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#393358 - 04/13/12 09:10 PM Homophobia Is Close to Home
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 411
Loc: west coast
This was just published the other day. It basically says if you have a parent specifically father that was Authoritarian overbearing /hyperdogmatic and unaccepting of the childs core sense of self. This child is more likely to grow up homophobic due to a real reaction to an internalized fight against their repressed self. http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/psp/102/4/815/

Their implicit orientation(gay) is repressed and squelched by an explicit orientation( hyper not gay). So to distance themselves as far away from the possibility that they could even admit it to themselves let alone others, the boy/man does an external 180.
CBC explains it a little less technically here:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-5...study-suggests/
The point is, curing gay or not accepting gayness may be a way the boy/man causes a defensive mechanism called " REACTION FORMATION" . This is where there is such an inner conflict the the anxiety producing unacceptable emotions and impulses are mastered by exageration of the opposite tendency.

Holy cow, this is the same week the guy who wrote the book on ex-gay finally recanted saying he got it wrong. Which was posted in the lgbt forum buy Markk
http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/...grams_Can_Work/

So here we have a link showing these two things are linked. Does anyone think Bachman and that ilk are NOT gay? Guys like Ted Haggard preaching against gays, oh and the rent boy thing with you know who. There have been many, cuz its a part of whole - I need to prove I am not gay so I will hurt those guys so "real" guys can see I am not one of the "them".

It is time to finally put all the Ex -gay stuff to bed.

Its not that your father didnt bond with you, its he didnt accept you as you were/are. Further maybe cuz he didnt accept himself. Your experience may have been his inner hatred turned against you with tragic results.

This further supports a study published in scientific american which ironically mirrors shakespeare's quote about protesting too much. So isnt that what ex-gay bs is ? Protesting too much. Men and women comfortable in their identity and sexuality couldnt care less about who someone else sleeps with.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=single-angry-straight-male

I am not saying men with attraction towards other men are necessarily gay, but if this has been an issue, Then there is at least the possibility that the boy/man is gay. Whether the attraction towards males is wanted or not. And honestly - ITS OK.


Edited by 1lifenow (04/16/12 10:41 AM)
_________________________
The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

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#393417 - 04/14/12 08:41 AM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
I wholeheartedly disagree with your conclusion. I don't believe one man's opinion - one day one thing, one day another (changed due to old age and fear of a bad legacy maybe?) means more than one man's opinion.

I don't believe its as simple as you might put it. Besides, there is a complete lack of scientific agreement/basis for the roots of orientation. It is generally accepted that it is a combo of nature/nurture, not just nature.

I don't believe in calling the movement ex-gay. I think that's a problem. I think its about all men, whether at one time gay-oriented or not, finding comfort in being able to move toward sexual wholeness regardless of whether the outcome is somehow threatening to certain groups heavily invested in confirming their own beliefs (beliefs, not facts).

I feel strongly on this topic and will always counter what I consider too much one-sidedness on the issue of orientation. However, it is not done with hostility.




Edited by EdfromNYC (04/14/12 10:07 AM)
_________________________
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#393689 - 04/16/12 10:36 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: EdfromNYC]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 411
Loc: west coast
I appreciate your response Ed, I respect others views and your remarks are valuable.

I wanted to go throught your response a little more thoroughly so I can understand it better.
Originally Posted By: EdfromNYC
I wholeheartedly disagree with your conclusion. I don't believe one man's opinion - one day one thing, one day another (changed due to old age and fear of a bad legacy maybe?) means more than one man's opinion.

Ed i am not sure what conclusion you disagree with. One mans opinion changing is not what happened here. He is the author the has written a treatise that is used as a basis and justification for a viewpoint. The scientfic method holds that when new evidence is presented that an author is justified in changing the original conclusion. His work was not written in stone.

Its very similar to Mike Wallace from 60 minutes when they did the first tv story on gay men in America. He later retracted it, saying that he was just going on what the Drs and the time said. http://www.edgeonthenet.com/news/national/news//131887/mike_wallace’s_death_brings_back_a_notorious_cbs_anti-gay_documentary_ "I should have known better" he later said.

Originally Posted By: EdfromNYC
I don't believe its as simple as you might put it. Besides, there is a complete lack of scientific agreement/basis for the roots of orientation. It is generally accepted that it is a combo of nature/nurture, not just nature.

I did not say that it was just nature, I only said that given this set of circumstances and given the evidence coming to light through objective observation, that it is certainly a possibility and may account for some confusion of orienation.
Originally Posted By: EdfromNYC
I don't believe in calling the movement ex-gay. I think that's a problem. I think its about all men, whether at one time gay-oriented or not, finding comfort in being able to move toward sexual wholeness regardless of whether the outcome is somehow threatening to certain groups heavily invested in confirming their own beliefs (beliefs, not facts).

I feel strongly on this topic and will always counter what I consider too much one-sidedness on the issue of orientation. However, it is not done with hostility.

The term Ex-gay is from the movement itself, i am not calling them that , they are. But i agree, its about men coming to terms with sexuality and achieving sexual wholeness. Thats the goal for all of us.

There is no threatening by a group "heavily invested in confirming their own beliefs". These studies were published in peer reviewed journals, thats is the scientific process. And again i am not sure what you mean beliefs not facts. Not sure what your referring to here. I take it to mean that is it an opinion that these men who are homophobic actually have attraction to other males. That is a fact, not a belief.

The study does not differentiate or attempt to say the are gay. Only they have gay like tendencies in terms of sexuality. As we know there can be attraction to males without necessarily being gay. But if men repress this possibility, their maladaptive behavior that does not allow a person to be who they could be without all the inner conflict and turmoil imposed by others expectations, religious dogma and societal acceptance.

Again its not about one sidedness, I am presenting what is out there, what has been published not mearly opined. These are not my words or conclusions, but the more information all of us have here, regardless on our path, isnt that healthier for everyone?

Its interesting many months ago. This was this view was presented by another member on here who quoted this:

Elephant in the Pew: Same Sex Attraction http://victoryatl.com/p/12162/Default.aspx?ReturnUrl=&MediaID=281

I listened to it several times just to make sure i got it correct. This is his direct quote at the end.
‘If god cant change a little thing like sexuality then he is not a true god’
Is this view one sided? You are correct, orientation seems in humans to have multiple components to its genesis, however one thing has been clear there has Never been any evidence that the above statement is true, in any way.

Perhaps it would be better if we just accepted that, that somehow you could just change from gay to straight or straight to gay. Firstly it seems to be a one way street. I dont see any or know of any gay organization trying to convert any straight people and. Second, it would be so much easier NOT to be gay. Easier on the families, the person themselves not being subject to being a second class citizen without the same rights as straight people. Who would chose this, "The gay lifestyle". Sort of sounds whimsical, like a style of dress, beard no beard, social convention, trends, fashion. Being gay is not an Easter Bonnet. Its who a person is, the person can either accept it or not. Act on it or not. But change it like a wide lapelled polyester leisure suit, they cannot.

So thats the point here. Regardless of gay being nature or nuture or a combination, these men are not able to accept themselves being gay or even the possibility they may be, so they harm/or try to change those that do accept it. Hostility is not a my goal in anyway. Honesty and intent is.

Cheers

grant


Edited by 1lifenow (04/16/12 10:41 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling, again
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#393738 - 04/17/12 09:29 AM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
Bradley P Offline


Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 44
Loc: AR
Same old argument, it's so boring guys really. Can't we just agree to disagree?? Gaw, just stop for real. This is so the opposite of this site's purposes...go preach on your pedestal elsewhere.
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#393757 - 04/17/12 12:46 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 411
Loc: west coast
A place for discussions among male survivors about sexual identity and sexuality.

I read what you had to say bradley, so I re-read the purpose of this Forum.

I thought thats what i was discussing. my view is not from any pedistal, I read stuff that may be beneficial to other men struggling as I was. Thats all. Nothing more. Trying to maybe untangle out some of the confusing strings.

I lived a life so full of confussion, anquish and feeling that i was alone in my experience. Lost in a place that I could not seem to make sense from. Sexual identity was a huge issue for me, so i dont take it lightly. I guess what i am saying is if other guys are questioning there feelings and there is information out there that is helpful, why not share.

I wish I had know more about CSA and how it affects our sexuality. I may have saved myself and others a lot of pain.

If you have any ideas, please feel free to share them.

Btw , this is what you wrote previously

[i]I guess we'll see how safe it is in here for SSA convos with my post haha. Let me preface by saying the obvious: I'm not trying to offend. I just want to be honest with my feelings. Hopefully, everyone here (and I mean everyone) can post how they really feel without fear of a kind of persecution for coming in here from a different side of the coin.[/i]

So all I ask for the same thing you asked for, nothing more.
_________________________
The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

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#393766 - 04/17/12 01:42 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
Bradley P Offline


Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 44
Loc: AR
Touche!

Here's my thing. I wasn't referring only to you...I can't stand to hear ex-gay lingo as well. So to be fair, I really dislike reading about conversion therapy just as much as the next guy.

So, to concede, you are right. I apologize. I was venting my personal distaste for the gay/ex-gay debate discussion. I was being disrespectful. I could go into my reasons for disliking the discussion, but mainly I just hate stuff that incites argument, so I digress
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#393810 - 04/17/12 07:32 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
I read your post but I'm not interested in discussing this further. Honestly, you haven't written anything that I haven't read before, considered before, countered before and learned isn't true, for me, before.

I just find it a specious, weak argument to rely on a wavering older man as the basis for one's opinion. If that were the case, we could spend all day going back and forth looking for other's opinions that bolster each of our arguments.

There may be some scientific basis for orientation but maybe instead its just a start and what happens outside the womb maybe that much more important. How do you measure that and put it in a peer reviewed journal? You don't and since you can't, that is where the argument for many who have a horse in the race on orientation want the conversation to end. For me, that is just where it begins. That's the difference.


Edited by EdfromNYC (04/17/12 07:37 PM)
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#393880 - 04/18/12 04:13 AM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 411
Loc: west coast
Its ironic, I remember being hostile and mean to a kid in school that was gay, not sure why, just seemed like the right thing. I played sports, co-captained the basketball team, he did macrame' and fussed. I wish I could apologize. I bet he's not even gay, just good with knots. Well that and he was a snappy dresser.

The original article I sited helps explain that. 160 thats the number of college students in the study. 7 authors by researchers in 2 countries. It's not one man's opinion, and its not specious. Specious is when you dont even read the article, which is your perogative, but then dont comment on something you are not even privy to or clearly haven't the capacity to grasp.

Please provide if you will anything other than your opinion. This is not my opinion, its cogent reasoning based on controled observation that explains why Some men have heightened homophobia. Nothing more.

The article on the "ex-gay" study, was about the guy who wrote it saying his words had been misinterperted and taken out of context, he didnt change his mind, he said the "ex-gay" guys , the ones who can 'pray the gay away' are twisting his words for their own "horse race". And yes Mike Wallace who was old, did change his opinion because he felt his original premise that all homos are mentally ill perverts came from a place of ignorance. I never once said anything about after the womb or before. I have no idea where you got that.

When i showed my 17 year old son the study from the Journal of Psychology and we talked about it, he said, "no shit dad, you dont need to be a scientist to see that". Logic and rationality , that's the difference.
_________________________
The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

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#393884 - 04/18/12 05:47 AM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Deleted. I am disengaging.



Edited by EdfromNYC (04/18/12 11:08 AM)
_________________________
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Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
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#393957 - 04/18/12 07:47 PM . [Re: 1lifenow]
Life's A Dream Offline


Registered: 08/25/11
Posts: 886
Loc: Bouvet Island
.


Edited by Life's A Dream (01/12/13 10:56 PM)

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#394228 - 04/20/12 11:41 AM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/17/13 08:25 PM)
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#394661 - 04/23/12 09:46 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Some follow up for you on this story. It is much more accurate to me than the original story and from a reputable source and not journalistic in nature. It is a critique of Spitzer's sort-of "retraction" of his original interpretation of his original study that was peer reviewed and accepted when published unlike his sort-of "retraction".

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fetishes-i-dont-get/201204/how-ex-ex-gay-study
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#395565 - 04/30/12 04:35 AM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 411
Loc: west coast
I want to apologize if I get too technical sometimes, thats not my intent. My intent on this thread was to discuss how sometimes men including me, had in the past demonstrated outward anti-gay feelings to use it as a deflection shield. Sort of like wonderwomans guantlets( ironic huh?)

That was the main point, using some recent published info to corroborate, so just not about me spouting off.

Although it was a side note cuz of the timing in the news, It became partly about the 'retraction' of the EX-GAY stuff by its very author, a study used and held up as proof that bs works. I agree with Ed , the above article says for a retraction the author needs to submit in writing to the publishing journal, he has now submitted a letter to Mr. Zucker, managing editor.

Spitzer apologized to the gay community basically because he said he now sees the overwhelming critiques of his work were correct. He is not himself gay, he has no gay agenda or investment - in fact it takes the opposite to admit your mistakes.
1. There were no controls - thats just bad science and nothing more than enecdotal evidence( saying its so - no proof)

2. The persons reporting change could not be substantiated as it was a self report. 93% had attended this "therapy" for religious reasons, ( so likely saying it didnt work would not get you back in the front door - "IT'S A ...!"). 66% had been referred by ex-gay ministries.

3. IT MAKES NO SENSE cuz the original paper was trying to answer what do men undergoing this therapy say about how their orientation changes. NOT NOT NOT can their orientation change?, he admits there was no way to know. Somehow it got subverted to there is proof you can change orientation.
Having said that the article I quoted on HOMOPHOBIA used 4 different studies with more sofisticated techniques and found that these men who were often most homophobic had sexual attraction towards men.

So I am saying that it is time to put all this EX-GAY stuff away. It is not same old same old or "I have heard it before". THIS IS HUGE. NO MORE CO_OPTING SCIENCE for a particular bent.

There is no way to make the gay go away. You can not pray it, wish it, hope it, flagelate, drink, drug or otherwise stop it. You can only chose to either act on it or not. That's where the convenient " gay lifestyle " argument comes in. I have never heard of "hetersexual lifestyle", its your choice to be str8(you know. when you sign the agreement). Both are bullshit terms. So yes lets put it to rest, cuz finally despite any rational mind already knowing the argument was bs. It's time for bed. The barbarians are tired.

Ps please feel free Ed to post something about how what happens outside the womb can affect orientation. I happen to agree with that. But on this subject there is no equivocation, EX-GAY, like poor old "Poly" the bird in an old Monty Python skit is STONE DEAD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npjOSLCR2hE

Glad it helped Jeff

cheers

grant
_________________________
The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

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#395566 - 04/30/12 04:38 AM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 411
Loc: west coast
Spitzers full letter

Several months ago I told you that because of my revised view of my 2001 study of reparative therapy changing sexual orientation, I was considering writing something that would acknowledge that I now judged the major critiques of the study as largely correct. After discussing my revised view of the study with Gabriel Arana, a reporter for American Prospect, and with Malcolm Ritter, an Associated Press science writer, I decided that I had to make public my current thinking about the study. Here it is.

Basic Research Question. From the beginning it was: “can some version of reparative therapy enable individuals to change their sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual?” Realizing that the study design made it impossible to answer this question, I suggested that the study could be viewed as answering the question, “how do individuals undergoing reparative therapy describe changes in sexual orientation?” – a not very interesting question.

The Fatal Flaw in the Study – There was no way to judge the credibility of subject reports of change in sexual orientation. I offered several (unconvincing) reasons why it was reasonable to assume that the subject’s reports of change were credible and not self-deception or outright lying. But the simple fact is that there was no way to determine if the subject’s accounts of change were valid.

I believe I owe the gay community an apology for my study making unproven claims of the efficacy of reparative therapy. I also apologize to any gay person who wasted time and energy undergoing some form of reparative therapy because they believed that I had proven that reparative therapy works with some “highly motivated” individuals.

Robert Spitzer. M.D.
Emeritus Professor of Psychiatry,
Columbia University

_________________________
The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

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#395587 - 04/30/12 09:17 AM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
lapchinj Offline
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Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/17/13 08:29 PM)
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#395630 - 04/30/12 07:45 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Quote:
There is no way to make the gay go away. You can not pray it, wish it, hope it, flagelate, drink, drug or otherwise stop it. You can only chose to either act on it or not. That's where the convenient " gay lifestyle " argument comes in. I have never heard of "hetersexual lifestyle", its your choice to be str8(you know. when you sign the agreement). Both are bullshit terms. So yes lets put it to rest, cuz finally despite any rational mind already knowing the argument was bs. It's time for bed. The barbarians are tired.


I've read many, many, many, many angry posts like your posts over the years and posts like your posts where one person like you declares an issue dead. Its amusing to me.

For information's sake: gay went away for me but only through work and self-acceptance that it didn't matter to me either way.

I work with a gay therapist, I have friends who are gay in my daily life and I have friends who've dealt with unwanted SSA and no longer do. I have actual experience that you don't have. I know men who've "healed" their SSA because they wanted to and not via religion. For me, there are many paths to wholeness.

The science of studying sexual orientation and its malleability will go on even with your declaration that its over and with Spitzer's letter (that will simply be added to his study).

The reason that I don't engage further on point-by-point basis is I don't think in terms of either/or, black/white, right/wrong, us/them. Its fruitless to engage and really, really old to me. I also don't think in terms of ex-gay. I think in terms of SSA and whether you are comfortable with it or not. I also don't think in terms of changing orientation; I think of uncovering true orientation beneath the surface. So I'm not going to argue terminology that I am not behind but I respect the right to engage in that therapy for those who choose it.

I don't think you need to apologize for being technical. I think you might want to look at your tone, though.

Edit: Added some additional breakdowns of "studies" about homophobia and orientation and the complete lack of conclusiveness as posited above. Enough.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and...sexuality_.html


Edited by EdfromNYC (04/30/12 08:27 PM)
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#395634 - 04/30/12 08:51 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
I long ago removed myself from most of these discussions. I also am very hesitant to enter any discussions on SSA as I was not abused as a child or teen. I was an adult with a well established identity as a man who was gay.

I would like to simply say this though - I think we are talking two different things here. I do not use the term SSA in relation to me. I find the term to be a clinical one and think more in terms of those who were abused and are now left with this in their recovery.

Gay is gay folks. Period and all that there is. You cannot turn back gay and make a guy straight.

But if a man has been abused as a child or teen I think they could work through the SSA in their lives if they feel it is not their true sexuality. I am no expert on that but have talked to many men here who have done that in their lives.

It is all about respect for the other side and knowing one's recovery is not necessarily the other person's recovery. I find it tiresome when the debate goes into a personal one. Once and for all we need to see that we are talking two different topics here.

Without respect, and I am talking all sides, then the topic is really an ineffective one.


Daryl
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#395640 - 04/30/12 09:26 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: prisonerID]
EdfromNYC Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Quote:
Gay is gay folks. Period and all that there is. You cannot turn back gay and make a guy straight.


You can only make that statement for yourself. You have not lived in everyone else's shoes. Again with a declarative statement...

Its just like saying black is black and there is no variation in there. If you believe that, there are millions who will disagree on what "black" is.

To be clear: we don't agree that we are talking about two separate topics. There is no bright line. That would make it easier, that's for sure, but its not and that's why its studied endlessly.

My perspective is completely different than yours. I disagree with your way of looking at things. I'm not going to try to convince you that I'm right and you're wrong. That's for other people to do. I don't need to be right.

I will say this: I used to look at things similarly but I've had real life experiences that show me more than I thought I knew.







Edited by EdfromNYC (04/30/12 09:40 PM)
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#395641 - 04/30/12 09:45 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
Eddie,

I was simply trying to be respectful to both sides of of the discussion here. Apparently you only honed in on what you could readily disagree with.

Your sarcasm is noted. Arbiter? I was simply adding my own thoughts on this.

I see it as two separate topics. You are not the end all expert on all things gay either.

Your disrespect is quite apparent here. It is difficult to discuss things period with ones like you.


Daryl


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#395642 - 04/30/12 09:49 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
prisonerID Offline
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Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
smile
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#395649 - 04/30/12 10:08 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: prisonerID]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Its actually not sarcasm.

I will say this directly - you write about being avoiding discussing things like this and then you add your perspective anyway. Since I disagree with you, you sense sarcasm but it isn't there. You can accept that or not.

I chose the word "arbiter" precisely. I disagree that you get to say what gay is or isn't. If you sense sarcasm, that's not me. I'm very serious when I write that.

I keep saying I'm not the expert but since I disagree and write my perspective, somehow my writing of my perspective/opinion is me being an expert?

No, I have my experience and that of other men that I know. That doesn't make me an expert - just experienced in my experience.

And SSA is not due to CSA. I'm part of a group of men, hundreds, for a couple of years, dealing with SSA and a very small minority have been sexually abused. Men dealing with SSA is not CSA related (this is based on actual polling of the men involved). Its good men who are doing this, just like on here.

I'm not disrespectful. I'm honest and I disagree with you. I don't disrespect your opinion but I don't agree with it.

Its difficult to discuss things with someone like me because I don't see things the way you do and my guess is that's hard for you. That's all. Chances are good I probably won't see things your way so I would recommend not discussing this with me because you're going to tell me I'm disrespectful and sarcastic even if I'm not.

This topic makes people read into posts like no other.
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#395651 - 04/30/12 10:11 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: EdfromNYC]
nevragan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 907
Loc: NC
Let's all get together for a BIG group hug!

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#395653 - 04/30/12 10:26 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
Ed,

Come to me and not at me and I can discuss anything with you. You came at me and therefore I am not receptive to you. It is not based on your opinions but on your approach. Now you talk to me calmly but did not before. That is what I based my response to you on. I do regret my own taking of the low road though. I should not have done that in responding back to you the last time. But that is all I regret in my dealings with you.

Andy,

Thanks but no thanks. But nice try. smile

I am done. As I shared with Andy tonight did show me something that I am quite grateful for though.

Take care all.


Daryl
_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#395695 - 05/01/12 08:52 AM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: prisonerID]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Prisoner

I've had this same situation play out with you before.

When someone writes something declarative like
Quote:
Gay is gay folks. Period and all that there is.
well, that's not someone who is really open to conversation especially if you've read all the posts up to this point in the thread, IMO.

I will say that I reacted. I didn't attack, I reacted. There's a difference. Some reactions are stronger than others and that's where people think its personal attacks on them rather than disagreement with a concept that has been written and posted. I can attack your concept with counterpoints without attacking you. I think its hard to feel that difference or to write about a topic like this dispassionately. I think that is where a lot of "hurt" seems to occur.

I've worked a lot of stuff out on this board on this topic and I've seen other members do the same and then go back to old positions and then grow again and so on and so forth. Sexuality and orientation, in the arena of CSA or in general, is a hot button issue.

I will add my voice when I want regardless of whether anyone agrees with me or not or makes baseless accusations. I'm sensitive but not overly so and not to the point that I will stay quiet to ensure others' "safety" while negating my experience. I did enough of that in my life (but this is in no way equivalent to being quiet about having suffered sexual abuse).

No regrets here and no group hug needed. This board can handle all of us regardless of whether we agree on this or not.




Edited by EdfromNYC (05/01/12 10:00 AM)
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#395716 - 05/01/12 12:23 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
Sigh...
_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#395722 - 05/01/12 01:12 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: prisonerID]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Whatever that means...

You chose to get involved and feel put out.

I've seen it before and will hopefully not see it again or at least I'll see it coming next time.


Edited by EdfromNYC (05/01/12 01:14 PM)
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#395724 - 05/01/12 01:13 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
peroperic2009 Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 3617
Loc: South-East Europe
To make some constructive addition, I've never heard about SSA till 6 months ago. And when I've found it that was eureka moment for me. I recognized myself completely.
My own identical twin bro with almost same experience, completely same DNA and same environment find himself as part of gay community. Evidently we humans are very heterogeneous species and simple approach is not possible in these matters.

Regarding communication here, when I'm dragged in some situations bursting with some heavy emotions I have to look back trying to understand myself. Obviously some things have provoked me and there should be reason for that. Sometimes I'm successful to see clear picture connecting all in it and sometimes I'm not. I'm many times limited with my own experience, mixed feelings and short temper. Accepting my own limitation is very hard fight without end.
I just want to say that only by some self reflection I can go further from some point. It is not external but rather some inner conflict that brings my emotions out. Same is with homophobia, SSA, orientation and all other "hot" issues...
Pero
_________________________
My story

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#395738 - 05/01/12 04:02 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
Pero,

You make some good points here. I used to find myself very much emotionally drawn into these discussions. After some looking inside myself I saw why that was so. Now I am more at peace with myself and can simply let it be. That is the meaning behind my "sigh" instead of what someone might project upon it.


Daryl
_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#395739 - 05/01/12 04:55 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: peroperic2009]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Quote:
My own identical twin bro with almost same experience, completely same DNA and same environment find himself as part of gay community. Evidently we humans are very heterogeneous species and simple approach is not possible in these matters.


I agree its not simple and not black and white.

I'm glad that SSA clicked for you. It did for me too a few years back. I know that feeling of identification with naming feelings SSA.
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#395740 - 05/01/12 05:04 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: prisonerID]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
I just wanted to know why you wrote "sigh". Now I know.
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

Top
#395777 - 05/02/12 01:03 AM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1442
Wow - quite a lively discussion on a topic with a doubtful resolution.

I think it is worth considering that the words we read here are stripped of inflection and prosity - simply the way something is said or the stress on a particular word or syllable is enough to change the meaning (for example - the discussion earlier in the thread on the perception of attacking vs. responding). That said, I reread your posts, Ed, without passion and think I know where you are coming from. I don't see it as anti-gay, or even a straight-is-better-than-gay thing, but do correct me if I am wrong on that. I think you are saying that our fundamental orientation is sometimes different than the one we ourselves believe (eg. SSA issues). I would also guess that knife cuts both ways - someone who perceives themselves to be straight may actually be gay, and it would be equally appropriate to explore and embrace that if in fact that were the true orientation.

I would agree that sexual orientation is a multi-faceted beast. The experts can't even agree on the social and biologic ingredients that comprise the formula of gay or straight or bisexual. So I have little faith we will arrive at anything here beyond just creating heat from the friction of our arguments. Ultimately I think we all fill in the missing pieces with our true-to-gut experiences of what we know to be true for us - and that truth can be very different for everyone here. It can be dangerous to make blanket statements from those deeper truths, for they may not be true for others.

It's too bad there are so many hang-ups about sexuality. Where there are hangups, there is hypocrisy and subterfuge and even abuse. I know far too many men who are gay yet pretend to lead a straight life, and some who are so deeply in denial that they don't even know themselves what their true orientation is. Some are in such denial that they lash out against others who are not, and I have found some of the most vicious anti-gay rhetoric comes from those who are so desperate to define themselves as straight that their remonstration is an essential component to the scaffold of the orientation they prefer others to perceive them as.
_________________________
Eirik




Click my pic to see why I'm here

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#395800 - 05/02/12 08:34 AM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: Chase Eric]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Eric

I don't think straight is better and I'm not anti-gay. I think that there is currently a one-sidedness on this issue and I counter that when I see it.

I don't think any group gets to claim that they know the basis of orientation (i.e., right-wing Christians) and that treatment only goes in the direction of either acceptance or self-hate if there is no acceptance. Its not black and white.

There are a lot of hang-ups, in ALL communities because we are all people with the same fears and issues just being exhibited in different manifestations.

I avoid making blanket statements or "rules" about sexuality. I simply carve out room for alternatives to either complete acceptance of homosexuality or the alternate idea that if not acceptance, that equals self-hate.

That's the only reason I get involved in this - to counter one-sidedness mixed with the latest inconclusive science and a heaping side of agenda. I like to remind whoever wants to read that there are other ways of seeing this issue. That's it.

There is something else here. To voice my side of this issue, it is AUTOMATICALLY perceived as an attack ON THAT PERSON that happens over and over and over. It is simply not the case but I see a pattern of projection onto my words of some inner sense of rejection that these men feel and that they have an extremely difficult time of not taking things personally.

You said you read without passion. I have learned on here to generally do that with all posts. In my opinion, its an internet skill developed over time to not demonize the other and to not insinuate or call names and if I feel that urge, step away and do not hit "post".

Always glad to see you adding to the mix.

Ed
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

Top
#395804 - 05/02/12 08:41 AM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
peroperic2009 Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 3617
Loc: South-East Europe
Hey Ed,
you have great point here: "In my opinion, its an internet skill developed over time to not demonize the other and to not insinuate or call names and if I feel that urge, step away and do not hit "post"."
I hope that we all would find way to master that skill...

Pero
_________________________
My story

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#395819 - 05/02/12 11:37 AM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2503
Loc: Denver, CO
I remember hearing a story once about an older gentleman who got a letter from a nephew requesting money. The older gent couldn't read so he had a neighbor read it to him. The neighbor happened to be someone in a bitter divorce and family scandal. After the letter was read, the older guy said "That little snot - I'll never send him any money!" Couple weeks later he ran across the letter again and had a different neighbor read it - this time it was someone who had just had great news, had a good life, was feeling great. After the letter the old guy said "Hmm - must have had a change of heart, I'll send the money now".

My point (and opinion, of course) - when we read anything, it is flavored/colored/tainted/scented by our present mood or state of mind. At least I know that's true for me. So what I try to practice (emphasis on TRY) is if a post strikes me as an attack - I try to leave it alone for a couple days, read it again, read other's reactions if there are any - and see how I feel. 99% of the time I don't see it so much as an attack, rude, or cruel. Besides, regardless of how a post was intended - how I react is still up to me.... I think...

Now as stated earlier - if I could just master the skill...
_________________________
the story
    https://1in6.org/men/bristlecone/mark-krueger/

Kirkridge - October 2008
Alta - September 2012
Alta - September 2013

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#398700 - 05/29/12 02:50 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
bodyguard8367 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1159
Loc: ""
""


Edited by bodyguard8367 (02/26/14 06:03 PM)
Edit Reason: SILENCED

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#400112 - 06/11/12 11:51 AM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 411
Loc: west coast
Southern baptist pastor comes out and defends the pres on his support of gay equality and upholds the constitution. Saw this today:

These truths are self evident:

ALL men are created equal No greater words may have ever been written in the history of humanity.
The pastor further goes on to ask why so much lighting of ones own hair on fire, it will change nothing, it does not affect you, why does it bother you SO MUCH1
If you listen he implies exactly the point i was trying to make with this thread. YOU may have some issues yourself.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/06/11/vid...ge-endorsement/

There have been a few politicians not supporting LGBT equality cuz it would " shines a light" on them, and that was the last thing they wanted. A couple have come out. Often when not seeking re-election.

It is really great to see this whole is concept is now being supported by so many quarters.

Again its not to say al homophobia means your secretly gay, it doesnt. Sometimes as the pastor says its based on fear of the unknown. Just that so much disproportionate fuss raises so many questions. So when you hear this stuff, like Mr. Bachman, and so many more of that ilk. Perhaps we can now see that its really time for them to Look inward not out.
_________________________
The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

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#420312 - 12/28/12 02:15 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
SmartShadow Offline


Registered: 11/27/12
Posts: 135
Loc: Washington State
I have walked in my shoes quite some time now.

Much pain and much healing. I know nothing like this can ever be seen from only one vantage. Often when we find a path that holds answers, hope and validation we feal like we have found truth. And for us we have. If we wake up tomorrow and long for a new direction or purpose then we should be free to explore a new direction for ourselves. We, I think should also be free to say no to a dream if we are conflicted. Some choises are not that simple and alter our path forever. Fear and wisdom are good enught reason to give your self time to think, feal, grow and heal. As I have healed and matured I have become more free to decide what is right for myself. We, I think can agree that we are sexual creatures and that our sexual nature is a deeply woven part of who we uniquely are. My sexual idenity is part of me. I don't wanted to be labeled as gay, bi, straight, trans, right, wrong. I don't want some study to be used to label or define me. I am not polarized in this argument. If some ones inner being is truly trapped in there body and they can find some relief and healing in altering there body then who am I to say that's wrong? If some one wants to try a therapy to move them away from SSA, and repair something that they feal is in true conflict with who they are then I hope they find relief and healing as well. I think part of the fule that drives this debate is deep pain and yes a bunch of fear. That's ok with me as well. My conflict has not given me any real answers but it has help me to see others in a more accepting light and has helped me to look inward towards my own pain and needs. I think I have come to believe that being known and loved for who I am is very importanted. And not being sorted in to a category or being told this path is valid for you but that one is not. Or you need to accept this label and reality. Or this is not who you realy are it is just a distortion. I wish freedom for us all, even the freedom to disagree.

Freedom to be me,

Be free,

Heal,

Love,

Smart Shadow

Lets debate what love is sometime smile

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#420318 - 12/28/12 04:43 PM Re: Homophobia Is Close to Home [Re: 1lifenow]
SmartShadow Offline


Registered: 11/27/12
Posts: 135
Loc: Washington State
I realy wished I had not posted to this and brought it back to the top of the list.
Sorry I did not look at the date.

Sorry for any pain.

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