living, we all know...but I don't want to live it alone"-Chris Martin (Coldplay)

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#393810 - 04/17/12 07:32 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
I read your post but I'm not interested in discussing this further. Honestly, you haven't written anything that I haven't read before, considered before, countered before and learned isn't true, for me, before.

I just find it a specious, weak argument to rely on a wavering older man as the basis for one's opinion. If that were the case, we could spend all day going back and forth looking for other's opinions that bolster each of our arguments.

There may be some scientific basis for orientation but maybe instead its just a start and what happens outside the womb maybe that much more important. How do you measure that and put it in a peer reviewed journal? You don't and since you can't, that is where the argument for many who have a horse in the race on orientation want the conversation to end. For me, that is just where it begins. That's the difference.


Edited by EdfromNYC (04/17/12 07:37 PM)
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And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#393880 - 04/18/12 04:13 AM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 393
Loc: west coast
Its ironic, I remember being hostile and mean to a kid in school that was gay, not sure why, just seemed like the right thing. I played sports, co-captained the basketball team, he did macrame' and fussed. I wish I could apologize. I bet he's not even gay, just good with knots. Well that and he was a snappy dresser.

The original article I sited helps explain that. 160 thats the number of college students in the study. 7 authors by researchers in 2 countries. It's not one man's opinion, and its not specious. Specious is when you dont even read the article, which is your perogative, but then dont comment on something you are not even privy to or clearly haven't the capacity to grasp.

Please provide if you will anything other than your opinion. This is not my opinion, its cogent reasoning based on controled observation that explains why Some men have heightened homophobia. Nothing more.

The article on the "ex-gay" study, was about the guy who wrote it saying his words had been misinterperted and taken out of context, he didnt change his mind, he said the "ex-gay" guys , the ones who can 'pray the gay away' are twisting his words for their own "horse race". And yes Mike Wallace who was old, did change his opinion because he felt his original premise that all homos are mentally ill perverts came from a place of ignorance. I never once said anything about after the womb or before. I have no idea where you got that.

When i showed my 17 year old son the study from the Journal of Psychology and we talked about it, he said, "no shit dad, you dont need to be a scientist to see that". Logic and rationality , that's the difference.
_________________________
The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

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#393884 - 04/18/12 05:47 AM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Deleted. I am disengaging.



Edited by EdfromNYC (04/18/12 11:08 AM)
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#393957 - 04/18/12 07:47 PM . [Re: 1lifenow]
Life's A Dream Offline


Registered: 08/25/11
Posts: 886
Loc: Bouvet Island
.


Edited by Life's A Dream (01/12/13 10:56 PM)

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