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#393342 - 04/13/12 03:51 PM lie detector test by abuser - might trigger
confusion4life Offline


Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 109
Loc: Italy
hi survivors,
esp, mike13, sasuva,
pero, older1, somaticfilter...

as by now i have a lot of friends on this site, i would like to post the lie detector results the abuser/ father had to do so that i believe a thing he says about his own abuse. i have always supported him, but as he had crossed the line, i just needed confirmation. i will post the questions and the answers and if/ if not he said the truth.

1 topic, the abuse on my daughter and his abusive side in general:

question: is there anything that i dont know yet about the abuse you have done to my daughter.
answer: no, i have told you everything, including all the small details. i am not sure about how many times i have abused her because it was too many times to know for sure, but about all the actions i did, you know the full truth.
answer of the system: truth with a minor sos (say-or-stop)factor, means he might be hiding something really small or is not 100% sure if he has said it really all, maybe because there were too many times and he himself cannot possibly be sure if he said each and every detail.
question: have you ever penetrated my daughter with anything or your finger or your penis?
answer: no, i have never penetrated her with anything, also not with any of my fingers or my penis. i never even showed her my penis.
answer of the system: he said the truth
question: how did you feel when you abused your daughter?
answer: i felt powerful. i felt i had the full control over what is happening. i felt very sexual. i also felt it was wrong what i did, i knew it was wrong what i did and even when i did it i was scared that somehow you find out or she talks. i also knew it was wrong towards you. i thought i deserve this and it is my right to have this.
answer of the system: he said the truth with a minor doubt, which is suspected to be there, because he himself is not fully sure what exactly else he might have felt.
question: what did you feel for sandra in between abuses?
answer: i always felt she is my daughter. i felt i am proud of her to have her as my daughter. i felt i should stop it and i knew it was wrong what i was doing. i tried to control it many times and then i also didnt do it, but then i did it again.
answer of the system: largest part of the answer is NOT true.
question: do you still feel anything abusive for our daughter?
answer: no, i dont want to feel anything abusive for her anymore and i have told you everything considering that. i dont allow any fantasy anymore, not with sandra nor any other abusive fantasy.
answer of the system: basically true but subject shows insecure parts on the fantasies. this might be due to himself not being sure if he can really make sure that there are never any abusive fantasies coming to him anymore.
question: do you still, after she told me about the abuse, use fantasy or have you used fantasy to masturbate with my daughter in your mind?
answer: no, after the abuse came out, i never masturbated with her. after that last time i told you about, i have not masturbated at all anymore. i have completely stopped it because it is always abusive and i dont want that.
answer of the system: true

question: have you ever abused or thought of abusing any other of our kids except of sandra?
answer: i have never thought about it, it didnt even come to me.
answer of the system: basically true with a minor sos (say or stop). there is some secret there, something subject doesnt want to say. this might be due to being questioned about this several times before the test. subject was then forced to think about abuse of the other children, so the part that "it didnt even come to me" is not entirely true, it shows say or stop signs. subject has not abused any of the other children, but might have thought about it due to being questioned.

question: have you ever abused any other people you have not told me yet?
answer: no, you know everything i have done. of course in my fantasy i have, because my sexual fantasy is always abusive. but there was nobody small, no children.
answer of the system: generally true, but a higher factor of cheating (not saying the truth) about the part that there were no children in subjects fantasy. he might be referring to the actual abuse he has done, as the daughter was still a child.

2. topic: your relation with me and the other children:

question: what exactly do you feel for me?
answer: i love you. i have always loved you. i know i have done only wrong to you but i have always loved you. you are the most important person in my life for me. i love you as much as i can possibly love someone.
i also love my kids. you and the family comes first in my life. i love all my kids as my kids.
answer of the system: true
question: as what do you love me? as a guide in your life, as wife, as best friend, as a person you can torture mentally, as what?
answer: no, i dont want anything bad for you. i truely love you. i love you as my wife and as my partner in life and i want to grow old with you. i am scared to lose you.
answer of the system: true
question: do you have any problems with my body in general and sexually?
answer: no, i dont have any problems with your body. for me you are fine the way you are. i never had any problems with your body, the problems all come from me. it has nothing to do with you. i also really like your breasts and i am just telling you this because you are insecure about it, because of what i did in our relation and the way i neglected you.
answer of the system: true
question: what do you think about me because i have reported you to the police and you are going to face a court trail because you abused our child?
answer: i am scared sometimes what might come up, if i have to go to jail. but i dont hate you for that or feel anything bad about you regarding your report to the police or the court. i deserve it. i have done this.
answer of the system: mainly true, but the part with him deserving it shows lack of emotions for how sensitive the topic is. this might be because he accepted his "fate".

3. topic: the abuse done to you:
question: do you really know that you yourself have been abused in your childhood?
answer: yes, i know i was abused, otherwise where would all these memories and flashbacks come from now. i know for sure that it is true and i remember things now. all that i told you about my csa is true.
answer of the system: true
question: you said you found your inner child. what does that mean and is it true. please tell me again how you found it and what happens there.
answer: ok, i was thinking of my mother. i sort of remembered that she was beating me up many more times then i used to remember. and i was thinking about this place where i used to play marbles and my mother ran out of the house and she beat me up in front of all my friends because she said it was gambling. from that place or from the thought about the truth of my mothers treatment, i somehow got this kid. i dont know exactly how. i just got him all of a sudden. he is about 8 years old and he has all this rage. he was full of rage. he looked dirty and not taken care of in any way. then i told him there is a family waiting for him and that he is loved. then i hugged him. since then i can sometimes communicate with him but not always.
answer of the system: question is not possible to be evaluated because the question includes imaginations and the system is not able to give a sure answer to such questions. it shows rather truth than false.
question: how many people do you think abused you and what about your father:
answer: i dont know about my father. i really dont know if he has abused me or not. i have no memory on that. only in one flashback i got this image where my father had my penis in his mouth but then the face kept on changing to someone else, i dont know. i know i have been abused by at least three differnt people and bharath was there all the time. he was the main abuser.
answer of the system: generally true but sos (say or stop) subject might be hiding some information.
question: do you really want to do everything to heal from this abuse, esp considering that you are acting out by being abusive?
answer: ok, if or if not i heal is not that important. i know for sure i wont abuse anymore, i would rather kill myself before i do something like that again. of course i want to heal from the abuse, but you need you for that. i dont think i can do it alone. i am not sure. but even if you leave me, i will do my best to heal. but i will never abuse anymore.
answer of the system: generally true, but the part with "i dont think i can do it alone....i will do my best to heal" is doubtful.

4. topic: avoiding abuse in the future:
question: how sure are you about never abusing anymore in the future? what do you do about it?
answer: i have stopped masturbating with fantasy. i have stopped masturbating at all. i dont allow any fantasy at all. when i see someone, i push it away. i know it will be abusive. no matter what happens, i will never abuse anyone anymore.
i am trying to deal with my past so that i can understand myself better, why i am an abuser. maybe one day this will really go away from me. it is also less since i found my kid but i dont want to be this at all.
answer of the system: true, but subject shows self doubts. this might be due to subject wanting to stop being abusive but is not sure of success.

question. do you think if you go to jail for a very long time, it will teach you that you cant abuse?
answer: if i go to jail i wont be able to heal from my abuse as i can outside. i need to heal and deal with my abuse so that i can be sure what i am. if i go to jail or not, doesnt really matter that much because i know what i have done. but i am scared of it. i dont think it will teach me not to abuse because thats not because of jail or not jail, that is because of me.
answer of the system: sos (say or stop), subject is hiding some information. answer is higly doubtful.

last topic: the truth and lies:
question: have you lied to me in any way or hidden stuff from me which you would rather not tell in the last 4 weeks, since we had the last talk about truth?
answer: no, i have not lied anything to you. i am talking about real lies about masturbation or fantasies or abusing or my feelings for you and the family. i dont really know about small lies like "yes, your tshirt is nice" because i dont even see such things.
answer of the system: the answer is slightly doubtful. there is a minor sos factor. this might be because of the example he used about small lies, because subject might have never thought about it before.

one last question: have you ever fantasized about men/ boys sexually or have men attracted you in that way?
answer: no, i have never had any fantasies with men or boys in any sexual way. i never had that at all.
answer of the system: highly doubtful. the subject has definately thought of man in a sexual way but it might have been very long back or just vage.


then there was this overall evaluation which said:
despite the answers being mainly true, the subject showed less emotions for such a sensitive topic than normally assumed, in the question about him going to jail and the last question.

this was the test. there are still a few rather unimportant questions i asked,so that i am sure the test is ok. he was wondering in the test why i would ask that, but its just for my own security that at least this test works properly.

ok guys. i thought i support this crazy man/ abuser/ survivor, at least until the court decides on him. i will not ask for too many years of jail i think, unless sandra decides to send him to hell, then she can definately do so.

if any of you have any opinion on this, please let me know. i am always thankful to get advice from you!

manuela
_________________________
everything is always okay in the end, if it's not, then it's not the end

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#393347 - 04/13/12 06:31 PM Re: lie detector test by abuser - might trigger [Re: confusion4life]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5778
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
I don't know how polygraphy is in Italy and I am not a polygraphist. However, I am familiar with polygraph in my work with abusers. Basically, a polygraph works on the physiological responses to a person (breathing, sweating and other emotionally driven respobejnses to a series of questions.) The answers can only be asked of behaviors and answered by a yes or no. The questions cannot be multi-layered (Did you feel guilt when you molested her?) and have to be clearly understood (molest is not an accurate description... must be "did you insert your finger in his anus?"

The questions are limited to three or four salient questions and other questions are used for calibration. So, a question of "Did you ever fly to the moon?" is legitimate for a calibration. ("Now tell me that you have flown to the moon").

There are so many bad questions in this polygraph that I can't even comprehend that the results would be accurate.

If you wish, I would refer the questions/dialog to one of my polygraphist colleagues if you would like.

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#393349 - 04/13/12 08:04 PM Re: lie detector test by abuser - might trigger [Re: confusion4life]
SamV Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5942
Loc: Talladega, Alabama, USA
Hello Manuela,

It is so important to provide secure safety with regards to the relationship with your husband and your children. What ever you need to do to protect them, encourage recovery and find relief yourself are priorities.

I think this is certainly a good step, and like Ken mentions, polygraphs are finite, and they are a good tool in bringing resolution to this difficult situation.

Sam
_________________________
MaleSurvivor Moderator Emeritus 2012 - 2014

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#393372 - 04/13/12 11:36 PM Re: lie detector test by abuser - might trigger [Re: confusion4life]
peroperic2009 Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 3600
Loc: South-East Europe
Hi Ella,
interesting questions and answers. I'm not expert but I don't like his answer about Sandra:
"question: what did you feel for sandra in between abuses?
answer: i always felt she is my daughter. i felt i am proud of her to have her as my daughter. i felt i should stop it and i knew it was wrong what i was doing. i tried to control it many times and then i also didnt do it, but then i did it again.
answer of the system: largest part of the answer is NOT true."
It seems to me that he has seen her more as object and that he says something what he should say... Also I'm not sure about answers relating to you, maybe it sounds to me like he is aware of some of your insecurities and trying to give answer that would be the best; I wonder has he felt those in first place or he learned about it trough conversation....
Anyway it is good that he said mainly true.
Please consider sending all questions/answers to Ken Singer and his friend. Let some experts see it.
I don't know about jail and would he heave some treatment there? But he will definitely need some very good therapist with some serious references...
_________________________
My story

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#393389 - 04/14/12 02:09 AM Re: lie detector test by abuser - might trigger [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
confusion4life Offline


Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 109
Loc: Italy
hi ken,

it was a voice analyses test, not a normal polygraph test. they said i should ask the questions so that he has to talk himself as much as possible. then the system analyses the pitches and emotions in the voice to an extend that the system also understands when a person is hiding something.
before i did this test, i had called the fbi (the number i found online) and asked them, which test is the most accurate one of all of them. they told me about this test and thats why i went for this one.
if the test person answers only yes or no in the test, the answer cannot be evaluated as well as when the person makes one or more sentences when answering.

ela
_________________________
everything is always okay in the end, if it's not, then it's not the end

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#393392 - 04/14/12 02:16 AM Re: lie detector test by abuser - might trigger [Re: peroperic2009]
confusion4life Offline


Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 109
Loc: Italy
hi pero,

thanks for your answer. the results i got till now are basically just an overlook to the questions i have asked. i am still waiting for the detailed results about where exactly in what question he has lied and where exactly he said the truth.
i also made out of that answer about sandra not being true, that all the time of abuse and also in between abuse he saw her only as object for abuse, because that part with her being his daughter is clearly a lie. i personally think this is due to all the time masturbating and fantasizing about his own daughter/ victim. i dont think she ever had a father from the day and a few weeks, maybe months, before he had started abusing her and i hate him for that.

ela
_________________________
everything is always okay in the end, if it's not, then it's not the end

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#393397 - 04/14/12 02:39 AM Re: lie detector test by abuser - TRIGGERS [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
confusion4life Offline


Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 109
Loc: Italy
dear ken,

i was told by the testing people that i should ask my questions this way. they sat with me for one hour plus before he was called in for the questioning. they instructed me to ask the questions this way. it was in austria, eisenstadt, wagner sicherheit. the questions were asked in english, as this is his language. the results i got in german, as that is their mother tongue and they asked me if they could give it to me in german. yesterday i got this short report i posted, i translated it into my simple english because i cant really speak/ write better english. i have also asked about the facts of the abuse, but nothing that i didnt know before came out and the answers to that part were all true.
he abused her for 4 years, how many times is not possible to know, because he himself doesnt know. he didnt penetrate her with anything and he didnt take his clothes off. he masturbated on her leg and on her vagina, him with clothes on, her having to take it that he licked and sucked her breasts (after she had some and also before she had some). he licked her vagina once, but he would have done it more often, but she squeezed her legs so hard, he couldnt get hold of it, without her shouting and that he didnt risk. he touched her bumb, but not inside or at the entrance. this was due to her being scared when he came and she immediately turned onto her side, almost stomach. he couldnt turn her around then, because she fought it. this asshole should have known she would talk because the last few months he could only get hold of her breasts, but this is also only because she protected her mouth. she didnt want to be kissed and used her arms to protect her mouth. so he had the breasts free and this was easier for her than her mouth. for 4 years he tried to kiss her on the mouth and didnt manage even once. he used to kiss and lick around her neck and breasts. when he went down to stomach with hands or face, she squeezed and told him to stop. he got confused over that and left the room.
there are no real misunderstandings here about what he has done, because she remembers everything clearly. and he also went to her one day asking, if she cant just accept this somehow and she asked him if he was crazy. he felt very disappointed. i dont really understand how he could possibly think at any point that she would say yes.
during all the abuses she couldnt do anything against him twice. the first time he touched her, cause she was shocked. that time she went to him in the evening and told him, not to do this anymore. he promised her not to. the second time she became stiff and sort of a robot, when he first licked her vagina. she couldnt move and her body didnt follow her. she stared at the lamp above her. she had her arms on her face. after that she cried.

my question if he has done anything else than what i know about, was based on the things i already knew. and it seems that was all (what a stupid way to say it, cause it was more than enough!!!), due to the test, it was all.

ken, if you say this test is nothing worth, then i dont have any other chance in europe. i dont know about the uk, but i didnt find any other lie detector test in italy, austria, germany, switzerland. these are the countries i can access within a few hours. unforunately over here its very uncommon to have lie detector tests, because courts dont accept them.
so basically this test is all i had access to. it was 700 euros for the test and another 500 to go there and come back. but if you tell me, that this is nothing worth and not even an indication, and i should not listen to it in any way, then i would definately also take him to the usa and do another one/ few over there. this is only possible if he is still a free man until the summer holidays. i depend on the holidays as i am a teacher and i have 5 kids, of which 4 go to school.

thank you for your answer!
ela
_________________________
everything is always okay in the end, if it's not, then it's not the end

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#393416 - 04/14/12 08:39 AM Re: lie detector test by abuser - TRIGGERS [Re: confusion4life]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5778
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
ela:
From the discussions I have read among the polygraphists who are members of the Association for the Treatment of Sexual Abusers (the largest and most respected group of professionals working with sexual abusers) is that the VSA (voice stress analyzer) has been to be inconsistent and less reliable than polygraph.

I can post your question to some of the polygraphers on the listserve to see if they will respond more accurately to your concerns, if you'd like.

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#393441 - 04/14/12 12:06 PM Re: lie detector test by abuser - TRIGGERS [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
confusion4life Offline


Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 109
Loc: Italy
dear ken,

how do i get hold of a polygraph test when there is none in europe. that would mean i wait until summer to get proper answers. there is no way this can be done online. do you have any suggestions?

thanks,
ela
_________________________
everything is always okay in the end, if it's not, then it's not the end

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#393464 - 04/14/12 07:15 PM Re: lie detector test by abuser - TRIGGERS [Re: confusion4life]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
E/A,

Polygraphs are flawed. People can learn to lie effectively with practice. Lookup the different kinds of physical responses that indicate lying and truth telling. Body language is the only real polygraph. Here's the big ones:

How To Tell If Someone Is Lying:
There are nine basic signs that liars exhibit. Not all of these signs may be witnessed, and not all mean that they are lying. They are just guidelines as to the body language that many liars display.

1) A change in the tone and pitch of the person's voice.
2) An increased or decreased rate of speech.
3) Stumbling over sentences, stopping to think during a sentence, increased use of 'um' and 'uh'.
4) A change in the amount of eye contact. Normal people make eye contact between one-fourth and one-half of the time that they are talking to you. Liars tend to make less eye contact.
5) Turning their shoulders away. (avoidance)
6) Looking very far to the left, right, up or down more than twice.
7) Touching their face or scratching their head.
8) Involuntary moving, jiggling, scratching, or other fidgeting of the legs or feat.
9) Crossing of the arms and/or legs.

I'd add fast blinking as another. Some can lie direct to other people's faces, but those subtle changes betray them.

Looking up to the right/left means they don't know. Looking past a person (eyes move to a spot behind but straight head) means they are conjuring up a lie. Looking down is lying. Now, I make less eye contact due to abuse. But, the other movements tattle on such people like me.

There is supposedly 16 different physical changes for men and 21 for women. Others, whining, anger, too much hand movement.

Look at voice changes. It's better to ask questions that require a simple yes or no answer (close-ended questions) than ones that require a paragraph/explanation (open-ended).

With those in mind, ask a question you know the answer to here and there. That physical appearance is your guide. Ask for no smoking or drinking. See if they violate the request with smoking. That's nerves. Good luck.

http://how2dostuff.blogspot.com/2005/11/how-to-tell-if-someone-is-lying.html

More: http://akorra.com/2010/03/04/top-10-ways-to-tell-if-someone-is-lying/


Edited by phoenix321 (04/14/12 07:17 PM)
Edit Reason: add
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Phoenix

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