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#394228 - 04/20/12 11:41 AM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1227
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/17/13 08:25 PM)
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#394661 - 04/23/12 09:46 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
EdfromNYC Offline
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Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Some follow up for you on this story. It is much more accurate to me than the original story and from a reputable source and not journalistic in nature. It is a critique of Spitzer's sort-of "retraction" of his original interpretation of his original study that was peer reviewed and accepted when published unlike his sort-of "retraction".

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fetishes-i-dont-get/201204/how-ex-ex-gay-study
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#395565 - 04/30/12 04:35 AM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 408
Loc: west coast
I want to apologize if I get too technical sometimes, thats not my intent. My intent on this thread was to discuss how sometimes men including me, had in the past demonstrated outward anti-gay feelings to use it as a deflection shield. Sort of like wonderwomans guantlets( ironic huh?)

That was the main point, using some recent published info to corroborate, so just not about me spouting off.

Although it was a side note cuz of the timing in the news, It became partly about the 'retraction' of the EX-GAY stuff by its very author, a study used and held up as proof that bs works. I agree with Ed , the above article says for a retraction the author needs to submit in writing to the publishing journal, he has now submitted a letter to Mr. Zucker, managing editor.

Spitzer apologized to the gay community basically because he said he now sees the overwhelming critiques of his work were correct. He is not himself gay, he has no gay agenda or investment - in fact it takes the opposite to admit your mistakes.
1. There were no controls - thats just bad science and nothing more than enecdotal evidence( saying its so - no proof)

2. The persons reporting change could not be substantiated as it was a self report. 93% had attended this "therapy" for religious reasons, ( so likely saying it didnt work would not get you back in the front door - "IT'S A ...!"). 66% had been referred by ex-gay ministries.

3. IT MAKES NO SENSE cuz the original paper was trying to answer what do men undergoing this therapy say about how their orientation changes. NOT NOT NOT can their orientation change?, he admits there was no way to know. Somehow it got subverted to there is proof you can change orientation.
Having said that the article I quoted on HOMOPHOBIA used 4 different studies with more sofisticated techniques and found that these men who were often most homophobic had sexual attraction towards men.

So I am saying that it is time to put all this EX-GAY stuff away. It is not same old same old or "I have heard it before". THIS IS HUGE. NO MORE CO_OPTING SCIENCE for a particular bent.

There is no way to make the gay go away. You can not pray it, wish it, hope it, flagelate, drink, drug or otherwise stop it. You can only chose to either act on it or not. That's where the convenient " gay lifestyle " argument comes in. I have never heard of "hetersexual lifestyle", its your choice to be str8(you know. when you sign the agreement). Both are bullshit terms. So yes lets put it to rest, cuz finally despite any rational mind already knowing the argument was bs. It's time for bed. The barbarians are tired.

Ps please feel free Ed to post something about how what happens outside the womb can affect orientation. I happen to agree with that. But on this subject there is no equivocation, EX-GAY, like poor old "Poly" the bird in an old Monty Python skit is STONE DEAD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npjOSLCR2hE

Glad it helped Jeff

cheers

grant
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The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

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#395566 - 04/30/12 04:38 AM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 408
Loc: west coast
Spitzers full letter

Several months ago I told you that because of my revised view of my 2001 study of reparative therapy changing sexual orientation, I was considering writing something that would acknowledge that I now judged the major critiques of the study as largely correct. After discussing my revised view of the study with Gabriel Arana, a reporter for American Prospect, and with Malcolm Ritter, an Associated Press science writer, I decided that I had to make public my current thinking about the study. Here it is.

Basic Research Question. From the beginning it was: “can some version of reparative therapy enable individuals to change their sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual?” Realizing that the study design made it impossible to answer this question, I suggested that the study could be viewed as answering the question, “how do individuals undergoing reparative therapy describe changes in sexual orientation?” – a not very interesting question.

The Fatal Flaw in the Study – There was no way to judge the credibility of subject reports of change in sexual orientation. I offered several (unconvincing) reasons why it was reasonable to assume that the subject’s reports of change were credible and not self-deception or outright lying. But the simple fact is that there was no way to determine if the subject’s accounts of change were valid.

I believe I owe the gay community an apology for my study making unproven claims of the efficacy of reparative therapy. I also apologize to any gay person who wasted time and energy undergoing some form of reparative therapy because they believed that I had proven that reparative therapy works with some “highly motivated” individuals.

Robert Spitzer. M.D.
Emeritus Professor of Psychiatry,
Columbia University

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The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

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#395587 - 04/30/12 09:17 AM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
lapchinj Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1227
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/17/13 08:29 PM)
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#395630 - 04/30/12 07:45 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Quote:
There is no way to make the gay go away. You can not pray it, wish it, hope it, flagelate, drink, drug or otherwise stop it. You can only chose to either act on it or not. That's where the convenient " gay lifestyle " argument comes in. I have never heard of "hetersexual lifestyle", its your choice to be str8(you know. when you sign the agreement). Both are bullshit terms. So yes lets put it to rest, cuz finally despite any rational mind already knowing the argument was bs. It's time for bed. The barbarians are tired.


I've read many, many, many, many angry posts like your posts over the years and posts like your posts where one person like you declares an issue dead. Its amusing to me.

For information's sake: gay went away for me but only through work and self-acceptance that it didn't matter to me either way.

I work with a gay therapist, I have friends who are gay in my daily life and I have friends who've dealt with unwanted SSA and no longer do. I have actual experience that you don't have. I know men who've "healed" their SSA because they wanted to and not via religion. For me, there are many paths to wholeness.

The science of studying sexual orientation and its malleability will go on even with your declaration that its over and with Spitzer's letter (that will simply be added to his study).

The reason that I don't engage further on point-by-point basis is I don't think in terms of either/or, black/white, right/wrong, us/them. Its fruitless to engage and really, really old to me. I also don't think in terms of ex-gay. I think in terms of SSA and whether you are comfortable with it or not. I also don't think in terms of changing orientation; I think of uncovering true orientation beneath the surface. So I'm not going to argue terminology that I am not behind but I respect the right to engage in that therapy for those who choose it.

I don't think you need to apologize for being technical. I think you might want to look at your tone, though.

Edit: Added some additional breakdowns of "studies" about homophobia and orientation and the complete lack of conclusiveness as posited above. Enough.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and...sexuality_.html


Edited by EdfromNYC (04/30/12 08:27 PM)
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#395634 - 04/30/12 08:51 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
I long ago removed myself from most of these discussions. I also am very hesitant to enter any discussions on SSA as I was not abused as a child or teen. I was an adult with a well established identity as a man who was gay.

I would like to simply say this though - I think we are talking two different things here. I do not use the term SSA in relation to me. I find the term to be a clinical one and think more in terms of those who were abused and are now left with this in their recovery.

Gay is gay folks. Period and all that there is. You cannot turn back gay and make a guy straight.

But if a man has been abused as a child or teen I think they could work through the SSA in their lives if they feel it is not their true sexuality. I am no expert on that but have talked to many men here who have done that in their lives.

It is all about respect for the other side and knowing one's recovery is not necessarily the other person's recovery. I find it tiresome when the debate goes into a personal one. Once and for all we need to see that we are talking two different topics here.

Without respect, and I am talking all sides, then the topic is really an ineffective one.


Daryl
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#395640 - 04/30/12 09:26 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: prisonerID]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Quote:
Gay is gay folks. Period and all that there is. You cannot turn back gay and make a guy straight.


You can only make that statement for yourself. You have not lived in everyone else's shoes. Again with a declarative statement...

Its just like saying black is black and there is no variation in there. If you believe that, there are millions who will disagree on what "black" is.

To be clear: we don't agree that we are talking about two separate topics. There is no bright line. That would make it easier, that's for sure, but its not and that's why its studied endlessly.

My perspective is completely different than yours. I disagree with your way of looking at things. I'm not going to try to convince you that I'm right and you're wrong. That's for other people to do. I don't need to be right.

I will say this: I used to look at things similarly but I've had real life experiences that show me more than I thought I knew.







Edited by EdfromNYC (04/30/12 09:40 PM)
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#395641 - 04/30/12 09:45 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
Eddie,

I was simply trying to be respectful to both sides of of the discussion here. Apparently you only honed in on what you could readily disagree with.

Your sarcasm is noted. Arbiter? I was simply adding my own thoughts on this.

I see it as two separate topics. You are not the end all expert on all things gay either.

Your disrespect is quite apparent here. It is difficult to discuss things period with ones like you.


Daryl


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Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#395642 - 04/30/12 09:49 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
smile
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