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#393466 - 04/14/12 07:32 PM Re: lie detector test by abuser - TRIGGERS [Re: phoenix321]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6811
Loc: USA
One of my concerns is that people who are sociopathic can pass lie detector tests. They don't flinch mentally when they lie. That's for the same reason they don't flinch when they abuse. I think the main reason is that they don't have normal boundaries for what is true or false. What is true to a sociopathic person is what benefits them. In matters of abuse, they can believe that the person they abuse belongs to them and deserves what they're getting. Hence they don't even have undisguised guilt.

Some abusers are not as sociopathic, and in theory at least their responses could successfully be monitored by a lie detector. These persons would be capable of feeling guilt or remorse. Books by qualified psychologists estimate that 10% to 15% of the population is sociopathic. Standard personality tests (MMPI) could detect whether a person is sociopathic or not.

The way a lie detector works is that it picks up small changes in several body functions: Increased sweating, and changes in breathing and heart beat.

It is my understanding that the FBI or CIA has trained agents in picking up lying in small changes in facial expression. There is a book on this, and there was a recent documentary on TV. But it takes lots of practice to pick up these changes because they happen very quickly.

http://www.amazon.com/Liespotting-Proven-Techniques-Detect-Deception/dp/0312601875/

The next best and easiest thing for you to do is to get a really good personality test like the MMPI. These are administered by qualified psychologists. This will tell you a lot about the person.

Puffer




Edited by pufferfish (04/14/12 08:16 PM)

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#393542 - 04/15/12 11:52 AM Re: lie detector test by abuser - TRIGGERS [Re: confusion4life]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5777
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
I've asked some of my colleagues who do polygraphy and will let you know what they say.
Ken

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#393553 - 04/15/12 02:58 PM Re: lie detector test by abuser - TRIGGERS [Re: confusion4life]
peroperic2009 Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 3599
Loc: South-East Europe
Ela I don't know if you have checked this site about polygraphs in Europe:
http://www.europeanpolygraph.org/european_members.htm
you could easily send them some questions regarding this all issue, maybe they could give you some advice...
Pero
_________________________
My story

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#393570 - 04/15/12 07:29 PM Re: lie detector test by abuser - TRIGGERS [Re: confusion4life]
Anniemy4sons Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/29/11
Posts: 98
Loc: NJ
Ela,
I'm not sure I understand your need for a polygraph. From my perspective (in my opinion only), your daughter gave you all of the answers that you need. He does not deserve your support no matter what happened to him as a child. We as adults have a responsibility to protect children no matter who their perp happens to be or the perps circumstances.
He needs to recover on his own. I would be concentrating on my daughter and other children. Her recovering and the children's recovery, your own recovery.
Protect your children because if he is lying and gets away with it (polygraphs of all kinds are flawed). you could possibly be putting your daughter at risk.
A Father sexually fantasizing about his daughter sexually is enough. Whether he penetrated her or not doesn't matter. This behavior starts with a thought. The risk alone is not worth it in my opinion.
I don't mean to sound mean or judgmental you are in a difficult position but in my opinion, were I a child I would believe you were choosing him over me(the child, your daughter) by remaining in his life to help him.
One thing I did learn is perps rarely change. They rarely stop for good. The compulsion is too strong to stay caged forever.
God speed, you are in my prayers.
_________________________
God is my teacher, Jesus my comfort and the Holy Spirit my protector.
I AM Listening...

Thank you Mother Mary.
Pray the Rosary every day. http://www.comepraytherosary.org/

I BELIEVE IN HER PROMISE.

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#393610 - 04/16/12 09:19 AM Re: lie detector test by abuser - TRIGGERS [Re: phoenix321]
confusion4life Offline


Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 109
Loc: Italy
dear phoenix,

thank you for your post. i have also read about these things, many of these things like body language....and even micro expressions. i am also learning them steadily and whenever i get time where i can really concentrate and nobody disturbs me. i am really trying my best to learn all those things. i am also in contact with anna salter. the problem is, a human can never get as much accurancy as a program, because as far as i read, the best human lie detector has got 76%. i know that is a lot and still all the sociopaths are excluded there.
i am just trying to learn as much as i can and to cover as much as i can to secure my kids, as they want contact with him and also because he is also a survivor. thats the only reason he still has a chance with the family and me. but i do need all the possibilites that are there, to make sure, he really WANTS to change and really IS changing. he is a survivor, but he is also a child abuser, a pervert perp, a....everything that people like you and me hate. but then again, today...he had a flashback outside on the way from the canteen back to his office. his heart was racing, his left arm and leg went numb sort of, he couldnt move his legs anymore....and all this because he just found out that he was raped on regular bases when he was 8 or just before. he usually talks to his inner kid on the way and today he asked him, why he is always at that same place they used to live, why he is not moving from there. the answer from the kid was without words but the kid made it clear to the adult that he is there because he has been living thru this for the past 30 years.
my husband needs me - i cant just leave him. i am not a bad enough person to do that. and it would also harm my daughter, the one who was abused by him, and all the other kids, because all she wishes for is that he changes and she somehow somewhere one day gets her dad back.

sorry, i know it doesnt fit here, i just had to write it off my heart just now.

ela
_________________________
everything is always okay in the end, if it's not, then it's not the end

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#393612 - 04/16/12 09:26 AM Re: lie detector test by abuser - TRIGGERS [Re: pufferfish]
confusion4life Offline


Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 109
Loc: Italy
thank you puffer! thats the second book i am on and i am taking all the time i get to concentrate on learning it.
i have been learning from this very same book for the last 6 weeks and it takes lots and lots of concentration. but i am doing another book at the same time. i want all the small small details. it is hard but practice helps a lot. funny thing is, i can see the kids lies...like mum, can i have money, mine is finished smile
but you are right, the kids are no sociopaths. the father/ abuser of our kids, i am still not sure. i think he has a lower level of emphasy than normal people but is not completely like a sociopath. but i am getting the brain scans from the hospital next week and then i will know more. certain things are seen there also. i am holding onto every little thing i can and i am learning.
he did a voice analyses, not a polygraph. thats why the longer answers were necessary.
he is a survivor and if i get lost from his life, he will never be only survivor, he will also be abuser again. i have to try to do everything possible to make that not happen. there are too many innocent kids in this world - NOT FAIR - abuse is not fair and not right. it has to stop. and that is also my responsibility amongst all other adults on this planet.

ela
_________________________
everything is always okay in the end, if it's not, then it's not the end

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#393613 - 04/16/12 09:31 AM Re: lie detector test by abuser - TRIGGERS [Re: confusion4life]
Esposa Offline
F&F Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 675
Loc: NJ
Sorry if this comes out wrong.... and I am very empathetic to your situation.... but my concern is that your child is too young to really understand this. All over these boards are people who ask over and over again why their parents didn't protect them. Your husband needs help and deserves it for sure. But unfortunately it seems you have to choose between them for now and I hope that you will choose your daughter. She doesn't know it now, but the person she will become in her life rests heavily on the decisions you make now.

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#393614 - 04/16/12 09:36 AM Re: lie detector test by abuser - TRIGGERS [Re: Anniemy4sons]
confusion4life Offline


Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 109
Loc: Italy
dear anniemy,

thank you for your post. my brain also says that very same thing like you in your post.
but the kids are not at risk. there is NO CHANCE for him to get hold of the kids, unless he kidnapps them from school and thats not happening, cause he is too much of a coward to do that, at least until now.
even if a million lie detectors and a million psychologists and psychiatrists told me that he wont abuse anymore, i would still not take the risk. he has absolutely no access to any of the children, unless the children ask for it and then its always with me. not one second is he alone with any of them. i am not that crazy to ever trust him with a child anymore. believe me, my shock was deep enough to never ever get that kind of trust back, no chance.

you are also right, saying he doesnt deserve it.
but he completely depends on me, he depends on me being there for him. i know for sure if i am not, he will escape from his court case to africa (he got relatives there) and then what about the kids there. he cannot heal as much as he is doing now, if he is without my support. i got to try my best. i am responsible for children as i am an adult and thats a fact, just like all the adults are responsible for all the kids, because kids are innocent and vuneralbe. any adult can do anything to them.
i am concentrating on my daughters healing and she is doing REALLY WELL! i am proud of her. mike13 also had a talk with her and he was astonished how well she is, how far she is and what an open mind she has. she is crying over it, she gets lots of rage and puts it into sports and the new boxing sack and directly at her abuser as well (she confronts him - always with me). she decided not to act out cause she knows the dangers of it. she knows about the fantasies, about the looks on abusers faces...she knows. she also told him he chose the wrong kid, and he did! she is a strong girl of 15 whom i will help as much as i possibly can to get thru with the healing so that she is ok before she gets into her first real relation.
no way will i support him over her. he is totally unimportant compared to her! i know what he has done. but he needs me and i am there for him, AFTER everything else is done.

thanks for your concern, i truely appreciate it. it also helps me, because sometimes i do forget myself over everyone else. thanks for putting me a bit back on the floor.

ela
_________________________
everything is always okay in the end, if it's not, then it's not the end

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#393615 - 04/16/12 09:47 AM Re: lie detector test by abuser - TRIGGERS [Re: Esposa]
confusion4life Offline


Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 109
Loc: Italy
dear esposa,

my daughter is 15 now and you wont believe what she understands. he can not get hold of her, nor of any of the other kids, EVER, without me right there in between them. he lives at a rented flat. i do concentrate on her first, then the other kids, then my job and then only on him. i am just scared about the decisions he makes if i am not there for him. i would never choose him over my child/ children.
my daughter herself is not thru with him as a father and also not as an abuser. she does confront him. she wants to confront him. she is a strong girl, you wont believe! i am not overestimating her, she IS strong! we are both strong. my daughters biggest wish for now (due to her) is that he changes to be the father she actually needed and not the abuser. she wants him to change into a totally non abusive person and into someone who openly fights against abuse.
if you feel like, maybe you read a few other posts about my daughter or you can also ask mike13. the two of them had a talk. he was also estonished by this 15 year old girl who just gets everything right, because she is not alone. she has me. one more thing. we are not the "typical" family where abuse happens. i am not weak and never taking decisions. i am not sick or jobless. i am not drug or alcohol addicted, actually i never take any of them. the only stupid thing i do is smoking and that also only since my daughter talked to me about the abuse that he has done to her. this abuse is the only black spot in her white life line. she had a perfect childhood and yes, it does exist, the perfect childhood, because i was a good mum. my only mistake was that i didnt see what HE was/ is. i trusted him. she didnt talk for a long time because she wanted to protect him from going to jail. she knew, i would report him, which i also did. the court trail will probably be in summer.

i dont have a choice. i need to help also him. there are too many innocent kids out there. at least i need to try my best.

thank you for your concern,
ela
_________________________
everything is always okay in the end, if it's not, then it's not the end

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#393616 - 04/16/12 09:51 AM Re: lie detector test by abuser - TRIGGERS [Re: peroperic2009]
confusion4life Offline


Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 109
Loc: Italy
hey pero, thanks for this link.

i will contact the ones in spain and/ or dublin. both is reachable by a short plane trip. ken told me i should rather go for a polygraph than a voice analyses. i will definately talk to them. i hope they are not the same like those in germany i had contacted before. there you can ask 5 questions with yes and no answers only and they charge you 1500 euros per question. i thought thats crazy.
for the voice analyses one i paid 700 euros and it seems sort of ok. i know this is much cheaper in the usa, but here is not really any choice.

thanks pero,
ela
_________________________
everything is always okay in the end, if it's not, then it's not the end

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