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#393903 - 04/18/12 09:39 AM Female Perpetrators
Tiff Offline


Registered: 04/17/12
Posts: 11
Hi all, I found this great article on female on male abuse. Apparently, females very rarely sexually abuse other females (will look for stats on that and get back to you). Interesting, huh?

Cheers, Tiff


http://kalimunro.com/wp/articles-info/se...le-perpetrators

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#393910 - 04/18/12 09:58 AM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2582
Good article that does a pretty decent job of debunking the "females don't abuse" myth.

Not sure about the idea that females rarely sexually abuse other females... I'm part of another online community that is mostly female and the HUGE number of women there abused by other females is almost staggering.

I went to a training seminar once where a woman (Doris Van Stone) shared her story, over the course of a whole week, of horrible sexual abuse. She shared about the sexual abuse she experienced in an orphanage she spent her childhood years in and then being prostituted by the family that adopted her...

It wasn't until the last day that she finally shared that in that orphanage, where all manner of sexual abuse took place... there was not one single male employee.

The more I learn, the more I realize that our "statistics" or horribly slanted and biased. I'm seeing more and more that women abuse as much as men and boys are as often the targets as girls are.

Hopefully in time as awareness is raised and ignorance is destroyed those biased statistics will be righted.


Edited by JustScott (04/18/12 09:59 AM)

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#393914 - 04/18/12 10:08 AM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
Tiff Offline


Registered: 04/17/12
Posts: 11
Hey,

Yeah, I really need to find where I read that- it was on an Australian website somewhere and was very clear about it - so will keep looking. It quoted stats that claimed that when women abused, they overwhelmingly abused young males. As I said, will keep looking!

I also think there must be a particular kind of shame associated with all that - society's idea seems to be that men can't participate unless they're 'into it', ie, have an erection.

I've been reading some really interesting things about this over the last couple of days but have predictably lost track of what I read when because there's just been so much - I think I'll go over my Internet history and pass the stuff that struck me on to you guys.

Great site - cheers and love to you all,

Tiff

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#393916 - 04/18/12 10:14 AM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2582
Definitely is not only added shame that others don't fight with, but it's also an additional HUGE inhibitor to breaking the silence about it.

When everyone around you is "cheering" some poor molested kid because "he got lucky" with some "hottie" teacher, or talking about how worthless and pathetic a guy must be to get taken advantage of (by anyone, not just a woman, but it's certainly "worse" if it was a female), or they just minimize it because "you know you wanted it..." Well there just isn't any reason to share that with anyone and just invite the ridicule and dismissiveness it's going to invite.


And yes, I know this first hand. It's one aspect of the abuse I experienced that I rarely share.

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#393919 - 04/18/12 10:32 AM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
Tiff Offline


Registered: 04/17/12
Posts: 11
Hi again,

God, when you put it like that, it all just sounds so horrendous - imagine, everyone cheering you on while you're dying inside. I just can't imagine anything like that.

Sorry, I'll have to retract - I can't find the website that claimed the victims of female abuse were overwhelmingly male. However, I did read this yesterday and I thought it dealt with the issue really well (drawing on popular culture to illustrate some of the points). I think I found it on this site so you're probably already familiar with it!

http://www.malesurvivor.org/Reversal_of_Fortune.pdf

Tiff

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#393920 - 04/18/12 10:36 AM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
Tiff Offline


Registered: 04/17/12
Posts: 11
Just wanted to add - the article also mentions that women have also been known to show signs of being 'into it' during rapes (I won't expand on this- I'm sure you know what I mean) - but if anyone dared mention this, they would be well and truly shouted down...

Our perceptions as a society must make the experience all the more isolating and traumatic for the poor abused boys. Wow. Just...wow.

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#393921 - 04/18/12 10:36 AM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
Tiff Offline


Registered: 04/17/12
Posts: 11
http://www.malesurvivor.org/Reversal_of_Fortune.pdf

Sorry - here's the article I was referring to...

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#394203 - 04/20/12 05:20 AM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
BloggerT Offline


Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 21
It depends on what you mean by very rarely. According to the Center for Sex Offender Management, an estimated 1.6 million men and 1.5 million women are sexually abused by women when they were children.

According to Law Professor Kay Levine, it is estimated that 1.5 million girls and 1.1 million boys are victims of female sexual abuse in the United States.

The numbers vary depending on the study 600+ studies on this subject and the above information came from http://www.female-offenders.com/

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#394395 - 04/22/12 01:41 AM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: BloggerT]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Originally Posted By: BloggerT
It depends on what you mean by very rarely. According to the Center for Sex Offender Management, an estimated 1.6 million men and 1.5 million women are sexually abused by women when they were children.

According to Law Professor Kay Levine, it is estimated that 1.5 million girls and 1.1 million boys are victims of female sexual abuse in the United States.

The numbers vary depending on the study 600+ studies on this subject and the above information came from http://www.female-offenders.com/


***Triggers*****

There are women offenders abusing girls too. Elsewhere I've heard women say, "they betrayed their own sex" in raping them. Never put in those words myself about my male rapist (his wife raped me too). Male offenders are just mored derided than women offenders. Women offenders also get more "compassion" or the boys aren't believed or called lucky if they are say, 14-up.

Too many guys say, "Dude, I'd have killed for that in high school. Where were those teachers when I was in high school? Lucky dude." Saw a lot of those comments recently when the Cincinnati Bengals cheerleader got arrested for allegedly having sex with a 16 year old student.

One thing I wonder since 50% of child rape is violent vs. like 30-35% of adult rape according to statistics, which gender is more violent? It's all violent since against someone's will.

Is it the lack of violence with half of offenders, male or female, why it's such a damn problem for victims to grasp?

I didn't know for 23 years. Was mad at the male not the female perp. I blamed the male perp for it not her even though she participated and did most of the rape. Guess because I suffocated on his penis. Yeah, disgusting. But, if I could've found them, both would've gotten killed over it slowly, with lots of pain.
_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#394733 - 04/24/12 05:32 AM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2016
Loc: durham, north england
Interesting artical, though myself one thing that has always bothered me is that my own experience seems fairly unique, in that there were multiple female perpetrators at once, ---- indeed the phrase "gang rape" is possibly true in my case. particularly unusual as it was multiple teenaged girls.

i must admit, while I have no animosity towards any individual woman, I find the idea that girls of 12-18 are always seen as precious, weak and needing protection really disguists me, especially when i remember the occasion I! got yelled at by a teacher for perpetrating abuse when I punched one of those girls in the chest.

I'd love to write on this topic myself, especially when i've finished my phd, but I'm extremely afraid that doing the research, reading all the view points that state how evil men are, that men always want s/x and that because a man's body respondes his mind must also be involved would be extremely triggering and upsetting.

the ironic thing is, that though I've never had any sort of romantic relationship, most of my friends are now female, though none are what you would call sterriotypically female in their beliefs or have sexist views about men.

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#400003 - 06/10/12 01:44 PM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
Steve0123 Offline


Registered: 05/30/12
Posts: 80
Do you think that male survivors of female abuse are seen as less "legitimate"? Their pain or confusions shouldn't be as severe as if the criminal was male?

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#400100 - 06/11/12 05:33 AM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
learning2remember Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 261
Loc: Europe
I think victimization of males, by men or women, is widely overlooked, and that perpetration by females, towards either gender, is a taboo subject.

Statistics are there, as well as reports, as well as convictions.

And yet, people still act like it doesn't happen.

I've seen some well-intentioned women get very defensive in workshhops or presentations if abuse of men and/or by women was brought up.

They are so worried about the numerous crimes committed by men, for so long not taken seriously enough, and so worried about women, who still are under-reported, that they see issues like ours as a threat to their focus or as some insignificant anomoly.

They look at me as if I'm bringing our issues up just for the sake of argement, and that is frustrating.

Sexual victimization of ANYONE by ANYONE is wrong.
_________________________
"This is not my shame, this is their shame." Mona Eltahawy

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#407568 - 08/22/12 02:51 PM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
cymrotom Offline


Registered: 06/15/12
Posts: 30
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Thanks for posting that.
_________________________
I just want to be me.

Tom

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#407618 - 08/23/12 04:04 AM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
Yerac Offline


Registered: 02/22/12
Posts: 45
Loc: Southern CA
.

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#408256 - 08/28/12 10:11 PM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2016
Loc: durham, north england
Interesting Yrac, and I agree.

I'd actually be interestedto know if your research ever uncovers any experiences similar to mine, which happened at secondary school in the context of repeated and extreme bullying that got steadily worse and resulted in as I said above, what I now would considder gang rape and s/xual humiliation by a bunch of girls (never less than 4 and usually around 6). While I experienced physical violence and insults from boys, this never bothered me as much as the female, more sepcifically s/xual abuse.

One issue I think was a major factor in my case, is this belief that females cannot be perpetrators. for a bunch of girls to force a boy against a wall, pull his trousers down and fondle his genitals was a joke, but what if a bunch of boys had done that to a girl?

As I said, I even got a severe yelling at for "touching girls inappropriately" when I punched a girl in the chest (given her position it was the most reacheable targit), despite what was happening to me at the time.

I'm not convinced on the social trends changing though, not when (at least in britain), it's still far more frowned upon for a man to show any feminine traits at all. indeed, i'd argue myself that sexism against men is a more wide ranging social problem that is not the least addressed, ---- after all, "all men are pigs" would be a quite acceptable public comment, where as "all women are pigs" would get someone into severe trouble.
As I said, i'd love to write on this myself, but given that the so called overview of s/xual ethics I had during my degree in philosophy began with the words "seventy percent of men would abuse a woman if they could" i worry about how angry and generally hurt the reading material would make me feel doing the research for such.

Luke.

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#408285 - 08/29/12 08:36 AM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
Blessedcurse Offline


Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 93
A while ago in Sweden a ring of child pornography was discovered and it generated huge headlines when it became public that most of the people involved were women. And then, interestingly, newspapers were full of articles about how this could be, publishing facts about the one man being behind all of this, having manipulated the women to participate.

Maybe this was the case, I don't know, maybe these women had been talked into sharing child pornography by this man, but seriously, when these rings are discovered and the people involved by men there is never any headlines about one of them having manipulated the others into it even if that might be the case also with men involved.

I find it interesting that when women are perpetrators it becomes so important to the public to find explanations to how this could happen. To me it seems like the patriarchal view of masculinity -strength - perpetration versus femininity - weekness - victimisation is so strong people just can't handle that women are people too, capable of evil things just like men. It just bugs me.

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#408296 - 08/29/12 10:31 AM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2016
Loc: durham, north england
That is absolutely true, indeed my brother as a straight forward anime (japanese animation) fan with significant knolidge of other fans says it really irritates him when men are cryticized for watching hentai, aka, japanese pornographic animation, where as female fans often do exactly the same thing, write articals about it and even argue it's it's own "feminine subculture" whatever the hell that means, despite the fact men who attempt to watch or be interested in hentai are seen as just as culpable as men who watch pornography of any sort.

i don't even think it's quite as simple as automatically assigning anything strong the value of "masculine" and anything weak the value of "feminine"

Look at characters like ripley in the alien films or zoe in firefly. A woman who exhibits masculine traits is held up as "independent" where as however if a woman wants! to fulfill a traditional female roll at home with the children "well that's her choice"

It is as if the female sterriotype is held up as an ideal which women are free to choose or not, and either choice is held as right.

men however are forced! into the masculine sterriotype. This is not just a view of strength and protection, but also these days brutishness, clownishness, idiocy, a "one track mind", unemotionality and even more increasingly in modern portrayals, the idea that a single man is in some way weak or lacking, where a single woman is once again independent.

The best example I can think of of this view as the time I was at the bar at university, ordering my usual coctail (I believe it was tia maria and orange at the time), when a large man beside me said "that's a girly drink why not have a pint!"

I explained that I've tried beer and larga before, including some apparently high standard real ales, but none particularly appealed to me. This idiot said "well drink 20 pints, then! you'd like beer" I asked why I should down 20 pints of something I didn't like, to which this fellow replied "because your a man!"

And yet, beside me at the bar girls were drinking everyting from straight up lemonade to larga or licures without any harrassment at all.

As I said, it's my personal belief that all! sexist sterriotypes are wrong, however it seems that where there is huge recognition of the female sterriotype, there is no recognition of the male, indeed in many ways views of men in society are actually being made worse by those ultra nazi feminists who catagorize all men as evil.

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#408314 - 08/29/12 01:58 PM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
Blessedcurse Offline


Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 93
Dark Empathy:

Well, we had this discussion before so you know I don't really agree with your analyzis. I feel the need to answer since you made a completely different point from what I wrote before than I do.

You wrote:

"it is as if the female sterriotype is held up as an ideal which women are free to choose or not, and either choice is held as right."

I think this sentence is quite illustrative to where we differ in opinion. What I see around me is not that the female steriotype is a free choise, rather that girls are taught from birth how to be in a way that gets really into their identity (just like boys are), and then when the girls rebel against this they meet all kinds of bad reactions but they do anyway and they organize because the female stereotype is just so restricting may of them can't live with it. I could give you facts and figures as to how the structural opression of women still happens but I don't have the time right now.

One point I want to make is, that obviously you don't recognize the ways that women are put down when chosing not to live by their female stereotype. This could be because they're not put down, but it could also be because you just don't have the personal experience and therefore do not se it when it happens. Just like so many women don't understand why it is a big difficult thing for a guy to have a "girly" drink in public. They don't see the problem because it doesn't happen to them.

This link is to an article about comparing identities that I just read. Maybe it would be interesting to you. Personally I think that male survivors would benefit from greater understanding from other groups, but I don't think we reach that by comparing with the struggles of women and minimizing the womens movement. Instead I think we should respect the womens movement and find the common grounds were we have the same interests.


http://yrwelcome.wordpress.com/2011/09/28/on-fat-trans-and-the-pitfalls-of-comparing-identities/

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#408333 - 08/29/12 05:14 PM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
scottyg Offline


Registered: 06/26/12
Posts: 253
Loc: Seattle
...like to chime in on the debate tho I'm wholly unqualified to do so...

Yes, Steve the victims are seen as less legitimate and I think it's because in society and in the world of criminal justice we focus on the act not the outcome. In a "tradiional" rape scenario the woman is penetrated, often with violence, and the immediate outcome may be pregnancy or disease. We know this storyline from prehistory. The inverse act involves a male becoming engulfed by a female. This concept does not carry the valence or history of the former act.

What we utterly ignore is the outcomeof the act. All of those same feelings of violation, of vulnerability, of personal loss. I must admit that I've been as callouse as the next when it comes to misunderstanding the ramifications. I had a drinking buddy that chased a lot of tail and banged a lot of chicks. He mentioned waking up drunk one night finding himself getting raped by a female and I made light of his situation. It takes a much deeper understanding than we currently possess, even with so many childhood sexual abuse survivors coming to light, to give the experiences you men speak of its propper gravity and respect.

As far as gender roles go, they're also as old as rape itself. The answer is accepting they exists but refusing to let them define our being. No person fits completely within their gender stereotype. If they do, they're a neurotic robot in need of serious therapy. There will always be macho assholes. There will always be smothering mothers. I just try to be happy being me: a stay-at-home dad who cooks and cleans and washes the laundry AND drinks a larga at the pub. Tia Maria is more of a nightcap methinks.

DE I think a bit of humor could go along way to diffuse these situations with cromagnons. Perhaps you could say, well I could drink that but a larga makes me rather gassy and the ladies don't like that at all.
_________________________
I've got a bike you can ride it if you like.
Its got a basket, a bell that rings
And many other things to make it look good.
I'd give it to you if I could -but I've borrowed it.

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#408342 - 08/29/12 07:24 PM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2016
Loc: durham, north england
@Scottyg, I didn't particularly care what this idiot thought. i know myself and know what I like well enough not to, I was just using it as an illustrative example.

@blessedcurse, i'm sorry if I gave the impression that I do not recognize that there are still in western society those who are harmed by female sterriotypes, it's only necessary to look at beauty products or the fashion industry to see as much, and indeeed of course in the past this was significantly worse.

I am often in fact the first to react when someone says something sexist about women or! men in given situations.

My issue however, is that at least in the Uk, and especially among interlectuals and politicians, the initial drive for "Equality" often turns into something else, especially i might add due to the prominant beliefs of certain feminists.

It might be different in other cultures, indeed perhaps the Uk is slightly different from the Us in this respect, (particularly given that ultra conservative religious views are less common over here especially among politicans).

But I do for instance frequently here sexist comments from women about men repeatedly "all men are after one thing", or "all men are pigs" or similar, that were they made about women would cause far more of an outcry.

As one fundimental example, look at the pantomime tradition. Even 50 years ago, a woman wearing man's clothing would be seen just as strange and commical as the other way around, which is why the principle boy in panto's was always played by a girl, just as the dame was played by a man.

now however, could a man wear something feminine? ---- indeed, I myself sometimes have trouble buying simple products such as cologne?

Likewise, boys are still! told not to hit girls, are girls ever told not to hit or insult boys? methinks not.

it isn't that I am in favour of any sort of oppression of women, indeed quite the reverse, it's just that I believe the male aspect of sexism is not recognized, and indeed given the efforts of certain feminist writers, is almost going the other way in some areas, ---- for example, these days men are almost banned from working with young children!

I call myself a gender equalitarian, which is precisely what I am, and is the position I'd advocate for anyone who would like to see a world with no gender sterriotypes where it was acceptable for a man or! a woman to safely look after kids, be a plumber, learn to sew, fix cars, and wear whatever style of clothing they dam well wanted!

I myself attempt to give the fact that I am male as much significance as the fact that I am five foot nine. it has some biological baring on what I do in a few areas, but othrwise, I'm me, end of story. I just wish more people were the same.

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#408384 - 08/30/12 02:36 AM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
Blessedcurse Offline


Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 93
D.E.

It might be differences in culture. I live in Sweden so the ultra conservatives are barely existing. I think the difference that make us misunderstand each other is the oposite. Equality has come a long way in Sweden and the macho masculinity is not that much of an ideal anymore. I guess it might be a lot easier to be an unmasquline man in Sweden than in UK perhaps?

Also the discourse of feminism has moved far beyond the "men are better/women are better" quarrel. These opinions were big say 20 years ago. Since then the discourse of feminism (or "gender knowledge", don't know a better translation) has developed to a huge web of analyzes of power structures in society and how they intersect. In this context, people who claim that "all men are pigs" are not seen as feminists but as people upholding the gender differences (if all men are pigs that also means that all women are different and then you have put the responsibility on the women for the mens behavior. The "all men are pigs" is usually followed by "so you should have known better than following a guy home" or something like that.

The word "feminism" has been kept to acqnowledge that feminists se the problem of structural opression against women and want to do something about it. Also out of respect of the feminist movement and its earlier achievements. It has nothing to do with hating men, just like this place is not about hating women even though the place is exclusive for men. From your writings I guess that the development of the feminist movement is different in the UK

In Sweden you just can't say "men are pigs" and stuff out in the media. It's terribly politically incorrect. There was a woman who did this many years ago and people still write about it. Even though the quote was taken out of context. (She answered the question of what she thought a woman would think of men, who had been battered by one most her life. Then the question was cut).

So I guess I am failing to fully understand your perspective, making the mistake of thinking that your reality is the same as mine. In Sweden the people who dislike feminists are usually old men stating that men should be men and women should be women... and then there are a few men who think that white men are the opressed group in society and everytime someone says anything about racism or sexism they start shouting something unfair that they experienced. Usually they bring up the "men are pigs"-lady described above. Like nobody else has ever been insulted by anyone.

I just don't understand why the struggle for more acceptance for men that break the norm of masculinity must be in competition with other groups.

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#408390 - 08/30/12 05:01 AM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
Blessedcurse Offline


Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 93
Oh, and to get back on topic, the point I was trying to make in my first post was that DESPITE all this progress in the gender equality area, where men taking care of children are widely applauded as are women doing traditionally manly stuff, it still seems completely incomprehensible to the public that women can be perpetrators of sexual abuse. That's what bugs me. After all this development towards equality, the notion that women can't commit sexual crimes is still so accepted. I don't understand why. It causes damage to victims of female abuse, both sexes, and it sure makes it more difficult to reach the abusive women with treatment.

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#408391 - 08/30/12 05:15 AM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
Yerac Offline


Registered: 02/22/12
Posts: 45
Loc: Southern CA
.

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#408395 - 08/30/12 05:37 AM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
Blessedcurse Offline


Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 93
Yerac: Seems interesting. Found the article, will definitely read it when I have the time.

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#408694 - 09/02/12 07:12 AM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2016
Loc: durham, north england
Yrac, that does sound interesting, I'd like to read it myself.

@blessedcurse, yes indeed, i believe in Britain the recognition that it is possible to be sexist towards a man is not half as complete as it is in Sweedan, for instance it would still! be fine over here to claime "all men are pigs" or a similar statement in public. Such statements are not made by victims either, but by women who are often close to being down right paranoid, and will become extremely aggressive at the slightest provocation.

For example, it's not uncommon in certain British institutions for a man to be shouted at and possible even diciplined for holding the door open for a woman on the basis of being sexist, even if the man would do the same thing for another man, ---- and I've mentioned on this forum before my so called "introductory lecture" to s/xual ethics which began with the words "seventy percent of men would rape a woman if they could"

Still worse over here, all men are becoming demonized as pedofiles whatever the circumstances, and male teachers or indeed any man who interacts with children at all has to be dam careful to literally never touch them. For instance, a friend of mine who worked as a classroom assistant in a nursery school (who actually now has a daughter of his own), said that he physically had to pull a little girl off him who was attempting to give him a hug or risk getting fired.

this isn't to say there aren't! dodgy men around, plenty of guys of this site can attest to it, but believing all! men are in some way potential abusers to the extent where you literally refuse to let a man even look at a child is just ridiculous.

Then there is a considderable amount of media, in which violence towards men is seen as fine, but not towards women, --- indeed violence or still worse s/xual humour towards men is often treated as a joke where as it wouldn't be towards women.

It often strikes me that, while there are! women who strive for actual equality, we're at a stage now where all the Victorian ideals of "protecting women" are still in force, but the victorian view of women as "weaker" is not.

Indeed, it's my own belief that traditional gender sterriotypes also promote the idea that men are expendable and that harm done to men doesn't count, as much as they promote the idea of female pacivity and helplessness, ---- after all, it's perfectly alright for the knight to be hurt or even killed while fighting the dragon, --- but it would be terrible if the princess died!

Look at the prince in the story of rapunzel as a primery example, ---- rapunzel herself is indeed just as pacive and useless a character as most people suggest, ---- but who is the one who gets blinded?

As I said, I fully agree that the "x is better" is a ridiculous debate, howeverr in Britain, the idea that a man could! be the victim of sexism is pretty much unknown, and "Feminism" usually too often means purely promoting the interests of women and denirating those of men, ---- especially in political or professional circles, which is why I emphasize the idea of sexism against men, even though i would be just as offended at a person who had a similarly sexist attitude to women.

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#408696 - 09/02/12 08:42 AM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
Blessedcurse Offline


Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 93
D E: Oh, in that case I understand your point of wiev so much better.

The mainstream of the feminist movement in Sweden would strongly argue against the view of men as expendable, since this suggests a difference between men an women that means people need to change themselves to fit into a norm. It is just two sides of the same problem. As long as we see men as expendable warriors the view of women as precious and passive comes along.

For example, recently a female prison guard was killed by an inmate. Emmediately some old anti feminist went out in the media stating that her death was the fault of feminism because this is was happens when a woman does a mans work. The people arguing against it are the feminists, saying that this way of thinking suggests that a man would have been able to defend himself or that a man killed would have been less of a disaster, wich is an old fasioned view of men as strong, violent and expendable.

Men in child care are not seen as you describe. Public policy is that children need role models of both sexes and men are also encouraged to stay at home with their own children. Despite this, men do not use the possibility of paternity leave in any large extent and are very few in child care. This makes the consequenses that, to get child care staff of both sexes, men are privileged in that they often get a job before women with better references and also get paid more to stay. The same thing does not happen for women in sectors dominated by men, on the contrary, they usually are paid less and not promoted.

As to female offenders, a study in Sweden showed that the convicted offenders of csa were 80 % male. This means 20 % were female wich raised a discussion of why the perpetrator is almost allways portrayed as a man. I mean, of cours 80% is a majority but there are still many female perpetrators out there. Also there was a study suggesting that though men commit the vast majority of all violent crimes, those areas where the most female offenders were, were in crimes against children. Explained simply that women have the physical posibility to abuse children in a larger extent than adults and also that it comes with the female stereotype to be alone with children, being ther primary attachment object and thus having great oportunities to get away with ca/csa.

The view that all men are pedophiles and can not be around children is only hurting the feminist movement. I mean, come on, if men cannot take care of children than who will be left to do it all. The taking care of children argument is one of the biggest that keep women from gaining power in different areas, in that they cannot really be trusted as employees since they have maternity leave, stay at home when children are sick, are expected to allways put familly first and so on. Men taking their share of that responsibility would mean a lot for the feminist movement.

What annoys me a bit is that in Sweden, having come so far, the people promoting a more equal view of both men and women are usually female feminists. Where are the men in this? Why don't men go out and "rage" in the media when some old guy sais only men should be prison guards since they can take it? It's allways the female feminists and occationally some young guy. Why are men leaving the equality movement all to the women, even tho men also are badly affected by the stereotype?

Like this with female offenders. Why don't men go out in the media trying to nuance the immage of offenders of both genders? Instead the female feminists do as a part of the struggle to see that both men and women have masculine and feminine traits. Instead most men who argue openly are either the "men should be men and everything bad is because of feminism" people, or people saying that it is really the men that are the victims of womens power.

Why can't we just work together against a system that mutilates both sexes? Why can't we just wait a minute and analyze our privileges respectively, aqnowledge them and then make an effort together to dismantle the whole gender based system?

I read the article linked above, it was really interesting. This is much of what feminist movement is about in Sweden. I think you'd like it. Even if the mainstream in your country is stupid you can still raise above it and take the whole thing to another level smile No reason for the feminist/equality movement to allways be lead by women. Women are not allways right.

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#408715 - 09/02/12 06:29 PM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
Vadrian Offline


Registered: 09/10/11
Posts: 111
Loc: Pacific
Feminist rhetoric is filled to the brim with sexism against men, I've seen many women who trump self-serving feminist philosophy in one breath, and in the next humiliate and insult men for not being "masculine" enough, having small penises, caring about their looks, not being capable of physical labor, etc. Several of the female abusers in my family were like this. Meanwhile, I do see that males are, from birth, oppressed and put into boxes. Of course women always think their problems are the most important, and wish to filter history and modern life to the extent that they are never responsible for what they do, because it can all be blamed on 'men' instead.

But feminism has not brought progress to helping people break out of male gender roles, in fact most often I see feminists taking the opposite bent--wanting to oppress men into their conception of a highly conservative, traditional masculinity while supporting the liberation of women.

Meanwhile boys growing up are subjected to an epidemic of unreported, unconvicted child abuse, sexual, physical, and emotional. When you consider that all perpetrators were once abused themselves, the statistics of male childhood victims explodes to a much higher number then females. It is sad that people are interested in explanations when it comes to female perpetrators, but if they're male, no analysis whatsoever is sought except to say that they are just "disgusting men." Violence comes from violence, it doesn't come from 'male hormones' like many feminists say, so if adult males are more violent, it's because they were given much rougher treatment as children, and all adults, male and female, are responsible for that and for changing it.

Blessedcurse mentions female prison guards, but not the fact that in his country there was a military draft of MALES ONLY right up until 2010, where males were forced to pick up guns and oppressed by the conditions of boot camp and a military hierarchy simply for being born with a penis, while females were spared this. How many women were out there protesting THIS as opposed to focusing on their own issues?

I'm sure that many boys growing up being abused by their mothers and other female adults will never come around to feminism or agreeing with women that they are always the greater victims and always the ones with the most important issues. Perhaps that should be respected, and more women should come to see that males are historically and currently oppressed as well.


Edited by Vadrian (09/02/12 06:51 PM)

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#408754 - 09/03/12 04:26 AM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2016
Loc: durham, north england
Well blessedcurse, while from what you said the situation in sweedan doesn't sound perfect, it does sound a lot further along than in this country. Here, i think the sterriotypical, ---- even if not accurate, view of prime minister margaret thatcher has become rather too much part of the view of a female ideal, an aggressive, politically motivated, emotionless woman who stomps all over anyone in her way to get what she wants especially if that person is a man, and justifies such bullying and unpleasant tactics by the view that women are oppressed by men who crush their gentle spirits.

for example, it's quite ironic that people like Amy whitehouse will push for "a ban of male centric tv violence" by using hate filled and angry slogans, then in the same breath promote romances, family dramas and other media that shows very sterriotypical view of women and indeed is aimed at women as ""A promotion of family values" whatever the heck that means.

on the work and economics issue, that is another debate, and I will fully agree there that in most positions in corporations, women do! receive a less fair deal than men, sinse it is still believed even when a man is single that he must be a provider for a housewife and children at some point in his life, even if his wife is the one who works.

yet, by the same tocan, while many female advocates are protesting such injustices, nobody mentions for instance the case of male victims of abuse who lose their jobs, or the fact that men are still far more likely than women to be arrested for offenses such as drunkenness or disordily behaviour, even though women are just as guilty.

Myself, I'd rather devorce characteristics from gender altogether. A very close friend of mine is a girl who is competative, physically active, protective and physically aggressive in appropriate ways, (she's a black belt in karate and a very able fencer, indeed she does viking reinactment as a hobby and is an expert with a broard sword).

She also admits herself that her first boyfriend was primarily physically motivated, heck she even walks and moves in a pretty none female way, tending to sprawl all over the place, be physically extremely affectionate to friends, and she doesn't particularly give a dam about her appearence, to the extent where once in colidge she wandered into the dining room in a dressing gown and was quite casual about it.

The fact that I love her like a brother, and she's also extremely compassionate (well to people she believes deserve compassion), however, is the most important thing about her, indeed she's one of the few people I've told about my abuse, and because of her completely unqiue view of gender, she absolutely believed me.

This is actually the sort of ideal I mean for gender equality, where traits such as physicality, competitiveness (which doesn't have to be negative), sensory appreciation, care for appearence etc, are seens imply as preferences.

I for instance love dressing up, even in extremely illaborate things (one reason I enjoy doing on stage performances), and also appreciate things liek wearing cologne and decent smelling aftershave. I even enjoyed decorating my flat hugely.

yet at the same time, I run and lift weights, and while I am none competative with others, do appreciate challenging myself (one reason I enjoy things like skeeing and rock climbing, but not games like football).

As you've noticed, I also am extremely verbal, (a traditionally female traite in western society), yet I also appreciate logical discourse and arguement.

i'm not saying I get the gender thing right all the time, only that i do try to behave more like "me" and less like the sterriotypical man, which is something I really wish more people in society tried to do, ---- but as vadrean said, where as it's becoming increasingly easy for women it's becoming harder and harder for men, at least in Britain and probably the states too, ---- over here the death of a female prison guard would raise far more stink, but not because she was "doing man's work" simply because for a young woman to die is a tragedy, where as had she been male I doubt it'd even made the news.

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#408809 - 09/03/12 02:54 PM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
Blessedcurse Offline


Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 93
Vadrian: Yes, the military draft is unbelievable. It is just as you said. They changed it only a few years ago and I suspect there are economic reasons behind more then gender equality. Now noone is forced and anyone can apply. As for the feminist movements take on this, they were divided in to sides. One side advocated military draft compulsory to both sexes, the other that the compulsory military draft was abolished. Nobody with any kind of feminist values wanted the male only draft so I find it really hard to understand why it lasted so long.

Well, older generations I guess. The military service has this role in the swedish male mind of making boys into men. All men age 40+ share the stories of the time in the military. After that generation it wasn't for everybody, the military just chose the ones they wanted. I think the military for all men has done a lot of damage when it comes to masculinity and male identity. I didn't do it myself but from what I've heard all they do is learn to be tough, call each other efeminite names when they fail and glorify violence.

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#408810 - 09/03/12 02:56 PM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
Blessedcurse Offline


Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 93
D E

We seem to have a lot in common. I too am allways most drawn to the androgyn people of both sexes and I have allways felt I don't really fit into the male or female stereotype. To me the people who have a bit of both usually come through as more real and honest, as opposed to people having spent their whole lifes trying to fit into one role or the other. I just wish everyone could be as they were.

Oh, and I totally agree about the romantic dramas and family tv-shows. There is nothing as gender-recreating as a romantic comedy. I espescially hates the ones where the father of the family is paying all bills while being ugly and stupid, and the wife is spending all money on beautystuff. The gender-recreation in those is also more dangerous I think, than in the war movies, because you don't emmediately notice it if you don't have some training or are really pissed of by equality. They promote some ideals really strongly and also reflect the equality already at hand. Why is a married man trying to get away from his wife so incredibly funny?


Edited by Blessedcurse (09/03/12 03:05 PM)

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#408811 - 09/03/12 03:07 PM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
Blessedcurse Offline


Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 93
I meant pissed of by unequality. Of course.

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#408854 - 09/04/12 12:26 AM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2016
Loc: durham, north england
I agree.

I agree completely.

I know myself that I have rather more feminine character traits than masculine ones, but disavowing one of my traits because it belonged to either gender would be incorrect. For instance, I love young babies and children because I get on well with animals, but todlers after the age of 2, or children below the age of rationality, ---- forget it!

Likewise, i am utterly happy doing housework and like my flat to be tidy, but there are some tasks i intrinsically dislike, such as hoovering simply because I dislike them.

I fully agree on sterriotypes in tv, but again this is i think where the feminist movement is to blaime, sinse while they will be up in arms about a war film with a damzel in destresss, they won't mind a comedy about an ugly, stupid man, indeed much as I enjoy the simpsons for it's social commentary, i find the amount of serious! programs with characters like homer simpson who we are expected to take as real representations of men whhile women are seen as inteligent and independent spirited quite worrying.

Still worse, I find the s/xual portrayal of men just plane wrong. For example, while as I said I mostly enjoy the simpsons, i saw a seen the other week that absolutely appauled me, not because it was unrealistic, but because it portrayed whhat was quite obviously s/xual abuse of a young boy in a humerous light.

homer as a ten year old had met, and had his first kiss with the young marge simpson. Going back to find her at the summer camp where she was staying, he runs into her older sister, perhaps 13.

he asks where marge is, and marge's less than pleasant sister gleefully tells him she's gone and never wants to see him again. he says "we kiised, it was special" where upon marge's sister grabs homers face and forceably, and in an adult way kisses him, even though he is protesting and saying no. She then asks sarcastically "was that special?"

We are supposed to think this iss humerous, but frankly i was shocked, particularly sinse had their genders been reversed that just wouldn't! have happened (imagine a 13 year old boy forceably kissing an unwilling 10 year old girl).

Maybe this was simpsons social commentary again, indeed in other stories they have featured quite ironic portrayals of children's behaviour, but the fact that it was seen as okay I find quite disturbing, ---- and in more mainstream comedies or romantic dramas things are even worse (why can a woman hit a man for instance).

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#408873 - 09/04/12 06:05 AM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
Blessedcurse Offline


Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 93
D E: Oh I agree with you SO much about this. Havn't seen this episode of simpsons but have many other examples. Jokes about adult men getting raped by other men seems to be standard and supposedly funny. And sexual abuse against boys too when conducted by women, especially if the woman in question is supposed to be attractive.

I lost interest for a tv show (weeds) in wich a father brings his definitely under age son to a prostitute so that he should lose his virginity and the whole thing is portrayed in a way that is supposed to be humorous, the boy getting really scarred at first and happy afterwards. I was so upset by this! And it is not one single event, this occurs as a pattern in all media. The jokes about male rape and of children getting their first "sexual experience" like it was not real abuse that really affect the real people that are victimized.

The part where we seem to differ is the topic of what feminists do and don't, and that seems to be largely because of different experiences of feminist movement. Because the examples above and the all over medial advocation for this male stereotype are in Sweden really much critisized by feminists while non feminists just state that the feminists are boring, make politics out of everything and destroy the fun.

Actually the question of the humour shows and the portrayal of masculinity, male sexuality and minimized or ridiculed sexual abuse against males seem to be one of the main targets of the modern feminist /gender equality movement. So of course, for me it is really difficult to see how these problems can have been caused by feminism.

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#408881 - 09/04/12 10:21 AM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2016
Loc: durham, north england
As i said blessedcurse, I think "feminism" in sweedan is closer to what I would call gender equalitarianism, than what it is in Britain or America. in academic and political writings, in cryticism of art, heck even in literature, not to mention in the job markit and in business, "feminism" over here means basically promoting the interests of women and more often than not dennigrating those of men. Look at the way for instance in writing these days, it's no longer acceptable to use "he" as the only! pronown when referring to people generally, but increasingly "she" is used exclusively instead and this is seen as perfectly right and fine by most authors in academia.

I've never read or seen a feminist cryticize violence or abuse of a man in the media, where as the converse is utterly true. The same is also true on a smaller scale, ---- as I said above if a man so much as holds a door open for a woman he can be cryticized as being sexist, and a woman can quite freely make sexist statements about men.

Just last week for instance I heard a female radio presenter in one breath complain about adverts that still show girls playing with dolls because it "forces girls into motherhood" and then propose that men should be barred from taking the bus after nine O.clock at night "to protect women who've had a night out from them"

so, it's not right to encourage girls to be mothers, but all men are potential abusers and should be segrigated? When a male caller into the radio show actually said that he! would hate not taking the bus at night because he didn't drink, the female presenter told him that even if he did meet an unpleasant drunk he should be able to protect himself because he was a man.

this is just what I mean by the double standard of feminism, or at least what is called feminism over here, on the one hand deploring female sterriotypes, on the other keeping! those sterriotypes including demonized views of men that make women's lives easier.

I think it is quite significant that though many authors and feminists (including Jk rowling), bitterly complain at the pacivity of female characters in traditional fairy tales, ---- nobody ever mentions the lack of value such tales give to the suffering of men.


As I said,this isn't to say that things are perfect for women, especially around corporate hiering and the job markit, it's only necessary to look at the hole fashion industry to see exactly what ridiculous female sterriotypes do, ---- however where as these sorts of things are frequently and violently attacked in the media by feminists, similar abuses of men are not mentioned at all, ---- indeed many feminists as I've said take the complete opposite line and advocate! the misstreatment or denigration of men.

Obviously, even if they aren't quite as perfect in terms of recognition of abuse, this is something Sweedan does far better than either the Uk or (from what I've seen), the Us, ---- after all, where does most of that sterriotyped media come from?

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#409356 - 09/07/12 08:32 AM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
Blessedcurse Offline


Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 93
I think our main difference is where we see the root of the problem, and thus where we focus our energy in trying to change the system.

To me the root of the problem is quite obvious patriarchy and the celebration of masculinity that follows, with the degradation of femininity. I think that to make any real changes we have to focus on deconstructing the patriarchy in all its parts, wich means also getting rid of those parts of patriarchy that women in general benefit from. I think feminism historically has failed to recognize and deconstruct a lot of these parts of patriarchy that women benefit from and I think that is because feminism has been advocated almost only by women.

It is always easier to recognize the structures that are a disadvantage for you as a person or group. Therefore, I think, to put the parts of patriarchy in focus that is a disadvantage for men, men need to highlight these and take active part in deciding the direction of the feminist movement. Wich is what is happening in Sweden even though the men are not that many.

Focusing on the feminist movement as the opponent I think is just splitting the gender equality struggle, getting us stuck in this "who is the best/worst" war that will never get us anywhere, leaving lots of ground for the people who want to preserve the system as it is.

Did you read the article posted by Yerac? It is written in English and I think the surveys are from many different countries so it should be pretty representative. It says much of what I've been trying to say only in a so much better way smile


Edited by Blessedcurse (09/07/12 08:36 AM)

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#409410 - 09/07/12 04:21 PM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2016
Loc: durham, north england
I will have a look at the artical, sinse it did sound interesting.

I think due to the way that over here "feminism" has a vastly different meaning, I'd myself prefer to attack the problem at it's source rather than adopt modes of language and expression that could too easily be served to fuel the interests of one group or another.

My own belief is that even in a society characterized as patriarchal, both sterriotypes are equally damaging but in different ways.

For the feminine lack of personal power, dependence, lack of expression or freedom outside domestic relationships and a sense of self wortth attributable only by relations to others and how someone is perceived by others, eg, fashion, status, personal appearence, and worth gained from husband and chidlren.

For the masculine lack of emotion, enforced competitiveness, any personal expression limited only to power over others, and a sense of self value attributed only to what can be possessed.

Both also have their own forms of shallowness and arrogance as well, which differ slightly in tone but are similar in their effect, --- -for instance the well dressed woman looking down on the well dressed woman or man looking down on someone not of their social standing, though for the feminine this is based on appearence where as the masculine tends to base it on personal power.


So, just as it's wrong to assume for instance that "a woman's place is in the home" assessing a man only by what wage he earns (the good old provider idea), or by who he knows is equally wrong.

Of course, in both sterriotypes there also are possitive traits.

From the masculine confidence, self reliance and freedom, from the feminine compassion, emotional expression and empathy.

I'd actually prefer myself to remove this language of feminism and patriarchy, and talk instead of gender equality vs traditional values.

In practical terms this would mean attacking both sets of sterriotypes and holding freedom of personal choice and expression irrispective of gender as the core value, with the belief that any differences betwene genders bare only as much significance as individuals themselves want to give them, ---- so that for a woman who doesn't want children the fact that she could have children doesn't have any baring on her life and it's choices, eg, she is paid as much as a man doing the same job.

likewise, a man is not automatically thought of as threatening to those around him without good reason, and if a man does not possess great physical strength or wish to compete in sports or other such activities, that is not held against him.

Unfortunately, male sterriotypes are as I said not recognized as wrong over here, so while I certainly believe both are wrong, the fact that men can! be the victims of sexism just as much as women needs emphasizing, ---- albeit under the proviso that this is not as you said yourself a case of opposition.

A really good example in fact of this sort of view is the statement about abuse on male surviver and the existance of the ms website and organization itself.

it is not that on ms there is a belief that women's victimization in abuse is less important than that of men, still less a refusal to acknolidge that it happens, however ms exists primarily to support male victims of abuse simply because so many other groups in society do not.

if there was no such sexist belief about abuse, there would be no need for specific! organizations aimed at one or other particular gender of victim, ---- though of course for reasons of triggering, comfort etc there would probably still need to e gender specific areas for those who wished, (though of course that is a much different motivation than the women like my nasty lecturer who argue men are all potential abusers so abuse of men doesn't happen).

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#415066 - 11/02/12 10:07 AM Re: Female Perpetrators [Re: Tiff]
Cassialla Offline


Registered: 11/02/12
Posts: 7
I am actually the girlfriend of someone that was sexually abused by the females in his family from he was 9yrs old to about 12.He lost his virginity to one of those females.I just recently found this out.He is an extremely loving person,very affectionate and aware of my emotional needs.He's not very sexual tho,it comes in spurts.Sometimes I wait a whole 2weeks before we have sex only because I try to give him space because I want him to know I care and understand what he may feel toward women sexually in his adult life.But I am a woman at my sexual peak and have needs and don't want to pressure him.I try to use different methods like sex toys.I have tried to please him with fellatio but he won't let me do it and simply says that it does nothing for him.AND he just revealed to me that he is not sensitive at all down there.So I am very distraught because here I was thinking he was enjoying sex and feeling everything when he was not!He does say that he enjoys it because there's the strong emotional attachment he has with me and he loves me but he just is not sensitive there.Do you think his abuse has de-sensitized him?I am so mad at those women for doing that to him and that part of his adult life is taken away from him.Feels like the relationship will never be complete if that problem is not fixed.I want him to want me like I want him and feel what I feel sexually.Are there any ladies with this same problem?

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